Dear DE, you want to avoid ability spam / AFK-"gameplay" once and for all? Solve the problem at its root: The energy economy.

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I think the powercreep of Warframe is really in the mods and not necessarily in the weapons being added.

That's a good point. Mods are definitely an enabler in terms of powercreep. What with Serration and such granting the massive bonuses they do, they help make more powerful weapons almost exponentially better.

The question is, what if mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, and Point Blank granted substantially lower bonuses, like say 50-60% at most?

[DatDarkOne]

22 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

That's a good point. Mods are definitely an enabler in terms of powercreep. What with Serration and such granting the massive bonuses they do, they help make more powerful weapons almost exponentially better.

The question is, what if mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, and Point Blank granted substantially lower bonuses, like say 50-60% at most?

That would be interesting.  At least to me. 😄

A few months back I ranked up the Ether Daggers after getting them again during the PoE event. I noticed them being quite nice with the current rank of my mods.  This is in direct comparison to when I first used them back when I was a newer player without any fully ranked mods.  This lead me to realize that powercreep wasn't in the weapons, but the mods.  

How many Tenno have tried going back to older weapons and seeing just how those same weapons perform now after getting maxed ranked or the newer mods.  They might be surprised at what they find.  

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

Good ideas, Kotsender! Ever since I started playing Warframe, I've hated the energy economy. Especially after playing Dark Sector on Xbox 360 and then joining DE's foray into Free-To-Play with Warframe on PC. 

The powers on Dark Sector had to recharge and felt natural. You had to use cover, your weapons, and stealth. You could use any of your powers at any time, but you had to be intelligent about when to use them because of the recharge. 

Warframe is great in that you can use your powers anytime you want, but you need the energy. Enemies drop energy orbs, you can mod for energy efficiency, or mod for more energy supply. 

The problem with Warframe is that your energy doesn't naturally recharge, your powers don't have cool downs (most of them), and the game play emphasizes spamming these powers. 

The three points above reflect what could be called bad game design on DE's part. The three points also represent the evolving nature of Warframe as a whole and aren't necessarily a bad thing. 

Warframe has a lot of disjointed parts that work, but not necessarily as well as they could. 

I really wish when it came to things like the energy economy in Warframe, powers would function on a recharge delay and the difficulty of enemy encounters would reflect this. 

If you use your "ultimate" it should provide enough of a benefit that you wouldn't have to spam it again and again. 

A solution I had thought of after first playing the game was to put powers on a recharge delay and have them cost much less energy (than they do now), but they would be able to be used again before the delay ended at an increasing energy cost. 

Power efficiency mods would lower the cost of powers while duration mods would decrease the time limit of the recharge delay. Strength mods meanwhile, would add more power strength, but increase the recharge delay slightly. 

Energy Economy is something that really needs to be addressed in Warframe as well as melee (currently under consideration), cohesive story, and DE's recent decision to increase the grind for newer gear. 

A good example of something that now feels like a part of the game as opposed to a tacked on bit are the Operators and the Focus System rework. When originally implemented Operators felt like a neat idea and Focus was interesting, but none of it was useful until the Plains of Eidolon update actually giving Operators useful skills instead of just having them as interesting (and frustrating) time sinks for semi-useful Focus bonuses. 

 

[DatDarkOne]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)ZenithLord 42 said:

Good ideas, Kotsender! Ever since I started playing Warframe, I've hated the energy economy. Especially after playing Dark Sector on Xbox 360 and then joining DE's foray into Free-To-Play with Warframe on PC. 

The powers on Dark Sector had to recharge and felt natural. You had to use cover, your weapons, and stealth. You could use any of your powers at any time, but you had to be intelligent about when to use them because of the recharge. 

Warframe is great in that you can use your powers anytime you want, but you need the energy. Enemies drop energy orbs, you can mod for energy efficiency, or mod for more energy supply. 

The problem with Warframe is that your energy doesn't naturally recharge, your powers don't have cool downs (most of them), and the game play emphasizes spamming these powers. 

The three points above reflect what could be called bad game design on DE's part. The three points also represent the evolving nature of Warframe as a whole and aren't necessarily a bad thing. 

Warframe has a lot of disjointed parts that work, but not necessarily as well as they could. 

I really wish when it came to things like the energy economy in Warframe, powers would function on a recharge delay and the difficulty of enemy encounters would reflect this. 

If you use your "ultimate" it should provide enough of a benefit that you wouldn't have to spam it again and again. 

A solution I had thought of after first playing the game was to put powers on a recharge delay and have them cost much less energy (than they do now), but they would be able to be used again before the delay ended at an increasing energy cost. 

Power efficiency mods would lower the cost of powers while duration mods would decrease the time limit of the recharge delay. Strength mods meanwhile, would add more power strength, but increase the recharge delay slightly. 

Energy Economy is something that really needs to be addressed in Warframe as well as melee (currently under consideration), cohesive story, and DE's recent decision to increase the grind for newer gear. 

A good example of something that now feels like a part of the game as opposed to a tacked on bit are the Operators and the Focus System rework. When originally implemented Operators felt like a neat idea and Focus was interesting, but none of it was useful until the Plains of Eidolon update actually giving Operators useful skills instead of just having them as interesting (and frustrating) time sinks for semi-useful Focus bonuses. 

 

All of your points seem good until you remember the channeled abilities and how they work.    

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

That's a good point. Mods are definitely an enabler in terms of powercreep. What with Serration and such granting the massive bonuses they do, they help make more powerful weapons almost exponentially better.

The question is, what if mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, and Point Blank granted substantially lower bonuses, like say 50-60% at most?

Heck no! Power creep is a symptom of enemies that scale infinitely without regards to player level. Most games make the enemies harder by increasing health and the damage output on enemies. 

Players must respond to increasing enemy difficulty by having better guns with more damage and having characters with more health. 

Warframe eschews these strategies by letting the player equip mods to make the weapons function the way the player wants. It also allows players to mod Warframes the way they want as well. 

The problems that appear due to the modding system is that you can make gear very powerful, but only by using very selective builds.  Sure you can mod your Warframe for 348% power strength, but 6 of your 10 mod slots will be full and you'll be left with negative stats in both duration and efficiency for your trouble. 

The issue of power creep is mainly due to enemies staying the same when the devs, in trying to give players more ways to play by increasing options, give players ways to cheese content by using mods that when added together, can essentially make whatever content that they created irrelevant. 

Which is super frustrating because you can easily reach insane levels of damage with some gear due to the small, but multiplicative effects when they are added together. 

The only way to really combat power creep is to make enemies and players have flat inherent damage values that do not change and to make the mods only change things like what damage type weapons do or add interesting effects other than the varieties of mods and options we have now. 

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

22 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

All of your points seem good until you remember the channeled abilities and how they work.    

I know and I wasn't addressing those directly. I think a good idea would be to leave those alone, but any channeled abilities that are damage dealing would probably have an increasing energy cost as they are left on. 

Another idea would be to have very low energy costs until enemies are affected. Using World on Fire as an example energy wouldn't drain much until an enemy caught fire. 

You also could implement a cooldown on a channeled power in which you cannot activate the power unless you have enough energy to keep the power until the cooldown ends. It would be the same as activation energy cost, but it would drain over time. 

Perhaps you could get the energy not used during the cooldown back, but only after the cooldown ends? 

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ZenithLord 42 said:

I know and I wasn't addressing those directly. I think a good idea would be to leave those alone, but any channeled abilities that are damage dealing would probably have an increasing energy cost as they are left on. 

Another idea would be to have very low energy costs until enemies are affected. Using World on Fire as an example energy wouldn't drain much until an enemy caught fire. 

You also could implement a cooldown on a channeled power in which you cannot activate the power unless you have enough energy to keep the power until the cooldown ends. It would be the same as activation energy cost, but it would drain over time. 

Perhaps you could get the energy not used during the cooldown back, but only after the cooldown ends? 

The thing about that is that all channeled abilities already have energy limiting factors already built in.  Factors that are so effective that adding a cooldown could be considered cruel and unusual punishment.  The only ways for those using channeled abilities to regain any energy is usually only through energy orbs and syndicate procs.  

WoF in it's current form has additional drawbacks on top of the ones I mentioned for it's continued use.  

It's things like channeled abilities that make discussions about energy economy a tad bit difficult to resolve/change.  

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

Very true, DatDarkOne! I love all the differing powers and abilities that Warframe has! One of the drawbacks that this variation brings is that there isn't an easy solution to make everything function as a cohesive whole. 

All of the different powers, mods, passives, game additions (Archwing, Operators) don't necessarily work as well as they should, together, in this unique game. Which can be frustrating! DE is slowly trying to solve these problems, but at the same time, DE has to create new content to have a constant revenue. 

The only way to really fix much of these issues would be to rework much of the game. DE is currently doing this with it's most recent attempt being the melee system. 

I just wish DE would try to tackle these issues by not working within the current game, but rework the game mechanics from the ground up. A good example would be the total redux of the Focus System. 

The Focus System was changed radically, but maintained its core of being an Affinity sink for higher-end players by providing useful skills and passives to add to gameplay. It made Operators more useful and added decent skills. 

I really wish the energy economy would be reworked, but Warframe as a whole needs to be defragmented because there are currently too many separate parts that are being held together under the banner of the name Warframe. 

These are the energy system, Archwing, story, including events, damage, melee, mods, rewards, and enemy scaling, armor, and AI. These things all work now, but don't work well together. 

I'm saying that everything is bad, but DE isn't a large company and doesn't have the budget to fix everything. I also think that DE didn't think Warframe would be around this long and the company and Warframe's continued existence speak volumes about the talent and passion involved! The problems like energy economy will remain until DE takes a look at the game as a whole and not piece by piece as they do currently. 

I'm rooting for DE still after all these years and even with glaring issues in their game. I have never seen a company continue to stay so involved in continuing the community and game they have built and that's really special! 

[DatDarkOne]

59 minutes ago, (XB1)ZenithLord 42 said:

Very true, DatDarkOne! I love all the differing powers and abilities that Warframe has! One of the drawbacks that this variation brings is that there isn't an easy solution to make everything function as a cohesive whole. 

I agree with all that you said in that post and not just the part I quoted.  

I can honestly say that I don't envy the job that DE have in regards to this.  It's a really tough position to be in.  

Edited May 22, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Halisi]

I addressed the issue of energy economy similarly before. Addressing some of the issues brought up here. Without bringing up the thread itself, this is the basic premise.

- Energy regens at 5/sec and has a 3sec recharge delay upon using energy in any way, powers, channeling, etc. Preventing spamming.

- All means of restoring energy are removed, energy plates, energy vampire, zenuriks energy recharge, etc. But I like the idea of having limited consumable items which restore 100 energy. Someone mentioned that on page 1 I think.

- Channeled powers are converted to having a duration. I believe energy drain is a flawed system. It only exists to let people use channeled powers longer, and artificially make modding easier. By removing duration from the equation DE allowed people to mod for channeled powers while neutering the rest of their skillset with no penalty. This was alleviated by making duration affect drain rate, but defeats the point of energy drain in the first place. 

Take WoF for example. Before it was changed into a channeled ability all you had to do was cast it then do about other things. You could cast other powers, and if it went down you just recasted it no worries. Now you have to manage, energy drain making it difficult to cast other powers, the range decaying, and the energy drain ramping up. You have to recast the power eventually. When the point of people wanting it to be a channeled power was so they didn't have to recast it.

There is no reason for channeled powers to not work for a duration at this point. That's what I believe. But if anyone disagrees I'm interested in hearing your opinion.

- I also proposed a change to channeling which I believe fits here. Channeling becomes an activate-able power. Activating channeling grants its benefits to all melee attacks for a duration at a cost of 25-50 energy. Channeling efficiency would then affect the cost to activate channeling.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

On 2018-05-16 at 3:22 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

On 2018-05-17 at 12:34 AM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Take your time 🙂 I just wanna say i feel you man, sitting on 15 Chassis, 1 Neuro and 5 BPs myself with no Systems in sight 😞 ... At least switching to Elite Mode from time to time keeps me motivated as i enjoy that variety alot more. Good luck to both of us! 😉

Well it took me longer than expected. Forgot the thread to be honest. I hope you eventually managed to get your last part...I eventually got mine. Anyways...

 

On 2018-05-16 at 3:22 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Alright i think i see where you're coming from but i also think you are mistaking cause and effect here.

i'd argue borked efficiency rates in Onslaught are quite obviosuly the effect of our overabundance of energy. Note that i don't believe my rework ideas would "fix the game" and that's that, it's more about finding an actual plausible baseline. So yeah, if Onslaught would indeed turn out to be unwinnable and Eidolon lure health unsustainable those things would have to be fixed, too, that goes without saying. Honestly i'm not even sure those'd be issues, tho...

I don't really think that is the case. Onslaught is amode which DE intended to be limited in duration and therefor implemented a system that forces people out. This system is overtuned to the point where it isn't really fun (imo) and regression goes down too fast and would do so regardless of the energy economy. It also suffers from a serious lack of spawns slowing down to a trickle on some tile sets and exacerbated by the attrocious AI that has dififculty understanding concepts such as doors and hallways 😉  (ie...they are clumping together in far off corners near the spawn). 

On 2018-05-16 at 3:22 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

About a rebalancing starting with enemies:
Honestly the game is so completely piss easy from top to bottom atm it's practically playing itself. i'm all for a holistic approach to rebalancing the game but to start with what little opposition is left? Like, really? You mention the enemy side of combat as appalingly bad. Tbqh apart from bosses most of the time i don't see much of an enemy side at all, just a meaningless sea of numbers popping up here and there.

Yes. Absolutely. This doesn't mean the enemies become easier. This means that scaling become proportional and difficulty increases logically. It also means that variety in tactics and builds would be possible by implementing systems of resistances and immunities that increase of decrease enemy survivability depending on what the player uses and different damage types would be viable. Just because for a huge part of the game the game is rather easy...and enemy scaling ramps up suddenly to insane levels...this needs to be a priority.

There has been a steady stream of nerfs and buffs on the player side...but the enemy side is a mess that completely negates all the efforts and facilitates the inevitable power creep. Ultimately the reality is that the current system we have is the result of continuous progression and stacking system on system and band aid upon band aid to patch over the incongruities and incoherency of it all. And a huge part starts and ends with enemies. 

 

On 2018-05-16 at 3:22 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Again: I firmly believe ppl are using cheese simply because they can. It's just "play to win", psychologically the most obvious way to go the path of least resistiance.

To a point. And I do not see an issue with that. Games who fullfill a power fantasy more and better tend to be more popular and better received/perceived. There are of course exceptions and genre's that rely on the opposite...but in general that is how it works. 

And of course the problem goes beyond combat. Grind and efficiency in that grind play a large part too. It would be too easy to just point at one thing and say that thta is it. Nevertheless...I think the enemy scaling is the main culprit that essentially pushes and necessitates a specific meta. 

On 2018-05-16 at 3:22 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well, like i said i wouldn't know about Destiny but every single other action game i know and have ever known "fetishizes" balance more than Warframe. I'm dead serious.

I know...and when they push for to much balance...the community tends to push back hard. There is a balance in balance. Ridiculous as it sounds...too much and too little are both very bad things. Ironically...D2 is a good example of too much balance and D1 is a good example of too little balance. And the difference is power fantasy. If the player feels too restricted and too limited the balance is perceived as dull, boring, restricting and too little balance and the game will be seen as trivial, easy, boring. 

But one thing that is I think true in all cases...you can't have balance if you only balance the player side of things. And you need to find out what makes warframe fun. And that is predominantly using special and unique abilities and use them often. I think it is very unwise to limit the use of those abilities by restricting energy. Destiny did exactly that to balance the game better...and people hated that with a vengeance because it negatively affected their feeling of power.  

Rather than messing with that...the solution needs to be found elsewhere to create a challenge. And the best place for that is the enemy side. If you want to prevent ability spam, which..again...I don't think is an issue, then you need enemy resistances to make that spam less viable as a tactic. 

 

On 2018-05-16 at 3:22 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Yeah, and if you don't want ppl to spam skills exclusively you introduce nullifying enemies, i'm sure ppl will LOVE them...

We have those in abundance and they will not go away when we limit energy availability. Again...I don't see a problem in ability spam...but there are more ways than just adding nullifiers or disruptors etc to do so.  

On 2018-05-16 at 3:22 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

In all seriousness: You are proposing to plaster the game more and more in bandaids, that's no fundamental approach whatsoever. Personally i've had my share of those and believe they just continue a vicious cycle of cheese and counter-cheese.

Well not really..or at least I think the opposite. Limiting energy is a band aid. It doesn't actually solve fundamental issues...it just flat out nerfs abilities and limits out use of them. It solves nothing about damage output of weapons which suffer the same problems. Reducing player power flat out is always simply a bandaid that avoids the core problems. 

A fundammental approach is to make sure diversity of tactics and builds is required, mandatory even, and enemies scale logically and porgressively. Spam is viable and to combat spam you need to make it not viable. Energy reduction just makes it impossible...without addressing why it is viable. Leaving other parts of the combat mechanics with the very same problem.  I think my solutions (or at least the direction in which I am looking for them) would also keep the combat more engaging and demands active on the fly adaptation. 

I don't know if you payed Fortnite Save the World (PvE) but that game, far from perfect, solves the power creep by adding enemies that actually have imunities and become harder to kill without certain weapons or elements or require actual cooperation and banding together. Now...that is a tower defense horde mode game...but there is very little reason why such systes could not be adopted into warframe without altering its more unique nature. And while you can say a ton about Fortnite STW...combat was engaging and an actul activity rather than an after thought.  

On 2018-05-16 at 3:22 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well, color me intrigued... Anyway like i said i don't know about Destiny but in terms of Warframe: Isn't a pure horde mode (Onslaught) just pretty much "the game" laid bare, as in: pure combat? If that mode is actually the least fun to you that to me is all the more a clear indication that something's wrong with the game's core aspects.

I absolutely do not disagree with you that there is something wrong with the core aspect. I just think that reducing the energy availability is not the solution. Or at least not in the form it is currently fit in. It can certainly pose part of a solution...but I still think it is a very, very risky road to take. 

 

On 2018-05-16 at 9:10 PM, Somb3rBivalve said:

Well that goes back to a point Quasimir and I made earlier in the thread was that through nerfing the energy economy, we could justify nerfs to those cheap mechanics. As it stands, those are the only way enemies can challenge us. However, I will await for your more full reply later since I am curious what you have to say.

I understand that that is the intention. But I think that these changes need to happen and do not need and should not need any justification than that they are holding back the game. It is partially why damage 3.0 was received so negatively and was ultimately canned. It prevents meaningful end game (assuming DE wants to provide it somewhere in the future) and it seeriously affects newer modes and new frames as well as actual build diversity. Arguiably this game needs serious overhauls on many levels. But since we are always messing with payer power and nothing really seems to work...enemies need to be scaled properly, logically and linear. and difficulty should not come from insane EHP increases but from balance with imunities and resistances. The introduction of mini bosses etc. 

 

[Threa]

This would kill the game for me. It would remove what I believe is one of Warframe's most vital and fun aspects. We have the freedom to use our abilities so long as we can manage our energy well. What you're proposing would turn this game into a basic FPS and remove the magic from this game. 

[Nitro747]

Can't believe this pointless thread about an issue that doesn't exist is still going on... Let it die.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb (PS4)BOSS_TPH76:

- comprehensive answer -

Thank you!

At least we can agree overall balance is off atm, i'm also d'accord enemy scaling plays a big part but it's still not where i'd start.

Of course i'm for enemy diversity, still not sure introducing more particular anti-META units wouldn't complicate things unnecessarily.

The thing about "power fantasy" being warframe's selling point: I'm afraid you're right. I guess there's an insuperable discrepancy between people who enjoy "feeling powerful" against actually "being powerful", as in: having to actually master something. My earliest memories of videogames are of the kind that artificially enhanced longevity by difficulty (yeah getting old), so i guess i'm just socialized in that particular way. On the other hand there are still dozens of games which are harder than Warframe (i'd even say most *cough*) which are equally as popular.

vor 14 Stunden schrieb (PS4)BOSS_TPH76:

Forgot the thread to be honest.

Yeah, i guess it's run its cause...

vor 14 Stunden schrieb (PS4)BOSS_TPH76:

I hope you eventually managed to get your last part...I eventually got mine.

Grats! 🙂Yeah thanks again, finally those Systems dropped after a solid month of running nothing else.

________

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Threa:

We have the freedom to use our abilities so long as we can manage our energy well.

No. This description would actually fit what i'm proposing. Current reality:

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Threa:

We have the freedom to use our abilities as long and often as we like.

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir
typos

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Gerade eben schrieb Nitro747:

Can't believe this pointless thread about an issue that doesn't exist is still going on... Let it die.

Oh hi again. Yeah let's let it die by bumping it with comments about how it should die.

[Checht]

18 hours ago, Threa said:

This would kill the game for me. It would remove what I believe is one of Warframe's most vital and fun aspects. We have the freedom to use our abilities so long as we can manage our energy well. What you're proposing would turn this game into a basic FPS and remove the magic from this game. 

The idea isn't to have a blanket nerf on "spammability" on all skills. It's to target spammability of skills that can be spam-to-win. By spam-to-win I don't necessarily mean nuke skills. Skills that effectively neutralize whole room of enemies are also spam-to-win.

The idea is that on top of a nerf on energy economy, we should have a revision on energy cost of skills too. For example, if we want to make Volt's Discharge to be more of a panic button which you conserve to use only in tight situations, and not spammed to stun-lock whole room of enemies, this is what to be done. First, nerf "natural" energy regen, either from Zenurik or from passive frame regen as OP has suggested. For this example, let's say it's nerfed to 2.5 energy per second, which is half of the current Zenurik regen. Then, energy costs of Volt's abilities are revised too. The energy costs of the first 3 abilities can be halved to preserve the effective energy costs. Shock would cost 12/13, Speed costs 12/13, Electric Shield costs 25. Discharge wouldn't receive any cost reduction, it stays at 100. With this, Discharge becomes much less spammable, while other skills are still as usable as they currently are. This kind of change ensures that we are still free to use staple abilities that do not break the game, while making skills that are supposed to be panic abilities be panic abilities.

The powercreep of Warframe has gone too far that the game has become too easy. They are mostly caused by spammability of certain skills. Buffing enemies don't help, as abilities that turn them into brain-dead targets don't care about how strong enemies are. The solution is to nerf frame abilities. To do this, we can either

1. Reduce spammability

2. Reduce potency of spammable skills

What's discussed in this thread is option number 1.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Checht

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2018‎-‎05‎-‎22 at 5:43 PM, Halisi said:

There is no reason for channeled powers to not work for a duration at this point. That's what I believe. But if anyone disagrees I'm interested in hearing your opinion.

There are two good reasons for them not to be duration based.  Those are Ivara and Titania.  Especially Ivara.  If you change her Prowl to duration without removing all the built-in drawbacks of the skill, it would make Prowl and her almost useless (and I'm not using this word lightly).  Same with her Artemis Bow.  

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Halisi]

5 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

There are two good reasons for them not to be duration based.  Those are Ivara and Titania.  Especially Ivara.  If you change her Prowl to duration without removing all the built-in drawbacks of the skill, it would make Prowl and her almost useless (and I'm not using this word lightly).  Same with her Artemis Bow.  

 

How would prowl working off of a duration make it useless? Once it goes down you just recast it.

[DatDarkOne]

7 hours ago, Halisi said:

How would prowl working off of a duration make it useless? Once it goes down you just recast it.

Oh ye who must not have used Prowl to not see the issue that I was referring to.  

What happens to Ivara when she activates Prowl that doesn't happen to any other invis frame?  How about when she takes damage while in Prowl?  Or that Prowl requires a silent weapon.  

To change Prowl to duration, those very limiters on Prowl must be removed also.  If they aren't, she becomes the worst invis frame in the game, period.  It would also end up being the same skill as Cloak Arrow.  

Edited May 24, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[(PSN)Grnmchn1]

A solution to all of this is selecting difficulty mode lmfao geez

Easy

Normal

Hard

Very hard

Ultimate

Just like PSO

[Leqesai]

On 2018-05-12 at 7:19 AM, Trichouette said:

I still think the game would be better with no energy and short cooldown.

This way you can use an ability as much as you want without impairing how you use the other ability of your kit (right now if you spam 4 you don't have energy for 1/2/3...)

 

But I agree with you, although you forgot rage (and that other hunter mod)

Cooldowns are a horrible, HORRIBLE way of doing skills. They were introduced because people wanted a way to balance stronger moves but in a bunch of games everything is on a cooldown and it makes gameplay utterly boring.

 

Just get into your rotation cycles and hit buttons in order. This is why Octavia and Harrow are pretty boring IMO. They rely way too heavily on cooldowns/timers.

 

Never suggest cooldowns replace energy again. If you do.... I'll lose it!!! <- Facetious

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Leqesai:

This is why Octavia and Harrow are pretty boring IMO.

These two don't even belong in the same sentence D; ... Harrow is brilliantly designed, rewards skillfull gunplay and skill / energy management.

Regarding cooldowns: Really? What's more boring: Having to sometimes wait a bit before you can access your strongest skills so you're forced to be flexible and rely on the rest of your kit parcouring, shooting, meleeing, "playing the game" OR pressing the same two buttons for twenty minutes because... well because you can. I'd prefer the former honestly. ESO wasn't boring to me... until the Saryn rework. Also i believe one pro about my solution would be that "lesser" skills would still be available more or less constantly when properly modded (Sure, who wants to wait for a friggin rip line... wanna go invincible tho? Better work for that a bit!).

Also we gotta consider how the game changed from way back when DE decided cooldowns weren't for them (which they pracitcally officially took back with ESO anyway):

Almost all "serious" missions (as in: the ones you don't just rush through leaving enemies behind) feature an endless stream of enemies. So there's no actual way of just hiding in some corner for your Ult to be full, which would indeed make the game boring.

[Soketsu]

dat necro...