Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

18 minutes ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

Evidence of multiple builds, like for high power strength to make Spores' Status Chance and Damage go up, or for high range to make their spread better, builds for making Lash do more damage, for efficiency and range to make Miasma better for Viral status spreading, testing on different factions in different mission types to see what damage or status works better in given settings... all of that, so far, has shown that as a Warframe... As a player-controlled character in this game, able to go into mission Solo or in a Co-operative Team, Saryn is better than she was.

Now, in the efforts of staying a little un-biased here, there are still things that people have doubts about. The Corrosive Status on Spores not being useful on a team with Corrosive Projection to strip off armour totally anyway, for example, that's not as much fun for them. But the scaling damage that makes those enemies all be at effectively half-health or even just flat-out dead by the time a player gets to them? That's still viable.

People have doubts about the spreading mechanics on Spores, about the actual effectiveness of Lash on non-melee weapons, about the cost of Miasma in return for what it actually does...

I genuinely think that after these initial 2 weeks of play-testing that we're all doing on her, DE will have fixed any actual bugs, and everything will have settled down. And Saryn is, and will continue to be, stronger than ever.

Quote from user Thaylien (I agree with the user so I shared this here)

i think that rework in general are supported but spores are kind of issue atm. so it that is tuned a bit i think the rewok could be lot batter. but cant point finger at any player becaouse we all use mechanic that game are provide us. usege and build are something that we are come up with, but there are some that copy-paste nuke  yt builds and go all over map spaming it. in any case i think that many will suport fine tune up of spores in term of spead, becaouse it is kind bad to not have spread to enemy who are behind wall 5m from last infected. it kind by pass them so no use from spores in any term. to me old spread sys was simple pop spores with something explosive or toxic lash, put good range 190+ and that is. but now you can encouter by pass instead of spread. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

[Seinra]

33 minutes ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

Evidence of multiple builds, like for high power strength to make Spores' Status Chance and Damage go up, or for high range to make their spread better, builds for making Lash do more damage, for efficiency and range to make Miasma better for Viral status spreading, testing on different factions in different mission types to see what damage or status works better in given settings... all of that, so far, has shown that as a Warframe... As a player-controlled character in this game, able to go into mission Solo or in a Co-operative Team, Saryn is better than she was.

Now, in the efforts of staying a little un-biased here, there are still things that people have doubts about. The Corrosive Status on Spores not being useful on a team with Corrosive Projection to strip off armour totally anyway, for example, that's not as much fun for them. But the scaling damage that makes those enemies all be at effectively half-health or even just flat-out dead by the time a player gets to them? That's still viable.

People have doubts about the spreading mechanics on Spores, about the actual effectiveness of Lash on non-melee weapons, about the cost of Miasma in return for what it actually does...

I genuinely think that after these initial 2 weeks of play-testing that we're all doing on her, DE will have fixed any actual bugs, and everything will have settled down. And Saryn is, and will continue to be, stronger than ever.

Quote from user Thaylien (I agree with the user so I shared this here)

But ofc man! Why do you think everyone was crying when Ember and the Banshee augment were nerfed? Because they lost their map cleaners! And why am I mad with this rework? Because DE turned Saryn's spores into a map cleaner with or without power strenght, you only need a few seconds to have spores scaling up to 1-3k of damage per tic, right now we don't need Miasma, Molt or Toxic Lash because you can spread spores with a shotgun to kill everything in open maps!  She is BORING, even with the Spin2Win you need to press more keys! And what if they fix the spread? Damn.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Seinra

[Evhel]

1 hour ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

while respecting ur opinion I don't dislike it. as I explained melee is combined with spore so she is more active play now. Now u can solo Elite OS ezly so I consider that nice. 

Well, EOS is the exeption, as there are infinite enemies that spawn endlessly. She is super in that particular map. But that's the problem: she is super in that particular map.  As for the rest of the game, she is, in my opinion again, not so good. And a rework that pushes a frame to a single and unique game mode is not a good one, imho.

1 hour ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

u needed to cast much more in old saryn. u actually had to cast all the time, now it is once in a while

I totally agree to this, spamming 1 was not a healthy playstyle. But the spread was very good, and i had the feeling my 1 was doing something. Which now i don't. It's like playing with 3 abilities for very little reward. Considering that 3 is click and forget and 2 is not interactive (good ability, but you don't want to spam it-unless you wanna go fast) it feels a little poor. 

Btw, i prefered the viral proc to the corrosive. Viral is much more versatile, it will affect every type of enemy, taking away half of the health. Corrosive is only good against Grineer.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

1 hour ago, Evhel.nVbs said:

Well, EOS is the exeption, as there are infinite enemies that spawn endlessly. She is super in that particular map. But that's the problem: she is super in that particular map.  As for the rest of the game, she is, in my opinion again, not so good. And a rework that pushes a frame to a single and unique game mode is not a good one, imho.

I totally agree to this, spamming 1 was not a healthy playstyle. But the spread was very good, and i had the feeling my 1 was doing something. Which now i don't. It's like playing with 3 abilities for very little reward. Considering that 3 is click and forget and 2 is not interactive (good ability, but you don't want to spam it-unless you wanna go fast) it feels a little poor. 

Btw, i prefered the viral proc to the corrosive. Viral is much more versatile, it will affect every type of enemy, taking away half of the health. Corrosive is only good against Grineer.

well sayed... hope that other players can see this and DE as well and can fine tune spores for batter spread. at this point they restricted use of saryn. as i stated, if there are any of equinox, banshie, ember in party your spores are ****** up. take any of mentioned in star chart with saryn, so think about spore spread as it is atm and you will see why. and agree on viral 100%

[Finedaible]

I will be calling this "Saryn revisited 2.0" as 'Saryn 3.0' for ease.

I have been playing with Saryn 3.0 and like her a lot, but I've come up with a few observations:

1. While her abilities work exceptionally well in Onslaught, she does not work as well outside this game mode. Teammate kills (and nukes) break the spore chain more often than they spread it (maximum range Saryn).

2. Her toolkit is not very good on highly mobile missions, only performing best for defense and other room-static gameplay.

3. I do like how interactive spreading the spores is through directed kills, however this leads into the problem in observation 1 with teammates breaking the chain.

4. Saryn does not play well with other Saryns. This is probably for the best to avoid insane game-breaking overpowered squads, but it feels kind of frustrating to compete for kills when you abilities need them to function.

5. I think changing spores' damage to corrosive is a great change, however they feel weaker against shielded enemies (Corpus) without the ability to spread toxin procs.

6. Spore detonation on recast makes large-map play a lot harder, but if it has to stay, i would suggest making it a one-cast action when targeting another enemy (detonate & cast new instance on targeted enemy) to make game play more fluid.

Overall, I would be sad to see current Saryn go if only in favor of Onslaught. There will need to be balance in there, but she is not the only meta warframe for this task. Please do not do any drastic changes based on a few youtube footages taken out of context. Saryn's lethality is largely dependant on map geometry at this point.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Finedaible

[Kalvorax]

5 hours ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

DE FOR GOD SAKE... Don't change saryn 3 again, u just reworked her now and I'm getting used to her. Really enjoying playing her. Stop changing so fast let me get what to do pls give her at least a year.😭

the main thing they did was buff it...the only nerf was to energy, but honestly...with the other changes it was fine with getting taken out.

[napei_]

Considering you've put in all this effort into Saryn, could you perhaps un-vault her prime so we can appreciate it, just for a lil' bit?

 

@[DE]Rebecca

[Lorechill]

Wouldn't a flat 3-second stealth after casting molt be more versatile and immersive rather than the speed buff?  A stealth molt would give us time to actually go in for that toxin buffed melee kill with all the stealth multipliers and spore spreading goodness that melee provides or plan a quick escape or reposition. It's much more tactical imo.

[NezuHimeSama]

45 minutes ago, Lorechill said:

Wouldn't a flat 3-second stealth after casting molt be more versatile and immersive rather than the speed buff?  A stealth molt would give us time to actually go in for that toxin buffed melee kill with all the stealth multipliers and spore spreading goodness that melee provides or plan a quick escape or reposition. It's much more tactical imo.

Then you just recast molt for stealth Saryn.

Having it reduce hate as well as the speed buff(which should also apply to parkour) would be nice though.

[(PSN)willitical]

hurry up and land on console, i want my saryn rework please, oh and please don't nerf her, shes perfect the way she will be 

 

[Wildcardgsx]

I see one thing wrong with this Saryn Rework, Spore is no longer castable on Molt!

This is just wrong why would you remove that?!

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

7 hours ago, Finedaible said:

I will be calling this "Saryn revisited 2.0" as 'Saryn 3.0' for ease.

I have been playing with Saryn 3.0 and like her a lot, but I've come up with a few observations:

1. While her abilities work exceptionally well in Onslaught, she does not work as well outside this game mode. Teammate kills (and nukes) break the spore chain more often than they spread it (maximum range Saryn).

2. Her toolkit is not very good on highly mobile missions, only performing best for defense and other room-static gameplay.

3. I do like how interactive spreading the spores is through directed kills, however this leads into the problem in observation 1 with teammates breaking the chain.

4. Saryn does not play well with other Saryns. This is probably for the best to avoid insane game-breaking overpowered squads, but it feels kind of frustrating to compete for kills when you abilities need them to function.

5. I think changing spores' damage to corrosive is a great change, however they feel weaker against shielded enemies (Corpus) without the ability to spread toxin procs.

6. Spore detonation on recast makes large-map play a lot harder, but if it has to stay, i would suggest making it a one-cast action when targeting another enemy (detonate & cast new instance on targeted enemy) to make game play more fluid.

Overall, I would be sad to see current Saryn go if only in favor of Onslaught. There will need to be balance in there, but she is not the only meta warframe for this task. Please do not do any drastic changes based on a few youtube footages taken out of context. Saryn's lethality is largely dependant on map geometry at this point.

you did explain this very good. i do disslike curret spread and detonation and how they function on corpus. takin spores test of oes and choose best video to show how good spread is is not hard evidence. take trough star chart  missions and you will prob get some nuke frame than she is no good (encounter some spore simply by pass enemy which are behind wall 5-10m from last infected). old spores was batter cast and pop them, no think on detonation, dmg ramp up they do all job and was recastable. viral or gas is lot more versitable than corrosive on spores since we have many mechanic of remove armor so i think this is wrong call. and saryn had more uses in various missions and was on paralel with other nuke frame in her own way also less dependable considering many factors. for the record that nuke spore spam was good for focus farm and dps for your friends to lvl up. now i cant do that as well. so we ended with lot invested frame which is good just for 2 type of thing in game. players can say what they want but this is spore nerf. 

[(PSN)Riven_Lupus]

As a extensive user of Saryn, I'm not liking the comments about the current state of my main toxic girl. I'm willing to give this rework a try, but I will make my opinion heard when I've got enough information to really have one myself.

Though from what I've seen so far, it seems like my personal playstyle of Sporing an enemy, then using a Toxic or Gas weapon to start ramping and spreading my spores while I'm going around has literally just been shot out of the sky and sat on by Vay Hek's cancer-ridden, half bionic posterior.

[NezuHimeSama]

4 hours ago, Wildcardgsx said:

I see one thing wrong with this Saryn Rework, Spore is no longer castable on Molt!

This is just wrong why would you remove that?!

Because people would sit in one place and cast spores on molt to pop them all over the map.

imo, it should be allowed, but the spores should only be popable by enemies and shouldn't spread from recasting molt.

[IfritKajiTora]

SARYN revisited 2.1

To not change too much. Spore damage indicator shows the damage you deal when detonating them, not the damage spores do.

1.Spores deals only 5% damage per second the indicator shows (20 times lower). If they spores chain ends all gathered damage is stored not removed. If player detonates the spores, spores lose half of the damage stored. Meaning that detonating spores now will be good. Spore damage should be capped at 10K (5% from it is 500 damage per second for spores).  Spores can be recasted to another enemies, detonating spores happens by holding "1" (spore ability button). To fix overextended builds being the only real meta, spores should have possibility to spread only to NEW 5 nearest targets (not affected by power strength), meaning that one spore hit will bring maximum of 5 new infected enemies. Overextended builds will be just a nice option. To fix two or three saryn in groups blocking each others, the different saryn spores should replace one  of the three spores on each enemy, so all three saryns can spread spores with no problems and they will deal average their damage [(spores+spores+spores) / 3 = average] 

2.Molt on detonating add gathered damage to spores counter. Dealing gas damage and have 100% gas status.

3.Toxic Lash stay's the same.

4.Miasma - At first hit after applying Viral status, Miasma deals 100% damage that spores have gathered to all targets, spores are detonated (meaning that targets affected by spores gets double gathered damage). After detonating spores, stored damage is halved.

What the change bring:
1. Spores no longer deals massive damage, without detonating them. Spores damage can be stored, not losing them if all spores disappear. 
4.After built damage in spores, player can use Miasma to convert that damage into miasma damage dealing 100% damage and double damage to enemies that have spores.

Miasma is the main ability to deal the damage.
Spores are for building damage for miasma and removing armor.
 

Edited May 21, 2018 by IfritKajiTora

[TPtv]

This Revisited failed. At the very least, Spores should roll back.

[kusanagikyo]

You all said this revisited work well in eso. But i think the old one work better. You only need to cast spore to target and shot with high status chance gas weapon and it will melt faster than this. And if they tanky enough shot it more to stack gas damage then cast spore and shot again it will do even more damage than have to wait for the damage to ramp up like now. Before 1 shot of my javlok already do 10k gas damage per tick and spore will spread 5k damage already. And best part is you dont have to wait for the stupid ramp up again when you move to new map. But i do agreed that the cast spore on molt is lazy.

[MangoSlic3]

so my 2 cents on this... Saryn is awesome, the rework is awesome. Much more interactive and fun than her previous version. however my only issue is the spores damage ramps up too quickly, if you are gonna re re rework her, i hope you guys keep her the same as now but maybe slow down the spores scaling damage. other than that 10/10 on the rework

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

7 minutes ago, kusanagikyo said:

You all said this revisited work well in eso. But i think the old one work better. You only need to cast spore to target and shot with high status chance gas weapon and it will melt faster than this. And if they tanky enough shot it more to stack gas damage then cast spore and shot again it will do even more damage than have to wait for the damage to ramp up like now. Before 1 shot of my javlok already do 10k gas damage per tick and spore will spread 5k damage already. And best part is you dont have to wait for the stupid ramp up again when you move to new map. But i do agreed that the cast spore on molt is lazy.

TY for bring this up, many are stating that this whole spore is good and much batter while i find it not. spore it self was much batter b4 rewok, other ability i do like how they reworked it.

Edited May 21, 2018 by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

[low1991]

Saryn' Spore spreading hit FPS hard when there's 200+ infested (tested in simcuram w 20 rock golem on last phase).

[DtHouse]

Bah, personally i don't know why the peoples are complain about the spore now. Finally saryn can build damage and help the team on wave mission and you guys are asking again for a rework or a reduce spore damage?

[Cibyllae]

 

[Purity]

1 hour ago, DtHouse said:

Bah, personally i don't know why the peoples are complain about the spore now. Finally saryn can build damage and help the team on wave mission and you guys are asking again for a rework or a reduce spore damage?

Bruh. Spore is the must usless S#&$ during team play now in comparison. We're asking for a rework to her previous spores. I mean shes gonna get the nerf hammer anyways since her original purpose for ons elite seems to actually be broken. Yeep gg to bae

[DreadWarlock]

On 2018-05-20 at 11:48 AM, (PS4)drollive96 said:

You sir are a troll, just trying to get things nerfed to get people angry, this game was NEVER difficult since i started 4 years ago and nerfing everything into oblivion wont make it more challenging or less challenging  . It will only anger players and cause arguments. (Like right now) Thats all this will accomplish.

And your argument represents the cancer mentality that has been making this game go wrong for so long. No game should ever reward players for afking or standing still pressing a button, this is not a playstyle, nor a preference this is not playing the game at all.

If you have a combat system, it is there for you to take advantage of it, not to completely ignore it by using something that removes interaction with it altogether. Frames that allow for such a thing to happen are broken. It's not a matter of fun, and I seriously doubt people who use Spin 2 Win or Press button to Win setups even know what fun really means.

It's a matter of not wanting to better oneself, people want to use 0 effort to get over grind, but grind is there to stop people from getting things too fast. Too much efficiency results in content drought, which pressures the company into working twice as fast, which in turn reduces the amount of time a team has in preventing gamebreaking bugs from entering the game(which is impossible to deal with for real, but one can reduce the likelyhood of one of those from happening), and content drought also kills interest in the game from player's side. And even if you don't mind people getting things too fast then you have a problem with hardcore players who actually like exploring the game's system as opposed to casuals who only want press 2 win builds or other cheesy afk builds(which certaily don't exist in other games or are playstyles that are locked behind P2W paywalls), because the game will stop being fun for them.

In all seriousness, most of the problems this game face come from player's side who always try to do everything to kill what makes gaming interesting in the first place. Play any other multiplayer game and you'll see that grind in this game is almost paradise because the whole experience is fun to do and you do get rewarded for patience(unlike games like BDO which only feels punishing). I understand that DE has let some broken tactics survive too long, and so people started beliving those tactics were a feature. But wanting to get things in few days is a mistake that comes from player's side. Destiny 2's failure is there to prove my point about too much farming efficiency being cancerous to fun and gameplay.

No one is saying to weaken Warframes, but power should be rewarded for players who actually play the game.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by DreadWarlock

[Ange1ofD4rkness]

I know I am late to the party (I took some time off), I came back to see my favorite frame, Saryn Prime, was different (audio initially).  As I read I am in love with this new changes. I nicknamed my frame Pestilence, because I had her spreading viral spores everywhere.

While bummed to hear I can only cast it once, I am happy to hear how easily it spreads (again, this is how I was trying to play Saryn was to spread the virus, and always hated when a chain ended). Also the new molt ability has got my attention (even though it seems now we can't throw our spores on it anymore ... bummer I liked that trap, but it wasn't the best). Toxic Lash, HUGE plus. As much as I loved melee, guns were more my style and this felt like a waste to me. So this new option, just adds to spreading the plague more.

Everything about this just makes her seem more Bad Ass! Higher Status effects is a huge plus as well.

Seriously, so excited as these changes literally are ONLY improvements on the my Pestilence Warframe build!

Edited May 21, 2018 by Ange1ofD4rkness