[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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Im glad you guys are working on killing the maming strike meta, but dont let that goal ruin other aspects of melee like combo counters which are integral to using melee in late to end game missions

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2 minutes ago, Lancars said:

Don't nerf Combo Counter. Some weapons need it.

Yeah, that's the thing. It'd ruin things like +speed/-damage zaws that depend on being able to build combos.

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So, why nerf the combo counter? Im a player agaisnt spin2win meta, but if you want to nerf the combo, check the armor scaling first, because with a good combo counter x4 on damage you can take the level 80-100 enemies in this horde game, if yo do that people will dont have to relay on the spin2win build. 

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Posted (edited)

I generally try to stay optimistic about things DE does, but this is arguably one of the WORST ideas they have ever had. It's almost on the same level as Steve's absolutely moronic DMG 2.5 Sh!t-show.

"Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing."

First, no one channel blocks. No one cares about getting 100% reduction because it drains your energy more than it is worth. I'm more than ok with getting 60%-90% depending on weapon type. It also currently makes sense that a shield blocks more than a dagger. WHY oh WHY do you think it is smart to make all melee weapons block 100% BUT have an energy drain. Combos require blocking and those combos are generally really nice, as they are easy to perform in chaotic fights. Also, if there is no channeling, how will life strike work? It's an essential mod for many players who lack health regen from arcanes or specific frames. It's amazing on excalibur. If you are going to tell us sh!t; like this, explain how it will actually affect things.

"Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack."

Second, this is the dumbest #*!%ing thing in the notes. How on earth will this affect weeping and blood rush? Will we hit crazy high crit chance %s or will they be nerfed. Also WHY are you nerfing melee dmg? Sure, they are powerful, but anyone who uses melees in a non-spin-to-win fashion in later game will tell you that it's a give and take. Sure, melees are strong as #*!%, but you are far more vulnerable while using them. Why are you nerfing their damage and forcing us to use clunky charge attacks? And what you're actually doing is preventing us from ever using them, as we will lose stacks from weeping and blood rush on accident because no single attack is worth losing those stacks unless it one shots an entire room.

"You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!"

This sounds cool but is overall fairly useless. In the end it just means that instead of only quick attacking, you can use combos with your pistol still out. Whoopdy #*!%in doo. How many people do you see still utilizing that for glaives? It just looks cool but doesn't have that big of a difference. It only mattered for glaives because you could throw them for extra damage and actually throw them while using a secondary. 

"Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects."

What could I be mad at here? Could I be mad that spinning melees won't be as good because walls matter? No. I personally hate spin-to-win melee tactics. What I hate is that this could potentially be dangerous. One, it could potentially nerf the zenistar which is my baby. More importantly, sometimes we don't have anything that can hit enemies through walls and an enemy is glitched out and stuck in a wall. How will we be able to reach it if we cannot rely on melee weapons to get through the wall? It wouldn't be an issue if enemies never glitched out in their spawning, but we all know that it happens.

"Dodge canceling any melee attack!"

While this isn't a bad thing, it is in no way worthy of an exclamation mark. How often do you actually end up needing to dodge while meleeing? It interrupts your combo so many will simply absorb the damage. There aren't many instances where you HAVE to dodge an incoming attack or you will take a considerable amount of damage. I won't say it won't be nice for bombard rockets and one of the 17,000 slam attacks found in the game, but it doesn't come close to making up for this.

"Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons."

I'm a bit worried tbh. Make sure to keep zaws at the top of the food chain so that we didn't waste our time getting them. Also don't buff the gram because its disposition is already through the roof. 

Edited by BaconPinata
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Not sold on the combo counter idea AT ALL.

Half the appeal right now is that feeling of escalating performance and the added pressure of keeping that combo alive.

Guns are dull because they lack that, and if this changes, melee will be too.

 

The other ideas I'm fine with I guess. I don't use spin to win but I'm honestly happy with the setup as it already is.

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6 minutes ago, sixmille said:

It's absolutely not a melee nerf but a nice, welcome change to melee. First we'll be able to get rid off one melee mod, then they're significantly increasing base damage, and finally, none of us knows exactly how all of this is going to work. You will be able to play without caring about the counter. Let's be honest, how many times did you have it above 2.5 during normal play? It's not that big of a deal.

Don't go with your gut feelings. Wait for the real thing, test it thoroughly then report your experience. We've had the same people crying "nerf" about the beam weapon changes and the devs stuck to their guns and it ended up being awesome.

yeah, i dont think it's a nerf either, im just worried that the "raw damage" supplement we'll get in the rework wont be good enough for sortie level, and not everything has to be but if no melee weapons/a select few are sortie viable that's a problem

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as long as maiming poop and rivens that do similar things exist along with ridiculous ranges you can get with some melees people are gonna spin2win no matter what

but Im excited that DE finally acknowledges the problem and is going to do something about it
the new system looks really kewl too!

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So basically now only weapons with wide swing combos will be useful? i mean ok nerf maiming strike, but it's still way more worth using slide attacks because they cleave way better than most stances can, and u also get forward momentum out of it. I can't even think of how bad some weapons are at killing lots of things unless you use slide attacks lol; and to think they are doing this right after implementing a game mode that is literally kill everything around you as fast as possible, what's the point?

Also i can not even imagine how awful melee would be if we couldn't hit anything behind any object, especially given how many ridiculously cluttered maps they have added in the onslaught mode(tons of stairs, objects and other obstructions literally everywhere, narrow terrain with S#&$ clipping your frame constantly). Hope they can balance this out properly without making everyone have to run an amprex or ignis for aoe.

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$50 this melee change never goes through like damage 2.5

They are not fixing the primary problem and that is melee scales and does insane damage so that you can go deeper into infinite runs against enemies that have health pools that would negate the OP power of melee right now. BUT DE seems to not care about bringing back real infinite runs and continues to CoD this game into a really crappy game. 

Yeah they are bringing in more and more people into the game, but numbers of people playing does not constitute a good game. What constitutes a good game is player retention and that is something Warframe has been failing horribly at for a few years now as veterans are dropping like flies cause of all the bad choices that DE is constantly making over and over again.

I stand by my opinion that this game will not survive in 2019 and beyond. This year is the last year they will have any kind of success and it's very sad to see them kill their own game like this.

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à l’instant, Screamlord_Star a dit :

yeah, i dont think it's a nerf either, im just worried that the "raw damage" supplement we'll get in the rework wont be good enough for sortie level, and not everything has to be but if no melee weapons/a select few are sortie viable that's a problem

Well I'm not a big fan of aimless speculation. Does anyone have any figure to show here or is it just some random fear of the unknown?

Don't worry about things that are out of your control and don't even exist yet, your life will be twice better. ūüėČ

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Posted (edited)

My main concern is how you're handling the wall/object issue and the rebalancing of weapon size extenders to work properly. As it is, a weapon with maxed prime reach, due to its attack animations, will slap adjacents walls/floors/ceilings when swung. If it's based on line of sight, we all know the line of sight system is a bit shaky. If it's based on contact with a wall or object, then it'll be impossible to hit anybody with a weapon larger than a breadbox. My redeemer, an ostensibly short weapon, automatically strikes the floor on the first swing because of primed reach (I know this because of a bug a while ago that caused strike recoil on all surfaces; it was nearly impossible to make a complete swing). In addition, many objects have hitboxes much larger or smaller than they appear to be, based on surface effects cast across them highlighting those areas. I think the game's physics aren't equipped to handle a clean solution, but I suppose it will require more testing. I hope you don't just forget how to undo it in case you have to...

Edited by weirdee
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Just now, LastRide said:

Ambiguous text won't do the idea any favors too - we all remember the onslaught changes, don't we? 

 

I recommend rewriting because damn, most of hostility here is because of stuff it should be answered by now. 

it's an huge bandage that DE is ripping off right now, no matter what they do with melee rework an large number of players are gonna be mad over it. Spin To Win, killing enemies from an room over, melee's phasing trough walls can and IMHO should be gone. the biggest outrage will come from people who bought/worked hard to get their "god" whip rivens and such. It sucks for them, but when their whips even out pace tiberon prime with multishot, crit chance and crit damage. Something is wrong and it was clear to DE, it should of been clear to everyone. 

If melee is supposed to be so far better then guns, why are guns even in the game? 

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Posted (edited)

My issue with spin2win was the spamming of one attack over and over again. But these changes look like you're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater (nerfed range, combo counter gone aka no scalability, no punchthrough). I enjoy Warframe enough to have spent money on it because it's fast-paced. Slowing down the pace of melee combat will just ensure I never use it. I only hope that when this new melee system comes out you don't nerf the hell out of guns to make melee seem viable.

Edited by LuinCeltchar
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Posted (edited)

The proposition for combo counters is probably the only bad move I see here. I am in total agreement that combo counters should get a rework, but taking it away from the totality of regular use melee attacks is a step in the wrong direction.

Stopping the slide attacks going through walls is great, but I still think more will have to be done in the future, I look forward to the fixes to come.

What I suggest is that combo counters and mods that scale off of combo counter are only increased by attacks done from combos, so slide attacks, slam attack, and aerials will not increase the combo counter while combos from stances will increase the combo counter. Should slide attacks benefit from the combo counter? Maybe, maybe maiming strike will be enough, but the combo counter should apply to doing actual combos. A base damage buff is not necessary for this if the combo counter remains untouched.

A lot of people have built their zaws, mods, and forma around combo counter builds, so changing this will be a madhouse. I hope this reaches you DE. Thank you

Edited by (PS4)Crixus044
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Posted (edited)

Edit: The sentence was worded weirdly but now i understand

Combo counter idea is awful!

We need that combo counter with normal attacks, its the only thing that fixed melee to do any damage whatsoever

I'm also glad that you're not nerfing maiming strike whips, you're just nerfing hitting through walls. So i can still use my whip like normal and how ive always been using it, to clear everything room by room

 

 

What i hope you guys do is make channeling a different resource. the sole and only reason noone does it is because its too precious to use energy. a lot of warframe builds depend on using energy as their survivalbility 

Great job guys

Edited by Helm
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Please don't remove the combo counter applying to normal attacks, the combo counter is a staple with just about any weapon. Also, how are channeling mods (life strike) going to work now, and how will my bloodrush and weeping wounds work? 

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I mostly use quick-melee, so I'm really worried about the combo counter changes. The base damage of weapons getting buffed is super nice, but if it isn't able to overcome a typical combo counter (i.e. ~2.5x-3x) then this is going to be bad news for players who don't block or channel.

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This all sounds like a big step in the right direction, but it's going to depend so much on the execution. I like heavy attacks being on their own button, but being bound to eating the combo meter might limit it too much, especially if it's consuming all of the combo meter. Damage being a boost across the board to compensate for the changed combo mechanics sounds nice, but will it be enough to keep them relevant at high levels? And merging channeling with blocking is a good idea at its core, but if it makes blocking consume energy it could do more harm than good. And what will become of channeling mods and skills, or ones that interact with the combo meter - lots to think about with these changes. The thesis is sound, though, and the combat changes overall looked super fun on the stream!

I appreciate that nothing here is concrete, having us compare notes this early in the process will make for a better end product :satisfied:

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1 minute ago, Fire2box said:

it's an huge bandage that DE is ripping off right now, no matter what they do with melee rework an large number of players are gonna be mad over it. Spin To Win, killing enemies from an room over, melee's phasing trough walls can and IMHO should be gone. the biggest outrage will come from people who bought/worked hard to get their "god" whip rivens and such. It sucks for them, but when their whips even out pace tiberon prime with multishot, crit chance and crit damage. Something is wrong and it was clear to DE, it should of been clear to everyone. 

If melee is supposed to be so far better then guns, why are guns even in the game? 

Main reason melee's out perform a Tiberon Prime as an example you gave is because they scale, unlike every gun, guns can go so far, but melees will scale as long as you keep their combo going. Guns have bullets. Melee can deal with bugs, such as enemies spawning inside geometry, there's few guns that can, and scale well enough, to deal with those enemies. (I.E. Zenith, Maybe Ogris, Etc.) So you tell me that this is good against bugs and the effectiveness of your "God Riven" Tiberon Prime going only so far while a well built melee will push further, such as, a Sigma & Octantis, or a lovely Zaw since people love those.

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Posted (edited)

you've addressed why you're changing charged attack, spin attack and channeling, but...

what are your reasoning behind the changes to L/H attacks & combo counter? i feel like we deserve at least a full page of planning and reasoning on this topic.

metas are built from thousands of hours of gameplay from a huge portion of the playerbase, throwing in new ideas just because they sound cool could easily backfire, DMG2.5 for example.

all in all, at least play and test your ideas first.

Edited by Showerwalker
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Take out spinning meta? That's perfectly fine I guess, as it does get tiring after a while.

 Take out going through walls/objects, and combo from quick melee? Absolutely NOT. That is absolutely, 100% not okay in my book. Melee going through walls doesn't make sense, and I get that, but this is a game about ninjas in space operated by kids. Melee going through walls is the only bearable way to do things like medallion hunting for syndicates, unless you hate yourself and play box breaker Limbo. 
 Then you're taking out combo from quick melee, which is just the absolute worst. Speaking for myself, I absolutely disdain heavy attacks. I want to go fast and still do good damage, and this will completely nerf every single melee in the whole game in one fell swoop. Like sure, you can buff the damage across all melees, but even with those balance passes, melee will still be nerfed on the whole. 

 Also, I speak for those who spin2win in the sense that those people enjoy efficiency when killing. It's satisfying for them to spin or cast an ult and watch a whole room of dudes vanish. By focusing on heavy attacks and such you are also ruining enjoyment for a large portion of people who crave efficiency in their killing. I foresee this change making a lot of vets leave to be honest, because most of us just want to kill the things fast. 

 Then there's channeling and blocking... I don't know a single person who uses either of these. Channeling used to be more present because Life Strike, but now we have Medi Ray and several really solid heal frames. I find myself only ever channeling for the effect and nothing else, because there's no reason to channel in any other circumstance. As for blocking... why? Why block the dude when I can go in there and kill him incredibly fast? Blocking is so... anti-synergetic with the rest of the game. It's slow, tedious, and nobody ever does it. 

 

 I highly encourage y'all to please take this back to the drawing board. Because right now, this is looking worse than Damage 2.5 when that got announced. Please, keep melee fast, keep melee fun, but most important of all, keep it efficient. 

Thank you. 

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13 minutes ago, Mewvg2 said:

"all points are spent on attack" How is this not clear?

Melee combos were in some cases a massive pain to use, sure. That can be fixed without scrapping the whole current melee system! The simple removal of charge attacks would solve a significant portion of those problems. The 'cheese' is an interaction between two mods, very easy to fix without scrapping the whole current melee system.

A complete Rework is wholly unnecessary.

Disagree.  A complete rework is desperately needed.

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4 minutes ago, LuinCeltchar said:

My issue with spin2win was the spamming of one attack over and over again. But these changes look like you're going throw the baby out with the bathwater (nerfed range, combo counter gone aka no scalability, no punchthrough). I enjoy Warframe enough to have spent money on it because it's fast-paced. Slowing down the pace of melee combat will just ensure I never use it. I only hope that when this new melee system comes out you don't nerf the hell out of guns to make melee seem viable.

Right, the lack of scalability is what I'm worried about here. Melee needs to scale imo.

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