Dear DE, you want to avoid ability spam / AFK-"gameplay" once and for all? Solve the problem at its root: The energy economy.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Yes, there's no way around it. Instead of repeatedly redesigning skills and mods on the basis of constant availability of all skills in equal measure let's look at the latter as the problem. Yes, it's OK to be able to rely on your BNB skills MOST of the time when built accordingly but i strongly feel like this should not apply to Ults (4s, mostly) as by design those should really be a "oh-sh..." button for dire situations which use you EARNED by being conservative with your energy and holding out for a certain time while actually relying on your weapons, which are mostly just trophies atm. (- meming strike... we all know that'll be fixed tho)

So how to go about it?

Well first of all get rid of EV. Simple as that. (Or at the very least rework it in a way Trin can't replenish her own energy, too, making it a perpetuum mobile)  Then introduce a lower limit for energy pads per mission. i think 10 per player is still quite generous, as that'd mean 40 in a full team, maybe even still too much...

That leaves Zenurik... Yes this would make this focus school even more mandatory than it is already.
My suggestion is a built-in energy regeneration for ALL frames and also changing efficiency mods to regen boost mods. This way it'd be relatively simple to define a baseline / maximum in ability casting frequency. Let's say with a full fleeting + streamline setup allow a replenishing rate that'd result in being able to cast a nuke every 7 seconds or so. Don't quote me on the exact numbers, that's up to you really. To avoid making duration based / exalted ults inappropriately superior fall-offs like WoF would have to be introduced but not neccessarily as strict. This is another issue really, would need playtesting...

Next i'd suggest to re-evaluate skill costs across the board. The fixed steps of 25/50/75/100 often fail to reflect their relative effectivenesses imo, like is Sound Quake really only 4x as powerful as Sonic Boom (Oh speaking of which: ALL 1s should be one handed to allow simultaneous reloading imho 😉 ) ? I understand this makes things potentially more complex but i seriously feel looser steps would be due, like some 1s costing only 15 while going up for certain ults to 125.

I understand these suggestions will not be popular on first glance. If you feel constant availability of all skills is how it should be because everything else would immediately result in WF becoming CoD: Goodspeed to you.

But think about it: What's the point of having different skill costs in the first place? Isn't this the reason lots of frames only have 1/2 skills frequently used, because the total supremacy of ults make lesser skills redundant? Also consider that atm DE continues to balance skills around constant availabilty to make gameplay more active which inevitably results in nerfs and disappointment. My plea: Rather swing the hammer big time once and fix things at the root, so in the grand scheme of things this is actually hopefully an anti-nerf thread XD...

Whatever. Thanks for your attention.

[Trichouette]

I still think the game would be better with no energy and short cooldown.

This way you can use an ability as much as you want without impairing how you use the other ability of your kit (right now if you spam 4 you don't have energy for 1/2/3...)

 

But I agree with you, although you forgot rage (and that other hunter mod)

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Trichouette:

But I agree with you, although you forgot rage (and that other hunter mod)

I'm sure i forgot lots of things, i just hammered this down rather spontaneously in hope it would at the very least spark a fruitful discussion with the quinessence being energy as a main balancing problem.

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Trichouette:

I still think the game would be better with no energy and short cooldown.

This way you can use an ability as much as you want without impairing how you use the other ability of your kit (right now if you spam 4 you don't have energy for 1/2/3...)

That's why i suggested to re-evaluate skill costs. It'd be easy to calculate a regen ratio that'd allow the use of 1s pretty much constantly (in a matter of a second or less) while 4s would take longer accordingly. I'm not against cooldowns per se at all but as apparently even the Devs ruled that solution out a "heat up" as i proposed seems like the next best thing.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Trichouette]

il y a 1 minute, Kotsender_Quasimir a dit :

That's why i suggested to re-evaluate skill costs. It'd be easy to calculate a regen ratio that'd allow the use of 1s pretty much constantly (in a matter of a second or less) while 4s would take longer accordingly. I'm not against cooldowns per se at all but as apparently even the Devs ruled that solution out a "heat up" as i proposed seems like the next best thing.

Yeah devs seem to not want cooldown, players neither.

Although I think it would be the best.

Short cooldown and "stack" feature would be neat.

(imagine ash stacking up to 10 spinning blade and being able to throw as many as he wishes, then wait 2sec for each blade to recharge.....)

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Trichouette:

Yeah devs seem to not want cooldown, players neither.

Although I think it would be the best.

Short cooldown and "stack" feature would be neat.

(imagine ash stacking up to 10 spinning blade and being able to throw as many as he wishes, then wait 2sec for each blade to recharge.....)

stack mechanics usually work pretty great yeah, i quite love harrow gameplay for example... (less tho nidus as his only way of building up is, well, spamming the same skill over and over XP)

and thus the "haha" rain began 🙂...

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Nitro747]

They don't want to "get rid of ability spam" as that would be simply ridiculous considering that many frames are worked around casting their abilities a lot of times, like Nidus. Not every frame needs to be a dull "cast ability once or twice" kind of like Rhino and not all of them are built for that and relying on guns to deal damage. The only thing they want is to get rid of "press 4 to win" and other dumb and lazy builds like meme strike, which they are doing good. Example: Mag can obliterate the enemies and easily be at 80% team damage, but you gotta work for that. Same goes to the current and future Saryn. The only kind of flop/backfire was with Banshee's Soundquake but at least you can say that players no longer press 4 once and go make a tea or watch TV while it kills everything.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

The only problem with this is that many frames rely on their ultimate to do anything, or at least have it as the linchpin of the set. Titania, Gara, Nekros, Inaros,I Ash, Excalibur, Ivara, Mesa, Nova, Octavia, Reworked Saryn, and Valkyr are all either built around or rely on their 4th ability to help the team. If Titania isn't in Razorwing as much as possible, she has limited DPS and no survivability. If Octavia can't use Amp, then her Mallet does very little damage and covers a small area. Gara's entire kit is based around using her 4, either for defense, or for refreshing and stacking her 2. Ash relies on synergy between his 2 and his 4. Excalibur, Ivara, Mesa, and Valkyr are all centered around their Exalted Weapons.

I can understand why reducing access to 'ultimate' abilities sounds like a good idea on the surface, but it just wouldn't work with the large number of frames that require using their 4th abilities often in order to make their kit work.

Also, while a few frames are used almost entirely for their 4th power, many frames don't use their 4th as their main ability, so I fail to see how anyone can think that the 'lesser skills' are redundant in more than a few frames. In fact, here is a list of the frames that don't use their 4th as their main skill, nor as their most-used skill:

• Atlas
• Chroma
• Frost
• Harrow
• Inaros (unless you count charging it)
• Ivara
• Khora
• Loki
• Mag
• Mirage
• Nekros
• Nezha
• Nidus
• Oberon
• Octavia
• Rhino
• Saryn
• Vauban
• Wukong
• Zephyr

That's a pretty long list of frames that would be either unaffected or mildly inconvinienced by not being able to use their 4th on a regular basis. These frames do not have 'underused' skills because of their 4th; they have underused skills because the underused skills are either lackluster or very situational.

Now, here is a list of frames that would be almost impossible to play in the new energy economy you suggest without having major reworks to abilities:

Ash, Atlas, Banshee, Ember, Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Gara, Hydroid, Ivara, Loki, Mag, Mesa, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Octavia, Saryn, Titania, Valkyr, Vauban, Volt, and Zephyr.

That's most of the frames we have.

[Asdryu]

I think that this would fix a problem that isn't really there.
1st of all. The change to trinity: just no. No to all. Just no lol. It has been discussed many times already and it comes down that this is, a let's limit ourselves to say, "bad" idea.

4th abilities should be used for "Oh ffffjidufjdju" moments, I agree on that, but many abilties would need a massive ramp up in their damages, but at this point even utility. Nekros' shadows of the dead would remain the same, but still needs to be casted enough times to mantain those.

Now, changing efficiency to an energy boost is a complexed change overall. Abilities that have a channeling aspect to them, such as Oberon's 3rd, would have to face a huge change for optimized build.

Personally, I don't understand this litte grudge that is going on against abilities. I mean: they're what makes a frame different. It's the enemy itself that either needs to be enhanced in some fields or have a fixed scaling to let us face them differently without us being exploded by their simple look of their eyes.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

They don't want to "get rid of ability spam"

"(...) we don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game (...)" source: https://www.warframe.com/news/the-remote-observer-vol-14

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

like Nidus

This only applies to his 1 tho. Please read again, i was mostly aiming at ults with the ability to rely on lower skills intact.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Asdryu:

Personally, I don't understand this litte grudge that is going on against abilities.

In fact what i proposed would be in favour of abilities, namely all but the room cleaner ones.

[Nitro747]

6 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

"(...) we don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game (...)" source: https://www.warframe.com/news/the-remote-observer-vol-14

This only applies to his 1 tho. Please read again, i was mostly aiming at ults with the ability to rely on lower skills intact.

yeah, you completely cut the other part of the phrase that said " we do want bonus energy regen systems choices to exist with investment and likely be decoupled from Focus at this point. "

Nice way to manipulate what other people said in your favor.

Also, that doesn't apply only to Nidus' 1st. If you don't cast all of his abilities, you are doing it wrong. Same goes to Saryn, Mag, etc.

[Nitro747]

4 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

In fact what i proposed would be in favour of abilities, namely all but the room cleaner ones.

Which "room cleaner" ones? Banshee's resonating quake that needs an augment and only works on unarmored lvl 40 max enemies?

Currently Equinox is only being able to nuke entire rooms by herself because Onslaught is literally the perfect place for that ability to work. Nonetheless, Equinox is squishy as heck, you need to build up your damage by a lot as you progress the game. If you can't survive while building up the nuke, you fail. It requires skill, which is exactly what they want this game to be.

So, again, what even is your point?

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb -AoN-CanoLathra-:

The only problem with this is that many frames rely on their ultimate to do anything, or at least have it as the linchpin of the set. Titania, Gara, Nekros, Inaros,I Ash, Excalibur, Ivara, Mesa, Nova, Octavia, Reworked Saryn, and Valkyr are all either built around or rely on their 4th ability to help the team. If Titania isn't in Razorwing as much as possible, she has limited DPS and no survivability. If Octavia can't use Amp, then her Mallet does very little damage and covers a small area. Gara's entire kit is based around using her 4, either for defense, or for refreshing and stacking her 2. Ash relies on synergy between his 2 and his 4. Excalibur, Ivara, Mesa, and Valkyr are all centered around their Exalted Weapons.

I can understand why reducing access to 'ultimate' abilities sounds like a good idea on the surface, but it just wouldn't work with the large number of frames that require using their 4th abilities often in order to make their kit work.

Also, while a few frames are used almost entirely for their 4th power, many frames don't use their 4th as their main ability, so I fail to see how anyone can think that the 'lesser skills' are redundant in more than a few frames. In fact, here is a list of the frames that don't use their 4th as their main skill, nor as their most-used skill:

• Atlas
• Chroma
• Frost
• Harrow
• Inaros (unless you count charging it)
• Ivara
• Khora
• Loki
• Mag
• Mirage
• Nekros
• Nezha
• Nidus
• Oberon
• Octavia
• Rhino
• Saryn
• Vauban
• Wukong
• Zephyr

That's a pretty long list of frames that would be either unaffected or mildly inconvinienced by not being able to use their 4th on a regular basis. These frames do not have 'underused' skills because of their 4th; they have underused skills because the underused skills are either lackluster or very situational.

Now, here is a list of frames that would be almost impossible to play in the new energy economy you suggest without having major reworks to abilities:

Ash, Atlas, Banshee, Ember, Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Gara, Hydroid, Ivara, Loki, Mag, Mesa, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Octavia, Saryn, Titania, Valkyr, Vauban, Volt, and Zephyr.

That's most of the frames we have.

Thanks for this elaborate list, it shows you were really pondering my solutions. Concerning that point about frames being solely viable through their 4s: You really think a potential wait time of a few seconds would completely break them? Honestly i don't see it.

On the other hand you sure are right about frames which don't rely on nukes, for example one would indeed still be able to spam atlas 1 and be invulnerable the whole time. that'd still need to be looked at for sure...

vor einer Stunde schrieb -AoN-CanoLathra-:

These frames do not have 'underused' skills because of their 4th; they have underused skills because the underused skills are either lackluster or very situational.

Yes, admittedly that's another valid point.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

Nice way to manipulate what other people said in your favor.

I insinuated the quote only being part of a longer statement (...) and also provided the source so i honestly don't think i did. it's not like the continuation you posted even conradicts what i quoted, is it?

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[sixmille]

Energy needs to be more scarce but that's going to be hard to do now that DE added consumables, zenurik and warframes providing infinite energy (don't forget harrow). DE will (reluctantly) have to add cooldowns to ults one day, because we now have infinite energy in practice. It's not an economy if it's so abundant that there is no need to manage it.

Edited May 12, 2018 by sixmille

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

Which "room cleaner" ones? Banshee's resonating quake that needs an augment and only works on unarmored lvl 40 max enemies?

Currently Equinox is only being able to nuke entire rooms by herself because Onslaught is literally the perfect place for that ability to work. Nonetheless, Equinox is squishy as heck, you need to build up your damage by a lot as you progress the game. If you can't survive while building up the nuke, you fail. It requires skill, which is exactly what they want this game to be.

So, again, what even is your point?

Well, one reason room cleaners got nerfed again and again was their spamability because of the abundancy of energy, that was one of my points. Even old Miasma or Bladestorm wouldn't have been OP (albeit still boring) if you could only cast them every so often. So you're actually right, there are probably less nukes in the game now than ever, but they're still there and able to completely trivialize the new gamemode which was supposed to be endgame. My point was also looking for a general solution instead of having to rework skills again and again.

edit: And btw the way Equinox works her ult wouldn't even be affected much by the changes i suggested, so i guess we're actually cool 😉 (tho i feel infinitely scaling abilities / mods (covert lethality) are a mistake in a game with modes which are supposed to force you out at a certain point... that's another story tho)

edit edit: Or think about their reluctancy to buff Discharge... Also note i'm not talking about 4s exclusively (only mainly). Bastille to me falls into a similar category, think about how Vaubs with a Trin was able to permanently disable any opposition whatsoever in LoR (rip)... Skills like that could maybe use a higher cost (or cap), hence my plea to make those more flexible. Instead nullifying drones were introduced, a bandaid which, again, wouldn't have been neccessary if spamability itself would've been looked at (same goes for all nullifying units really whose "pupularity" is quite notorious).

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Nitro747]

43 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well, one reason room cleaners got nerfed again and again was their spamability because of the abundancy of energy, that was one of my points. Even old Miasma or Bladestorm wouldn't have been OP (albeit still boring) if you could only cast them every so often. So you're actually right, there are probably less nukes in the game now than ever, but they're still there and able to completely trivialize the new gamemode which was supposed to be endgame. My point was also looking for a general solution instead of having to rework skills again and again.

edit: And btw the way Equinox works her ult wouldn't even be affected much by the changes i suggested, so i guess we're actually cool 😉 (tho i feel infinitely scaling abilities / mods (covert lethality) are a mistake in a game with modes which are supposed to force you out at a certain point... that's another story tho)

edit edit: Or think about their reluctancy to buff Discharge... Also note i'm not talking about 4s exclusively (only mainly). Bastille to me falls into a similar category, think about how Vaubs with a Trin was able to permanently disable any opposition whatsoever in LoR (rip)... Skills like that could maybe use a higher cost (or cap), hence my plea to make those more flexible. Instead nullifying drones were introduced, a bandaid which, again, wouldn't have been neccessary if spamability itself would've been looked at (same goes for all nullifying units really whose "pupularity" is quite notorious).

The problem wasn't "spamability" as you say, the problem was the fact that players were able to deal a S#&$load of damage by just pressing 4. They didn't require any skill at all. Now, for the most part, you need skill, you need to know how the frame works, etc and most importantly, you dont need to cast it once and go drink a cup of tea anymore. Saryn now requires you to know how she works and use her other abilities to dish out a lot of damage. The same goes on to many other frames. Again, I don't see what the heck is your point since old Miasma and Bladestorm are looooong gone, Ember got "nerfed" (it was a buff but ok), Mag got reworked, Saryn got reworked, etc. The only boring thing around these days is Resonating Quake but at the very least we can no longer complain that the caster press 4 once and then goes on to drink a cup of tea, take a shower and then comes back to press 4 again.

Again: not every frame relies on gunplay and abilities that you cast just once or twice, currently there is only one frame that you can complain about and even so it is only effective on low level runs, which shouldn't even be considered to be honest. And you are basically complaining about one of the main things that makes warframe cool: abilities.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Shameless plug of my old trinity rework thread:  https://forums.warframe.com/topic/816491-trinity-reborn/

 

Anyway... "coughs"  Abilities can and should still be reworked to keep the idea of increasing interactivity and still having roughly the same amount of power as before.  But energy economy is something they should touch on.  I'd suggest looking at the link on how i'd address trinity's EV if nothing else.

Energy pads should be of 1 type.  100 energy.  and you should only be able to carry 3 into a mission(per person.)  That's more than enough energy.  Zenurik in my opinion should just be removed as an active focus school and just include it's benefits as default for an operator.  I think the amount of energy it gives is fine but it can probably be brought down a little bit to compensate for the buff everyones getting with it being a passive thing now.

I think other frames that give energy and mods that give energy should be left alone.  harrow you have to interact with quite a bit.  and you do take yourself out of the fight to channel more effective energy gains.  Rage/adrenaline are fine in my book because you're at risk of dying in order to get energy.  You're giving up health in return for it.  I think it's a fair trade.

As for revisiting energy costs on frames absolutely.  the standard formula of 25-100 doesn't work on all frames.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

And you are basically complaining about one of the main things that makes warframe cool: abilities.

This might be simply a matter of preference after all but i think they're cooler when they "matter", if you catch my drift. Also in general i prefer skills which enhance core gameplay (shooting, melee) instead of making it redudant. but like i said: different strokes...

About Saryn: Yeah she doesn't even revolve about her 4 anymore, but casting molt and plastering it with spores 24/7 isn't quite "there" yet at least in my book.

WF still has its share of abilities which, if spammable, result in a permanently disabled battlefield, resonant banshee is probably only the worst offender atm. The aforementioned Discharge comes to mind, while i enjoy playing Mesa i feel it's far too easy to constantly recast Peacemaker to reset her crosshair, Ocativia... Srsly there's quite some examples if you think about it. Just imagine Resonant Banshee being gone, would Onslaught actually be hard all of a sudden?

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

Anyway... "coughs"  Abilities can and should still be reworked to keep the idea of increasing interactivity and still having roughly the same amount of power as before.

Absolutely! I realize how my baity thread title sounds like i got the solution to every skill issue ever, this is of course nonsense. I was more about getting to a solid foundation... Thank you for your contribution, will check out your Trin rework!

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Absolutely! I realize how my baity thread title sounds like i got the solution to every skill issue ever, this is of course nonsense. I was more about getting to a solid foundation... Thank you for your contribution, will check out your Trin rework!

I think my changes to link and blessing are a bit dated.  and i'd probably go back and change them.  But I think how I changed her well of life and energy leech abilities are still solid.  And it's all good.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

I think my changes to link and blessing are a bit dated.  and i'd probably go back and change them.  But I think how I changed her well of life and energy leech abilities are still solid.  And it's all good.

OK, to avoid derailing the thread i will only comment on the most relevant change, Wellspring for EV:

Ability 1)  New name shall be "Wellspring."  Functionally speaking this would be her energy giving ability.  The marked target becomes "invulnerable" similar to how when nidus links to an enemy.  The enemy will emit a constant flow of energy.  Shooting the enemy will ramp up how fast the energy is coming out.  Once the enemy is "dead" it will still continue to give out energy.  But only when shooting it.  When the ability ends either due to trinity ending it herself or the duration running out one of two things will happen depending on the situation.  If the target is dead a bonus bit of energy will pulse out the base number would be a number not effected by any stat.  However if more than one ally contributed damage to the target that "bonus" energy at the end will be increased.  IF trinity ends the ability before the target dies no bonus energy is applied.  and the target is back at full health.  The ability still does damage in the same way EV currently does.

Visually speaking I want the ability to have the enemy rooted to the ground instead of floating.  And I want the enemy to be shimmering in blue.  as if covered by the energy. Potentially i'd like the ability to give a visual aura around effected allies.  So they know they are in range to receive the energy.  If this is too visually intrusive to fashion design then perhaps simply add an icon in the top where statuses are at that simply states the name of the ability so they know they are in range. Range of the ability is effected by range.  Duration effects the duration of how long the target is kept in place.  Power strength would effect the damage of the ability and how much extra energy is given when the target is shot.  Efficiency would effect the ability cost and how many times the energy would tick per second.

What i do like mechanically is the interactive aspect of having to drain the target of energy yourself. If my idea of global energy regen instead of efficiency mods would ever become a thing (yeah i'm not actually so delusional to believe that) one could consider a regen boost while shooting instead of fixed numbers. Anyway even EV should really work over time instead of actually giving out energy faster thanks to negative duration, it even states that: "Allies will gain energy over time when enemies are marked with Energy Vampire." i'm willing to bet this is nothing but an age old oversight similar to how Miasma used to be broken. That's one thing that'd be fixed by your idea, too, so yeah: props.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

OK, to avoid derailing the thread i will only comment on the most relevant change, Wellspring for EV:

Ability 1)  New name shall be "Wellspring."  Functionally speaking this would be her energy giving ability.  The marked target becomes "invulnerable" similar to how when nidus links to an enemy.  The enemy will emit a constant flow of energy.  Shooting the enemy will ramp up how fast the energy is coming out.  Once the enemy is "dead" it will still continue to give out energy.  But only when shooting it.  When the ability ends either due to trinity ending it herself or the duration running out one of two things will happen depending on the situation.  If the target is dead a bonus bit of energy will pulse out the base number would be a number not effected by any stat.  However if more than one ally contributed damage to the target that "bonus" energy at the end will be increased.  IF trinity ends the ability before the target dies no bonus energy is applied.  and the target is back at full health.  The ability still does damage in the same way EV currently does.

Visually speaking I want the ability to have the enemy rooted to the ground instead of floating.  And I want the enemy to be shimmering in blue.  as if covered by the energy. Potentially i'd like the ability to give a visual aura around effected allies.  So they know they are in range to receive the energy.  If this is too visually intrusive to fashion design then perhaps simply add an icon in the top where statuses are at that simply states the name of the ability so they know they are in range. Range of the ability is effected by range.  Duration effects the duration of how long the target is kept in place.  Power strength would effect the damage of the ability and how much extra energy is given when the target is shot.  Efficiency would effect the ability cost and how many times the energy would tick per second.

What i do like mechanically is the interactive aspect of having to drain the target of energy yourself. If my idea of global energy regen instead of efficiency mods would ever become a thing (yeah i'm not actually so delusional to believe that) one could consider a regen boost while shooting instead of fixed numbers. Anyway even EV should really work over time instead of actually giving out energy faster thanks to negative duration, it even states that: "Allies will gain energy over time when enemies are marked with Energy Vampire." i'm willing to bet this is nothing but an age old oversight similar to how Miasma used to be broken. That's one thing that'd be fixed by your idea, too, so yeah: props.

Yeah the whole idea was to let trinity be able to go about interacting with other targets instead of being forced to constantly pop EV.  And players could get more energy when they wanted but by interacting with trinity in a way.  Currently (and this is slightly off topic but) Warframe plays in most instances with 4 people playing in the same area.  Not really 4 people playing together.  And my trinity changes with her 1 and 2 were to sort of bolster the style of teams actually interacting with each other as you really don't see that outside built teams who talk to each other.

But thanks for the f'back.  I might make another trinity thread in the near future that addresses link and blessing once I think more on them.  bless would be easier to slightly change since it's mostly balanced.  link really just needs some qol upgrades.

[ZodiacShinryu]

8 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

So you're actually right, there are probably less nukes in the game now than ever, but they're still there and able to completely trivialize the new gamemode which was supposed to be endgame. My point was also looking for a general solution instead of having to rework skills again and again.

But this is actually a far larger problem than just abilities and the energy economy (honestly I'd start with the "range" most abilities can reach first as a direct link to their effectiveness). A problem that has its roots in nearly every system and interaction in the game. A general solution wont just fix it. The interesting point in all of this, is a focus on the "damage abilities" where (IMHO) the non-damaging abilities are the larger culprits of disruption and game breaking capabilities. The large scale CC and longer duration buffs which by their very nature are suited to be active for large swathes of time for so little energy makes the "energy economy" a symptom not the root. Considering any ability that doesn't borrow power from other parts of warframe (be it directly from the rest of the arsenal or indirectly through interactions with the rest of arsenal) or doesn't disable the enemy in some way are generally ignored only supports that abilities themselves are shadowed by the rest of the equipment you possess even with the restrictions that are in place now.

One of the larger problems is that endgame is a moving target for just about anyone depending on what you are looking for. Warframe is primarily a horizontal game and I think a sort of trap the Devs walk themselves into is that they don't consider the vertical part of the game enough. Since they do not restrict the player in almost any way, you inevitably walk into the situations where the hypothetical max level goes against the content designed for the beginning levels. This phenomenon is what leads to a perception of an impact that really isn't there. To lay it out simply, DE is putting out content that is lower than the theoretical max investment of a hypothetical player. I see the argument a lot, "I have this gear and no where to use it". For most frames, if you take off a handful of mods you find that frames performance actually falls more in line with most content. But the "energy economy" is only a fraction of what modding transforms.

Which leads into another large foundational problem, modding and the surprising lack of limitations there of. The largest limitation is slots, that's it. Forma (at least the way it was implemented) was one of the largest mistakes to the system. Its surprisingly free (access) and an avenue that most developers would dread (and as you can plainly see) is incredibly difficult to balance around just a handful of situations let alone 35+ base characters and hundreds to thousands of equipment arsenal interactions close after. All of it creates these large parameters to account for but near impossibility to sustain.

Honestly, everything needs to take a step back. Players need to be scaled back then built up with survivability being a higher base focus. Damage needs to be dumped across the board for players and enemies. Then fit the TTK for reasonable engagement when facing the expected level ranges. Allow the player to reasonably react to situations be it digging in or retreating at those levels and ween the need for removing the enemy (physically or metaphorically through CC) before they see you. Then they can tailor actual difficulty ranges.

All that being said, Trinity does have a certain... problem. A "perfect" support by all accounts, and I don't particularly find a problem that she makes using abilities easier (even for herself) that is part of her design. However, perhaps she does it a little too well. Honestly it would've been a simpler fix before the addition of Harrow even if Harrow has some more hoops to jump through; and with ideas for Thurble augment still out in the wild, it could still become a bigger problem itself.

2 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

I understand these suggestions will not be popular on first glance. If you feel constant availability of all skills is how it should be because everything else would immediately result in WF becoming CoD: Goodspeed to you.

I wouldn't say CoD (though personally if the player wants a heavier focus on shooting in Warframe they should just play any other "war simulator") but I would say Destiny. The jump from Destiny (1) to Destiny 2 was... rough. I mean D1 had cooldowns already but they really laid into abilities in D2. I feel it every time I play D2 it is agonizing how slow skills are when comparing them. And the less extent that we can influence/manipulate those timers is also staggering. At base, I want to say grenades and melee are at least 10-15 secs apart between them but in D1 you could get gear and weapon interactions to ease it way more. Even so there are lots of examples in both games to find players waiting in empty rooms for cooldowns/charges to come off, which is one part of DE's decision to not implement them in general. Honestly the most fun I had in D2 was when Mayhem mode was active and the cooldowns on everything was 1 sec. It was barely a shooter at that point.

That is part of the larger reasons I like Warframe is the freedom in power usage and most the time I am not the one spamming them. All that said "energy economy" is a delicate situation and just making it another shooter is a waste. I am personally still holding out for another warframe state where you can only use abilities but in an augmented state; not exactly Exalted but I suppose there are a lot of similarities and those particular abilities would be better absorbed into it.

[Dr.Wuzzah]

Not saying this is a bad way to think about balance but.... if i couldn't use my abilities as much because of energy, it would be pretty lame. But that's my preference. Besides there could potentially be more energy patches (energy 5.0 etc) depending on content. So more reworks, which defeats the whole purpose of shortcuts to balancing things, etc. 

If you are saying they should change the energy system to be more complex rather than removing what we have... that's interesting but also a lot more work than just balancing things around what we have.