Dear DE, you want to avoid ability spam / AFK-"gameplay" once and for all? Solve the problem at its root: The energy economy.

[Nitro747]

3 hours ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

On that note, I would hope that any rework of zenurik would make it less boring. I normally use unairu, and in that school there are certain situations when you want to use your skills, and it doesn't have any brainless abilities like energizing dash in zenurik. There are certain situations when I would want a bullet attractor or an armor debuff on an enemy and others where it would be easier to mow them down directly. However, energy is always useful because warframes are so powerful so I always have a reason to keep energizing dash going to get more energy. As a result, using energizing dash feels like I'm keeping up a timer rather than reacting to a situation.

Because energy is so valuable, I feel that it would be better for energizing dash to give something else that would be useful (but not all the time). Perhaps a speed buff would work, which might work nicely with the speed debuff zenurik has on its void blast.

Sure, because using Void Singularity to attract enemies in a 20m radius and then using Voltaic Blast + Temporal Blast to CC enemies while you wait for Magus Nourish to kick in and get some enemies slowed down is SOOOOOO braindead, sure

Again, it really feels like you guys either just spam Hydron or just started playing the game when players would punch a nun in the face for an Energy Siphon aura. It's also kinda incredible that you guys give so much credit to Energizing Dash when in reality this only helps on the start of the mission and Zenurik's best ability of the whole tree is Energy Pulse that can quickly turn your warframe into a portable nuclear reactor. You barely need to use energizing dash if you kill enough enemies to make energy orbs drop.

Also, you just solved the non-issue that this whole thread is talking about: you just use Unairu because you prefer it but for some insane reason you think that Zenurik is so overpowered. The thing is that the other focus schools works better with some specific warframes, like Unairu for Nidus or Madurai for Saryn (if you have enough brain cells to use her outside Hydron cheese runs) while Zenurik will just be handy in most warframes. Again, a pointless thread for an issue that does not exist besides a QOL change to make us change focus schools while picking up the frame or tie them to specific build slots.

[Nitro747]

3 minutes ago, Checht said:

Did we limit ourselves to damage dealing abilities in the discussion here? The point is being able to spam certain abilities make the enemies and the game too easy. Mass AoE hard-CC abilities are such abilities.

All the CC abilities (not to mention invis abilities too) do save you from getting one-shotted by Bombard. How are you dying if the Bombard isn't even shooting at you? Spam Bastilles and cover the whole room, problem solved. Or are you saying you somehow still manage to have difficulties facing a level 80 Bombard even with all these CC abilities available to be spammed? I would like to hear more about it then.

If you haven't noticed, the OP specific mentions "ults" and DPS cast and forget spam and other stuff of the sort. If Vauban is so damn OP to you I just wonder why you barely see them outside set teams or in long endurance rooms... Oh yeah, because at some point some bullet will pass through that and kill you. Hmmmm, I wonder why people Use Chroma or Rhino or whatever else so much more than Excalibur, Vaubs, etc... 🤔

Also kinda funny you compared Discharge, Avalanche and Radial Blind with Bastille

[Checht]

3 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

If you haven't noticed, the OP specific mentions "ults" and DPS cast and forget spam and other stuff of the sort. If Vauban is so damn OP to you I just wonder why you barely see them outside set teams or in long endurance rooms... Oh yeah, because at some point some bullet will pass through that and kill you. Hmmmm, I wonder why people Use Chroma or Rhino or whatever else so much more than Excalibur, Vaubs, etc... 🤔

 

OP did not say this problem is exclusive to DPS skills. He only used Sound Quake as an example. Also, the post regarding spam spam spam that you responded to did not specify it's spamming DPS abilities that make enemies too easy.

The reason Vauban is underused is probably because he's too boring to use, not that he's not effective in what he does. Chroma is also being underused now after nerf. Rhino of course, a mindless tank + mass CC makes it easy mode for anyone using him. Stomp is just another mass hard-CC skill to spam to win.

6 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

Also kinda funny you compared Discharge, Avalanche and Radial Blind with Bastille

All are AoE hard-CC abilities. Spot the similarities?

[Nitro747]

Just now, Checht said:

OP did not say this problem is exclusive to DPS skills. He only used Sound Quake as an example. Also, the post regarding spam spam spam that you responded to did not specify it's spamming DPS abilities that make enemies too easy.

The reason Vauban is underused is probably because he's too boring to use, not that he's not effective in what he does. Chroma is also being underused now after nerf. Rhino of course, a mindless tank + mass CC makes it easy mode for anyone using him. Stomp is just another mass hard-CC skill to spam to win.

All are AoE hard-CC abilities. Spot the similarities?

>>Calls Chroma's fix a "nerf"

I lay my previous case, I really don't need to say anything else (specially when you compare Bastille with Avalanche).

Also this: "Stomp is just another mass hard-CC skill to spam to win."

[Checht]

Just now, Nitro747 said:

>>Calls Chroma's fix a "nerf"

I would call fixing by reducing ability potency to be a nerf. By the way, nerf doesn't necessarily mean bad. Nerfs are needed to balance the game. In this case, it's fixed via nerfing.

2 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

I lay my previous case, I really don't need to say anything else (specially when you compare Bastille with Avalanche).

Also this: "Stomp is just another mass hard-CC skill to spam to win."

Unsubstantiated post is unsubstantiated.

[motorfirebox]

Every frame needs an individualized way to regenerate energy. Ember should light things on fire to gain energy, Saryn should pop spores to gain energy, etcetera. The Nidus model, basically. More abstract frames, like Mirage and Loki, will be more difficult to come up with mechanics for, but that's what I think the game really needs.

[Nitro747]

18 minutes ago, Checht said:

I would call fixing by reducing ability potency to be a nerf. By the way, nerf doesn't necessarily mean bad. Nerfs are needed to balance the game. In this case, it's fixed via nerfing.

Unsubstantiated post is unsubstantiated.

Oh, ok, now you are calling an engine error that gave him a 25000% damage buff a "fix (but actually a nerf)" after I called that out. Ok...

Either way, both the OP, you and anyone else making such a ruckus about a problem that does not exist outside very few specific low level situations with specific builds does not understand that Warframe is a horde game, does not understand basic modding and the tradeoffs of spam builds or doesn't even understand how this game works in general. It doesn't matter if you lock an entire room knowing that at one point a bullet will pass through and kill you, it doesn't matter if you cheese bastilles in Xini knowing that at one point there will be dozens of Energy Leech Eximus crawling on your face and it doesn't matter if you stomp 44 times when the ability itself has limited duration, can't kill anything above certain levels and you will eventually get shot in the face and get killed rather quickly. It's almost as if you guys only played Bere/Hydron and think that a lvl 30 mission where people use to farm relics/affinity is THE ultimate meta in the game 🙄. Good luck with those builds and spams outside those situations. You guys could complain about meme strike because THAT is the spam annoying thing in the game and thank goodness its already getting nerfed soon™️. 

It's as I said before: it's a pointless thread whining about a non-existent issue. You can kind of already notice it by how the "haha" react has so many clicks on it.

Also: nulifiers, disruptors, leeches and even armor itself are asking themvelses "what the heck are these dudes talking about?"

Combas and Scrambuses came by to say hello as well.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Nitro747

[Checht]

12 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

It doesn't matter if you lock an entire room knowing that at one point a bullet will pass through and kill you, it doesn't matter if you cheese bastilles in Xini knowing that at one point there will be dozens of Energy Leech Eximus crawling on your face and it doesn't matter if you stomp 44 times when the ability itself has limited duration, can't kill anything above certain levels and you will eventually get shot in the face and get killed rather quickly.

At what level though? At level 200 or 300+, it'll be true when even a lancer could one-shot you. For the relevant content, at level 80-100, spamming these skills are still a very easy way out. Also, DE doesn't balance for long endurance runs.

Stomp isn't meant to kill enemies. It's mainly for CC. Get a maxed Fleeting Expertise + P Continuity and you already have 40 energy cost for a 25 m radius CC with a duration of 7.6 s. That is 4.75 energy cost per second if you recast Stomp at the end of the stun duration every time, which is already lower than the energy regen rate of Zenurik at 5 energy per second. Also, this is already assuming that you don't have any energy pickup, only energy regen from Zenurik. You would have a lot more surplus in the real case. This is only with 2 mods, it can be easily made more spammable with other additional mods.

22 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

It's almost as if you guys only played Bere/Hydron and think that a lvl 30 mission where people use to farm relics/affinity is THE ultimate meta in the game 🙄. Good luck with those builds and spams outside those situations.

It seems that you can only resort to baseless accusations every time. Trust me, they're only useful in convincing yourself, not everyone else. The game is easy, even at high levels. Going up to 60 minutes in Mot used to take some effort. Now it's easily achievable by just spamming these abilities.

27 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

Also: nulifiers, disruptors, leeches and even armor itself are asking themvelses "what the heck are these dudes talking about?"

Combas and Scrambuses came by to say hello as well.

Exactly, these guys are here to prevent us from spamming abilities. If you have to resort to restricting us from spamming abilities in order for us to face some difficulties, that's precisely the point isn't it? We don't face difficulties or challenges when we can just spam these abilities.

[Nitro747]

4 minutes ago, Checht said:

At what level though? At level 200 or 300+, it'll be true when even a lancer could one-shot you. For the relevant content, at level 80-100, spamming these skills are still a very easy way out. Also, DE doesn't balance for long endurance runs.

Stomp isn't meant to kill enemies. It's mainly for CC. Get a maxed Fleeting Expertise + P Continuity and you already have 40 energy cost for a 25 m radius CC with a duration of 7.6 s. That is 4.75 energy cost per second if you recast Stomp at the end of the stun duration every time, which is already lower than the energy regen rate of Zenurik at 5 energy per second. Also, this is already assuming that you don't have any energy pickup, only energy regen from Zenurik. You would have a lot more surplus in the real case. This is only with 2 mods, it can be easily made more spammable with other additional mods.

It seems that you can only resort to baseless accusations every time. Trust me, they're only useful in convincing yourself, not everyone else. The game is easy, even at high levels. Going up to 60 minutes in Mot used to take some effort. Now it's easily achievable by just spamming these abilities.

Exactly, these guys are here to prevent us from spamming abilities. If you have to resort to restricting us from spamming abilities in order for us to face some difficulties, that's precisely the point isn't it? We don't face difficulties or challenges when we can just spam these abilities.

These are not baseless accusations, you are just proving the entire point by yourself. You just ignored everything I just said. Doesn't matter if you "can" use Stomp once every 8 seconds and use a build around it if you will be left with no power strength or whatever else Rhino needs to be good for a decent build. You cast Stomp, enemies in a 20m are will be locked, the enemies 21m away from you will shoot and kill you naturally. Either this or you run out of life support. Or you take 45 years to complete the defense mission. You are just making the game harder on yourself, and now you are here inventing a problem by yourself and complaining about the thing you invented. It's like bringing a Resonating Banshee to ESO, spam it infinitely and then wonder why you aren't going past zone 1 (let me tell you: it's either because you didn't kill anything or because there was a nulifier who sniped you or a bombard rocket that reached you).

And no, Nulifiers are there because the Corpus needed something to protect themselves because they lack OP armor and the infested units that made them strong. When nulifiers came out, it was waaay back in the time that this thread would actually mean something. You can still cast whatever ability (or spam, as you like to call) you want as long as you are outside the very visible bubble otherwise you will have to recast any buff you had and will probably die if you stay inside there too long... Which is exactly the same reason why people generally dislikes nulifiers and Corpus in general and are asking to fix some annoying stuff about nullies, just how DE is doing with Combas and Scrambuses.

[(PSN)Cyotis]

Please leave this unique game as is. Do not turn it into an MMO with cool downs. Keep adjusting the the issues you see DE. Thank you for a sweet game!

[Checht]

22 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

These are not baseless accusations, you are just proving the entire point by yourself.

What base do you have to say that we only play Hydron/Bere at level 30? Just because you somehow still manage to have a difficult time outside of Hydron/Bere even with all these abilities spammable doesn't mean that we don't find them easy.

22 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

Doesn't matter if you "can" use Stomp once every 8 seconds and use a build around it if you will be left with no power strength or whatever else Rhino needs to be good for a decent build. You cast Stomp, enemies in a 20m are will be locked, the enemies 21m away from you will shoot and kill you naturally. Either this or you run out of life support.

25 m, but I'll just skip the details. Mod a little for range and you can cover the whole room, if you're not already (25 m radius at Base is larger than most AoE skills). So, the only challenge is running out of time, huh? You don't even need to worry about dying. Making the challenge "to kill fast" isn't really what the player base wants. Just look at the reception towards the Efficiency counter in Onslaughts. Also, get a good weapon and you can still kill fast enough after casting Stomp for any relevant content.

Also, making Stomp spammable only takes 2 mods, as I have illustrated in my previous post. You still have lots of mod slots for power strength. 

22 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

Or you take 45 years to complete the defense mission.

Exaggerating stuff really helps your point here.

22 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

It's like bringing a Resonating Banshee to ESO, spam it infinitely and then wonder why you aren't going past zone 1 (let me tell you: it's either because you didn't kill anything or because there was a nulifier who sniped you or a bombard rocket that reached you).

Lol, spamming 4 isn't even possible in ESO to begin with. Have you even played ESO? Also, Zone 1 in ESO is easy.

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Checht

[Somb3rBivalve]

1 hour ago, Nitro747 said:

Oh, ok, now you are calling an engine error that gave him a 25000% damage buff a "fix (but actually a nerf)" after I called that out. Ok...

Either way, both the OP, you and anyone else making such a ruckus about a problem that does not exist outside very few specific low level situations with specific builds does not understand that Warframe is a horde game, does not understand basic modding and the tradeoffs of spam builds or doesn't even understand how this game works in general. It doesn't matter if you lock an entire room knowing that at one point a bullet will pass through and kill you, it doesn't matter if you cheese bastilles in Xini knowing that at one point there will be dozens of Energy Leech Eximus crawling on your face and it doesn't matter if you stomp 44 times when the ability itself has limited duration, can't kill anything above certain levels and you will eventually get shot in the face and get killed rather quickly. It's almost as if you guys only played Bere/Hydron and think that a lvl 30 mission where people use to farm relics/affinity is THE ultimate meta in the game 🙄. Good luck with those builds and spams outside those situations. You guys could complain about meme strike because THAT is the spam annoying thing in the game and thank goodness its already getting nerfed soon™️. 

It's as I said before: it's a pointless thread whining about a non-existent issue. You can kind of already notice it by how the "haha" react has so many clicks on it.

Also: nulifiers, disruptors, leeches and even armor itself are asking themvelses "what the heck are these dudes talking about?"

Combas and Scrambuses came by to say hello as well.

Well my statement was basically only targeted at energizing dash, not the rest of zenurik. The rest of zenurik seems to be fairly balanced, but it's energy pulse (like you said) and energizing dash that make zenurik the king of focus schools right now. So I might have been a little misleading there.

Now, I realize that energy pulse also gets you a lot of energy, but as a passive, something that is always happening in the background, it seems to be filling that role correctly. Could it use a nerf? Maybe, but not a rework as in the case of energizing dash, which is why I didn't mention it. Whereas most other active abilities in the other focus schools should be used in a specific time, energizing dash can be used anytime because it is always useful, which is why I think it needs changes beyond a simple nerf or buff.

Well the "insane reason" (I don't think it's particularly insane) I think zenurik is OP (the more appropriate term is that it is more frequently chosen) is that it gives energy, so it is universally applicable to all warframes. In addition, because warframe powers are by far the most powerful tools players have in this game, allowing us to cast more of them with more energy gives the player a lot more power in a way that is uninteresting because you just use more of your normal warframe powers rather than finding synergies between a particular focus school and the warframe you are using.

1 hour ago, Nitro747 said:

Oh, ok, now you are calling an engine error that gave him a 25000% damage buff a "fix (but actually a nerf)" after I called that out. Ok...

Either way, both the OP, you and anyone else making such a ruckus about a problem that does not exist outside very few specific low level situations with specific builds does not understand that Warframe is a horde game, does not understand basic modding and the tradeoffs of spam builds or doesn't even understand how this game works in general. It doesn't matter if you lock an entire room knowing that at one point a bullet will pass through and kill you, it doesn't matter if you cheese bastilles in Xini knowing that at one point there will be dozens of Energy Leech Eximus crawling on your face and it doesn't matter if you stomp 44 times when the ability itself has limited duration, can't kill anything above certain levels and you will eventually get shot in the face and get killed rather quickly. It's almost as if you guys only played Bere/Hydron and think that a lvl 30 mission where people use to farm relics/affinity is THE ultimate meta in the game 🙄. Good luck with those builds and spams outside those situations. You guys could complain about meme strike because THAT is the spam annoying thing in the game and thank goodness its already getting nerfed soon™️. 

It's as I said before: it's a pointless thread whining about a non-existent issue. You can kind of already notice it by how the "haha" react has so many clicks on it.

Also: nulifiers, disruptors, leeches and even armor itself are asking themvelses "what the heck are these dudes talking about?"

Combas and Scrambuses came by to say hello as well.

The fact that one bullet can kill you is an example of how time-to-kill is very low in this game (which leads to unfair situations like you just described), but that is an entirely separate issue from what we are talking about because it involves enemy power rather than player power. If we made players less unfair by reducing our ability to spam abilities, then we could justifiably make enemies more fair by introducing systems like shield gating, more fair attack patterns, less one-shot kills, etc. As it stands right now, the unfair deaths like the one bullet coming out of nowhere is the only way enemies can kill us because we have so much ability spam they can't counter us in a fair way.

[Derethevil]

I think the bigger issue is what i heard often enough. 
DE doesn't like it when we cheese things, yet instead of taking out those things that make us "cheese" the game, they implement either more bandaid enemies like Nullifiers, or they simply nerf one Warframe after another into the ground. (Look at Ember, Chroma, etc.)

So in that sense they force us to cheese the game if they make things harder and harder. 
Either that or they aren't really sure what they want their game to be. A horde shooter? Leave it as it is, don't nerf things. A fast paced action shooter? Take out the "manmaingenitalblocking" enemies and don't make players come to a screeching halt everytime a enemy snipes you from across the map or block every ability you have.

The worst toxic part of the community is simply those who always scream for a nerf of a Warframe, even if they never spend a second on playing that Frame, trying to understand what makes them special there and why they think that would be OP. Look at Chroma. 
"Oneshotting" Eidolons. My sittingflesh! (Sorry i am not allowed to swear appearently cause of prudes..) 
I can oneshot Eidolons with Trinity too without needing any buff from others. Surely Chroma had it easy since his Vex Armor had that double dipping bug. But instead of fixing the damn calculation they change it completely. To top it off also his Armor itself. Nerfing him into the ground. Give me back my survivability on him and i am fine again. Keep the damn damage.
Ember. I am sorry when new players only see Ember players rushing through their low level mission. But that pretty much was the best she can do. Making something tedious, something players did NOT enjoy but feel forced to do, a bit more less annoying. Then she gets nerfed.

I will always be the one who asks for buffs for others, if some Warframes outperform them. Even if this will always be a problem. The bigger issue however is that we are talking about a damn PvE game. There is no real "balancing" PvE characters if they aren't running a round, nuking the entire map with a press of a button. (If they can do that, then we can talk about a nerf.)
Otherwise it is just plain stupid to nerf Warframes just because they can perform well in one damn single category. Oh so Chroma were able to facetank even 200 heavy gunners? Oh so Ember were able to rush through low level missions with her WoF?
There will always be a Warframe that will get used to try to minimize the "grind" or real tedious stuff in t his game. If we nerf them all into the ground they could essentialy delete all Warframes at once except Excalibur, since they will all be the same then anyway. 
Think about that for a second. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Derethevil

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

If you haven't noticed, the OP specific mentions "ults" and DPS cast and forget spam and other stuff of the sort.

 

Am 12.5.2018 um 16:07 schrieb Kotsender_Quasimir:

Yes, it's OK to be able to rely on your BNB skills MOST of the time when built accordingly but i strongly feel like this should not apply to Ults (4s, mostly)

__________

 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

Again, it really feels like you guys either just spam Hydron or just started playing the game (...)

What does your daily routine consist of if may ask? In all seriousness: What game mode is NOT trivialized by infinite energy?

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

You can kind of already notice it by how the "haha" react has so many clicks on it

Well, needless to say popularity doesn't make a sentiment correct automatically... But if you do wanna follow that false logic: So far i got 6 hahas and 2 woahs facing 4 likes, 5 upvotes and one round of applause... "We" win. 😛

[DJ_Vauban]

I literally read through every single post in this thread and all it makes me think of is that it's "Another one of those "make Warframe more like CoD, Halo, whathaveyou."

Let's say this change happens, what then? People who were completely fine with the energy economy will then start complaining about how "the change took everyhting away that Warframe used to be." Then another, yet similar argument will start how we need to have MORE energy and no cooldown's on our ults which basically brings us back to the current Warframe. You literally just swap the roles of the people who complain and who don't.

You simply can't make everyone happy, those who only use weapons will complain when weapons get nerfed. Those who only use abilities will complain when they get nerfed. Heck, people will even start complaining when pets get buffed for whatever dumb reason as well. There's also the fact that those players who are fine with something don't visit the Forums to talk about how amazing X is because there's no need to for them, so while this thread got a bunch of people FOR this change, it doesn't have as many who are against it, because they simply don't visit the forums because they're A-okay with it or simply don't give a damn.

Personally I am fine with the way the energy and abiilties are handled, heck I tend to not even use them at times because the weapons are just so powerful themselves. I just can't be bothered writing a wall of text why x is a bad idea anymore because, after all, this is DE's game and they are the ones who will decide what happens with the game, not us.

I can already tell that this thread will either go on for ever or be closed by a mod, might just be a hunch. Do me a favor and don't start throwing insults at each other, will you?

Edited May 14, 2018 by DJ_Vauban

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb DJ_Vauban:

after all, this is DE's game and they are the ones who will decide what happens with the game, not us.

That much is certainly true, as well as

vor 2 Stunden schrieb DJ_Vauban:

You simply can't make everyone happy

_______

Well, there is a conflict of interests and i'm obviously on the side of people who'd like things to change. I understand change means risking to alienate a big part of the playerbase. The only "objective" reasoning i can really come up with regarding to sentence no.1 above:

DE originally designed energy and skill costs to work a certain way. Then powercreep happened and now the whole system seems almost redundant, like why even have an energy meter and varied skill costs at all anymore? So i think things got out of hand for them and now they're forced to design skills around that, excuse my wording, hard to control mess. That is why i'd argue that what i proposed is actually also in DEs "best interest" as in: in line with what i believe was their original intent. I understand i might be totally wrong about that but there are certainly signs i might be right like how they're experimenting with cooldowns in elite onslaught recently or this aforementioned quote:

Am 12.5.2018 um 16:38 schrieb Kotsender_Quasimir:

"(...) we don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game (...)" source: https://www.warframe.com/news/the-remote-observer-vol-14

I wouldn't really know how to win someone over who feels things are for the best the way they are. I can only throw out some speculations why i believe it'd change the overall gameplay experience for the better:

- Skills would still be there and still be vital, probably even more so, as they'd "count" more

- Coop aspect would be boosted considerably

- Gameplay would become more varied as no single META would be available 100% of the time

- Enemy units wouldn't have to be designed unfairly to pose at least a hint at an actual challenge

- I'd even argue that the dreaded grind (the whole game is a grind tho) would actually fly by faster subjectively when you're more on your toes while playing

etc.

Thanks for your contribution, hoping things will stay civil myself.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir
added quote

[Dr.Wuzzah]

Well here's the thing, OP wanted to rework the energy system so you get energy over time (affected by mods) which would slow down energy gain and spam. Ofc that depends on the rates you fix them at, because currently I don't need an ev trin for anything with just zenurik. That's a flat out change that I'm indifferent to as long as its reasonable because its not necessarily a buff or a nerf.

@Checht just thinks abilities are op which running solo or with your own squad would very easily make that seem like the case. Pub eidolon hunts or eso would probably do the opposite. He wants to nerf A LOT of abilities so they have limited effects. This is problematic for several reasons. Grind vs difficulty, awe factor and the enticing nature of frames. To sum it up it's a lazy solution to balance that could push people away from the game. He's not wrong though (like Thanos). But as we've seen recently, DE are capable of providing us with a challenging end game, that only becomes easy when you have the right team for the job like eso or tridolon.

Unfortunetly the latter is not part of OP's thread and should be discussed on @Checht thread.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Dr.Wuzzah
Grammar

[Asdryu]

On 2018-05-12 at 9:01 PM, Nazrethim said:

Then make Finisher kills get another charge. So you can shorten the cooldown by doing things relevant to the frame's theme.

 

How is nerfing an OBVIOUS infinite energy source broken ability a "bad" idea?

What about making Nekros abilities not rely on energy but rather all on health? Like Despoil, except applying to all of his abilities.

Not really. Just add a base energy regen. Then change Efficiency to increase said regen instead of reducing cost. Then make Channeled abilities drain as normal and once you turn them off your energy regen kicks in.

There isn't anything wrong with abilities actually. Except obviously broken ones like Energy Vampire. What is wrong is relentless mindless spam of abilities. It's the reason anyone who isn't running a macro hates meme strike and wants it to be nerfed to the ground (honestly I think just adding a 3s internal cooldown to it would be enough)

 

Here we go again.
1) Straigt up NERFING EV, you're using the word NERFING here, is STUPID period. Changing is ok in a way that it's not use it and forget it just like nobody wants. To make EV useful you're dedicating an entire build for it, turning the others to be nearly useless. It needs a change where duration and possibly strength should be a good thing rather than a bad one.
2) There's no frame that uses just another resource other than energy. Equilibrium is really useless in mid level missions and in fact nobody is using it outside Nekros. This would make it even more obsolete.
3) Yes. Let's make obsolete a change that we fought for years to have it just because someone wants a little change out of the blue.
4) And this is why I keep thinking that people are just yelling with their pitchforks and there's just nothing that I can do to prove myself wrong.
We went from abilities to yet again the stereotype that people who use maiming strike only use it with a macro to cheese absolutely everything in the game. Hopefully, DE won't give much of a damn about this and leave maiming as it is since the real problem with it seems to be range and walls. I in fact used it sometimes with venka prime and four riders with it to get incredibly satsfying strong bleeds.
The OP made it clear that his idea would be in favor of stopping the mindless nerfs that sometimes happens making everyone who were able to appreciate their favorite frames sad, while you're clearly in the hatred pitchfork kind of form who just wants to see everyone rocking this meta to their knees.

On 2018-05-12 at 9:41 PM, Nazrethim said:

Actually, if EV is gone, I wouldn't mind if Blessing returns to it's former inmunity to all form. If you limit how often abilities can be used, then you can start making them even more powerful.

So it's either infinite energy with mediocre abilities or limited resource with awesome results. Or goodish abilities with abundant but limited resource. You can see where I'm going.

Oh yes, of course, because straight up immortality to all frames isn't broken.
It's like we've forgotten that Arcane Energize exsists and everyone would be this time rightfully mad if nerfs happens on it because it's a damn rare resource to obtain and usually comes from what can be called end game.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

Nerf everything. Everybody gets the same gun. No more mods. Just one single ability everybody can use. You know....with a little bit of effort we can turn this game into Destiny 2.5. 

 

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)BOSS_TPH76:

Nerf everything. Everybody gets the same gun. No more mods. Just one single ability everybody can use. You know....with a little bit of effort we can turn this game into Destiny 2.5.

Does Elite Onslaught feel like Destiny? I'm actually curious, never played it (Destiny i mean).

Edited May 15, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Somb3rBivalve]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Nerf everything. Everybody gets the same gun. No more mods. Just one single ability everybody can use. You know....with a little bit of effort we can turn this game into Destiny 2.5. 

It is possible to have things that are different yet balanced with each other.

If we nerfed zenurik such that it didn't have such a wide applicability to all situations (by giving energy), players would have a true choice to make about what focus school they want. That aspect of choice and equally interesting options with different pros and cons (I think) would make the game way better. In fact, if it was rebalanced with that result, then these changes would actually have the opposite effect of what you are currently describing since all the other options we have would get used more.

[Checht]

On 2018-05-14 at 1:03 PM, Dr.Wuzzah said:

@Checht just thinks abilities are op which running solo or with your own squad would very easily make that seem like the case. Pub eidolon hunts or eso would probably do the opposite. He wants to nerf A LOT of abilities so they have limited effects. This is problematic for several reasons. Grind vs difficulty, awe factor and the enticing nature of frames. To sum it up it's a lazy solution to balance that could push people away from the game. He's not wrong though (like Thanos). But as we've seen recently, DE are capable of providing us with a challenging end game, that only becomes easy when you have the right team for the job like eso or tridolon.

Unfortunetly the latter is not part of OP's thread and should be discussed on @Checht thread.

Some* abilities are OP. I'm pretty much in agreement with @Kotsender_Quasimir actually. Imbalanced abilities are imbalanced due to 2 factors, potency and spammability. A powerful ability wouldn't be imbalanced if it isn't spammable. A spammable ability isn't imbalanced if it isn't too potent.

@Kotsender_Quasimir's suggestions basically solves the issue of spammability, while also balancing focus schools by extension. By having base energy regen for frames that is lower than the current Zenurik regen, and removing regen from Zenurik, this would fix the issue of spammability while making all focus schools to have relatively equal effectiveness. However, by only nerfing energy economy, the problem is that powerful abilities may still overshadow other abilities, as players may just save up energy for the powerful abilities and not using weaker abilities. @Kotsender_Quasimir has also suggested a fix for this, which is to revise the energy cost system of 25/50/75/100. For example, Discharge is definitely worth much more than 4 casts of Shock.

However, I still think that there are some abilities that should be nerfed in terms of potency. As discussed in my thread, Radial Blind's range and duration should be nerfed, but keep it "spammable". In my opinion, Radial Blind should be a staple ability to Excalibur. It fits him as a sword-based frame, and provides reliable health restoration if you have Exodia Might or Life Strike. Thus, Excalibur should be able to use it frequently. However, the current range is too large and you can just spam to neutralize whole room of enemies.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Checht

[Dr.Wuzzah]

On 2018-05-12 at 10:07 AM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Yes, there's no way around it. Instead of repeatedly redesigning skills and mods on the basis of constant availability of all skills in equal measure let's look at the latter as the problem. Yes, it's OK to be able to rely on your BNB skills MOST of the time when built accordingly but i strongly feel like this should not apply to Ults...

 My plea: Rather swing the hammer big time once and fix things at the root, so in the grand scheme of things this is actually hopefully an anti-nerf thread XD...

Nothing about potency. In fact he's suggesting an energy rework to avoid ability reworks.

Your talk about removing Zenurik... he says it would be mandatory. You even quoted me telling me I posted something similar instead of the opposite.

[Checht]

5 hours ago, Dr.Wuzzah said:

Nothing about potency. In fact he's suggesting an energy rework to avoid ability reworks.

That's why I said you need both potency and spammability for an ability to be overpowered or imbalanced. If you remove its spammability, you make it no longer overpowered. This is similar to my idea of introducing cooldown or jack up energy consumption for Discharge and Smoke Screen.

I am in agreement in @Kotsender_Quasimir's idea in the approach of restricting spammability of powerful skills. It's just that I feel that some skills should stay "spammable" but be made less potent.

5 hours ago, Dr.Wuzzah said:

Your talk about removing Zenurik... he says it would be mandatory. You even quoted me telling me I posted something similar instead of the opposite. 

OP is talking in the context where if EV is nerfed, Zenurik becomes more mandatory than it is now. OP isn't advocating for Zenurik to be made mandatory. OP's suggestion is to have base energy regen for each frame instead, and it is implied from OP's post to not have energy regen from Zenurik.

On 2018-05-12 at 10:07 AM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

That leaves Zenurik... Yes this would make this focus school even more mandatory than it is already.
My suggestion is a built-in energy regeneration for ALL frames and also changing efficiency mods to regen boost mods. This way it'd be relatively simple to define a baseline / maximum in ability casting frequency. Let's say with a full fleeting + streamline setup allow a replenishing rate that'd result in being able to cast a nuke every 7 seconds or so. Don't quote me on the exact numbers, that's up to you really. To avoid making duration based / exalted ults inappropriately superior fall-offs like WoF would have to be introduced but not neccessarily as strict. This is another issue really, would need playtesting...

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Checht

[Nazrethim]

hace 7 horas, Asdryu dijo:

Here we go again.
1) Straigt up NERFING EV, you're using the word NERFING here, is STUPID period. Changing is ok in a way that it's not use it and forget it just like nobody wants

Funny, I actually proposed a rework for Trinity that adressed that without being a straight nerf. You can read it here:

Spoiler

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/831038-trinity-rework-is-better-than-nerf/

 

hace 7 horas, Asdryu dijo:

We went from abilities to yet again the stereotype that people who use maiming strike only use it with a macro to cheese absolutely everything in the game. Hopefully, DE won't give much of a damn about this and leave maiming as it is since the real problem with it seems to be range and walls. I in fact used it sometimes with venka prime and four riders with it to get incredibly satsfying strong bleeds.

Maiming Strike only needs a 3 seconds internal cooldown.

hace 7 horas, Asdryu dijo:

The OP made it clear that his idea would be in favor of stopping the mindless nerfs that sometimes happens making everyone who were able to appreciate their favorite frames sad, while you're clearly in the hatred pitchfork kind of form who just wants to see everyone rocking this meta to their knees.

The problem is that the "meta" is so ludicrously broken that makes pretty much impossible to add actual endgame where you test your skill and wits and not how much you grinded. It also makes the whole broken enemy scaling a necesity, as well as other bs mechanics (hello energy leeches!) if only to sort of counter  our broken builds (not that it works depending on case).