Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[ScudMcFox]

rhino died, nova died, trinity died, frost died, mag died, ember died, banshee died, and so on ... and now saryn died ... warframe was a game, where abilites makes fun and it wasnt only weapon based gaming ... now it does not matter what warframe u choose in battle, its only for cosmetics and optics ... if these horrible UI changes are online the whole game died completely ... rest in peace good old funny warframe  ... over 2000 h of gameplay only a waste of time ...

[Nauruin]

Honestly.....meh.

 

I mean, the changes suggested here are all fine.

But I was really hoping that Miasma would finally be overhauled.

Its still an incredibly boring skill in my eyes, I never use it.

 

Instant radial AoE damage just doesnt feel great to use. No targeting involved, no charge-up animation to take into account, the AoE doesnt even have to travel.

Just press button for damage. The only thing you need is some energy.

 

Comparing that to other frames with radials like Frost, Mag, Banshee, etc, that all have some "oomph" to their radials, it just feels bland and pointless.

 

Maybe one day that'll change 😛

[Xarteros]

As a Saryn main with 12 Saryns (9 primes), 15-20% playtime over about 3000 hours, I have to say I largely approve of these changes (or how they play out in my head at any rate)

However, I really think Miasma needs a new direction. It needs to be deployable as a cloud effect (perhaps akin to Snowglobe's 4X deployment system), or emanate in an area over time around Saryn. Having it be once-off damage has been redundant ever since her 4-spam nuking days. A lot of her role stems from her Viral procs, which function quite effectively as a damage multiplication tool in a party. I can applaud corrosive being the replacement, but if Miasma is going to become her Viral tool, I'd like if it gained a bit more versatility. It just needs something to be on par with other Ultimates, and currently I just don't find it useful enough in any situation.

 

[SyLilith]

Hello, I just read the rework and it sounds really cool and would probably change a lot about how we play Saryn, but while reading I was a little afraid of something.

 

Am 10.5.2018 um 20:00 schrieb [DE]Danielle:

When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    

• *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.

 

This. Espeicaly the chance that Spores just don't spread anymore. I think that would ruin Saryn's whole idea of this Ember like frame with a weaker start, but a stronger end. If the spores would just spread by you manualy using them on uninfected enemies would, in my opinion, make people stop using her, ot at least less regular.

I know why you would implement that, the new Spores seem very, very strong and having that spead to an endless amount of enemies would make it pretty ridiculous since you would:

1. Strip a whole room of enemies from their armor at once without shooting.

and 2. You would simultaneously kill every living being in said room.

Thinking about this would make Saryn mains drool, at least it would for me, but it really seems too strong.

But I thought about an idea to "fix" that, it would still make Saryn into the Ember like frame, it would also still make the Spore strong and it would increase her combo abilities.

My idea would be that Miasma doesn't "kill" the Spores in sake of dealing more damage, but to make it "pop" the Spores, so that they spread to the nearby enemies, just like it would if you pop them manualy. Of course this would mean that this is the only way to make Spores spread from one target to another, but it would synergies well with the damage type swap.

You would use Spores on one enemy, decide if the extra enegy for Miasma is worth using now and not later, when the Spores will deal more damage and maybe more enemies have come to you. Then you would eventualy use Miasma, pop the Spores to nearby enemies, strip the new enemies of half their healt due to Viral damage and of their armor due to Corrosive.

It would be very good in higher level missions like high Onslaught and endless survival, where these damage combos are very effective. But it would reduce her output in lower level missions, where Ember is usualy better anyway. But in higher level missions, where Ember is mainly good due to the stun on her Ultimate. 

 

But these are just my thoughts on the new Saryn and how I would try "fixing" the new Spores. The rest of her new kit seems very interesting, I personaly am a fan of the voice.

[Cibyllae]

2 hours ago, Xarteros said:

As a Saryn main with 12 Saryns (9 primes), 15-20% playtime over about 3000 hours, I have to say I largely approve of these changes (or how they play out in my head at any rate)

However, I really think Miasma needs a new direction. It needs to be deployable as a cloud effect (perhaps akin to Snowglobe's 4X deployment system), or emanate in an area over time around Saryn. Having it be once-off damage has been redundant ever since her 4-spam nuking days. A lot of her role stems from her Viral procs, which function quite effectively as a damage multiplication tool in a party. I can applaud corrosive being the replacement, but if Miasma is going to become her Viral tool, I'd like if it gained a bit more versatility. It just needs something to be on par with other Ultimates, and currently I just don't find it useful enough in any situation.

 

I think the only thing that disheartens me is that thematically she is shying away from that concept of:

"Unleashing disease and plague with contagious spores, Saryn spreads deadly viruses, lethal toxins, and caustic vapors that rapidly decompose enemies."

-WarframeWiki

Having her Miasma linger as a vapor cloud, even if it couldn't proc viral and just did viral damage, would be a really cool thematic add in. It seems like she is losing her identity as a Poisonous Flower with her spores now dealing corrosive. I like the changes mechanically, she's becoming more whole as a warframe mechanically. I think these positives are coming at the cost of her design concept and identity. I hope Pablo finds a way to tie in her identity as a Femme Fatale with his mechanical changes.

 

EDIT:

From Ballas on Saryn's Progenation:

"Margulis, from your winter ashes, there has sprung a field of flowers. Conceived by me, germinated for deadly purpose. You used to dream of old Earth, didn't you? Bathed in gold and solemn blue. I intend to reclaim it now, from the spores and the ruin. It came to me like a proverb: Fight poison with... poison. Cure this sick horde with the greatest of plagues.

I will call her... Saryn."

Edited May 12, 2018 by Cibyllae

[Braneman]

I'm not sure if I appreciate losing spores spreading toxin procs for them doing increasing amounts of corrosive damage. I'd rather they proc viral and then I use my toxic lash to pump an enemy full of toxin procs and then spread them around. With this new way Saryn isn't really a turret, you just build for max range and normal power strength and then go hide in a corner until everything dies rinse repeat. I'd rather the toxin proc spreading be brought more to the forefront so Saryn has to be actively attacking enemies to build up toxin procs and then spreading them.

[Shrak-aeon]

Okay, I'd immediately like to say that you should be very careful of what you do with that Toxic Lash buff, DE. We've seen what the Hystrix can do, by crit-stacking 100% toxin procs on enemies. It eats through high level enemies. Now imagine Saryn giving the Kohm that ability for example. She will be able to make any weapon in the game perform like the Hystrix's poison quills mode. And that secondary already mows down higher level enemies. Now we can make the Kohm, as stated above do the same. But also other examples such as the Ignis, the Amprex, Synapse, Phage, every other beam weapon ever, shotguns. All of these being able to deal ludicrous amounts of damage ticks at once. Now make them all apply toxin, and you've got yourself a lategame balance problem. Extra emphasis on melee is still existent though, and that's good.

I do not think that having Toxic Lash tied to melee is a bad thing, unlike so many other players apparently. It's strange that they're willing to complain about one ability on a frame being "restricted", even though it could be also used with the spore/molt spam build. We already have frames that are stuck to roles, despite them having many other options available. Players simply can't see or won't try them, such as an Ember damage amp support build which you've even graciously buffed as of late. Other frames that are really "stuck", would be ones such as Nyx, Vauban, even though he's got rather useful skills for mobile missions if played correctly. Atlas, let's admit that his number one is the primary crux of his gameplay, but the excellent rework on his dirt-y stare has made his gameplay much more than fun! Every nukeframe ever is "restricted" this way. Ash's kit spits on the face of gunplay and there's nothing wrong with that as he specializes in something. Valkyr also is nearly completely tied to melee. Excalibur is nowadays played with a single button without any complaints. And folk complain about ONE skill on Saryn. I agree, Lash could perhaps be better in SOME ways, but not in this one. (This of course is merely my own opinion.)

To me, Warframe always was about picking the right tools for the job, having fun while experimenting, or both. It's not a bad thing to have kits that synergize better with some styles of play. It makes things interesting. And they don't certainly need to adhere to either melee or gunplay at all. Nidus was a beautiful example of this. And as for other frames that focus on one aspect of gameplay and turn it into something fun, Harrow's entire kit revolves around precise gunplay, and makes it all the more pleasing. Hit kit is effectively LOCKED into using guns. Still no complaints.

Now for the ACTUAL opinions on the rest of the tune-up our resident lady of deadly cocktails and corrosive mixtures.

Spore is interesting to say the least. I can't say too much on it, except that I am looking forward to the changes and test them out on the field. Infinite spores sounds... delicious. The swap to corrosive damage while a bit "meh" on my end, can offer her a key role in high end play as someone who decimates armour, allowing team-comps to use something other than four corrosive projections. And while I liked the viral proc, I'd be a fool if I didn't agree that being able to spread the strongest elemental proc in the game with a cheap skill that automatically targets foes was a wee bit nasty.

Molt Changes are something that really are just quality of life. Nothing strange here, and it's a welcome addition.

Toxic Lash: See above. 

Miasma. Ah, this ought to be interesting. I'd actually hope that there'd be more synergy involving Miasma and spore in particular. Specifically, maybe have the spore spread Miasma to further targets as it pops? Regardless, having the same skill remain is still very nice. Viral is a bit iffy as a proc due to again, being the strongest one simply because of halving HP pools, and now she'll be doing it with all the juicy diseases and poisons that she's cooking up at the push of a button. Me likey.

Sounds? New SOUNDS!? Sign me the hell up! Oh and as another mention. You might want to change the augment to Toxic Lash somehow. The buff is nice, but the main reason the augment is not used is the damage, and doubling it on melee will still probably do nothing. I do not know, we shall see. Love the cloud effect, but it's just not worth the slot sadly.

Anyway. Apologies for the wall of text! I await the buffs with great interest! Ah, a pint of toxin to all of the other Saryn lovers out there! Cheers!

[(PSN)xSweep66]

As a dedicated Saryn main, some these changes are good, but come with a concealed nerf.

I see some other Saryn mains thinking these changes will be universally good. They won't be.

As it stands Saryn is a frame who already can scale infinitely. To do so requires an interactive play style and a bit of knowledge. Simply using Toxic Lash or a properly built spore popping weapon can achieve far more power than her new Spores will be capable of. I'm sorry, but waiting for a timer to tick up your damage will not give you stronger spores than the current method of interacting with them does. 

I love DE but this they are employing some cheap tricks here. Touting 100k ticks that are endless is hype without merit. Maybe in a test tube it'd be better, but in actual game play you will be constantly left behind trying to build a weak little culture that will fizzle out when it can finally develop enough power to kill trash mobs at higher levels. Then you'll need to start over. EDIT: Kuva Survival comes to mind, even if you can manage to get a great culture going, by design you will need to leave it behind and start a fresh one at the new life support station. At some point in the mission the spores will become a non factor. How well these new spores scale in these situations remains to be seen.

 

Our frame is going to become an armor stripping machine, sure, and press 4 to win. In other words, boring and not nearly as interactive as she currently is. 

 

Also, enemy spawn rates will prove to be the deciding factor for her new spore kit, especially in a team. I am extremely suspicious that the spores will function as little more than an armor stripping gimmick since they'll almost certainly not be maintainable.

She's not even going to support her team in any meaningful way outside of armor stripping (which is covered by other frames as well as CP). At least old Saryn has access to Viral, which is helpful for the entire team against any faction and doesn't overlap with other frames or team compositions.

Edited May 12, 2018 by (PS4)xSweep66

[MechaKnight]

Swapping the elements between Spores and Miasma sounds good at quick mention since Spores procs more often, versus Miasma which never procced but now will once for an element that only needs one proc. Spores chance of status proc scales with strength so if you use Overextended you'll need to compensate massively and it'll never feel the same, a similar issue for how Oberon's abilities scale their chances with strength so you lose more than just damage if you lose strength.

Molt was always extremely lame because it never gave direct defense, that's like telling Loki to use Decoy instead of invisibility. Atlas was the most underplayed frame by DE's stats, which makes sense being that he was initially built as a melee hybrid with inferior stats to Valkyr and relied on smart use of his wall and golems to protect him. The devs have underestimated how crowded rooms become with enemies, since unless you're camping you will be surrounded by enemies to a degree that no tiny wall and a couple of golems will deflect every attack. Nekros is most effectively with a massive crowd of spawns that are augmented to connect to him at a far distance, making the summoned units a viable defense despite being considerably far away from any of them. Atlas was given a new system of collecting rubble to empower him in long missions. Saryn just gets a tougher Molt and this arbitrary speed boost that effectively tells you the Molt is an inferior defense option so you may as well run away instead.

Toxic Lash could have been a game changer for Saryn to make her a fun melee hybrid, but alas since the developers want to kill overpowered infinitely stacking melee buffs it is a good hing this ability is no longer melee focus. I feel bad for people who liked infinite melee Warcry Valkyr.

Miasma got nerfed because even though they buffed the duration and damage, they removed a damage synergy with enemies who were hit by Molt, so as it is now if you release Miasma near enemies who are near Molt, they get hit with both abilities exploding and Miasma gets buffed on any enemy who was hit by the Molt.

And pro Saryn players carried toxin statuses via Spore but now that's effectively impossible.Now Spores only spreads after enemy death, which is unfortunate because if enemies are too far they won't ever get it. You can't recast anymore because if you do you destroy all the spores for pitiful damage.

Infinite duration and scaling damage has the cost of starting out with extremely weak damage, killing enemies has the cost of fewer targets to spread to, and scaling with strength means you can't use the mega-range mod Overextended without losing the one cool feature that helps Spores scale infinitely.

[Djego27]

Le 10/05/2018 à 20:00, [DE]Danielle a dit :

The following bullet points are cornerstones to her 2.0 form, and list what we intend to tackle from over 2 years worth of observations since her first revision:

Tackling Perplexing Synergies - Perplexing indeed. We feel Saryn's synergy as it stands follows a more forced than natural flow. We often found players confused as to why some things worked as they did, which lead to a guessing game of “bug or feature”. 

A new player having just acquired Saryn might not be fully aware of Spores’ interaction between Molt, Toxic Lash, and Miasma… and as an added layer, the interactions of those abilities with one another. Essentially, with Saryn you are given all the ingredients to mix up a cocktail, without really knowing if the ingredients are meant to mix in the first place.  

In 2.0, we aim to take the guessing out of the “what does what with what to make X happen?” and ultimately make her more sensible and intuitive to play. 

 

The issue is more that the frame is full of poorly documented mechanics. I am not against the throttle you put on the frame(as a "bug") because Saryns damage output at least at high levels feels fine. The issue is mostly that you leave next to everybody believe that certain mechanics do not work because of the bugs instead of using a constant and bug free spore toxic transfer mechanic build around your intended damage.

I do not believe people have a hard time to pick other synergies up, as soon as they are able to understand how the basics work(what in Saryns case is not really likely, like I shown in a few forum threads to people that doubt that the mechanics work at all).

Le 10/05/2018 à 20:00, [DE]Danielle a dit :

Tackling the “Spores Turret” - Shedding Molt and decorating it with Spores is fairly commonplace Saryn gameplay. We’ve noticed that this quick 1 - 2 step tends to result in a “set it and forget it” way of playing. We want players to feel more involved in Saryn’s poisonous grip over the enemy, while giving Spores and Molt more utility on their own.

The first step was removing the synergy to cast Spores on Molt. Distancing the two abilities gave us the start we needed to give them their very own unique and self-sufficient design. Now they perform independently of one another, giving Saryn more options in combat.  Details are listed below! 

Why not just double the spore spread range if you do that and do not apply more dots if the target already has spores. This would keep the mechanic to move around spores in a melee build(that has less range) or before having LOS intact while removing the undesired side effects as well.

Le 10/05/2018 à 20:00, [DE]Danielle a dit :

ABILITY CHANGES

Now for the nitty gritty! The following details Saryn’s abilities in their 2.0 revisited form. 

General Changes

• Increased Saryn’s Armor from 175 to 225 (at rank 30)
• Increased Saryn Prime’s Armor from 225 to 300 (at rank 30) 

 

Pointless. Fix enemy damage scaling by capping it at L80 and reduce tanks to something more reasonable like 200% EHP of a normal frame not 2000-10000%.

Le 10/05/2018 à 20:00, [DE]Danielle a dit :

Spores

 

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage! What exactly does that mean? Essentially, Spore duration is determined by the enemies affected. As long as enemies are dying to Spores, they will spread.  As an added bonus, the longer your Spores deal damage, the more your damage output will grow. 

*Developer note: We really want to emphasize that this is experimental. With Spores we’re trying a couple new things that we’ve never done before, so we’ve entered new territory that is both exciting and a little scary: Infinite Duration and Infinite Escalating Damage. Both of these have had interesting and fun results under normal test play and conditions, but we are still testing and looking for edge situations that might require us to go back to the drawing board.

• Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 
• Increased Status Chance from 10% to 50%, also scaling with Power Strength.
• When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    
  • *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.   
• Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.
• A meter showing damage per tick and the number of affected enemies will be available in the UI to keep tabs on active Spores. 
• Venom Dose Augment Change: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive (was Toxin) damage to all attacks.
• Spores optimization! Under certain circumstances, Spores has been known to cause framerate issues in its current state. With the spreading nature of Spores in the rework, we’ve decreased the CPU burden which has made a noticeable change to the ability’s overall performance while active. There is still room for improvement but we’re fairly happy with the results so far!  

 

Pointless. You do not need infinite duration spores, in a real application spores will die when you wipe maps, finish waves or waiting for re spawns after the toxic transfer worked and the map dies. Even a low duration spore is more then enught, given that you need to deplete and recast spores a lot with the current, kind of buggy, mechanic to get toxic transfers going.

Switching corrosive from miasma to spore is also kind of a team utility nerf and will not benefit your goal of making saryn halve way energy efficient. You basically force Saryn to cast a lot of miasma to keep the double damage bonus for everbody up instead of having it on Spore(that you use anyway for the toxic transfer mechanic). There is also nothing wrong with shooting the spores to spread them or the enemy did not spread them at death. Saryn did need throttling(given how broken your design was at the start) and given that the one hit mechanic only affects low levels(up to L80 ish) it is a good thing to keep rather then to "fix".

Saryn does not need "strip armor" build into spores, it would help a bit on her 4 but what really would help would be actually adding not boring FOTM weapons non stop but actually look at holes in the weapon line-up, like corrosive base damage weapons that allow for corrosive/gas or corrosive/toxin modding where Saryn really falls short atm.

Le 10/05/2018 à 20:00, [DE]Danielle a dit :

Molt

 

Molt has classically been a great tool of deception and distraction, especially when in a bind and in need a quick escape to reposition. We wanted to retain this utility but improve on it so that it offered more reliable and robust cover options.   

• After casting, Saryn receives a movementary speed boost for a short duration.     
• Molt will now scale similar to Rhino’s Iron Skin - All the initial damage it takes in the first few seconds will make it stronger. Any damage it receives after that point will target the absorbed health (Damage absorbed will show in a buff indicator in the UI). Once it reaches 0, Molt explodes dealing Toxin damage to nearby enemies. 
• Improved FX changes to make her Molt cast more pronounced. 
• Her Regenerative Molt Augment remains the same! “Saryn regenerates health over a span of time after casting Molt.”

 

Make it 10 hits scalable by power strength. Given how poorly the agro mechanic works on Molt as we speak you do not want to caste it in front of a enemy when you get shot, because this will consist till you die and then they will shoot the molt. It should be used more tactical like at the other side of a hallway to not get shot from behind or with spores in the centre of the map to keep spreading. The iron skin/snow globe mechanic only works if you want to get shot imidatly, what you certainly do not want with a dead Saryn next to a Molt that fails to draw agro from you to it.

What molt really needs is to draw reliable agro to it. If you can not implement that just transfer 50% of the damage Saryn takes while molt is up and within 15m(scalable by power range) to the molt, so it acts at least as a damage reduction to keep you alive.

Le 10/05/2018 à 20:00, [DE]Danielle a dit :

Toxic Lash

You’ve told us that having Toxic Lash limited to Melee was too restrictive and was simply not compatible with a broader variety of playstyles. So we’re sharing its Toxin with the lot of your Arsenal! Toxic Lash’s Toxin damage buff in Saryn’s revisit is now granted to ANY weapon in your Loadout (Primary, Secondary, and Melee). In maintaining its roots, the damage buff on Melee weapons is doubled. 

• With Toxic Lash active, your weapons will trigger Toxin Status Effect on any damage instance. 
• Increased the duration from 30 seconds to 45 seconds. 
• We’ve maintained Toxic Lash’s ability to spread Spores to nearby enemies by dealing damage while  active. 
• With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increase duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is no longer as Energy hungry as she used to be, so we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.   
• Contagion Cloud Augment change: Kills with Toxic Lash will leave behind a Toxin cloud. As an added bonus, Melee kills double the damage dealt by the cloud. 

 

Tell me why you did not address this in my or other people comments about 2 years ago? Also automatic toxin procs and spore pop with ranged weapons is stupid and should be only a feature of melee. You did not fix the energy issues, you just moved them around if you want the map wide viral proc.

The toxic clouds should scale with melee damage or enemy HP on death, given that in it's current form the mod is hardly useful for damage. Also the mod should remain melee only, everything else will lead just to broken results with high rof weapons.

Le 10/05/2018 à 20:00, [DE]Danielle a dit :

• Miasma

We’ve taken what’s great about Miasma, and made it even better in the scope of Saryn’s 2.0 changes! 

• Changed Miasma’s damage type from Corrosive to Viral. 
  • *We've swapped Miasma and Spores damage types with one another since Spores in its 2.0 form allows for more than 1 proc per second.
• Miasma has a 100% guaranteed Viral Status Effect on damage tick. 
• Increased damage from 350 to 500. 
• Increased duration from 3 to 5 seconds. 
• Miasma inflicts double damage on targets affected by Spores. 
• When recasting on the same enemy it will refresh the tick duration and maintain the Viral Status Effect, but will not stun enemies a second time.

Keep it corrosive and just give the ticks a chance to proc corrosive status.

Remove the damage and duration gain and keep it like it is, Miasma is fine for damage and putting up toxin an viral procs for full effect is a interesting mechanic in a otherwise by now fairly dull game.

No restun on a frame that has no other form of CC? You are approaching 2014 Ember territory here(because it was, let me laugh, "bugged"). Saryn needs a additional quick CC on spore(be it by a forced impact proc, I do not care, anything is better then hammering 4 every time you need CC at higher levels), not the removal of the only viable tool to stay alive at higher levels.

In general, fix Saryns Spore mechanic to be reliable and something a average player can understand instead of pure rng, enemy groups and weapon based map nuke ability, that most people doubt to even exist in the first place on the frame.

- Transfer 10% base HP worth of toxic proc on the unit if the unit has this amount of toxin dot on it(if the fully added stack value is high enught, if it exceeds that cap it at 10%, if it is less then transfer everything), reduce spores popped to 1 per hit(given that AOE removes them all) and add damage falloff, starting at 10m to no damage at 15m so you gain great damage against groups while not rolling over the hole spawn table on the map if rng rolls into your favour like this

- fix high level toxic eximus ancients being immune to toxic damage, this just as absurd as fire eximus on Ember given that it only punishes elemental frames that in the case of Saryn and Ember are some of the more balanced things you did in the game

- cap enemy scaling damage and reduce enemy accuracy to not act like aimbotting you over the hole map if solo\host, because this squeezes all the fun out of frames like Saryn and Ember at high levels if you take damage as soon as you are in LOS and have no CC up(again the miasma change is terrible)

Edited May 12, 2018 by Djego27

[blaes]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I watched the primetime and i thought i heard that they were being removed. Can you please time stamp where you heard this?

they explicitely state they remove the "carrying toxin proc" part

9 hours ago, blaes said:

No. rewatch the video. at 10m15s, he says something like "the one thing that we remove from this is that before it used to carry your toxin procs [blablablablabla], instead of relying on that damage being carried, we just increased the damage of spores, increased the damage of toxic lash, at least the melee portion, and basically removed that extra part there"

[(PSN)Onder6099]

I red the OP several times but I still can't get rid of the feeling that it's return to "press 4 to win".

[KnaveOfSwords]

Over-all, this sounds neat.

A couple of potential ideas with Molt:

 

1. With one of Molt's base effects being removal of statuses from Saryn (and Saryn's over-all affinity for statuses), I'd like to see Molt do a bit more with this.  Have it store and return status effects.  The least version of this would be having it keep whatever status effects the Saryn was suffering when it was cast and inflict them with the explosion at the end.  The more extreme version of this would be to have it also store up any status effects that enemies inflict on it (most-potent version has this applying for the entire duration, while a middle-ground might be having it only gain statuses while it's still gaining health) and give it a chance of inflicting statuses on enemies that damage it (these can, obviously, be mixed as desired).  For extra fun, Saryn/allies could also be allowed to add statuses to Molt rather than relying on enemies to give them.
2. As an alternative way of emphasizing Saryn's - an Molt's - connection to statuses, cause attacks on Molt to trigger a tick of any DoTs or other tick-having status effects (whether this takes from remaining duration or if it's extra ticks of whichever status).  This also gives back some of the spores synergy, as a heavy-gunner (or other high-RoF enemy) that shoots through the molt's entire health pool is going to end up with a spore that has grown far more than it otherwise would have in that time (and when it then spreads to everyone around them     ψ(｀∇´)ψ ).
3. I'd consider replacing the fixed duration on Molt with having its health decay over time.  So, where currently, max rank molt has a base duration of 40 seconds, under this system, it would instead lose 1% of its starting health (affected by power strength mods, but not by bonus health from incoming fire) every 0.4 seconds.  This still puts a molt cast in an empty room ending after 40 seconds, but if you manage to clear out enough of that "oh ****, too many enemies" that you needed it for by the time that initial health-buffing stage is over, it's got the potential to last longer (at least, if you don't do something else to end it prematurely), and getting hit by large numbers of enemies will still cause it to end early (potentially even more-so than currently).  May need to address interactions with healing powers like Bless or Renewal - Rejuvination should almost certainly not be allowed to work on Molt in this case, as the regenertion there could outpace the rate at which the molt is decaying.  Combined with the first idea, this gives some versatility in the role that Molt can perform.  High duration and low power strength (relying on that initial damage to give it health) gives you a molt with extremely long decay time (max duration and min strength would (assuming we're keeping the numbers for health and duration from the current version) mean a max-rank molt that's decaying at a rate of just under 100 health per minute), which gives it plenty of time to gain and inflict statuses when under fire, but means a very weak explosion there at the end.  Low duration/high strength molts, on the other hand, give much bigger explosions, but only provide a few seconds of cover and little time to pick up extra statuses.
4. Scaling the explosion damage based on either the bonus health that the molt gains, or on how much damage molt takes before exploding (if combining with the prior suggestion, the standard health decay should, obviously, not count for this).  Health is the more straight-forward idea here, giving the potential for massive(-ish) explosions if the molt takes enough fire during that initial period regardless of what triggers the detonation, while the latter gives lower damage if the molt is detonated early or manages to run out the clock without taking much damage (though in that case, it was unlikely to have many/any enemies in range anyway), or could go to even higher damages if the molt is healed and damaged again.

[Purity]

4 hours ago, Xarteros said:

As a Saryn main with 12 Saryns (9 primes), 15-20% playtime over about 3000 hours, I have to say I largely approve of these changes (or how they play out in my head at any rate)

However, I really think Miasma needs a new direction. It needs to be deployable as a cloud effect (perhaps akin to Snowglobe's 4X deployment system), or emanate in an area over time around Saryn. Having it be once-off damage has been redundant ever since her 4-spam nuking days. A lot of her role stems from her Viral procs, which function quite effectively as a damage multiplication tool in a party. I can applaud corrosive being the replacement, but if Miasma is going to become her Viral tool, I'd like if it gained a bit more versatility. It just needs something to be on par with other Ultimates, and currently I just don't find it useful enough in any situation.

 

Though I still hate the idea of corrosive, I definitely agree that 4 needs a lot of work, as viral is a proc that she has setting her self from the rest, I put some ideas for it earlier if you would want to check that out. I msan if they're not gonna do anything good with 4, they may as well leave 1 and 4 with yheir original procs. 

[csocso1232]

Overall sounds pretty promising but the spores recast sounds like it isn't worth it. Also it'll probably feel bad how after a while you'll lose your damage as your spores will kill too quick. 

What I think would be great for these problems is spores' recast "consuming" the poison. What I mean by that is you'd store a portion of spores' damage when you recast up to cap(maybe 500ish).

And this stored damage would be the starting point of the next cast of spores

Edited May 12, 2018 by csocso1232

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

Ok i am not ageed to this rework in some way. I understand why is rework is undergoing and i am agreeing to reason why, but i do not like the way it is done  at least the way it is presented so far. Lets talk about a bit shell we? This is my opinion about sarin, gameplay around her and it intended rework, so i do advise DE consider this further. Saryn is dps frame, her main ability is spore and miasma. Whole gameplay was based upon cast spores and pop them, so as dps you would cast molt and spores on it, or use it toxic lash to pop it with mele. You can pop spores with things like simulor, sonicor, hikou with explosive mod, torid etc. What i get so far is that you get some changes around it mechanic. (1) So spores so far got viral dmg but you will switch to corrosive, this remove the very basic about dps. To switch to corrosive is to strip their armor away, so if we take intended rework around spores they wont kill enemy, only take away their armor. If you do this than why have corrosive projetion aura? Have 3 or 4 of those in squad (most of players use CP aura) and enemy armor is reduced gratly, than i see no use of ''corrosive'' spores in gameplay. What i do propose in rework of this ability based on DE intended rework is switch to ''chromatic'' spores so status proc of weapon would affect them instead of corrosive, this would incorporate batter in my opinion to DE spore ability rework speaking in term of status nature proc of spores ( elemetal mods of weapons would affect while status proc would be scaled with power mods). (2) About Molt i do agree as rework is intended. (3)  About toxic lash ability i do agree in way, but base it as toggle ability much like nekros desecrate for example. It would have same as intended rework but of exception not have 2x dmg for mele weapons and increased ability duration. (4) Miasma rework is good i do agree with it. So if took DE rework so far in game would be something along lines of ''oh spores are spread all over map but look, no one is dead. Their t-shirts are gone.... '' Why 4 of us bring CP aura at all ?!'' So if you consider what i do propose is have spores spread and proc status nature of your weapons choosing, you wont have to recast toxic lash and pop spores with any of your weapon so you still get DPS basic of saryn, sure you will have to balance build after rework. But everything depends of how DE handle things. In short it would be more based on warframe gameplay rather than of spore turret so far. Corrosive is % removing their armor not their health, so weapons still kill them, but viral is reducing % of health every time it proc, eventualy it will kill them. Having 'chromatic' spore would cast some of elemental nature. If you use full cold it would freeze them, so if you use electric it would cc them as well, viral or any other proc of your chosing. 

Edited May 12, 2018 by -HoB-AngelofRevenge
/

[CrudShuzKong]

Do spores still transfer toxin procs and do the still apply the damage that popped them to all alffected enemies? The rework sounds super nice, but those are in my opinion the most important parts of the whole frame, so if they change or re removed i might lose my favorite warframe...

[(PSN)NapoleonTheSwagy]

These changes are looking very interesting, and as a Saryn main, they've got me quite excited, but also a bit worried. 

I'm liking all the changes, except for one detail, the Spore now being corrosive rather than Viral. Ask any Saryn player and they'll say the same, it's not a good change. first off, it doesn't make much sense thematically that disease spores are corroding away armor, but secondly and most importantly, Viral is a great element for spores as it debuffs the enemies and fills out a niche that I don't see in any other warframe, halving HP is incredibly useful in long survivals, add to that, that Viral is a universally useful element unlike corrosive as corrosive only has a use against Grineer. 

DE, I love the changes, but I am rather worried about that one detail. That is all. 

Anyway, thanks for your tireless work, and your perseverance even when the work can be a little thankless here on the forums. 

[blaes]

1 hour ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Do spores still transfer toxin procs and do the still apply the damage that popped them to all alffected enemies? The rework sounds super nice, but those are in my opinion the most important parts of the whole frame, so if they change or re removed i might lose my favorite warframe...

no, spores wont carry toxin procs with them when spreading.

[XxKarnessxX]

As a Saryn main I must say I like the changes to toxic lash and molt. The idea of switching spores to corrosive is a bit too much tho. Spores in general is fine as is so you guys are kinda doing the fixing whats not broken thing here. Casting spores on molt is fine as well. Molt attracts enemies and halves the cost of spores so of course it makes sense to put spores on molt if enemies are shooting at it while i gun down enemies and spread more spores elsewhere.

If you really want to turn it into corrosive and add all that low damage ticking up and infinite spores stuff then why not just put that in the form of an augment mod for the people who want to run Saryn as an armor stripper? Since warframes only have 4 skills, the playstyles will always be limited so make use of augment mods to add diversity into the warframes themselves.  

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Saying that the new spore mechanic is infinitely scaling is a bit disingenuous.  The new one capped it at 100k per tick and that's going to take a long time to ramp up.  The toxin damage spread from spores in the old iteration actually did scale to infinity and ignored shields.  In addition you could actively ramp it up using toxin damage on your weapons.

Saryn's my go-to frame when it comes to giving the middle finger to Corpus due to toxic procs spreading with spores.  And it was completely energy independent of Zenurik with Toxic Lash.  That's will be gone, dead and buried.

Why should I take Saryn over a Mag or other armor stripping frame or just slot in CP?  Halving every HP bar on the tileset with a cumulative toxic proc was unique to her identity and role within a team.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Do spores still transfer toxin procs and do the still apply the damage that popped them to all alffected enemies? The rework sounds super nice, but those are in my opinion the most important parts of the whole frame, so if they change or re removed i might lose my favorite warframe...

They are removing this feature of the ability. Probably my only gripe with this whole rework, as that would actually help these new additional features. That and Venom Dose being changed to corrosive

Edited May 12, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[SilverTama]

3 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Do spores still transfer toxin procs and do the still apply the damage that popped them to all alffected enemies? The rework sounds super nice, but those are in my opinion the most important parts of the whole frame, so if they change or re removed i might lose my favorite warframe...

i think spores transfering toxin procs is most funny and important for saryn and DE is probably going to delete this . Goodbye my sniper gas saryn

[Danjal777]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

They are removing this feature of the ability. Probably my only gripe with this whole rework, as that would actually help these new additional features. That and Venom Dose being changed to corrosive

Its a blessing in disguise.  Wouldn't you like to use something other than CP?  Maybe try something new?  The rate of these procs will destroy armor.

40 minutes ago, SilverTama said:

i think spores transfering toxin procs is most funny and important for saryn and DE is probably going to delete this . Goodbye my sniper gas saryn

Sorry buddy, you didn't say anything wrong. 😞 I don't think they will do anything to your post.  As for Saryn, you will find another way to enjoy her.

52 minutes ago, WarriorExo said:

Removing Viral from Spores will single handedly remove Saryn from the game.
Time to ask for a refund on all of my Saryn Tennogen and on even making Saryn Prime.

C'mon man, you're being a little dramatic here.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Just now, Danjal777 said:

Its a blessing in disguise.  Wouldn't you like to use something other than CP?  Maybe try something new?  The rate of these procs will destroy armor.

Sorry buddy, you didn't say anything wrong. 😞 I don't think they will do anything to your post.  As for Saryn, you will find another way to enjoy her.

C'mon man, you're being a little dramatic here.

I have no gripe about corrosive damage from viral, but removing the toxin proc carry is the only really bad decision. Look at my earlier post for an explanation.

I suggest many people to check this out.