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Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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1 hour ago, DtHouse said:

Bah, personally i don't know why the peoples are complain about the spore now. Finally saryn can build damage and help the team on wave mission and you guys are asking again for a rework or a reduce spore damage?

Bruh. Spore is the must usless S#&$ during team play now in comparison. We're asking for a rework to her previous spores. I mean shes gonna get the nerf hammer anyways since her original purpose for ons elite seems to actually be broken. Yeep gg to bae

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On 2018-05-20 at 11:48 AM, (PS4)drollive96 said:

You sir are a troll, just trying to get things nerfed to get people angry, this game was NEVER difficult since i started 4 years ago and nerfing everything into oblivion wont make it more challenging or less challenging  . It will only anger players and cause arguments. (Like right now) Thats all this will accomplish.

And your argument represents the cancer mentality that has been making this game go wrong for so long. No game should ever reward players for afking or standing still pressing a button, this is not a playstyle, nor a preference this is not playing the game at all.

If you have a combat system, it is there for you to take advantage of it, not to completely ignore it by using something that removes interaction with it altogether. Frames that allow for such a thing to happen are broken. It's not a matter of fun, and I seriously doubt people who use Spin 2 Win or Press button to Win setups even know what fun really means.

It's a matter of not wanting to better oneself, people want to use 0 effort to get over grind, but grind is there to stop people from getting things too fast. Too much efficiency results in content drought, which pressures the company into working twice as fast, which in turn reduces the amount of time a team has in preventing gamebreaking bugs from entering the game(which is impossible to deal with for real, but one can reduce the likelyhood of one of those from happening), and content drought also kills interest in the game from player's side. And even if you don't mind people getting things too fast then you have a problem with hardcore players who actually like exploring the game's system as opposed to casuals who only want press 2 win builds or other cheesy afk builds(which certaily don't exist in other games or are playstyles that are locked behind P2W paywalls), because the game will stop being fun for them.

In all seriousness, most of the problems this game face come from player's side who always try to do everything to kill what makes gaming interesting in the first place. Play any other multiplayer game and you'll see that grind in this game is almost paradise because the whole experience is fun to do and you do get rewarded for patience(unlike games like BDO which only feels punishing). I understand that DE has let some broken tactics survive too long, and so people started beliving those tactics were a feature. But wanting to get things in few days is a mistake that comes from player's side. Destiny 2's failure is there to prove my point about too much farming efficiency being cancerous to fun and gameplay.

No one is saying to weaken Warframes, but power should be rewarded for players who actually play the game.

 

Edited by DreadWarlock

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I know I am late to the party (I took some time off), I came back to see my favorite frame, Saryn Prime, was different (audio initially).  As I read I am in love with this new changes. I nicknamed my frame Pestilence, because I had her spreading viral spores everywhere.

While bummed to hear I can only cast it once, I am happy to hear how easily it spreads (again, this is how I was trying to play Saryn was to spread the virus, and always hated when a chain ended). Also the new molt ability has got my attention (even though it seems now we can't throw our spores on it anymore ... bummer I liked that trap, but it wasn't the best). Toxic Lash, HUGE plus. As much as I loved melee, guns were more my style and this felt like a waste to me. So this new option, just adds to spreading the plague more.

Everything about this just makes her seem more Bad Ass! Higher Status effects is a huge plus as well.

Seriously, so excited as these changes literally are ONLY improvements on the my Pestilence Warframe build!

Edited by Ange1ofD4rkness

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3 hours ago, Jebbers said:

Bruh. Spore is the must usless S#&$ during team play now in comparison. We're asking for a rework to her previous spores. I mean shes gonna get the nerf hammer anyways since her original purpose for ons elite seems to actually be broken. Yeep gg to bae

I Just had a decent Idea on some changes that can be done to her spore spreading to encourage people to not stack range and focus on Strength and other abilities instead. I'll try posting these Ideas in a relevant topic(not an actual rework just some changes to this current version). Hopefully this will make her current self feel even more interactive while keeping most things as they are right now, while also reducing the importance of range which is what has been breaking her kit this entire time.

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Okay I am really missing the multiple spores now that I played more. I seem to have a harder time getting them to spread. I have all the upgrades to extend my range and what not, but it doesn't feel like it had the range it used to

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10 hours ago, DtHouse said:

Bah, personally i don't know why the peoples are complain about the spore now. Finally saryn can build damage and help the team on wave mission and you guys are asking again for a rework or a reduce spore damage?

I not asking for another rework or reduce damage. The spore before even have more damage and weapon synergy than the spore now. Now it just press it one and forget about it and the damage still much lower than before. I test before in simulacrum and with 5 shot to heavy gunner then 1 spore cast and 1 more shot to pop the spore it can do 5k~9k per tick to all other lvl 120 heavy gunner it spread to. Plus viral proc it kill every single one of them just with that. Now how long you have to kill them with spore. If you said corrosive strips armor good then no you still have to kill them by your weapon. By the time you kill 1 groups I already kill the whole room, Ppl before just abuse the viral spread and some dont even know that you can spread toxin damage. And if you encounter even higher lvl enemy just shot more to stack more gas before cast spore and pop. It much faster than this ramp up damage.

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6 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

I Just had a decent Idea on some changes that can be done to her spore spreading to encourage people to not stack range and focus on Strength and other abilities instead. I'll try posting these Ideas in a relevant topic(not an actual rework just some changes to this current version). Hopefully this will make her current self feel even more interactive while keeping most things as they are right now, while also reducing the importance of range which is what has been breaking her kit this entire time.

if you take look at forum you will see that many are complaining about spore spread. rework in general is supported buy there are much complain and dis satisfaction about spores spread. some are just chasing pure dmg in order to nuke map. all in all saryn has much less use than b4. hate to repeat my self about this matter. and yes DE just wont listen to us, if they do i think we would already have hotfix for tune up spores in term of spread.

Edited by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

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6 hours ago, Ange1ofD4rkness said:

I know I am late to the party (I took some time off), I came back to see my favorite frame, Saryn Prime, was different (audio initially).  As I read I am in love with this new changes. I nicknamed my frame Pestilence, because I had her spreading viral spores everywhere.

While bummed to hear I can only cast it once, I am happy to hear how easily it spreads (again, this is how I was trying to play Saryn was to spread the virus, and always hated when a chain ended). Also the new molt ability has got my attention (even though it seems now we can't throw our spores on it anymore ... bummer I liked that trap, but it wasn't the best). Toxic Lash, HUGE plus. As much as I loved melee, guns were more my style and this felt like a waste to me. So this new option, just adds to spreading the plague more.

Everything about this just makes her seem more Bad Ass! Higher Status effects is a huge plus as well.

Seriously, so excited as these changes literally are ONLY improvements on the my Pestilence Warframe build!

 

5 hours ago, Ange1ofD4rkness said:

Okay I am really missing the multiple spores now that I played more. I seem to have a harder time getting them to spread. I have all the upgrades to extend my range and what not, but it doesn't feel like it had the range it used to

ty for noticing this. i hope than if enough player make good explained complain and in enough numbers DE would just have to change this. we just need some tune up for spores, spread is lot batter b4 than it is now. ability still know to bugg up, freeze duo delay on cast spore and start tick for dmg stack. so if it die by other players spore know to bug results in frozen ability. so new game play with broken ability which was intended this way is so bad. give few days run trough star chart and you will see how worse she is for other type of missions than b4. she is limited now, so spores are nerfed but also given carrot dmg of end game or what ever for donkeys to chase.

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i'm personally loving the saryn rework. I although have 2 ideas to make her even better:

1: that you can see infected enemies through walls maybe with your energy colour or something infesty like

2: seeing that most people now are even more afk with current saryn then pre rework, could we have more range (even only a bit more than current range) on toxic lash kills and less than current on "natural death" spore kills so you're forced to at least play the game

thx and pls dont nerf her to the ground, the community would be very very sad

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Saryn needs her ability synergy back. She feels kinda crappy with like, no synergy between her abilities now.

Also, I feel like we should be able to cast spores as much as we want, but then hold down 1 to pop spores. Either that, or the spread range and spore spread count needs a massive buff.

Also, aoe weapons (mutalist cernos, ogris, lenz, etc.) do not pop spores anymore? I don't know if its a bug or not but either way, not being able to pop spores using aoe weapons is a massive nerf in itself.

As it is right now, It feels like saryn doesn't even have a 1st ability, her 2nd ability is only used for healing herself (which is rarely needed). Her 3rd ability, while actually good now, is still rarely used. And her 4th ability is spammed.

Yeah. she feels kinda crappy and mediocre now. which sucks because she was already in a good spot. She didn't need the nerfs.

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3 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

Why are people saying she needs more range?

The spread range on the actual spores is pretty terrible now imo. What's worse is that only 1 spore is inflicted on any nearby enemies that are within 5 meters of the initially proced enemy (with a max range build). It just feels like she got nerfed to fk.

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Just now, RedToothKaki said:

The spread range on the actual spores is pretty terrible now imo.

How has the range changed from Saryn 2.0?

 

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1 minute ago, Cibyllae said:

How has the range changed from Saryn 2.0?

 

Well I don't have the exacts but, I'll use my hydron runs as an example. 

Previous Sayn

- on my fun build, where It's a build I made using mods like reflex guard, natural talent, equilibrium -- mods like those. While also keeping all stats above 100%

Popping spores from the front doorway would put spores on the enemies behind the locked doors up the small stair case on the first floor and also on enemies that are going up the staircase on the second floor to mid

- On my max range build, 1 spore. On all enemies on the map

Now that's with it being used with molt

without molt, putting it on an enemy on my fun build would've shot spores on all surrounding enemies in mid and just outside mid

without molt, on my fun build, basically twice that distance

 

Now, with saryn 3.0? or w/e tf you guys are calling it.

On my fun build, it goes no where. not even on the enemy right next to the initially procced target

On my max range build, maybe 5 meters feels like. 

And it sucks cuz that ability use to be so good. It procced viral religiously, literally almost every tick. Which is why I didn't and still don't, believe Pablo when he said each spore had a 10% proc chance. That was bs. And not having any synergy between her abilities now? Not gonna lie. Now that there's no synergy, what-so-ever, I literally only use her 4th ability now. Spores suck. Molt is only used to heal, which my sentinel does constantly and my kavat/kubrow does -- constantly. Toxic lash is just a tiny bit better, but in a game where 100% of your arsenal is too overpowered for the type of content in the game -- what's the point in buffing yourself further? Miasma is basically an actual functioning version of spores except you don't have to actively pop spores -- everything get's hit with a bunch of viral procs.

Just feels like she's been nerfed to the point of "unusable" and that if I want to use a debuffing frame I might as well use a flash accelerant ember, since at least all of her abilities FEEL like they're functioning.... or mag. Saryn though? With no synergy.. or anything except for one ability, there's just -- idk. If this is how the "reworks" are going, I can't play a game where everything feels like its getting nerfed like this.

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3 minutes ago, RedToothKaki said:

Now, with saryn 3.0? or w/e tf you guys are calling it.

On my fun build, it goes no where. not even on the enemy right next to the initially procced target

On my max range build, maybe 5 meters feels like.  

Are you using Toxic Lash when hitting the enemies?

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Oh, I also noticed that they gave saryn's spores the "gara treatment".

It's best to use them while there's like 20 enemies packed up in a 5 meter radius to possibly get a lot of damage stored up. Thing is, how are you suppose to pop the spore in a group of enemies in a horde shooter? AOE weapons don't pop them anymore. your best bet is going full melee. Which is exactly how this rework feels -- If anything it feels like its forcing saryn out of the caster frame category into a melee frame category.

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1 minute ago, RedToothKaki said:

AOE weapons don't pop them anymore.

They do if you have Toxic Lash active.

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Just now, Cibyllae said:

Are you using Toxic Lash when hitting the enemies?

No, I don't use saryn as a melee frame. IF anything in the past, If i were to ever use toxic lash it would've been with my glaive prime. And if i'm trying to do nothing but pop spores, in the past I would've used my mutalist cernos to proc viral+heat and keep the that one particular enemy locked in place, or for molt. whichever or, it had always felt satisfying. 😕

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Just now, Cibyllae said:

They do if you have Toxic Lash active.

So, i gotta use -- i'm logged in rn i'll check it out

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Spores have an unbelievably small hitbox, actually popping them with bullets is almost impossible unless you stand still and aim for a couple seconds. What is most likely happening is you're killing enemies which is halving the range of spores, and then the ability ramps up in damage, those enemies die and spread spores at half range. Which gives the illusion that the spore range is less than what it should be. This can be remedied by hitting enemies with any weapon, while toxic lash is up, at a rate which is too your likely.  Spore range is halved on enemy death from any source, I have yet to verify if one-shoting an enemy with toxic lash active spreads spores at full or half range yet though. Hitting enemies while toxic lash is up pops spores for full range.

Edited by Cibyllae

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3 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

They do if you have Toxic Lash active.

Ayye it does work.

so that fixes one my issues. Actually like 2.

I can atleast actually use spores the way i use to.

And just that little tid bit of information gave an actual purpose to use toxic lash.

But, using spores still feels off.

Just feels like it's not actually spreading.

It's similar to what you said in your first post 

That and i'm 100% positive I hate the corrosive element.

But it's whatever, I'm going to go have fun with the last little thing DE has left me to have fun with. Spores+my mutalist cernos and this old as dirt mutalist cernos riven I have been using since the dawn of time XD

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5 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

Spores have an unbelievably small hitbox, actually popping them with bullets is almost impossible unless you stand still and aim for a couple seconds. What is most likely happening is you're killing enemies which is halving the range of spores, and then the ability ramps up in damage, those enemies die and spread spores at half range. Which gives the illusion that the spore range is less than what it should be. Spore range is halved on enemy death from any source, I have yet to verify if one-shoting an enemy with toxic lash active spreads spores at full or half range yet though. This can be remedied by hitting enemies with any weapon while toxic lash is up at a frequent enough rate.

Ah ok. Yeah I don't actually stand still to hit the spore. Since I've read that killing them will still spread them, I take that route. Less mobility means more of me dying so--. But, if killing them like you said is halving the range, then that's probably what's been going on. 

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2 minutes ago, RedToothKaki said:

Yeah I don't actually stand still to hit the spore.

Ayy lmao I hope that there is no soul who does hahahaha, that would be incredibly boring to have to stand still and aim.

EDIT: Glad you can still enjoy her 👍

Edited by Cibyllae

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After trying Saryn for a while in normal maps, i can say that altough the stated intetion of the rework was to make her easier to use, the actual result was to nerf her.

- spores don't propagate correctly anymore and are less effective on anything that isn't heavily armored i.e. half of the factions in game, in particular was lost a lot of DPS against corpus were the toxic tics bypassed shields nicely; the change from viral to corrosive damage doesn't fit with her theme and we have other ways to strip armor. (just rework armor scaling once and for all instead of plastering further band aids on it damnit!)

- molt still doesn't draw aggro away from Saryn herself and lasts just a bit more than before;

- toxic lash, while i welcome the extension of its effect to all weapons I decry the loss of energy recovery, as Saryn is as energy hungry as ever;

- miasma, nice we lost most of its CC aspect and its range is still meh: turning it in a persistent venom cloud with innate staggering effect on all the enemies inside would have killed anyone DE?

Stat changes: the extra armor is a pittance and is inappropriate on a caster frame, she should have gotten better survivability from an effective rework of her molt, also why the Heck isn't the augment folded into it already?!

@Pablo, while Saryn wasn't perfect after your first rework as her power interaction hadn't been documented officially anywere and her miasma had a fairly forced sinergy with her spores and statuses inflicted to prevent further press #4 to win, she worked.

Her current interaction, considering the good work done on Nidus (except the nerf to his passive!) and Harrow, is not up to your standard, in particular considering that this "revision" removed options from her kit.

I'm sorry to say that is apparent that the main intent was to nerf her in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, objective failed there due to enemy density helping her mantaining DPS, while her spores have become unwieldy in the rest of the starmap without recast possibility.

And from the comments before mine, it seems she's being pigeonholed again into melee or in using her toxic lash to have a chance to pop the damn spores, no thank you

Edited by Ikusias
Added to the feedback due to further contet in other comments
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