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Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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28 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

Cmon, we all know it's a murder. Even ur programer say this.

Also, i see her Mot action... Spores doesn't spread at all. And you even can't recast it. Rebecca totally out of oxigen in 5 mins. Great performance.

P.S I love new definition of "scaling". You are do exactly same damage, but it slowly grows in time.

P.P.S. ALSO, can i remind you about Mag. You fix her Ult to give better CC. And now Saryn simply gives imun to every alive mob, if he survive after her ult. Amaizing.

Wow. I don't know why it never ceases to amaze me about peoples difficulty understanding mechanics in the game, and the lack of critical thinking that seems to come along with it.

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Why would you think that removing the interaction between 2 skills is equal to giving players more options?

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2 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Wow. I don't know why it never ceases to amaze me about peoples difficulty understanding mechanics in the game, and the lack of critical thinking that seems to come along with it.

Go read the abilites section of saryn ingame now and from what it says there explain the synergy that the 4 moves have. Using only what information they provide ingame.

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I was worried about DE touching Saryn. Usually "rework" translates to "death of this frame" most of the time. But overall, I'm actually impressed with what was shown on Prime Time. The main concern is changing Spores to viral, and I get what people are saying. While running Solo, you could just use viral on weapons and call it good while Spores is stripping armor. But Viral did help the whole team kill enemies faster due to the reduced health pool, except those that were covered in armor, which is why using a corrosive setup on weapons was beneficial to help with said armored units. But even then, this change from viral to corrosive for Saryn still benefits the team. As someone who enjoys endurance runs, I like what they are doing overall, but I understand the issue at the same time. Will Spores spread toxin dot when popped? Will Spores only be good for armor stripping and nothing else? If so, that weakens Saryn against most Corpus and Infested units. By all means, I get why it would benefit corrosive, because it needs time to ramp up and eat away the armor, unlike viral where all you need is one proc and call it a day. But I think that is the biggest concern here. If corrosive really is the way to go with spores, you guys at DE need to keep that infinite duration & infinite damage scaling, otherwise, Saryn wont last long in being relevant to the playerbase. This does sound good, especially for those who like to do endurance runs that go past sortie lvl (100). I'm just worried Pablo will decide to scrap the infinite duration and infinite damage scaling, and leave us with a useless ability that cant even do its job properly because it couldnt scale and fell off so quick, like Mag's armor stripping capabilities (not saying Polarize is usless, but its armor stripping cant scale). With Toxic Lash, I like it from what I read, but it sounds like it replaces the weapon's damage type to toxin only. Maybe I'm misinterpretating it though, hopefully. No complaints about Molt. Lastly Miasma, while the stun duration increase is nice, I feel it could be more, considering it depends on enemy animations in a way. Also, making it not able to stun the same enemies more than once is harsh. Finally, if this is gonna be viral based, does that mean spamming Miasma and burning through energy is gonna be how we spread viral through out the area to benefit the team? Hopefully not. Overall, its a great rework so far, but you understand if I'm still skeptical at the same time. Sorry for the long post. Just had to get this off my chest, in case you devs actually see this

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plz do not change spore, now is good enough.And if spore's range change from 16m to 20m is a great change i think

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9 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

RIP my Saryn...but it actually seems pretty fun. I'm just not so sure about the Viral to Corrosive Change on her Spores though

exactly, stripping armor is cool, but with corpus and infested this is mostly useless

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I'm not entirely sure about this, especially the damage type change of Spores and Miasma, the change to toxic lash not giving back energy on spore affected enemies AND that they might touch the spreading on kill. The combination of a "cheap" ability to reduce the hp pool of enemies in COMBINATION with a team full of corrosive projections, which btw. needs planning and doesn't happen by accident, was extremely powerful. But this only worked in teams that planned ahead which in 90% of the gae doesn't happen. I like synergies between frames like that, something that won't work UNLESS you plan ahead. This would defintely make Saryn more appealing for random play but for organised groups? I'm not so sure.

The spreading functionality has to stay, its called SPORES for a reason.

Changing the damage type of Spores might actually result in people needing to spam miasma ... which would be far more energy consuming. With her change to toxic lash my preferred playstyle in keeping miasma as last resort and relying on Spores + toxic lash for damage and energy efficency is basically broken. I'm really not sure if this is a good thing or bad, I love my Saryn been playing her more and more over the last 4months since all the new TennoCon skins arrived, PLEASE don't #*!% her over!

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so as a lot of people is saying, viral is good against all factions while corrosive not, her ulti wastes more energy and it would be not so useful as the actual saryn, the rest of the changes are good, but if you wanted to see people not spamming spores on molt just put a text saying viral doesn't stack, that's it.

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4 minutes ago, crackspider said:

Go read the abilites section of saryn ingame now and from what it says there explain the synergy that the 4 moves have. Using only what information they provide ingame.

Not testing out abilities and how they function together is on the player. Games have never needed to and should never have to explain interlocking mechanics what works on what.
Even crazier is that we are in the 21st century where we have wiki's, massive knowledge bases, tons of videos detailing things, and somehow no one wants to use them.
Games, for a time up till recently, have spent too much time hand holding players in an environment where they shouldn't have to.

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11 minutes ago, Darkncoldead said:

exactly, stripping armor is cool, but with corpus and infested this is mostly useless

And viral only halves their health once, its the toxin spread that makes it so effective against corpus.

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Sorru but what I read is a huge nerf DE. Either give her a cycling mechanism between corrosive toxin and viral damage types just like hystrix or don't even touch and swap em. Cuz we won't be able to recast spores multiple times and keep the disease spreading we should be able to have at least 3 different spore instances going on 3 different enemy groups or it is not good. What I see is that Saryn is just getting this nerf within the boundaries of ESO and rest of the regular gameplay is not even taken into consideration. 

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22 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Not testing out abilities and how they function together is on the player. Games have never needed to and should never have to explain interlocking mechanics what works on what.
Even crazier is that we are in the 21st century where we have wiki's, massive knowledge bases, tons of videos detailing things, and somehow no one wants to use them.
Games, for a time up till recently, have spent too much time hand holding players in an environment where they shouldn't have to.

Sorry but if there is an unnoted down synergy it should be added not everyone is supposed to be looking up onto the wiki or youtube this game has a desk named codex and it can be filled with info 

DE is at this point being like oh we do not make tutorials cuz ppl come n go so we focus on our vets and then when a nerf arrives the reason is being addressed upon new players being unaware of the synergies they have introduced in the past I didn't know about it either but I learned by mistake that I was able to cast spores on my molt. Just testing it out and stuff is ofc up to the player but this doesn't mean that not every newbie or every vet goes to simulacrum and tests stuff. 

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2 hours ago, TermiteFrame said:

We're going to ignore the fact that toxin damage ignores shields.

The toxin damage is there most of times. But you would find that a lot of high lv corpus and exlimus enemies are immune to toxin proc. Some of them are immune to toxin damage. The ospreys can even give toxin dot immunity to the enemies it links.

Again, viral+a gas or toxin damage weapon is very effective against corpus. Not just viral proc, but also the spores carry the toxin dot.

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I main Saryn and have played for years, so I am definitely interested in Saryn's 2.0

That said, I'm unwilling to be too excited about any of the ability changes yet because until I have time to play them I won't know if I will agree with you about the changes "feeling" better. I want to though! I love what I watched in the live stream today, and I have high hopes for a better "feel" with her ability synergy. 

I will definitely be all over the forums once I actually get to test the Sayrn 2.0 changes, and I will absolutely let you know what I think.

Finally, the only thing I can say with 100% certainty about these new changes is how amazing the new audio/visual effects are! It made my heart flutter with happiness seeing/hearing my beloved Saryn the way my mind always imagined 🖤💜💚

Edited by Fyrscha

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In general, I like the direction of the rework.  Here are my thoughts on the proposed changes:

 

  • Increased armor is always welcome, I think this is a positive change
  • Spore scaling automatically is good.  If you know how to spread toxin procs with spores, I don't think we'll see much change, but for players that either don't know how or don't have access to certain weapons to do so, this will make spore scaling more widely available.  I am concerned with the damage type being corrosive as the only choice.  I think it is good as the default as this will be a net gain in PUG groups where 4xCP is not usually seen.  However, I would welcome DE re-purposing the augment for this ability to change the damage type to viral; her current augment is virtually never used, and the flexibility to do viral instead of corrosive when you know you have armor stripping taken care of, or when you are going against another faction, would be nice to have the option.
  • Molt changes are good.  I would ask that the movement speed bonus be for parkour as well as sprint, since it is more common to bullet jump out of trouble than it is to just run.
  • Toxic lash changes are good.  I'll have to wait for numbers to make a final decision on how i feel about this (unless it's primary and secondary taking the current strength, and melee getting twice what it currently gets, which would be great).  It would be nice to exchange the blocking damage reduction for general damage reduction, since that aspect of the ability will remain highly underutilized.  
  • Miasma changes seem okay.  It would be nice if the area were repeatedly assaulted similar to Mag's Crush, where new mobs entering the area could get hit by ticks not just the initial cast.  

My only other thought at this time is that I would strongly ask DE to look into a storage / decay mechanic for spore damage.  There are many game modes where there is a pause in enemy waves (e.g., defense, interception, etc.) or transition to new rounds in ESO where you have to start ramping up all over again.  Additionally, even Pablo mentioned on stream that Saryn's design should not have her goals at odds with her team.  While clearly it would be overpowered for the spore current damage to permanently ramp, I fear the cases where a Saryn player gets frustrated because their team kills uninfected mobs which cause the current spores to die out and be forced to start over repeatedly.  

 

As a proposed middle ground, how about a mechanic where you do not lose the entirety of the stored spore damage when you get to 0 enemies affected (either because it ran its course, or was detonated manually).  Something with a decay function like losing 10% of the total value in the first second, then 9% in the second second, 8% in the third, and so on down to 1% in the 10th and beyond seconds.  In this case, the stored damage would decay by roughly half in about 8 seconds, then slowly lose the remaining half in another 47 seconds.  Players would have a strong incentive to not let the spores die out, but it wouldn't feel overly punitive if game mode mechanics or over-zealous team mates caused it to dissipate outside of your control.

Edited by Dolerhyde
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Was onslaught used to gather data to justify these changes?

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I'm a huge Saryn fan. Only frame I use more often is Oberon. Right now, my Saryn normally ends up doing 3rd place mission damage but 1st place in kills. Those Spores are vicious. I almost never use Toxic Lash or Miasma. Between Regenerative Molt, Rage & Hunter's Adrenaline, and Rejuvenate, I have unlimited health and energy. My Torid and the Pox spread my disease so virulently even Ebola would blush.

Escalating damage on Spores with unlimited duration means I can finally fully invest in Fleeting Expertise. Corrosive on Spores means that I have less modding to do against armored Infested.

Yes. YES. YES!

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26 minutes ago, Dolerhyde said:

In general, I like the direction of the rework.  Here are my thoughts on the proposed changes:

 

  • Increased armor is always welcome, I think this is a positive change
  • Spore scaling automatically is good.  If you know how to spread toxin procs with spores, I don't think we'll see much change, but for players that either don't know how or don't have access to certain weapons to do so, this will make spore scaling more widely available.  I am concerned with the damage type being corrosive as the only choice.  I think it is good as the default as this will be a net gain in PUG groups where 4xCP is not usually seen.  However, I would welcome DE re-purposing the augment for this ability to change the damage type to viral; her current augment is virtually never used, and the flexibility to do viral instead of corrosive when you know you have armor stripping taken care of, or when you are going against another faction, would be nice to have the option.
  • Molt changes are good.  I would ask that the movement speed bonus be for parkour as well as sprint, since it is more common to bullet jump out of trouble than it is to just run.
  • Toxic lash changes are good.  I'll have to wait for numbers to make a final decision on how i feel about this (unless it's primary and secondary taking the current strength, and melee getting twice what it currently gets, which would be great).  It would be nice to exchange the blocking damage reduction for general damage reduction, since that aspect of the ability will remain highly underutilized.  
  • Miasma changes seem okay.  It would be nice if the area were repeatedly assaulted similar to Mag's Crush, where new mobs entering the area could get hit by ticks not just the initial cast.  

My only other thought at this time is that I would strongly ask DE to look into a storage / decay mechanic for spore damage.  There are many game modes where there is a pause in enemy waves (e.g., defense, interception, etc.) or transition to new rounds in ESO where you have to start ramping up all over again.  Additionally, even Pablo mentioned on stream that Saryn's design should not have her goals at odds with her team.  While clearly it would be overpowered for the spore current damage to permanently ramp, I fear the cases where a Saryn player gets frustrated because their team kills uninfected mobs which cause the current spores to die out and be forced to start over repeatedly.  

 

As a proposed middle ground, how about a mechanic where you do not lose the entirety of the stored spore damage when you get to 0 enemies affected (either because it ran its course, or was detonated manually).  Something with a decay function like losing 10% of the total value in the first second, then 9% in the second second, 8% in the third, and so on down to 1% in the 10th and beyond seconds.  In this case, the stored damage would decay by roughly half in about 8 seconds, then slowly lose the remaining half in another 47 seconds.  Players would have a strong incentive to not let the spores die out, but it wouldn't feel overly punitive if game mode mechanics or over-zealous team mates caused it to dissipate outside of your control.

Sorry but I assume you don't get the point of this nerf. They removed the molt + spore combo cuz if an enemy dies beside your molt the last spore that holds the stacked damage number of your deadly spores would jump onto your molt as it is the closest surface to hold onto and you would keep the buff for forever. This is why it has been removed but you guys think it was because the spore turret. No why ppl use her 2nd is mainly because of regenerative molt augment. No one uses spores that way unless it's a defense. 

 

They don't want us to keep the endless damage cuz no molt combo neither they want it to last longer cuz corrosive keeps dealing damage unlike viral so spores don't remain on enemies for forever eventually there will be a time which your last spore pops on an enemy which is completely alone and you lose the damage number 

This is a nerf

Edited by Shidonia
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As a Saryn main myself, I'm intrigued by the possibilities in this rework. I do, however, have a few concerns.

 

Spores

I'm of mixed feelings on the damage change. While Corrosive really helps against enemies with armor, it doesn't hold much use against non-armor targets, of which nearly the entirety of two whole factions falls under. I like the duration and scaling. I'm really leery on recasts merely blowing up all my spores, since I'm typically recasting on groups of enemies buffered by unoccupied space outside any active infestation zones I've currently got running from earlier casts (if I'm having trouble aiming because there's numbers everywhere, I'm doing my job right!). HOWEVER if recasting detonated all spores with the current effects of popping a spore, while resetting the damage scaling to the minimal level, I'd be more amiable to that mechanic. I also want to see spores retain their ability to spread Toxic procs on afflicted enemies with similar mechanics to the current effect (or a more streamlined approach with similar function).

 

Molt

I like it. Truth be told, after I did some exploring on Spores and discovered I could make them far more effective without any reliance on Molt whatsoever, the only time I'd spore my Molt was to kill weak waves of defense quickly without having to target a specific enemy. Getting a boost to evade the fire you're dropping Molt for, while Molt absorbs damage to be more useful as the decoy bullet sponge-bomb it is, is fantastic.

 

Toxic Lash

I like this one too, but I'm concerned it could be abused with the right combinations of mods and weapon choice.

 

Miasma

This is the second one I'm most interested in seeing reworked. As I play right now, the only conditions I will ever use I Miasma is for a short stun to get out of a firefight going south, or to stun a crowd around a downed teammate for a safe revive. The higher damage and increased duration will help it behave like the AOE viral bomb it always seemed to thematically be (damage typing meshes well with the seeming intent as well), and if it maintains the doubling and doubling again for having specific procs running on affected targets, it'll only help it see more use.

 

A bit off topic with this thought with Miasma, but I was always a little disappointed that unlike it's name implies, it doesn't leave a lingering cloud of poison hanging around as area denial. I'd be interested if a future augment for Miasma would give it that sort of a secondary effect, maybe with a supplemental interaction with Spore-afflicted targets that venture into the cloud?

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Changes I like:

Simpler Spores. Considering Warframe is mostly a casual game, current Spores is unnecessarily complicated. Making the power more simple means more people will be interested in using Saryn and less threads titled "How does Spore work?" will show up in Players Helping Players (maybe).

Molt scaling. Obviously necessary and also nice. I think a temporary armor buff would have been better then a speed boost but I think speed will be somewhat useful as well.

Ranged Toxic Lash. I may finally start to use it again.

Miasma buffs. Too early to know if the buffs are actually meaningful but anything is better then the current one.

 

Changes I have mixed feelings about:

No more synergy between weapon damage and Spore damage. I feel the synergy is interesting because it adds a bit of complexity to how you choose and build your Saryn weapons. It allows you to use one weapon for Spores and another weapon for a different task, such as killing highly armored enemies. I'm also worried the base damage increase on Spores might not match the damage veteran players are able to add with our maxed out weapons. On the other hand, the synergy also restricts your weapon selection and new players who are using Saryn for the first time are sometimes harmed because of this.

- Scaling damage on Spores IF you don't recast it. Obviously this means you'll never want to recast it. And that means every Saryn build will probably be even more focused on Power Range. To the point where I'm imagining people will be able to scale the damage so much on endless missions that it will become a problem. Another possibility is that people simply won't be able to maintain the scaling and will be constantly forced to start from zero. Constant resets in scaling would be incredibly frustrating and could potentially put Saryn into a situation where if you drop the scaling too much you won't be able to recover from it. So as much as I like the idea of Spores scaling I'm not sure this is the right way to do it.

 

Changes I dislike:

- No more Viral procs on Spores. I think this is a bad idea because Viral is what allows Saryn to act as a debuffer. That gives you an option because even if you don't focus on damage Saryn can still help your team by reducing enemy health. With the changes Saryn will become yet another warframe that has to kill everything as quickly as possible in order to stay relevant. You're also exchanging a damage type that's focused on health for a damage type that is focused on armor. A lot more enemies have health then armor, so Viral is overall more useful then Corrosive.

- Can't cast Spores on Molt. I get it that people like to play the game without making an effort and that is not what the devs want. But some people use Molt as a starting point for Spores because sometimes your team is simply killing everything way too fast. You either cast it on Molt or you have to mash #1 and prey for a random eximus to not get oneshot so you can finally start doing your thing. Can't you just make it so that you can only cast Spores once on each Molt?

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25 minutes ago, (PS4)Zelgorath said:

I'm a huge Saryn fan. Only frame I use more often is Oberon. Right now, my Saryn normally ends up doing 3rd place mission damage but 1st place in kills. Those Spores are vicious. I almost never use Toxic Lash or Miasma. Between Regenerative Molt, Rage & Hunter's Adrenaline, and Rejuvenate, I have unlimited health and energy. My Torid and the Pox spread my disease so virulently even Ebola would blush.

Escalating damage on Spores with unlimited duration means I can finally fully invest in Fleeting Expertise. Corrosive on Spores means that I have less modding to do against armored Infested.

Yes. YES. YES!

corrosive on spores means that on corpus and infested it wont do that much

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This seems to me a good revisit but there are frames which much more needed to revisit. Anyway thankies it seems cool.

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I knew the developers didn't like front-loaded damage that kills low level enemies too easily over distances, and that's fine. However I would've appreciated the developers appeal to smarter players who liked the synergies and wanted more out of her potential melee-hybrid niche.

The melee buff is paltry, any frame that isn't Valkyr doesn't benefit from Steel Fiber compared to Guardian and Ultimatum arcanes.

The Spores change makes the ability more viable against armored enemies that are vulnerable to status like the common Grineer, but less effective against Corpus units. Spores is now neutral on Infested. Coordinated teams rely on Corrosive Projection or frames with wider removal options like Mag or Oberon, so Saryn might use the Corrosive procs on uncoordinated teams but she won't be useful on a focused team.

The Molt change doesn't address the deficiency Saryn had, which is scaling self-defense around herself. Stuns like Accelerant, Invisibility, or Damage Reduction are what people want. Front-loaded defense options like augmented armor such as Inaros' Scarabs or Rhino's Iron Skin are tolerable and fun for most content. Instead it got an evasion buff which doesn't enhance it much past the standard strategies of movement that any Warframe employs. Regenerative Molt ceases to function if the Molt dies prematurely, so this is an indirect fix to what should have already been fixed before: make the augment's duration not rely on whether Molt is still alive or not.

The Toxic Lash changes are a disappointment because I was anticipating the hopes of a Saryn melee hybrid with damage reduction. People like Warcry because of the attack speed, while the armor and enemy slow were happy little additional consequences. Since the armor boost applied to the sturdy Valkyr base armor, it was a comfortable way to melee. Volt's Speed is more comparable to Toxic Lash then and now, being a multi-tool that enhances guns and melee. It doesn't make melee or defense easier though, something attack speed and armor buffs tend to do.

The Contagion Cloud augment is still ineffective. Imagine if Atlas' summoned golems stood still, died within a few seconds, and only hit enemies who walked adjacently to the golem then stood there. That is the issue with stationary attack units--they rarely work because enemies won't walk into that tiny area then suddenly stay still there.

The Miasma changes are extremely disappointing, since the forced synergy made players opt for Spores instead of Miasma for general damage dealing. Miasma was useful for stuns, but now can't reliably stun effectively.

Her perception by players was a B grade frame that at best felt like a discount Nova, but felt like a B+ due to Spore damage. Nova still supports way better since her debuff on enemies works on health, armor, and shields along with 75% slow on most builds. Now Saryn is more like a B grade discount Mag, who strips armor and shields way quicker with instant damage nuke as well. Molt is still lame defensively. Toxic Lash didn't get the defensive buff we were hoping for and instead got generic toxin damage addition, which was what the Venom Dose augment gives to teammates anyway. Miasma was the minimal stun-tool Saryn had, but now she can't recast it as soon anymore.

TL;DR short of the above: the net result of the rework is a less destructive Saryn who is also less defensible against enemies. She can now remove armor. Players are still going to use Equinox, Mesa, Mag, and Ember for similar content. Saryn could have been an alternative melee frame like Atlas but that won't happen now. The fundamental issues with her augments still aren't addressed.

Edited by MechaKnight
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18 minutes ago, Shidonia said:

Sorry but I assume you don't get the point of this nerf. They removed the molt + spore combo cuz if an enemy dies beside your molt the last spore that holds the stacked damage number of your deadly spores would jump onto your molt as it is the closest surface to hold onto and you would keep the buff for forever. This is why it has been removed but you guys think it was because the spore turret. No why ppl use her 2nd is mainly because of regenerative molt augment. No one uses spores that way unless it's a defense. 

 

They don't want us to keep the endless damage cuz no molt combo neither they want it to last longer cuz corrosive keeps dealing damage unlike viral so spores don't remain on enemies for forever eventually there will be a time which your last spore pops on an enemy which is completely alone and you lose the damage number 

This is a nerf

Molt can't hold spores in this iteration of Saryn.  There would be no where to hold it besides nearby enemies.  I do understand that they want to get away from spores on molt, which I am completely behind.  I also think that their proposed solution is pretty elegant at being useful at all enemy levels without obliterating lower level enemies.  I was just making a suggestion to deal with a potential issue I see where Saryn is fighting against her group to spread spores at all costs, even if it means kiting enemies away from the group or rushing way ahead. Also, I would prefer to not see Saryn quickly fall off in certain mission types like endless relic runs with wave breaks.  

 

This is akin to Nidus wandering away from his group (and usually outside of affinity range) in order to stack his mutation.  It would great to avoid a similar situation where Saryn is most powerful away from the group where she can control the spore spreading without 'help' from teammates short circuiting the spreading. 

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