Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[Legat_Reo]

6 часов назад, [DE]Danielle сказал:

Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 

I have a bad sense about this. It bad, really bad to Saryn. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 minutes ago, FirstAidKittens said:

Also also, please make Saryn's "voice" sound hissy and inhuman, pretty please with extra please.) ❤️

They showcased Saryn before prime time. Her scream is similar to Valkyr.

[shyguyk]

Spores not being able to proc viral feels iffy. While it would be better vs grineer it wouldn't be vs infested and corpus.

Now once that armor is gone though, miasma is gonna be monstrous, as well as toxic lash on guns.

I don't know how i feel about venom dose being called venom dose when it actually gives corrosive though. What if i want a teammate to destroy corpus through shields? I can't allow that anymore with the augment change.

Everything else looks to be in good order besides those two gripes (and one is really just a preference)

[(PSN)Nurolkel]

I am excited to see the change, it's a different approach. The only thing I would want for saryn is with her upcoming armor buff, her molt should be replaced with a stronger defense ability. Something unique to her and nothing close to 95% damage reduction, as more enemies are infected with her spores she will get additional armor with buff from her second

Edited May 11, 2018 by (PS4)Nurolkel

[Morthal]

Just watched the Twitch stream for Saryn changes. Wanted to highlight the part where I prove the uselessness of Corrosive to Viral, in Saryn's Spore ability. Pay attention to how long it takes to strip armor compared to all the alternatives already in game.
 

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Morthal

[MunsuLight]

il y a 21 minutes, Cibyllae a dit :

Everyone keeps saying that viral is better because its effective against other factions, but lets not forget that the only faction that matters is grineer. Kuva Survivals and Onslaught modes, which have the only potential for needing such high damage output, as well as Hydron or Beherhynia, having corrosive over viral is better in all these situations because everything else dies to primary, secondary, and lets not forget memeing strike on melee. If spores still create toxin procs upon hitting an enemy if popped on an enemy with toxin procs, we'll see casting builds for saryn that are leagues above current casting builds. If not, everything about melee saryn is buffed, add in the ability to strip armor and memeing strike Saryn is going to be even more powerful.

What about the 4x Cp team ? So grineer are technically weaker than corpus in these cases ? Viral in 4XCp setup is king

Like I said multiples times in this thread.. This is gonna be a nerf for long endurance runners and coordinated team ..  Just go ask LifeOfRIo and other long endurance runners streamers what they think about this possible change..

For pubs.. sure this look nice against Grineer Corrupted... but Viral is still better against other faction and halving hp even on armored target is still pretty nice .

EDit : Low at the video just above me.. and see how long it takes to fully strip armor .. Is that really useful ?

Edited May 11, 2018 by MunsuLight

[Neightrix]

This looks extremely good! Most notably giving Molt the casting attribute of Iron Skin and applying Toxin Lash to all weapons are stellar decisions 👍

However, I do hope Spores have not lost their ability to transfer toxin DoT.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Neightrix

[ReDRoS]

il y a 3 minutes, Morthal a dit :

Just watched the Twitch stream for Saryn changes. Wanted to highlight the part where I prove the uselessness of Viral to Corrosive, in Saryn's Spore ability. Pay attention to how long it takes to strip armor compared to all the alternatives already in game.
 

 

I'm talking about this and say a very long time you just had to give miasma% withdrawal of armor and disputes to change but not to touch the virus

[CrazyPeopleInc]

Could you please keep Viral on Spores and Corrosive on Miasma (with the 50% stat chance scaling on power strength)?

Viral is what sets Saryn apart from every other Warframe. It's her ability to spread it on a global scale that makes her so much needed in endurance runs. Viral is what makes her viable on every enemy type.

The reasoning behind swapping Viral to Corrosive on Spores, I can never take as something acceptable. Why are you doing this? When there are niche Warframes and other ways made to do this? Mag, Oberon, 4x Corrosive Projection, Frost's Avalanche Augment, etc. Why are you removing the one way of effectively spreading Viral to the map? Corrosive, we can do that on a multitude of other ways more than applying Viral to a lot of enemies.

Keep the Viral on Spores. Move the scaling Corrosive back to Miasma.

[blacksage81]

2 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

You can't assume that people will just use this one weapon modded in this one way whenever they want to strip armor.

I never assumed anything. I used the mutalist cernos as an example. A fair amount of Saryn players that I've seen use a corrosive + blast Torid

[LuminousShot]

Okay, a rework to make her easier to understand. I can absolutely get behind that. It also looks promising from what I can tell. Kinda missed the presentation because I tuned in to the stream too late. So, sorry if I ask about something that was explained during the stream.

Let's wait with spores until the end.

1. Stat increase is nice. Recently I thought it's a bit of a shame that frames with healing capabilities usually have less armor because the armor mods we have aren't as good for EHP as other defensive mods for most frames, but the effective healing improvement is notable as long as you have good armor.
2. Molt still feels like it's missing some meat. It's now even more of a self buff than it was before. Assuming the invincibility phase is 3 seconds as with Rhino, that usually means it'll survive 6 seconds longer at best. Maybe I'm alone with that opinion, but I feel like molt shouldn't be an ability I cast to save my own skin and run away. Instead it could be a "totem" of sorts that lasts for a set (fairly short) duration, draws fire, and gives everyone some buff as long as they stay nearby.
3. Miasma sounds great. No complaints here. Only thing I want to ask is, does it reapply the viral status with each damage tick? It might turn out that the viral component is the only really effective part about this in sortie 3 situations or ESO, and extending the viral duration by means of modding ability duration would be nice.
4. I think the toxic lash changes hit the nail on the head, so to speak.
5. Spores... well, I can't give you much feedback because there are not nearly enough details. I guess I like that you changed it to corrosive. Primarily useful against grineer and corrupted, but a sensible change.
   1. Do they only pop from enemy death and toxic lash attacks?
      1. If no, is there a difference to popping them with toxic damage or not?
      2. Is the range still reduced when the enemies die, instead of popping the spores manually?
   2. Does the damage purely increase over time, or is there still a way to deal more by popping them manually?
   3. Is the limit of spores per enemy still 3?
   4. Maybe a bit late, but is popping still a thing, or do they just spread without disappearing and the only way to actually pop them is by recasting the ability, which makes all of them disappear?
      1. I didn't understand the part about 2x damage when recasting the ability. 2x of what? Surely not tick damage?
      2. How does recasting the ability work with the buff from the augment? If I try to buff an ally and slightly miss will that mean all my spores are gone? What if I want to detonate them, will my ally lose the buff early?

It would be great if you could update the spores section with more details because it's very unclear (to me at least) what you're really doing.

Other than that, I'm really excited to see what you've planned.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, GreyEnneract said:

Posting this after the changes were shown in action.
Wanted to assert again that my thoughts remain the same.

Also to add that Miasma's base range is too low if you plan on (still) not making it into a lingering cloud.
Spore's damage and scaling ramp up look good, hopefully it's not nerfed pre-emptively.

Molt still seems useless without its augment, as it doesn't force enemy aggro to it.
Making it a weak escape tool still even with the speed boost, Reb almost died multiple times in a simple Mot run.
Maybe have popped Spores heal Saryn a bit? Just a suggestion. 
Since currently you're trying to make her a tank caster more clearly, but her only way to heal is through an augment.
 

Miasma lingering for a duration seems pretty obvious. I wonder why they didn't go this direction... a lingering cloud that expands outward seems appropriate

[Darkvramp]

ok my problem with regenerative molt is that its not an augment, its just a buff, and not having on your Saryn even with these new changes, will be like playing with a gimped frame. Chnge it to be Instead an augmentative power to the power that does what an augment should, and changes the way you play with it. Instead of granting the regen to ONLY saryn, make the molt into a support turret. At base with the augment, it creates a regenerative field that not only regens you  for x seconds when you leave the area of effect, but it regens you while within it. casting spore(you can only cast it once on the molt) on this new molt support turret not only creates a place for spores to spread, but the area of the regen effect now also cleanses status. if you cast miasma with the regenerating molt out, you will destroy the molt, and cast not only miasma's damage wave, but a large heal based upon the hp of the molt(with powerstregth coming into play), within the range of miasma.

THIS is an augment, that plays into her strengths of inter connectivity, and CHANGES the way she plays.

[Nurmetya]

So after reading the proposed Changes and seeing it in action through the primetime tonight this rework screams bad, this is last attempt at "fixing" Ember bad. 

Some of the proposed changes are okay but a lot of it just bad. 

6 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

General Changes

• Increased Saryn’s Armor from 175 to 225 (at rank 30)
• Increased Saryn Prime’s Armor from 225 to 300 (at rank 30) 

This is okay you can do this it would be a welcomed change.

6 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage! What exactly does that mean? Essentially, Spore duration is determined by the enemies affected. As long as enemies are dying to Spores, they will spread.  As an added bonus, the longer your Spores deal damage, the more your damage output will grow. 

*Developer note: We really want to emphasize that this is experimental. With Spores we’re trying a couple new things that we’ve never done before, so we’ve entered new territory that is both exciting and a little scary: Infinite Duration and Infinite Escalating Damage. Both of these have had interesting and fun results under normal test play and conditions, but we are still testing and looking for edge situations that might require us to go back to the drawing board.

• Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 
• Increased Status Chance from 10% to 50%, also scaling with Power Strength.
• When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    
  • *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.   
• Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.
• A meter showing damage per tick and the number of affected enemies will be available in the UI to keep tabs on active Spores. 
• Venom Dose Augment Change: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive (was Toxin) damage to all attacks.
• Spores optimization! Under certain circumstances, Spores has been known to cause framerate issues in its current state. With the spreading nature of Spores in the rework, we’ve decreased the CPU burden which has made a noticeable change to the ability’s overall performance while active. There is still room for improvement but we’re fairly happy with the results so far!  

So spores duration and damage is going to be reliant on enemy density for it to be even remotely useful? Well that's good  if you only run Onslaught/Defense/Survival all day every day but makes it pretty much worthless everywhere else.  

Spores main use is to soften enemy health with Viral its useful against all factions barring Sentients, changing this to corrosive only makes it strong against Grineer, moderate against Infested and Corrupted, and worthless against Corpus. 

Spores already spread via enemy death as well as targeting them directly current methods of spread is fine leave it alone.

So its a one use cast? Casting again only pops whats there so now she can only cover one big crowd coming from one direction and not turn around to tag a second large group of enemies? This is a bad change Don't do this.

A screen meter? yay... more screen clutter. Don't do this.

Venom Dose? This should probably match spores actual damage type eh. So if its Viral, a player gets a free temporary viral damage type.

Optimization? Well since its a bit of a framerate and CPU pig by all means go ahead and optimize it.  

6 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Molt

Molt has classically been a great tool of deception and distraction, especially when in a bind and in need a quick escape to reposition. We wanted to retain this utility but improve on it so that it offered more reliable and robust cover options.   

• After casting, Saryn receives a movementary speed boost for a short duration.     
• Molt will now scale similar to Rhino’s Iron Skin - All the initial damage it takes in the first few seconds will make it stronger. Any damage it receives after that point will target the absorbed health (Damage absorbed will show in a buff indicator in the UI). Once it reaches 0, Molt explodes dealing Toxin damage to nearby enemies. 
• Improved FX changes to make her Molt cast more pronounced. 
• Her Regenerative Molt Augment remains the same! “Saryn regenerates health over a span of time after casting Molt.”

Since it would make Molt more useful in general go ahead with these.

6 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Toxic Lash

You’ve told us that having Toxic Lash limited to Melee was too restrictive and was simply not compatible with a broader variety of playstyles. So we’re sharing its Toxin with the lot of your Arsenal! Toxic Lash’s Toxin damage buff in Saryn’s revisit is now granted to ANY weapon in your Loadout (Primary, Secondary, and Melee). In maintaining its roots, the damage buff on Melee weapons is doubled. 

• With Toxic Lash active, your weapons will trigger Toxin Status Effect on any damage instance. 
• Increased the duration from 30 seconds to 45 seconds. 
• We’ve maintained Toxic Lash’s ability to spread Spores to nearby enemies by dealing damage while  active. 
• With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increase duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is no longer as Energy hungry as she used to be, so we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.   
• Contagion Cloud Augment change: Kills with Toxic Lash will leave behind a Toxin cloud. As an added bonus, Melee kills double the damage dealt by the cloud. 

I guess this is okay. I never noticed any energy restore with it though but then I also rarely had energy issues to boot.

6 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Miasma

We’ve taken what’s great about Miasma, and made it even better in the scope of Saryn’s 2.0 changes! 

• Changed Miasma’s damage type from Corrosive to Viral. 
  • *We've swapped Miasma and Spores damage types with one another since Spores in its 2.0 form allows for more than 1 proc per second.
• Miasma has a 100% guaranteed Viral Status Effect on damage tick. 
• Increased damage from 350 to 500. 
• Increased duration from 3 to 5 seconds. 
• Miasma inflicts double damage on targets affected by Spores. 
• When recasting on the same enemy it will refresh the tick duration and maintain the Viral Status Effect, but will not stun enemies a second time.

Leave the damage type as Corrosive, Changing this to Viral will only turn Saryn into a mash 4 frame. 

6 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Saryn Audio rework! 

As an added bonus, Saryn is also coming with a whole new set of sounds! This is what Jeff Hartling, Sound Designer, had to say about the changes to Saryn’s audio: 

“We are giving Saryn a “voice” when she casts (voiced by [DE]Danielle), which will add character and make her feel more connected to the abilities as you cast them. We really amped up the “poison” aspect of her sounds so that she feels more deadly in combat. In addition, we’ve remastered all of her sounds to have increased clarity and focus.”

Audio work is always welcome.

As Saryn is now all she needs is the odd tweak to be better this is something we players have been telling you since her last rework in 2015. 

[crackspider]

Wow so the fun saryn gameplay of managing your spores and keeping it spread with more casts is now replaced by camping in 1 spot to force enemies to clump up together to get te spores to spread, that is so bad because i can only see camping as a effective way to make her spores spread now. So you want me to max range? it has infinate duration so ill just drop that stat max range it is, i can even drop my strength aswell because the damage ramps up over time and killing enemies fast will be bad because then my spores wont spread as i need to keep enemies alive to spread it.

Like watching the stream and i learnt more about how her abilities and how they work then i ever did from the ingame description, maybe her "failing" to have a synergy is the lack of effort put into explaining her synergy to begin with.

Edited May 11, 2018 by crackspider

[(XBOX)D3L7A Z7R1K3]

Now if only we could take a look at nova, just here 1st doing nothing for damage. Other than that this rework seems good

[rune_me]

12 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Just watched the Twitch stream for Saryn changes. Wanted to highlight the part where I prove the uselessness of Corrosive to Viral, in Saryn's Spore ability. Pay attention to how long it takes to strip armor compared to all the alternatives already in game.
 

 

Okay, but it's against lvl 1000 heavy gunners. They are hardly a good unit of measurement for how effective some ability is.

[rune_me]

Just now, (XB1)D3L7A Z7R1K3 said:

Now if only we could take a look at nova, just here 1st doing nothing for damage. Other than that this rework seems good

Erh? It gives up to 90% damage reduction. It's a really, really good ability.

[Pyrus138]

I really love what you're doing with Saryn! However, 1 question I have is: Should you really seperate Molt and Spores? Could it not be a decrease in the amount of spores that can be cast onto Molt, or make it so that Molt can have Spores cast on it once per Molt (when cast, you can only use Spores on it once until you activate another Molt) ? 

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Pyrus138

[Nurmetya]

Just now, rune_me said:

Erh? It gives up to 90% damage reduction. It's a really, really good ability.

Its only 90% if none of the balls fly off to tickle something you lose a percentage of your damage reduction for each ball that flies off. 

[rune_me]

Just now, Nurmetya said:

Its only 90% if none of the balls fly off to tickle something you lose a percentage of your damage reduction for each ball that flies off. 

Yeah I know. On high range Nova it is a useless ability because of that. But on low range it is still super good (unless you use melee, then forget about it).

[MunsuLight]

il y a 3 minutes, Nurmetya a dit :

Its only 90% if none of the balls fly off to tickle something you lose a percentage of your damage reduction for each ball that flies off. 

Slowva isnt supposed to build for ranger right ?

But yeah for Speedva  And the "nuke" Nova build for range it is less good but  with strategic positionning you can still maintain a lot of your DR..

Edited May 11, 2018 by MunsuLight

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, --Q--Stryker said:

 

Yes it still does

tyvm.  read this after waking up from a nap.

[Cibyllae]

2 minutes ago, MunsuLight said:

What about the 4x Cp team ? So grineer are technically weaker than corpus in these cases ? Viral in 4XCp setup is king

Saryn as a component to an organized team versus Saryn as a complete warframe are two different discussions. As a component to an organized team she is becoming weaker because of the existence of CP. As a public queue frame she is becoming much stronger, and that debate will always be had on the forums for any warframe that receives changes. It exists for any game that has content which requires grouping. Viral +4CP > Corrosive + 4CP, so it is a nerf in that regard. And I think most people who have a good amount of playtime on Saryn are going to be okay with that.

[ReDRoS]

Il y a 6 heures, [DE]Danielle a dit :

 

 

spores virus 

miasm corrosion 

Corrosion is necessary only for high-level missions where people go to the assembled party with aggressive emissions or a magician, this dispute requires a virus, a virus, and for regular missions, this is better because it works for almost all mobs

miasm is not enough% removal protection or an increase in the duration of a tick for 0.5 seconds and the corrosive status

I always put Sarin on a level with Reno both on survivability and control and on boot Sarina gives the status of the virus by the arguments of Reno gives Roar % of the damage right away it turns out that something strange and not very useful to remove the protection can be Aura frames that were done for this (redone)
 in the rest all very much it is pleasant