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Melee: Present and Future goals!


[DE]Rebecca

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20 minutes ago, YandereWaifu said:

well tbh they were gonna do a balance pass on melees anyway, it was a long time coming, as for maiming and bloodrush, idk why they didnt just give maiming effects a cool down, like 15 seconds inbetween or make it so you have to do something first before you can use the maiming effect.

the new system would actually be simpler as there are only going to  be 2 buttons, heavy attack and light attack, stances are also being made simpler as well. as for melees in high levels, personally ive never had a problem without meme strike or spin 2 win and they are giving us a massive increase to each melees base stats right off the bat 

But now, without the combo counter and (maybe) bloodrush/weeping applying to normal hits, the melee weapons won't scale very well at high levels. 

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7 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Didn't read the whole thread. So you are going to pull on a string to a spider web that will require:

Completely reworking all the WF powers that synergize with melee. Reworking the entire melee weapon and modding system together with all the stances. Reworking the game controls. Reworking the...

I don't think yall have the $$ to do that. But if you do, you shouldn't anyway. What possible ROI could exist on that level of massive change when only small tweaks are necessary?

But you don't have to do all that and spend all that. All you have to do is put some kind of Cool Down (meaning dmg immunity/dmg reduction period) on spin attacks that varies with the maximum -modded- range of the weapon. Low range weapons should be able to do full spin damage at will, which makes logical sense. Someone spinning into you with a tonfa or sword is going to do some grisly damage. Longer range weapons would have their spin damage reduced drastically if they spin too fast in succession. This also makes logical sense. Someone with a whip who just starts cracking it willy nilly is not going to hit much or do much damage if the targets are 20 meters away.

For example, a dagger/tonfa/sword/dual sword/gunblade... with modded range of 4 has no spin restrictions. OTOH, a staff with a modded range of 10 does half damage if it spins more than once every 2 seconds. A whip with a modded range of 15 does 1/4 damage if it spins more than once every 2 seconds. Numbers change, but example is clear. Just do that. Preserves the nature of the spin attack while addressing range and repetition. You don't even have to change ANY mods or how they work. Your melee system is already really good, outstanding even as a part of the game that works well. I think this is really about Onslaught and how reskinning Survival without thinking through balance of ranged and melee weapons within it is the real issue.

So spend a few $$ reworking Onslaught into something other than Survival Reskin. That's what this is all about, don't like that Onslaught ended up "melee fiesta?" So rework the whole melee system around that? Why? Why not rework Onslaught instead? So much cheaper and easier.

The melee system in WF is really damn good as it is.

Then the macros just change to spamming after every 2 seconds.

Nothing changes.

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1 minute ago, Kurogumihime said:

Please do tell me just HOW is the game meant to be played? Only forever employees think of needing to work hard for that sweet sweet reward. Work smart, not hard. If there is an easier efficient solution go for it rather than spend more time needed doing it the "normal" way whatever that way is or you hire somebody that will do it for you while you do something more important. But I digress, we must be a peasant serf and grind on the fields all day so we reap those sweet rewards right?

how much of  the game is meant to be played well its a game its meant to be played what do you want like a percent how much the game is not to be played ? and personally im fine with someone setting up a macro to help them do something but there still actively engaging with the game

i draw a problem when someone just sets up a macro goes to find a corner where they wont be bothered and uses it then gets up walks away or does something else entirely and treats it like a idle phone game only doing something when extract and continue pops up from personal experience half the time they dont even do that

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Just now, seprent said:

how much of  the game is meant to be played well its a game its meant to be played what do you want like a percent how much the game is not to be played ? and personally im fine with someone setting up a macro to help them do something but there still actively engaging with the game

i draw a problem when someone just sets up a macro goes to find a corner where they wont be bothered and uses it then gets up walks away or does something else entirely and treats it like a idle phone game only doing something when extract and continue pops up from personal experience half the time they dont even do that

Honestly just let them do whatever they want cause if they're at the point of just using a macro and afking, that means they're extremely bored and about to leave. Let them have their swan song before they get reported and banned lmao.

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OH              MY                     CLEM   This is amazing and i'm here for it, my idea about the new block is maybe bladed weapons  parry reflect higher damage that builds with block, block starts low but raises to 100% with damage reflected   (block 450 damage go from 65% block to 85% & reflected  damage is 2x the initial damaged blocked). blunt weapons eg. hammers, heavy blades etc don't reflect damage but rather build up damage bonus and proc of damage absorbed on next slam attack and block 100% projectile damage

Small Bladed weapons apply a shadow step where they block 70% damage at base and while blocking are harder to hit and melee attack while standing still at a rift strike like distance where heavy actually rift strikes, kills from this stack into 100 % block that wears off at the cost of this ability meaning once kill stacks have granted you 100% block you can no longer use this ability. usage example: Youre running with fang, blocking and avoiding heave infantry fire, you notice a sniper, you pause movement then slash and blink to deal a nice critical at the cost of 10 energy.  

Sword and shield weapons block 100% in addition to casting an energy shield that absorbs explosive damage and resist knockdown for nearby allies.                                                     The base blocks will require no energy but the special effects will drain up to a set amount instead of draining as you use eg. Bladed block reflect stack requires 50 energy when maxed at 4x damage reflect (Stacks deplete out of combat)  blunt bonus damage absorbed will require 50 energy at maxed. Sword and shield weapons require 150 seeing as this will be an energy shield it will simply grow and when complete apply cost, block drop will undo growth.          The way energy drain works here is like a set amount cost rather than drain. If players want to block without these cost on the building aka absorbing via blocking mechanic then they can drop guard and the abilities will go into cooldown then require reblocking in order to activate them or a double block input to activate/decativate any of them eg. Double tap block, blades shine with the old channel sound and shimmer and now the cost will apply as well as offer these bonuses. 

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My only thought that I have here while I play with Khora in the late hours of the night are: what will become of abilities that utilized the combo counter (ie Landslide, Whipclaw, and Bladestorm to name a few)? Is this something that isn't affected or are you looking at separating those abilities from the melee combo counter? Or are you considering something else that I did not think of? Can't criticize the system fully since I would prefer to try it first, but just a minor concern.

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Just now, Kurogumihime said:

Honestly just let them do whatever they want cause if they're at the point of just using a macro and afking, that means they're extremely bored and about to leave. Let them have their swan song before they get reported and banned lmao.

it just bothers me on a personal level since i did computer programming and culinary arts classes for fun and you have no idea the amount of annoyance that gets me when someone ignores a whole system to cheese it for maximum rewards and cant even be bothered to watch it or control it its like if someone came up to you and kicked you right in the shin and then said your welcome 

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9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!

Finally, excavation with infested won't need you to switch from melee to secondary all the time! (Melee for normal infested, secondary for the drones with the power cores).

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1 hour ago, Salvatore.Lynx said:

Yea they are the ones who get carried in every sortie mission. 

It's not their fault, we are going to join them soon. Spending roughly around 2-3 clips on one Eximus. 

 

1 hour ago, XzWasPzX said:

8Gy784V.jpg

 

Sometimes i hate when someone is right... 😓

 

BYE SORTIES
BYE MAIMING STRIKE

BYE SCOLIAC
BYE TO CARRYING MISSIONS
BYE WARFRAME. 


SLCywl0.jpg

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10 minutes ago, seprent said:

it just bothers me on a personal level since i did computer programming and culinary arts classes for fun and you have no idea the amount of annoyance that gets me when someone ignores a whole system to cheese it for maximum rewards and cant even be bothered to watch it or control it its like if someone came up to you and kicked you right in the shin and then said your welcome 

Well that's all on you buddy. Don't let trivial things like these affect you since there are actually much more important issues around than some guy just cheesing a game. Also you took those as fun classes? That doesn't make you an authority in anything lmao. Btw people who ignore the system usually are the ones that get rich. Just look at all those billionaires, people told them to go the "usual" way, they said no and they find ways to make our lives convenient and them make a lot of money for it.

Now sir, that's what I called being extremely entitled and out of touch.

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I personally think that these changes could be great, but as it stands right now, would just create issues, both on the mod side and the use of melee.  If the current changes proposed to the combo counter are implemented, no one will have much reason to use charge attacks, because A: it would negatively effect the usefulness of the gladiator mods, weeping wounds, and bloodrush, which are useful mods on more than just spin2win builds. And B: It would disturb the flow of combos and melee combat while offering minimal rewards, as charge attacks can be somewhat clunky.  I personally feel that a more efficient and intuitive use of the combo counter would be to have the charge attack button augment normal attacks in a combo, while working as normal outside of a combo. Take slam attacks, for example.  If you used the Charge attack as the input for the slam in a combo, it could perform a counter finisher instead of a slam.  I believe that the combo counter should give multiple charges that you can accumulate, like a fighting game, so that mods like bloodrush and such would still be viable mods. I also believe that a potential "channeling" could be you use a combo counter charge to "energize" your frame, giving it increased critical/status chance and a boost to attack speed for a set duration.  just my two cents, and thanks for letting us know your design ideas!

tl;dr Use charge attacks in combos, have combo charges. channeling burst mode?

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23 minutes ago, Salvatore.Lynx said:

 

 

BYE SORTIES
BYE MAIMING STRIKE

BYE SCOLIAC
BYE TO CARRYING MISSIONS
BYE WARFRAME. 


SLCywl0.jpg

Maiming strike will be fine.  The only change mentioned to the combo multiplier is that the damage multiplier will only apply to heavy attacks.  This has nothing to do with blood rush or weeping wounds.  They just add stacks based on your current combo multiplier.  Between the fact that the combo multiplier will increase faster and the damage buff to weapons to make up for the loss of the damage multiplier on normal attacks, if anything, spin to win will be more powerful than ever.

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11 minutes ago, Kurogumihime said:

Well that's all on you buddy. Don't let trivial things like these affect you since there are actually much more important issues around than some guy just cheesing a game. Also you took those as fun classes? That doesn't make you an authority in anything lmao. Btw people who ignore the system usually are the ones that get rich. Just look at all those billionaires, people told them to go the "usual" way, they said no and they find ways to make our lives convenient and them make a lot of money for it.

Now sir, that's what I called being extremely entitled and out of touch.

didnt say it made me a authority in anything jsut giving some context on why it bothers me im use to things having process and im ok with you doing more efficient things to get though it but if i you just set it up and dont watch it thats when it bothers me yeah i know most of its on me but its you gonna macro it at-least keep a eye on it is all i ask and probebly people should have seen this coming melee going though walls was kind a problem no matter how you slice it 

also i agree with you on the rich thing i hate rich kids so much just Nth degree hate

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Looks like we're getting to play Dynasty Warriors but with better movement mechanics in Warframe, love it. Also, spin to win is finally going away, thank goodness. Looking forward to this update!

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Just now, seprent said:

didnt say it made me a authority in anything jsut giving some context on why it bothers me im use to things having process and im ok with you doing more efficient things to get though it but if i you just set it up and dont watch it thats when it bothers me yeah i know most of its on me but its you gonna macro it at-least keep a eye on it is all i ask and probebly people should have seen this coming melee going though walls was kind a problem no matter how you slice it 

I saw it coming a mile away since ESO came out. I always pointed out that suddenly it's spin central everywhere and Memestrike went up slightly in price. I just didn't expect it to be this soon. I got a bunch melee weapons that can melt level 100+ stuff so I really am not worried even if my memerax gets nuked and I do kinda want to see how they are changing the combo system and I already have stuff that I am thinking as candidates to replaces my old cheese setup.

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1 minute ago, Kurogumihime said:

I saw it coming a mile away since ESO came out. I always pointed out that suddenly it's spin central everywhere and Memestrike went up slightly in price. I just didn't expect it to be this soon. I got a bunch melee weapons that can melt level 100+ stuff so I really am not worried even if my memerax gets nuked and I do kinda want to see how they are changing the combo system and I already have stuff that I am thinking as candidates to replaces my old cheese setup.

i shoot for a killing level goal of 80-90 personally its what i see more i have a deadline no exceptions if i cant one/two shot a level 60 and i have alot of melee too alot i need to shake dust off this gives me a excuse 

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My main concern with this rework is the interaction with Blood Rush, and Weeping Wounds specifically. If combo counters are not going to be tied to our light attacks, how would that affect Blood Rush and Weeping wounds? Would those mods get re-worked also? Would they only count towards the heavy attack? I understand that testing is still ongoing and you may not have an answer, but those are some things that should probably be thought about when approaching this re-work. 

With Blood Rush + Body Count + Relentless Combination, you won't be able to use your combo counters if that's the way it will work. Generally, mods like Blood Rush, Relentless Combination and Weeping Wounds rely on the combo counter in particular, and if they stay the same mechanically no one will want to use the heavy attack because they'll constantly be in red critting or high damage territory with those particular mods, which rely on the combo counter heavily. It wouldn't seem beneficial to use your combo to deal a heavy attack when you're constantly going to be in the territory of high damage with a high combo multiplier. No one would want to give that up. 

TLDR: Concerns with Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and Relentless Combination mechanics involving light attack and combo counters. Need a little more context as to how this re-work will affect combo related mods that have a multiplier buff.

 

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Excited but worried. Please keep the build usability of the "Shadow Debt" mods in mind... as in let's keep them relevant

 

Hopefully we could also see Parries become more mechanical & less RNG based? Mods that used to affect parry chance, affect window size? Maybe some weapons have bigger parry windows than others... maybe even let us not only parry melee attacks... but ranged attacks/projectiles too?

 

IDK, I believe that you guys can concoct a cool, fun, deep & GOOD Melee system... let's do it DE..

 

Also maybe Combo Counter can act as a Super Meter with bars akin to those in 2D fighting games?

 

But instead of using all of the meter built up in one heavy attack, we'd use "X" amount of bars for certain Heavy attacks (these could act like Meter Burned Attacks & have special properties & utilities)? Maybe each Stance (or Weapon Class to keep it tame) could have a big expensive Heavy Attack that almost acts as a cinematic level 3 or 5 Super in Fighting game? Do crazy stuff... like scaled, guaranteed proc, armor ignoring damage? idk...

maybe even a cheaper generic super attack (1 bar super equivalent) for each weapon class that doesn't require a stance. These could do utility things to make weapon types standout...

 

Example: If Scythes Level 1 Super gave them a buff to ignore 45% enemy armor for 20 secs... When they get classified as Heavy Blades, they'd have this unique ability to help them standout from the Great Swords & Axes

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Just now, ThatWildPanda said:

My main concern with this rework is the interaction with Blood Rush, and Weeping Wounds specifically. If combo counters are not going to be tied to our light attacks, how would that affect Blood Rush and Weeping wounds? Would those mods get re-worked also? Would they only count towards the heavy attack? I understand that testing is still ongoing and you may not have an answer, but those are some things that should probably be thought about when approaching this re-work. 

With Blood Rush + Body Count + Relentless Combination, you won't be able to use your combo counters if that's the way it will work. Generally, mods like Blood Rush, Relentless Combination and Weeping Wounds rely on the combo counter in particular, and if they stay the same mechanically no one will want to use the heavy attack because they'll constantly be in red critting or high damage territory with those particular mods, which rely on the combo counter heavily. It wouldn't seem beneficial to use your combo to deal a heavy attack when you're constantly going to be in the territory of high damage with a high combo multiplier. No one would want to give that up. 

TLDR: Concerns with Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and Relentless Combination mechanics involving light attack and combo counters. Need a little more context as to how this re-work will affect combo related mods that have a multiplier buff.

 

my thoughts it would still behave as normal since it only cares about you having the combo counter on and apply the buffs to your stats im sure we will get more context eventually  

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1 minute ago, seprent said:

my thoughts it would still behave as normal since it only cares about you having the combo counter on and apply the buffs to your stats im sure we will get more context eventually  

Thing is, if this rework works the way it does, that would mean the nerf to Maiming Strike would be irrelevent. Having Blood Rush + Body Count + Relentless Combination + Drifting Contact + Maiming Strike is going to keep you in Spin2Win territory with red crits. You don't even need Maiming Strike if you just have those mods listed above, you'll still be in red crit terriroty with the slash procs from Relentless Combination. If DE aims to nerf Spin2Win, they need to address the way that the changes to combo counters will affect light attacks, seeing as that is the only way to use those multiplier mods. Again, more context needed in the future.

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Just now, ThatWildPanda said:

Thing is, if this rework works the way it does, that would mean the nerf to Maiming Strike would be irrelevent. Having Blood Rush + Body Count + Relentless Combination + Drifting Contact + Maiming Strike is going to keep you in Spin2Win territory with red crits. You don't even need Maiming Strike if you just have those mods listed above, you'll still be in red crit terriroty with the slash procs from Relentless Combination. If DE aims to nerf Spin2Win, they need to address the way that the changes to combo counters will affect light attacks, seeing as that is the only way to use those multiplier mods. Again, more context needed in the future.

all it does it stop you from hitting things though walls you have to be able to see who your hitting so its like a pseudo nerf it fixes part of the problem 

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The notion that all combo count will be used up on 1 heavy attack swing goes against how this game works. This is a horde game. There are tons of enemies. Hitting 100 just to one shot one won’t do a thing for you when there will be 10 more just like it. 

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