Dear DE, you want to avoid ability spam / AFK-"gameplay" once and for all? Solve the problem at its root: The energy economy.

[peterc3]

3 hours ago, Trichouette said:

I still think the game would be better with no energy and short cooldown.

This is fundamentally at odds with the developers, so not likely ever to happen.

2 hours ago, sixmille said:

Energy needs to be more scarce but that's going to be hard to do now that DE added consumables, zenurik and warframes providing infinite energy (don't forget harrow). DE will (reluctantly) have to add cooldowns to ults one day, because we now have infinite energy in practice. It's not an economy if it's so abundant that there is no need to manage it.

There are no ults. This is not a MOBA. DE doesn't have to do anything, least of all do the thing they explicitly rejected before.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb ZodiacShinryu:

-snip-

Great post! Will try to dissect as best as i can:

vor 46 Minuten schrieb ZodiacShinryu:

That is part of the larger reasons I like Warframe is the freedom in power usage and most the time I am not the one spamming them. All that said "energy economy" is a delicate situation and just making it another shooter is a waste.

Delicate is the word! Of course i love using abilities like the next man, but i'd argue that a more conscious and strategic use of them would increase their value even more. And that applies all the more to the "biggies". I can understand your concerns but please mind how i emphasized

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Kotsender_Quasimir:

Yes, it's OK to be able to rely on your BNB skills MOST of the time when built accordingly

... Like in case of my main (<-) i wouldn't want to miss my shock and speed. Shields however are quite powerful and Discharge, well... Like i said, i think skill costs should be looked at for that exact reason, too.

vor 46 Minuten schrieb ZodiacShinryu:

All that being said, Trinity does have a certain... problem. A "perfect" support by all accounts, and I don't particularly find a problem that she makes using abilities easier (even for herself) that is part of her design. However, perhaps she does it a little too well. Honestly it would've been a simpler fix before the addition of Harrow even if Harrow has some more hoops to jump through; and with ideas for Thurble augment still out in the wild, it could still become a bigger problem itself.

I love Harrow. His energy restore capabilites are on the OP side, too, but HELL is he more fun to play... Otherwise i'm glad we seem to agree here. Trin is just obsolete, like you said, too perfect for me. The reason is probably quite simply that she used to be the only support frame for quite a while.

vor 46 Minuten schrieb ZodiacShinryu:

Honestly, everything needs to take a step back. Players need to be scaled back then built up with survivability being a higher base focus. Damage needs to be dumped across the board for players and enemies.

Absolutely d'accord. Fights are hardly dynamic with the actual scaling, it's one shot or be one shot. Which is also devaluing health restore skills.

vor 46 Minuten schrieb ZodiacShinryu:

One of the larger problems is that endgame is a moving target for just about anyone depending on what you are looking for.

Yes indeed. This is a point only DE can resolve, if there's even any real motivation to do so. The last few things that were (quasi-) officially declared endgame were sorties, raids and onslaught. As we all know all are trivial to a properly modded player. If they want a reference for balancing they gotta work top to bottom i think. Define a baseline SOMEWHERE. Or there will always be ppl arguing "Well but i fight Lvl 9999 enemies everyday, what about me?".

vor 46 Minuten schrieb ZodiacShinryu:

The interesting point in all of this, is a focus on the "damage abilities" where (IMHO) the non-damaging abilities are the larger culprits of disruption and game breaking capabilities.

Yeah i was aiming mainly at nukes but as you say this also applies to most AOE CC abilities, like Bastille etc. Again: A raise in cost might be appropriate in cases like that, or an instance cap.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb peterc3:

There are no ults.

Yeah, because effectively all skills are spammable equally. Problem imo.

[Soketsu]

[Nitro747]

2 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

This might be simply a matter of preference after all but i think they're cooler when they "matter", if you catch my drift. Also in general i prefer skills which enhance core gameplay (shooting, melee) instead of making it redudant. but like i said: different strokes...

About Saryn: Yeah she doesn't even revolve about her 4 anymore, but casting molt and plastering it with spores 24/7 isn't quite "there" yet at least in my book.

WF still has its share of abilities which, if spammable, result in a permanently disabled battlefield, resonant banshee is probably only the worst offender atm. The aforementioned Discharge comes to mind, while i enjoy playing Mesa i feel it's far too easy to constantly recast Peacemaker to reset her crosshair, Ocativia... Srsly there's quite some examples if you think about it. Just imagine Resonant Banshee being gone, would Onslaught actually be hard all of a sudden?

So you basically just admited that you are using your own personal preferences to try and make a non existent point about an issue that was solved eons ago? Good job

"but casting molt and plastering it with spores 24/7 isn't quite "there" yet at least in my book." Seriously, for how long have you ever played this game? Or Saryn? Do you just see people playing Saryn? Because that's how you play Saryn during mindless Bere runs where you cheese the game out just to get fast affinity. Good job again. If you do this to anything above level 50 you would either die or take 44 years to kill anything. Good job again

"Also in general i prefer skills which enhance core gameplay (shooting, melee) instead of making it redudant." >> Implying that abilities are not core mechanics of the game... Dude, if you want to shoot or use melee or whatever, you just pick warframes guided towards it. Simple uh? Get Rhino, Harrow, Chroma, Valkyr, Inaros, there are a load of warframes that have abilities geared towards that instead, sheesh.

If you feel "bad" about using Mesa, don't use her, she is the cheesiest frame of them all. If you don't like using Octavia, don't use her, but don't come here saying that she disables the entire battlefield by her own. Firstly because in a team she is more of a buffer than a damage dealer since your team will be drawing aggro away from the mandachord, secondly because grineer armor is strong asf, nulifiers exists, healers and disruptors as well.

I'm still waiting for your point. What else? Vauban's Bastille? Nyx's Chaos? Oberon's Halloweed Ground? I can still deal as much damage than Banshee with Equinox, Mag and a bunch of others in Onslaught. Banshee is a no-go in Elite Onslaught and even in the normal one she is only effective up to zone 6 or so and is still, as I said, the only one that is boring because of the seemingly infinite, constant ragdoling thing. Volt's Discharge is also another ability you are trying to vilify. It barely works to kill something above level 50 and even at level 30 it only kills enemies on near it.

By this point I'm pretty sure you don't play the game, you are just spamming Hydron, Helene, Berehynia or whatever else to farm mastery ranks (all low level missions at the starting point) and getting salty about people doing what they are doing there: farming. If that is not the case, then I believe you are just a lost cause and should look for other games to play instead.

[(XBOX)Artakka]

4 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well first of all get rid of EV. Simple as that. (Or at the very least rework it in a way Trin can't replenish her own energy, too, making it a perpetuum mobile)

No no no no no no no just no. I main trinity prime in sanctuary onslaught, and I can't tell you how many times I have saved our squads ass by being able to replenish everyone's energy, as well as spamming blessing. If you take away my ability to refill my own energy, my job to keep YOU alive (because supporting other players is trinity's sole job) becomes that much harder. The majority of Ults are absolutely fine the way they are. Their ability to clear a room is counterbalanced by their lack of scaling. In the case of Banshee, her 4 Is great for low levels, as it should be, but after level 40 or so, all it does is stagger enemies. Any good banshee player does so for her sonar, not to spam her 4. Your suggestions would trash the concept of abilities and likely cause a massive uproar. No thanks.

[Nazrethim]

hace 4 horas, Trichouette dijo:

Yeah devs seem to not want cooldown, players neither.

Although I think it would be the best.

Short cooldown and "stack" feature would be neat.

(imagine ash stacking up to 10 spinning blade and being able to throw as many as he wishes, then wait 2sec for each blade to recharge.....)

 

Then make Finisher kills get another charge. So you can shorten the cooldown by doing things relevant to the frame's theme.

 

hace 4 horas, Asdryu dijo:

I think that this would fix a problem that isn't really there.
1st of all. The change to trinity: just no. No to all. Just no lol. It has been discussed many times already and it comes down that this is, a let's limit ourselves to say, "bad" idea.

How is nerfing an OBVIOUS infinite energy source broken ability a "bad" idea?

hace 4 horas, Asdryu dijo:

4th abilities should be used for "Oh ffffjidufjdju" moments, I agree on that, but many abilties would need a massive ramp up in their damages, but at this point even utility. Nekros' shadows of the dead would remain the same, but still needs to be casted enough times to mantain those.

What about making Nekros abilities not rely on energy but rather all on health? Like Despoil, except applying to all of his abilities.

hace 4 horas, Asdryu dijo:

Now, changing efficiency to an energy boost is a complexed change overall. Abilities that have a channeling aspect to them, such as Oberon's 3rd, would have to face a huge change for optimized build.

Not really. Just add a base energy regen. Then change Efficiency to increase said regen instead of reducing cost. Then make Channeled abilities drain as normal and once you turn them off your energy regen kicks in.

hace 4 horas, Asdryu dijo:

Personally, I don't understand this litte grudge that is going on against abilities. I mean: they're what makes a frame different. It's the enemy itself that either needs to be enhanced in some fields or have a fixed scaling to let us face them differently without us being exploded by their simple look of their eyes.

There isn't anything wrong with abilities actually. Except obviously broken ones like Energy Vampire. What is wrong is relentless mindless spam of abilities. It's the reason anyone who isn't running a macro hates meme strike and wants it to be nerfed to the ground (honestly I think just adding a 3s internal cooldown to it would be enough)

 

[Nitro747]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

There isn't anything wrong with abilities actually. Except obviously broken ones like Energy Vampire. What is wrong is relentless mindless spam of abilities. It's the reason anyone who isn't running a macro hates meme strike and wants it to be nerfed to the ground (honestly I think just adding a 3s internal cooldown to it would be enough)

 

You kinda miss the point that in order to make Energy Vampire yield loads of energy you need to break every other ability that Trinity has. And kinda forget about everything else. Seriously, do you guys even play the game or just do Berehynia runs?

[(XBOX)Artakka]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

How is nerfing an OBVIOUS infinite energy source broken ability a "bad" idea?

Because it's not broken lol. Trinity is a support frame that almost nobody plays anymore because few people would rather support others over just killing everything themselves. How often do you see Trinity in a regular mission? I main trinity in onslaught, and I'm not okay with this ability getting nerfed. I already cant cast it in the air. 

[Nitro747]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Young Boy HT said:

Because it's not broken lol. Trinity is a support frame that almost nobody plays anymore because few people would rather support others over just killing everything themselves. How often do you see Trinity in a regular mission? I main trinity in onslaught, and I'm not okay with this ability getting nerfed. I already cant cast it in the air. 

Next they will want to add a cooldown to the "spammable" Bless, one of the few health and shield support abilities in the game and source of protection to the squishy Trinity.

[Nazrethim]

hace 26 minutos, Nitro747 dijo:

Next they will want to add a cooldown to the "spammable" Bless, one of the few health and shield support abilities in the game and source of protection to the squishy Trinity.

Actually, if EV is gone, I wouldn't mind if Blessing returns to it's former inmunity to all form. If you limit how often abilities can be used, then you can start making them even more powerful.

So it's either infinite energy with mediocre abilities or limited resource with awesome results. Or goodish abilities with abundant but limited resource. You can see where I'm going.

[Praesagium]

hace 29 minutos, Nitro747 dijo:

Next they will want to add a cooldown to the "spammable" Bless, one of the few health and shield support abilities in the game and source of protection to the squishy Trinity.

Cant wait to see that, but seriously, what game people play when they ask for things like this

[----Fenrir----]

A lot of Warframes are designed around ability spamming and basically require it to survive in higher level content. Nerf ability usage hard and Inaros will be the new meta for basically everything since his survivability does not depend on ability usage.

[Hypernaut1]

I like the energy system where it's at. For the most part I feel like I can use my abilities whenever I need to or want. That's how it should be.

[Trichouette]

il y a une heure, Nazrethim a dit :

Then make Finisher kills get another charge. So you can shorten the cooldown by doing things relevant to the frame's theme.

Yeah you can do plenty of interesting thing by removing this dumb energy feature.

But that won't happen...

il y a 8 minutes, Hypernaut1 a dit :

I like the energy system where it's at. For the most part I feel like I can use my abilities whenever I need to or want. That's how it should be.

Unless that some abilities aren't used at all because players save their energy for the one ability they spam...

(not true for all frame though, but often...)

[(XBOX)Artakka]

3 hours ago, Nitro747 said:

Next they will want to add a cooldown to the "spammable" Bless, one of the few health and shield support abilities in the game and source of protection to the squishy Trinity.

I certainly hope not. My usage of Blessing is often what keeps me and my team going in onslaught.

2 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

A lot of Warframes are designed around ability spamming and basically require it to survive in higher level content. Nerf ability usage hard and Inaros will be the new meta for basically everything since his survivability does not depend on ability usage.

I mean... you could argue his survivability comes from his 2. After all, it makes him invincible and replenishes his health at a rapid rate.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

So you basically just admited that you are using your own personal preferences to try and make a non existent point about an issue that was solved eons ago? Good job

I'm providing feedback on ongoing issues within the game which have been there since i've started playing pretty exactly 4 years ago. Yes, of course it reflects personal preferences. Just as it seems to be your personal prefence to leave the game in it's current state. Fair enough, no reason to get sarcastic. I just wanna add that DE seem to consider spammy and AFK gameplay as problems, too, otherwise they wouldn't keep reworking skills to work against that. What i believe tho is that these are merely symptomatic solutions, infinite energy is the disease.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

"but casting molt and plastering it with spores 24/7 isn't quite "there" yet at least in my book." Seriously, for how long have you ever played this game? Or Saryn? Do you just see people playing Saryn? Because that's how you play Saryn during mindless Bere runs where you cheese the game out just to get fast affinity. Good job again. If you do this to anything above level 50 you would either die or take 44 years to kill anything. Good job again

It is true i'm not an expert with Saryn by any stretch of the imagination as i didn't find her to be particularly engaging to play so far (might change with the coming rework). Lvl 50 covers quite enough of the game tho and the "strategy" does seem quite popular from my daily gaming experience which certainly does not consist of affinity farming exclusively as i have everything maxed out with the exception of Khora and founder weapons as those just don't wanna drop for me in onslaught :I. Thanks for the rounds of applause, appreciated. Anyway DE don't seem to be satisfied either or they wouldn't consider her for yet another rework after a relatively short time, i guess.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

"Also in general i prefer skills which enhance core gameplay (shooting, melee) instead of making it redudant." >> Implying that abilities are not core mechanics of the game... Dude, if you want to shoot or use melee or whatever, you just pick warframes guided towards it. Simple uh? Get Rhino, Harrow, Chroma, Valkyr, Inaros, there are a load of warframes that have abilities geared towards that instead, sheesh.

Hm, i think this is delving into semantics... "Dude", you might actually be right. I guess my perception of gunplay being more core (nice rhyme) stems from the way the game is promoted as a 3rd person shooter. But you are right, skills are a defining trait as well. Anyway, the point i was trying to make is: Balanced use of whole arsenal according to situation = nice, varied gameplay. Pressing 4 for 20 minutes leaving guns on the ship and using melee mainly to do some combos out of boredom while waiting at extraction = meh.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

I'm still waiting for your point.

The point is still pretty much the thread title. Why are you asking me for it rhetorically again and again? All those arguments you provide suggest you got the point well enough.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

What else? Vauban's Bastille? Nyx's Chaos? Oberon's Halloweed Ground?

Bastille for sure yes, Chaos isn't as bad as enemies can still hurt you by chance, Hallowed Ground becomes quite the potent nuke with it augment, yeah... And more.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

By this point I'm pretty sure you don't play the game, you are just spamming Hydron, Helene, Berehynia or whatever else to farm mastery ranks (all low level missions at the starting point) and getting salty about people doing what they are doing there: farming. If that is not the case, then I believe you are just a lost cause and should look for other games to play instead.

Well, if you must know according to our profiles i sport pretty much twice your playtime. During that time i played every node and every mode (hey another rhyme :D) there is numerous times in numerous iterations. I know the game is and always was a spamfest to certain degrees. There were worse times than now, tho, i admitted that much already.

Dear internet person, your hostile writing style makes you seem seriously agitated by my proposals. They are just that, proposals and surely not be-alls / end-alls. If i may i'd like to continue playing Warframe regardless of being a lost cause, please? Why should i get mad at people for farming, the whole game revolves around farming. I might just as well advise you to look for another thread to comment on instead (only i'd never do that because i actually believe in verbal communication).

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Soketsu:

Oh, ok.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Young Boy HT:

If you take away my ability to refill my own energy, my job to keep YOU alive (because supporting other players is trinity's sole job) becomes that much harder.

"Much" harder than hammering your finger on the 2 and 4 buttons til they fall off still isn't particularly hard though.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Young Boy HT:

Any good banshee player does so for her sonar, not to spam her 4.

Yes, that's why Sonar shouldn't be infinitely stackable. Like i said, the fact i'm mainly writing about 4s doesn't mean other skills don't need to be looked at, too.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

You kinda miss the point that in order to make Energy Vampire yield loads of energy you need to break every other ability that Trinity has. And kinda forget about everything else. Seriously, do you guys even play the game or just do Berehynia runs?

How does that fact make EV less broken, tho? You're also exaggering, while a duration based Blessing build might not be optimal for EV it still works.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Young Boy HT:

Because it's not broken lol. Trinity is a support frame that almost nobody plays anymore because few people would rather support others over just killing everything themselves. How often do you see Trinity in a regular mission? I main trinity in onslaught, and I'm not okay with this ability getting nerfed. I already cant cast it in the air. 

She is played less since endless void missions got irrelevant. As consequence most content nowadays is rather trivial anyway. Also Zenurik happened. But IF things get tight every once in a while she's back on the menu rather quickly.

Also i don't understand why you're even defending the skill if you don't think it makes her a valuable choice.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nazrethim:

Actually, if EV is gone, I wouldn't mind if Blessing returns to it's former inmunity to all form. If you limit how often abilities can be used, then you can start making them even more powerful.

So it's either infinite energy with mediocre abilities or limited resource with awesome results. Or goodish abilities with abundant but limited resource. You can see where I'm going.

This guy got it. Thank you!

Yes, THEN nukes would be justified AND all the more fun since you're WORKING towards them, making the release actually satisfactory. Note how DE is introducing less and less traditional nukes as 4s and reworking the old ones accordingly, it's because of exactly what Nazethim described: They're (re-)balancing the game around the overabundancy of energy.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb ----Fenrir----:

A lot of Warframes are designed around ability spamming and basically require it to survive in higher level content. Nerf ability usage hard and Inaros will be the new meta for basically everything since his survivability does not depend on ability usage.

Or healing skills / more tanky builds would actually become relevant. Also AGAIN: There is SPAM and there is SPAM. I'm talking about being able to constantly rely on the most powerful skills at your disposal.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Hypernaut1:

For the most part I feel like I can use my abilities whenever I need to or want. That's how it should be.

Then why were they designed with various costs?

[Nitro747]

He is still trying lol