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[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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the swapp from viral to corrosive its a nerf ,but the other changes are ok,but its a nerf,just like ember does any1 is using ember?

 

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il y a 7 minutes, Patzer a dit :

 

 

What's wrong with just proccing viral with Miasma in 2.0? :S

The really high cost of Energy of Miasma ? and the fact Viral proc  normally last 6 second .. 

I dont think it is gonna kill the Survival Saryn since survival saryn has higher efficiency.. but it is really gonna kill the "nuke" one

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11 minutes ago, MunsuLight said:

The more I do math with it .. the more it becomes apparent this is a nerf .. Stripping armor is useless if you can do it with either Weapons or just 4x CP.

Can I see your math? Sure you can strip armor with weapons, but not in a huge AoE, all at once. 4xCP is a fair point, but I don't see it often in PuGs.

Viral effectively doubles your damage. By contrast, it would take just 3 corrosive procs to more than double the damage taken by a level 100 Heavy Gunner, because she would go from 96% damage reduction to 91.3% damage reduction. And, now you can do this while also applying viral procs in an AoE. So, I don't know how this could be a nerf if we can get viral and corrosive procs, rather than just viral procs.

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5 minutes ago, Patzer said:

Miasma?

Spore currently instantly half-healths the entire map.
Miasma can't even come close with it's puny 15m range.
Miasma also doesn't linger around (still) for enemies that weren't hit.
Not to mention the higher cast cost and lower duration.
This entire rework being better relies on the new Spore damage ramp up being insanely quick.

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The issue I see is that you want to get rid of a "cast and forget" ability and then give it infinite duration. This is a terrible idea, because that's making cast and forget even worse. I also don't think we need more nearly instant room clearing abilities. Why do you always forget that in a party there are 3 other players who may be willing to play actively? I'd be fine if spore damage wasn't higher but now that it's getting infinite scaling and duration (which is completely insane imo) you're introducing even more passive play at the detriment of teamplay, and I don't like it. There are enough banshees and equinox and trinity link with castanas sucking all the fun out of the game for the rest of the team, please don't do that.

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il y a 1 minute, dudefaceguy a dit :

Can I see your math? Sure you can strip armor with weapons, but not in a huge AoE, all at once. 4xCP is a fair point, but I don't see it often in PuGs.

Viral effectively doubles your damage. By contrast, it would take just 3 corrosive procs to more than double the damage taken by a level 100 Heavy Gunner, because she would go from 96% damage reduction to 91.3% damage reduction. And, now you can do this while also applying viral procs in an AoE. So, I don't know how this could be a nerf if we can get viral and corrosive procs, rather than just viral procs.

Your math seems right for the non CP setup .. I dont say the changes is just bad.. I'm saying that for the ultra organized team.. and 4xCP or 3XCP+Coaction Drift Setup this is a straight nerf..  and I'm also talking about the 2h+ Survival runs where Cutting HP in half is just strict better even on armored target 

And dont forget that there is also some factions to fight .. Viral.. even if damage is reduced against infested.. is still 50% less Hp to go throught .. (Infested are still mostly paper) 

I see your point and Spores probably gonna be better for PUBS ... But balancing for pubs and cutting her efficiency in organized team is not how you balance a game IMO

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I'm honestly not sure how to feel about her 1st Spore going from Viral to Corrosive and her 4th Miasma vice verse seeing how Miasma radius is affect by range. It gonna take player testing to see any pros and cons in action. I can see Onslaught being the perfect testing grounds. 

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This somehow feels too good to be true and I had to check several times if this was an old thread somehow. Once I assured myself it wasn't I had but two questions:

1. Okay, cool but... why? The changes are amazing, mostly. Energy return removal doesn't seem logical (imo) and removing options (spores + molt synergy) does not give the player more options. It's like Ubisoft and EA saying micro-transactions give more player choice, they don't and neither does this. But did Saryn really need all of this? She seemed relatively fine.

2. (This is more several questions) A voice? Why? Valkyr always felt unique because of having one. Why add one to another frame? Is there a reason (lore, mechanical, anything) or did someone at the studio just think it would be cool? Please tell me this is not going to be a trend, the silent warrior image was always great and continues to be so.

Edited by MopUpCrewman
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1 hour ago, [DE]Danielle said:

With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increase duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is no longer as Energy hungry as she used to be, so we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.

Of all the things to remove, at all, you had to take away the one thing I loved MOST about Toxic Lash in Utility.


@[DE]Danielle  I understand the thought of "making her less energy demanding" but the reality is, most players didn't even realize the 2 energy per spores was a thing as they were more likely to shoot into Zenurik or use energy pads.  They even dismissed it as being not enough energy to warrant using aside from a small community of us that even knew it was a thing.  If anything, it should be buffed to 3 energy a spore pop so that people will actually notice it.  In fact, I could see it being even more beneficial now that you put Toxic lash on both primary and secondary weapons as well so you can actually keep sustain on your energy pool without the demand/need of Trinity, Harrow, Energy Pads and Zenurik.  I am begging you, as a person that uses Toxic lash all the time;  please do not remove the energy gain!

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Consider me on board. I was just complaining about Saryn last week in a Discord chat and these changes mirror many of my theorized suggestions, ones that I thought might be a bit much for the balance of the game, but ones I dreamed for. I'm glad you're going a bit out of your comfort zone to do something special with Saryn and give her what she needs to be a tough shock-troop off-tank buffer/debuffer as her power design seems to imply. 

Swapping the elements on Spore/Miasma was a really smart idea, since Viral works best on single application and Corrosive is something that will benefit a lot more from proc spam. I hadn't even considered that change, but it's a good one now that I think about it. 

I think people complaining about Miasma not being spammable enough compared with Spores aren't thinking of how the builds and overall power design will be changing to make Saryn much less energy-hungry (current builds generally run negative efficiency and need EV Trin). Saryn will have plenty of energy left to cast Miasma when needed post-rework. 

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Question! How does Saryn sound? Like, is there a tone or a particular "vocalization" you're going for with her? (Or has it already been done and we're all waiting with bated breath for what sounds like a fairly exciting rejiggering?) I'm imaging something like a hushed Ivy Valentine ala Soul Calibur 2 mixed with a background of poisonous bubbling noises, or something akin to Svetlana Khodchenkova's "Viper" from The Wolverine where she basically flaunts her power. (You know that one scene where she licks the pen to poison the tip and says "A Viper." and she has that dangerous edgy tone in her voice? Like that.) 

Also, it's only now that I realize I'd be responding while there are 9 or 20 pages of responses already, so I'm pretty sure my voice is going to drown out over the hundreds of others, but this rework, while sort of unexpected, has me kind of excited. My Saryn/P  are spore builds, so with the proposed changes, this'll really ramp her up in terms of deadliness and I'm eager to see what comes of all this. I was a little apprehensive at first but as with most things (and as it's been explicitly stated above,) it's in development/testing and I should really give it a chance before deciding whether or not I'm still a part of Saryn's team or not.

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9 minutes ago, Patzer said:

How the hell do you derive nerf from this?

After you strip armor with basic 4xCP there are other reliable ways of dealing with enemies, including more efficient targeted armor stripping.

Swapping auras and builds just to synergize with Saryn? I have a few ideas already but honestly - Saryn? Of all the OP junk, Eidolon meta, Hunter Munitions... Why start from Saryn if you absolutely have to nerf frames? This is so random and I don't think Onslaught usefulness of viral could justify this... 

If listed changes remain as stated, Saryn loses a LOT of dps. She does not seem to gain  mobile power either, stil best as a stationary caster. Balanced builds over min-maxing. RIP range build for a start. 

DE has a streak of awful reworks so excuse me for not being optimistic. 

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Looks great to me, along with some bug fixing that apparently riddled Saryn? Some users used to mention bugs on her mechanics but I don't know the specifics.

 

Also hopefully Volt will get a true rework, you know, one that turns him on a high damage alternative to gunplay and one for Chroma that makes him to something. 😞 

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Not sure about the spore/miasma damage swap and the energy regen removal.otherwise looks fine

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Intrigued yet concerned.
I'm curious to see how the viral/corrosive swap is going to work, and if Saryn spores will still hold up in shield augment sorties. At a first glance, it looks like she'll be stuck as a 4 masher in those missions.
As a Saryn user (built two primes so I could use more tennogen) I think these look like all around good changes, and I'm curious to see if she still will fit the same roles as she did pre-change.

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Wow, those changes look great! I am a bit scared of hidden nerfs but the current concepts sound awesome. I love saryn, one of my more used frames (150k kills since her rework) so I am very much looking forward to this.

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lol all these doomsday predictions and from a casual veteran perspective i'm salivating like...... this is too good to be true. there's NO way they're gonna let this rework stay this good

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il y a 1 minute, Outlander3734 a dit :

Consider me on board. I was just complaining about Saryn last week in a Discord chat and these changes mirror many of my theorized suggestions, ones that I thought might be a bit much for the balance of the game, but ones I dreamed for. I'm glad you're going a bit out of your comfort zone to do something special with Saryn and give her what she needs to be a tough shock-troop off-tank buffer/debuffer as her power design seems to imply. 

Swapping the elements on Spore/Miasma was a really smart idea, since Viral works best on single application and Corrosive is something that will benefit a lot more from proc spam. I hadn't even considered that change, but it's a good one now that I think about it. 

I think people complaining about Miasma not being spammable enough compared with Spores aren't thinking of how the builds and overall power design will be changing to make Saryn much less energy-hungry (current builds generally run negative efficiency and need EV Trin). Saryn will have plenty of energy left to cast Miasma when needed post-rework. 

Spores Saryn doesnt need EV Trin at all .. there is no point spamming infite spores past a point .. And you can still use Synoid Gammacor .. 

Maybe she will become less energy hungry .. 

But in the very long run.. (Talking about 2h+ Survival) .. the switch of elements is gonna wreck her.. 

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I played a good amount of time with Saryn and I love her since she wasn't so heavily focused on a 4th ability and spores were cast once and forget, and getting back to the gunplay. This is especially true given the option of not requiring energy maintenance like most DPS frames that continuously need recasting. I do agree about the strange learning/research about figuring out the underlying mechanics, very much so when it came to her spore.

I'm looking forward to most of these changes, however I am having mixed feelings on spore damage being switched from viral to corrosive as it's another addition to many warframes to strip armor yet when fighting armor reinforced enemies(grineer) even during sorties 1 her viral spores became useless. This revisit, if all or most of these changes make it into the game, I can't wait to test it.  

Edited by Huyhn

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More armor is always good, and I am glad Saryn will still keep the ability to heal (with and augment at least) but I can't help but feel this is more a response to Onslaught rather than Saryn's QoL as they say. Kudos on DE Danielle getting to voice the warframe. Perhaps this will be useful if warframes are shown to develop their own awareness outside the Tenno as some players think the game is hinting.

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I love saryn and she is by far my most played frame, im fine with all these changes but tbh, i wish that instead of the speed buff after molting it was some form of damage reduction to combo with her augment. I really love the melee game play style and the problem with her is, outside of the quick thinking/hunters adrenaline setup she just gets to a point where she cant handle being in the middle of a fight. I have never had any love for the sit in a corner and spam spores on your molt play style so i am more then happy to see you moving away from this.

Maybe instead of a speed buff you could give her a huge % armor buff after molting to give her time to heal up from regenerative molt mod. I dunno, tbh, i hate fighting heavy armor with her so the change to spore and the growing damage is a welcome change to her and giving her alt a little more punch is awsome. Either way, i look forward to trying things out.

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2 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

I hope she still sounds moist.

 

Be careful what you wish for....

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