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[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

spores do like no damage currently, they where showing 8k damage a tick with a really bad build when they showed it off 

Spores by itself? Yeah, sure. But that's not what the point the dude is trying to make. It does a S#&$-ton of damage when properly used, things like Blight procs will destroy whole rooms. Play her properly first, regardless of how many hours/xp you have, and then come back.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

spores do like no damage currently, they where showing 8k damage a tick with a really bad build when they showed it off 

casting spore on an enemy afflicted with toxin procs, then spreading those spores to other enemies, will carry the toxin procs as well. the whole point of the current spore implementation isn't the damage they do by themselves, it's the fact that they carry and spread the toxin procs from other sources (like your weapons). and that takes a few seconds to reach tens of thousands of damage. on the other hand, the new implementation will take several minutes and a lot of enemies infected to reach the same damage per tick.

and if you run out of enemies for any reason, you'll have to restart it from scratch. right now when that happens, the time necessary to regain relevant damage via toxin procs is counted in seconds. in the future, it will be minutes. for anything remotely high level, it's going to be a real pain.

Edited by blaes
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12 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Very good point. At first, i didn't notice the most crucial part of this, that the enemy died before the spore was spread. I had assumed that the spore spread before the energy died, but it appears this is not the case. I originally thought Rebecca had toxic lash up, which is why i thought the prior.

This may explain the reasoning for the reduced range, but even so, throughout the video, range still seems a bit off. I had to go frame by frame to detect the fact that the spore spread on death of the enemy and not by the attack of the weapon, which didn't 1 hit the enemy.

So if that's the exact reason for this instance, then spores range is not line of sight or reduced.

I am still hesitant to call the myth busted because throughout the rest of the gameplay, the range doesn't seem to match current stats. Even so, i knew about spore spreading on death at half range. This is common knowledge, so putting the information here in the workshop had me assume that there was something new with this mechanic as if they intended to have it spread at full range. Again, DE didn't specify anything.

It took a Primetime question to even get the information about the toxin carry. I still would like clarification by DE so that we don't start assuming anything.

For all we know, they may have halved overall range but let spores carry for full range on death. Otherwise, why mention it in the notes as "the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch." if it was there before the rework?

Still a very good point from you through, so thank you.

 

Nothing on you, my tone was towards the guy who red texted underlined "Please learn more about how Saryn works." I have nothing against you and whoever helped you do the work to figure out what was going on. By no means do I think Saryn is completely figured out, and I too would like Pablo to shed some light on the details of how Saryn works.

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On 2018-05-10 at 2:23 PM, Finedaible said:

That's a lot of changes to check out. One question though, will spores still transmit Toxin status procs from infected enemies upon popping a spore? 

It is hard to say but I believe it will. But they may not even be needed due to how spores now work.

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3 hours ago, blaes said:

the new implementation will take several minutes and a lot of enemies infected to reach the same damage per tick.

Actually if you play here right after rework and saw the beginning of prime time 207 then it will take seconds for more damage.

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Enemies killed will spread spores.

Alright so am I wrong that spores are damage hindered by armor? I mean once you see that Heavy Gunner at a little over half health you pop miasma and you know everything will die.

And yes furthermore if all is good, one Saryn on the team may make every Corrosive Projection worthless, that isn't a bad thing.

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14 minutes ago, (XB1)Evilpricetag said:

Enemies killed will spread spores.

Alright so am I wrong that spores are damage hindered by armor? I mean once you see that Heavy Gunner at a little over half health you pop miasma and you know everything will die.

And yes furthermore if all is good, one Saryn on the team may make every Corrosive Projection worthless, that isn't a bad thing.

the rework strips armor.... so no

current sayrn has armor issues, witch is y everyone brings 4 corrosive projections

people are syaing with 4 corrosive projections they r doing over 10k damage a tick currently and, with the rework they didn't even have the aura on and was solo vs levl 140s, and with the armoir started at 8k a tick, yes less ticks but thats with armor, and it ramps up the more enemies effected and they didnt even prock the enemy with any status before hand ether

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Two worries :

Corrosive seems like a downgrade from viral. We can already strip armour fairly easily, not to mention corrosive isn't useful against all factions, where as viral is. I guess I'll see,

Don't like the idea of saryn having a voice. Though I guess we'll see how it fits.

Otherwise, WOOT! One of my faves getting a shine, stoked.

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38 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

people are syaing with 4 corrosive projections they r doing over 10k damage a tick currently

No. No no no no no. currently, with 0 corrosive projection, in solo so 0 buff from anyone else, spore can spread 30k per tick in less than 10s by using weapon toxin procs, on lvl155 heavy gunners with all their armor.

and it's not just "people saying", it's affirmation backed with proof : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HSEqyMRk7M

when saryn stops zooming, you can see on the side groups (left and right) 30902 damage ticks spread by spores.

 

btw, i made a mistake (and no one corrected me) : it doesn't take 6 minutes for the new version to get to 2.5k damage per tick, but 1 minute (it starts at 6minutes in the prime time and reach 2.5k at 7minutes) so even if you go all out with 300% power strength and keep 30 enemies infected at all times it'll still take roughly 6 times as long as the kind of stuff we can do now. with a bit more conservative values (200% power strength with overextended, and 20 enemies constantly infected) you'll need about 2:30 to reach 30k per tick. 15 times longer than currently.

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

with the rework they didn't even have the aura on and was solo vs levl 140s, and with the armoir started at 8k a tick

please, please point to me when exactly in the prime time they started at 8k per tick from spore.

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14 minutes ago, blaes said:

No. No no no no no. currently, with 0 corrosive projection, in solo so 0 buff from anyone else, spore can spread 30k per tick in less than 10s by using weapon toxin procs, on lvl155 heavy gunners with all their armor.

and it's not just "people saying", it's affirmation backed with proof : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HSEqyMRk7M

when saryn stops zooming, you can see on the side groups (left and right) 30902 damage ticks spread by spores.

 

btw, i made a mistake (and no one corrected me) : it doesn't take 6 minutes for the new version to get to 2.5k damage per tick, but 1 minute (it starts at 6minutes in the prime time and reach 2.5k at 7minutes) so even if you go all out with 300% power strength and keep 30 enemies infected at all times it'll still take roughly 6 times as long as the kind of stuff we can do now. with a bit more conservative values (200% power strength with overextended, and 20 enemies constantly infected) you'll need about 2:30 to reach 30k per tick. 15 times longer than currently.

please, please point to me when exactly in the prime time they started at 8k per tick from spore.

Very thorough, thanks for the link on the video as well.

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5 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

Nothing on you, my tone was towards the guy who red texted underlined "Please learn more about how Saryn works." I have nothing against you and whoever helped you do the work to figure out what was going on. By no means do I think Saryn is completely figured out, and I too would like Pablo to shed some light on the details of how Saryn works.

Thank you. I was not offended but it's nice of you to clarify. I just noticed your point and you were the first to bring it up, so I thought I'd give you credit for bringing up a good point and add to it with some of my concerns beyond that post. I'm sure DE will clarify their intent before the rework ships, and if they don't we'l just post some more lol

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1 hour ago, blaes said:

No. No no no no no. currently, with 0 corrosive projection, in solo so 0 buff from anyone else, spore can spread 30k per tick in less than 10s by using weapon toxin procs, on lvl155 heavy gunners with all their armor.

and it's not just "people saying", it's affirmation backed with proof : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HSEqyMRk7M

when saryn stops zooming, you can see on the side groups (left and right) 30902 damage ticks spread by spores.

 

btw, i made a mistake (and no one corrected me) : it doesn't take 6 minutes for the new version to get to 2.5k damage per tick, but 1 minute (it starts at 6minutes in the prime time and reach 2.5k at 7minutes) so even if you go all out with 300% power strength and keep 30 enemies infected at all times it'll still take roughly 6 times as long as the kind of stuff we can do now. with a bit more conservative values (200% power strength with overextended, and 20 enemies constantly infected) you'll need about 2:30 to reach 30k per tick. 15 times longer than currently.

please, please point to me when exactly in the prime time they started at 8k per tick from spore.

Finally someone show this play style again, I’m glad.

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First of all i would like to say i am not against changes , but the reason for these changes are to stop high efficiency area of effect set ups. Due to this the intended outcome of the rework will ultimately fail due to the fact that AOE abilities and range mods exist , you simply can not stop this kind of play style without removing the base cause which is ranged mods and AOE abilities existing. Ultimately the big change to the saryn "turret" play style will determined not by ability power or synergy but how far / fast the spores can be spread or how far reaching miasma will be.

As the specific info for abilities base stats is yet to be released in full we can not come to an accurate conclusion about the power level and usefulness of the changes on a build specific level, but what we can do is look at how the mechanical changes and how that will change the overall play style.

The recast detonation is squarely aimed stopping the "turret" style of play builds. The big issue with this is that with the right group set up it is plausable that a single cast or using the augment to turn a friendly player into the the new "molt" and bursting the spores on them will to start a self sustaining , map wide plague that would require little or no input as the ability would propagate thanks to the unlimited duration to enemies as they spawn til the point where all enemies are simply one shot and the spores effectively will destroy all possible hosts. This sort of happening would be most likely on small maps like hydron or depending on scaling high strength / range builds. 

Toxic lash changes are mechanically solid but i am confused as to why you insist on holding to the melee damage bonuses. Melee weapons will actually benefit more than ranged weapons as this will allow for the addition of a 6th or 7th element to melee weapons running condition overload. Which if the proposed changes go ahead to the melee system will become the most powerful melee setup due to the access to red criticals being exclusively obtainable through combo based builds or high critical weapons with good riven disposition. 

Molt seems like a truly redundant ability now. With the proposed changes it has become a purely defensive ability but as a defensive ability is pretty poor. It does not crowd control enemies or provide consistent damage block / redirection like any of the other barrier abilities nor does it add an amount of damage reduction, be it through armour a flat percentage. Molt as a purely defensive ability also promotes a very static play style as to get any benefit from it you must remain near the it, which is counter productive for the intended purpose of the update, which is to promote a dynamic play style. 

The issue is see with miasma is that by trying to stop the current turret build you are just reverting saryn back to an even less interactive build. The issue faced with this ability is that with a long range and the ability guarantee viral procs, it is an innately powerful AoE. Depending on the final base stats and scaling miasma could very easily end up If not an optimal "turret" build ability, an at least passably effective one . Even as it stands with a 15 meter base it can be pushed out to a 42 meter AoE dealing 780 damage / sec. Combine this with a guaranteed viral proc and all you have achieved is instead of using molt / spores to AoE you now just stand there spamming miasma.

A far as changes that are really needed for saryn, the most important thing I think she needs is better, more detailed ability descriptions in game(this is true of many frames). A better defensive skill in place of molt, or a redesign that allows for a more mobile game play without opening her up to being randomly one shot because to having nothing other than her base toughness while not camped near her molt. Something like turning molt into a channelled ability that absorbs a percentage of incoming damage, after absorbing a set amount damage a skin is left behind that draws fire and eventually explodes spreading all three of the status effects on detention. Finally increase the potency of the interactions between spore and miasma and toxic slash while reducing the base effect of all three. Something as simple as a reducing both base damages by 50% on all the abilities but increasing their damage by 50% for each instance of viral , corrosive or toxin on the target.     

Ultimately I think the best way to fix the "turret" style of play you are currently trying to remove from the game is not through class re-balancing but by making the need for these sorts of builds redundant. The main reason most people, including myself, play these builds is that they have a limited amount of time that they can allocate to gaming. Tasks such as farming daily focus caps / levelling weapons and frames for MR or formaing simply can not be completed in a sensible time frame if done as part of "normal" gameplay, but can be done quickly if part of dedicated farm groups it takes < 10 min to level a weapon, < 20 min for a frame and < 30 min for the daily focus cap. These setups then leave me at least some time to go and play in content i actually want to do. On the flip side it can takes hours to level a frame solo, particularly if it is a frame that has no real offensive abilities. You may also be forced back to content that has no value to you simply due to the fact that you no longer have the survivability or damage output or into leeching from others to complete relevant or engaging content, both of which are not fun or engaging ways to play the game. As such people will try find the fastest way to get through the tasks so they can actually get back to playing the game for enjoyment. By reducing / removing the ability to efficiently make these type of builds you are actually harming diversity by promoting niche solo farm builds (stealth farmers etc.) and promoting a game play that is both monotonous and less engaging.

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On 2018-05-11 at 4:00 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

Increased damage from 350 to 500. *

  • *To enable Saryn to more reliably spread her 100% guaranteed Viral proc, we've increased Miasma's range! To compensate, we've returned Miasma's damage to its previous state, as more enemies can be inflicted by the Viral proc and the double damage bonus on those carrying Spores.

 

Any stats on range increase? Seems pretty good now, but we don't know what the change will be, I like to think its now 20m / 25m or something like that and not just an increase of 15m > 16m range.

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Saryn is fine. Fix vauban. He's underpowered and say is functioning in most areas at least. Saryn is my girl, but vauban is looking at buying Noose Prime if nearly every other cc frame outclassed him.

Or nyx, who got outskilled by loki with a disarm augment . Or zephyr could use another spitshine. Maybe make frost and limbo have less unfriendly bubbles? How about literally anything less functional? Valkyrs hysteria is still an awful stance with no flow or mobility.

Edited by Rankii
In has more to type.

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On 2018-05-10 at 8:38 PM, MrRagez said:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." 

If it ain't broke, you aren't trying hard enough 😉

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On 2018-05-10 at 11:38 AM, MrRagez said:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If this goes through I will be quitting this game. Saryn is one of my favorite frames. This is a nerf disguised as a rework.

For years Ive spent my hard earned money on this game because I supported the development, but I do not support this.

Quit ruining your game.

This is how I felt when they turned my favorite frame into a boring stationary de-buffer that can kill everything by standing still and can die in 1 hit from a level 30 enemy. I can't wait for her rework to drop. I will be able to play my favorite frame again without dying left-and-right or being told to stand there and spam Molt and Spores like a brain-dead tool.

If you leave, then perhaps you will be missed.

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i am pretty sure i will love this rework...though i will cry for days over the status change from viral to corossive on the spores

it takes so much utility away from saryn in late-game, but maybe because of the ramping up dmg she will now be a dmg frame rather then a utility  frame

will see how it feels when we finally get it

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2 hours ago, ZaviZao said:

i am pretty sure i will love this rework...though i will cry for days over the status change from viral to corossive on the spores

it takes so much utility away from saryn in late-game, but maybe because of the ramping up dmg she will now be a dmg frame rather then a utility  frame

will see how it feels when we finally get it

 She won't. By the time damage ramps up to a point where it would be useful you'll have just gotten over there and killed it yourself. This is a need, and anyone that thinks otherwise is brain dead at best and a blind idiot at worse.

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On 2018-05-14 at 10:21 PM, chaotea said:

 

Most likely its use based. Likely that despite any issues, titania is used alot / farmed for more. While syran if falling to the wayside.

Definitely not.. Lately with Onslaught she is used quite a lot as her spores are a good kill per second boost to whole team (viral status spreads around the zone - 2x less enemy hp, + more damage if using condition overload melee weapon) + transfering toxic damage on spore burst can kill quite many enemies herself. So she is one of most popular frames on onslaught as that game mode limits us to only a few warframes to keep up efficiency.

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Good deal, there'll be no more toxin dmg dots carried to other enemies, which was infinitely scaling since toxin dots stacks.

Miasma not only should deal more dmg to enemies affected by spores but extra damage if they also have toxin status on them

As per spores spreading so far what i got is :

1) The enemy dies and the spores spread

2) You shoot/melee hit an enemy with toxic lash active and the spores spread.

Question is : you pop / hit a spore WITHOUT killing the enemy and WITHOUT toxic lash active, what about in that case ? are the spores still spreading ?

Spores need to keep carrying toxin procs, they need to be able to be spread by popping them with or WITHOUT toxic lash active not only if the enemy dies.

Molt ALSO needs to grant Toxin status effect and not just deal toxin damage, again DE has been very vague about this little detail.

Molt needs a 100% Aggro factor so as the enemies target it no matter what and an increase in the explosion range would be very welcomed

make it on par with Miasma's range at the same modded range, miasma currently has a bigger one

Is casting molt still going to clear any status effect affecting saryn ? I missed any mention of that.

What was a staple in Saryn's kit aka applying a perma viral status on everything in range is being moved to a 4th ability

which should see its energy cost reduced if we gotta use that to even come close to achieve a viral status spread of those pre rework proportions

Not to mention viral DMG per se is MEH vs infested and corpuses ( since it doesn't bypass shields, does it ? ), and 100 base energy to apply a status effect makes me laugh. 

Owning my good old set of Arcane energize / running Zenurik  isn't a solution it's a band aid.

Spamming a viral ignis on toxic lash active ( lil example ) isn't a solution, it's another band aid.

Now despite all of this , i'm gonna probably contraddict myself and let you know i'm really curious and i can't wait to play the rework because all in all some changes really thrilled me ,although the no more toxin dots carriage kills it for me a little. We'll see lol

 

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1 hour ago, DjKaplis said:

Lately with Onslaught she is used quite a lot

Onslaught has only just come out. Likely its had DE look back at older frames and give them a pass. Yes, shes probably become more popular for this, but DE is likely trying to address that shes not used much for non hoard gamemodes. Where as whatever you feel for titania, she performs consistently through all modes.

 

Titania will definatly get looked at, but the current pattern is that older frames get revised, and new frames get about a month of watching and tweaking on release.

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Saryn was already revisited. This is just a nerf disguised a s a buff with intent of making her less viable for onsslaught.

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