Melee: Present and Future goals!

[Paradoxbomb]

Not that I'm really expecting these to seen so far into the lifespan of this megathread, but I though I'd inject my own two cents onto what is good, bad, and mixed with regards to the proposed changes, as well as a few suggestions of my own:

The Good:

• Melee Getting a Secondary Attack Button for Combos - I always found the use of pauses and directional keys extremely awkward for combos, especially considering how attack speed makes it all the more difficult to keep track of when to use these inputs. Plus the addition of a second attack button just has a lot of potential IMO.
• Melee requiring LoS - Assuming it isn't a bugfest, I'll concede that this is a good change to remove some cheese from melee weapons with excessive range.
• Improved Slam attack control/damage - Yes please!
• Animation Cancels via Dodging - Also yes!

Mixed:

• Possible Removal of Channeling - In it's current state, channeling definitely isn't worth much aside from the occasional Life Strike heal due to it's cost of finite energy and underwhelming returns, but I'm not sure if removing entirely is the way to go. If channeling were to use it's own self-regenerating Stamina bar and had more of an impact on melee, you could justify keeping it around
• Dual-Wielding Single Melees + Sidearms - Okay I guess. Not something I was ever crazy about, and the whole sidearm + glaive thing is still kinda underwhelming but okay.
• Range Mod Changes - Being able to see the physical reach of our melee weapons will be nice, and while it is still a nerf adjusting range mods in accordance to weapon types is probably for the better

The Bad:

• Energy Drain on Block - Please no. Auto-reflecting projectiles is and building combo stacks is "cute" but seeing as we longer have control over this function, having to burn energy just to block is a no-no in my book.
• Heavy Attacks Resetting the Combo Counter - Not a fan of this. Maybe you could get away with losing some stacks on a heavy strike, but making combo multipliers only apply only to a single heavy attack sounds like a substantial and unnecessary nerf to the system.

My own suggestions:

• Stamina Bar for *Certain* Features - Now hear me out, I know the stamina bar in it's first iteration was loathed my many-a-player (including me) but for specific actions such as Charged/heavy attacks and, most notably, slide attacks, it could be useful in limiting how frequently players use these maneuvers and encourage them to be more tactical as oppose to the "spin-to-win" and "charge-to-win" tactics that plague(d) the current and previous meta. As mentioned before, it could also be used to justify Channeling's existence by being used in place of energy, allowing players to make use of it sparingly without having to expend energy that'd be better spent on abilities.
• Very Slight Lock-On for Air Attacks - Seeing as slam attacks are getting some QoL changes, it would be nice to see the same for air attacks. Currently they feel very clunky and very unreliable for hitting elevated targets like Ospreys and Grineer sensor panels; I think I very slight lock-on would help alleviate the inaccuracy of these attacks. Maybe as icing on the cake air attacks could have a guaranteed knock-down on smaller, airborne enemies (making it easier to finish them off).
• "Aimed" Melee Attacks - Something I've always extremely irritating about melee is how most melee attacks are locked onto specific horizontal planes, making it needlessly frustrating to hit enemies slightly above or below this plane (such as Maggots, Kavats, Ospreys). Not to mention enemies on slanted terrain further demonstrates this issue. It would be nice if melee attacks were directed towards the aiming reticule instead of locked in place, making it less cumbersome to deal with small/hovering enemies.

[Punk3r7]

If the issue with "Spin2win" is that it makes weapons be able to cheese everything because of how it works with BR, why not just make it apply the flat 90% after BR instead of derailing the entire melee system? Am I crazy in this line of thinking or something? Here, imagine the atterax with my change with its base 25% cc. Lets give it a 3x mult and maxed BR. That's a 148.75% cc. Now we'll add the flat 90% afterwards, bam 238.75%. That's a lot different than already red critting and beyond at 1.5x. There is no reason to destroy the solid foundation of the melee system that we have because of the interaction of 2 mods. Please, anyone reply to this and talk this over because its destroying me how no one just thought to do this.

[Oreades]

Hmm finally looked into the melee changes and I'm strangely OK with most of them. Mostly because I really don't use any mechanic/setup that depends on anything that's being altered.

That said the one thing that sorta worries me is the whole line of sight thing for melee. While I totally agree that it's stupid to be able to hit things through walls......that said if there is like the corner of a storage crate that barely blocks my target........ it's going to make me pretty unhappy. 

I'm also not sure if there is any way to do the strong attack without physically switching to your melee, if that is the case I can guarantee I'm essentially abandoning anything to do with the combo multiplier system. But if you can pull off a strong attack without the inconvenience of switching to melee, then it sounds OK.

[Milinko]

I may be a minority but I like it I just think if all of your combo is going to be lost on heavy attack then could it also be a true blue mega attack. What I mean is that for the attack to have it's range and other supplementary stats boosted by the counter so that even if I have to use all of  the combo counter then I can at least use it as a room clear. Also have the ability to combo it into other things like light heavy combos and for things like glaives shot combos, because even with dual wielding it more so feels like separate weapons with a faster "holster" rate.

[XenMaster]

They just need to put stagger mechanic on light attack like the dynasty warriors. well, you dont want to fight head on with corrupted detron lol.

[Rapidsoul]

Plz DE give a Broken Scepter 2nd live make it gain kuva by a small amount instead of health and energy orbs with this rework

[Tarak]

So I'm gonna make a second post in this because this rework/change is extremely important. That said I'll try to keep it simple and to the point (no promises though).

Fist I'm going to categorize your proposed changes into Stances, Channeling/blocking, Charge attacks/Combo Counter, and Range.

Stances:

I've really got nothing to say here other than 'yes, please, thank you'. Good changes all around.

Channeling/Blocking:

So, firstly, I understand where you're coming from on this, and I'm mostly perfectly okay with it. That said though, I think a few aspects of the function should be changed.

Causing energy drain on block is bad form. the energy economy of the game is really something you should avoid getting into again, especially since it's in a half stable place right now. Alternatively, I think a return of the stamina bar specifically as a measure of channeled blocking could work, where once you run out of stamina you start to block normally. It's also worth noting that actually blocking damage should be the only stamina drain, holding block when it's not actually doing anything shouldn't drain.

In addition, I recommend converting channeling mods to Heavy Attack mods (I'll explain further below) and let us cancel attacks/heavy attacks with a block in addition to rolling out of them.

Charge Attacks/Combo Counter:

Charge attacks as a separate attack is good, almost everything else you've discussed feels like a slap in the face.

1: Don't change how the combo counter works, if combo count related mods still effect normal attacks it means 'don't ever heavy melee' and if not, it means 'don't ever use combo count mods'. just keep it affecting normal attacks, and just nerf Maiming Strike as you should have just after it came out.

2: If you want to tie the combo counter into heavy melee, have it cost hits from the combo counter rather than clear the combo counter entirely. In addition, convert Channeling mods into heavy Attack mods that augment the combo count cost.

Range:

I totally understand where you're coming from. Not hitting through walls is an understandable change I personally have no problem with, and reducing the ridiculous ranges of some modded weapons is understandable.

However, why not make range mods a static value so they're more useful on weapons that have a short base range, rather than being most useful on weapons that already have ridiculous reach? In nerfing long weapon ranges and buffing short weapon ranges you're putting a band-aid on a gaping wound. The weapons that will benefit the most from reach mods will still be the longest weapons in the game, and unless you nerf range mods into the ground so they have a negligible effect you're not fixing anything. Also, if you do nerf range mods into the ground you'll just make them into yet another mod that no one ever uses.

~

TLDR: Don't touch energy economy please, don't nerf melee overall in response to meta that evolved from one mod you can change the balance of, and try not to break your game's core combat flow (which your proposed changes definitely will).

Seriously though, please read above if you skipped it, and if you agree that these are good ideas to bridge the divide between what we as a community want from Melee 2.0 and what DE wants from Melee 2.0 please give this a like/up-vote.

[rngd444]

6 hours ago, Punk3r7 said:

If the issue with "Spin2win" is that it makes weapons be able to cheese everything because of how it works with BR, why not just make it apply the flat 90% after BR instead of derailing the entire melee system?

This is pretty much the solution I was waiting for to come 'back' since: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/4phu5a/can_we_revert_the_maiming_strike_blood_rush_nerf/

Might've been just a bug back then, who knows. In any case, it really shouldn't take more than two years to figure this out.

 

These changes are equivalent to Damage 2.5 in the sense that it will potentially make all average melees less attractive (read: clunky due to hitting every invisible wall and object and corpse there is) while some select few might remain effective (and that'll most definitely not be achieved by some heavy attacks).

So yeah, simply remove flat crit chance bonuses (like Maiming Strike) being multiplied by combo crit and monitor for a month or two how the usage of slide builds will be reduced dramatically. And then, think about potential and actual improvements to the system without the emphasis on how to nerf this.

[S3tt]

ok lets see how this nonsense goes

 

[S3tt]

Just now, S3tt said:

ok lets see how this nonsense goes

 

ps maybe this will be the time to quit the game that is not warframe anymore 

 

 

[(PSN)Gin_Da_Merciless]

12 hours ago, Serialkillerwhale said:

And that will be a huge nerf compared to currently, where you can negate all but 15% of damage with the right weapon, after which it has to go through your armor. Enemies fire lots of bullets at you, any meter reasonable for earlygame starchart will be absolutely shredded lategame.

Then what would u recommend to fix it if it were to change? How about depending on the weapons block before the change the bar would fillup instead and not cost anything for a brief moment.

[sechedinquechofanchofan]

It seems to me a good base with necessary changes, like for example to increase the base of the range of all the weapons, the base of damage and to avoid the fact of crossing walls, because this last one is very unrealistic. The standardization of the guards is a very good idea, but it would depend on how it would be carried out and of course if it is true as mentioned above and there will be a movement to avoid melee attacks, that would be great (for example, it could be combined with a defense to make a detour and consequent counterattack [This could be done with double press of the direcction keys with a very reduced movement and fluidity to avoid that when running or walking subtract speed if not a small sprint for example and help slightly and thus make the movements, including jumps, even more dynamic]).

As for the combo multiplier and the decrease in the number of strokes required to increase the increments is fine, it becomes very necessary, but its exclusive application to a heavy attack for its disappearance is perhaps a major error, at very high levels it would be disastrous given that the number of enemies present in combat in this game is great and the damage too, you need to eliminate the enemies as quickly as possible so as not to die trying to perform a heavy attack to spend all the damage accumulated in a single enemy. This concept means that due to the imperative of the real, the combination between normal attacks and heavy attacks is inefficient, of little result if it is used continuously (due to the reset of the counter if heavy attack is used).

Instead of heavy attacks (which of course is still a good idea to explore a secondary line of movements) I would prefer that there be a button designated for grabs with the consequent choice to make projections, executions (being able to combine the combos of the guards with all this) and even the use of the enemy as a shield so that all the damage is concentrated while, for example, the body conserves enough surface but is degraded as Gears of War.

[Anthraxicus]

Quote

• You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!

Why not extend this option to sword and shield and let us dual wield a secondary and the shield? 

[(PSN)Gin_Da_Merciless]

1 hour ago, sechedinquechofanchofan said:

It seems to me a good base with necessary changes, like for example to increase the base of the range of all the weapons, the base of damage and to avoid the fact of crossing walls, because this last one is very unrealistic. The standardization of the guards is a very good idea, but it would depend on how it would be carried out and of course if it is true as mentioned above and there will be a movement to avoid melee attacks, that would be great (for example, it could be combined with a defense to make a detour and consequent counterattack [This could be done with double press of the direcction keys with a very reduced movement and fluidity to avoid that when running or walking subtract speed if not a small sprint for example and help slightly and thus make the movements, including jumps, even more dynamic]).

As for the combo multiplier and the decrease in the number of strokes required to increase the increments is fine, it becomes very necessary, but its exclusive application to a heavy attack for its disappearance is perhaps a major error, at very high levels it would be disastrous given that the number of enemies present in combat in this game is great and the damage too, you need to eliminate the enemies as quickly as possible so as not to die trying to perform a heavy attack to spend all the damage accumulated in a single enemy. This concept means that due to the imperative of the real, the combination between normal attacks and heavy attacks is inefficient, of little result if it is used continuously (due to the reset of the counter if heavy attack is used).

Instead of heavy attacks (which of course is still a good idea to explore a secondary line of movements) I would prefer that there be a button designated for grabs with the consequent choice to make projections, executions (being able to combine the combos of the guards with all this) and even the use of the enemy as a shield so that all the damage is concentrated while, for example, the body conserves enough surface but is degraded as Gears of War.

Reload button is unused. Why not make that the interact/stealth/finisher button that can also be used during combos instead hold, pause and directional inputs.

[Rhinowo]

My ideas for For melee3.0: do what they did for the primaries and secondaries, buff a bunch, also, fix enemies bodies counting as "walls", Make Maiming strike be NOT affected by blood rush, and have it be added after blood rush, say a 10% cc weapon, goes to 26.5, then add 90, but bloodrush doesn't go off the cc after Maiming strike, it goes off the cc b4 Maiming
And, keep the heavy attack and light attack idea, BUT keep channeling and tweak it a bit by reducing the energy per attack to 3, and, light attack still benefits from combo, but heavy attacks build combo twice as fast at a 10% speed loss,  but you do 50% more damage
Light attacks will have a.. I'd say a 10% damage loss, but a 20% speed buff(not affected by attack speed mods) 

[Krendal]

On 2018-05-14 at 7:58 AM, Yurinaga said:

Another question is: What about Landslide and the other Warframe powers that benefit from the combo counter?

LifeOfRio made a video on this. He talked about how frames like Valkyr, Ash, Atlas, and some of the other frames that benefit from the current system will be affected/buffed by the changes. Here is the video if your interested, he brings up some pretty good points. 

 

[(PSN)TheRallykiller]

21 hours ago, Xydeth said:

healing return *cough*

IMHO, Hirudo could inspire different melee weapon types/classes that offer the same passive effect of "%HP of total gained on X" (X = crit, status proc, whatever) and could be thematically supported without any lore revision.

I can't speak to the community's verdict on [Healing Return], but its popularity speaks for itself—maybe a melding of [Healing Return] + [Life Strike]?

[LoneForest]

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

RIP endless camping farming...without using wall as a cover its hard to survive long run. Also impossible to kill bugged enemies spawn behind the wall. So funny when newbie players running here and there in survival mission and keep dying and the match ended up in 10-20 min max or campers just leave. Conclusion, RIP melee camping and farming. If they need to nerf something just remove those god Riven mods which making warframe pay 2 win.

[LemonNade4Kavinh]

In my opinion now, after reading so much comment. what i love and what i fear so far are.

The Good: 

- No more wall hack, let be honest that was wall hacking......

- melee get a new heavy attack (atk speed does effect yay)

- slam can be aims 

- dodge cancel animation

- combo easier to build

- melee weapon damage buff 

- stand revisited (thanks god we need better combo and some stance is being ignore) (hope stand have more AOE and cone attack, due to game too much horde mode)

The fear or bad:

- channeling and block combine (so basically if you doing a block melee with any stance like Blind justice, tempo royal ) it will drain both energy and attack. 

- nerf range mod ( the only thing left for maiming strike is Range so nerf it, player still going just move a bit closer to enemy.) 

- combo effect heavy attack (plesae no) (this just going to push all combo stances or anything to a heavy attack Cone or aoe. By stack combo then AOE clear you just created another maiming combo)

Suggestion:

Let not bother nerf the range. keep it, whether DE nerfed or not player just going to move closer it still wipe area. Nothing else be new.  For Channeling let just make it a special activation mode, like DMC, Sengoku Basura, and Dynasty warrior, DMC (could be Devil trigger, player rage, ability is block. What give are + range (Could stack or not with P reach) +damage, Combo Counter Stay even when not attack until the energy go enpty, Ignore Bubble or Stopped by the corpus bubble, give a Clone like or a Big Over Shadow of the Frame that also have a weapon in hand around the Frame or on top of the frame. That show the new Range of the attack and also Automatic deflect and stop incoming damage.) Sengoku Basura, Got a mode like Devil trigger with Nobunaga Oda (where he go Full blade mode, Give him a protective shroud, Increase Range, a bit more dmg, Give him a new move that exclusive to that weapon, + move speed, and also give him some life regen.) For DW ( can be a mouso attack, The frame goes on a Power stance, Does a MASSIVE Damage Move, huge AOE, and it Kill everything but cost huge energy. To stop player from abusing it, Increase energy each use or have to be 100 energy per use.) There are a lot of game that have horde mode and they have some way to help player. 

[hooperinius]

Range is the only thing that needs to be "nerfed" TBH. A 100% cap would be fine. Then you could still kill those enemies that are stuck in the walls, have more range on polearms etc.

It looks like they are changing lots of things as well, from weapon damages to the way that slam and heavy attacks work (and how fast crit builds up) so they will likely create unintended changes/lots of bugs that we don't have right now.

[MirageKnight]

34 minutes ago, LoneForest said:

Conclusion, RIP melee camping and farming.

And long may it stay dead.

[HeartPurity]

Is it delivered in the latest patch now? I don't see any differences yet. Or when will it get released? It is disturbing the way I roll my rivens. 

[BeeEmJay]

Melee is my absolute favourite part of the game. It flows beautifully with the movement system and transitions very well to and from gun-play.

It has low and accessible entry level that's forgiving and stylish but it can be tweaked and perfected into true end game.

My favourite thing about the current melee? I can leave guns at home and still be viable. A true space ninja.

 

I'll be honest, I trust your decisions for the most part but this doesn't fill me with confidence. Don't take that awesomeness away please.

Just mildly tweak what you have with 2.0 and nothing more. Cap range and prevent wall clipping.

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, HeartPurity said:

s it delivered in the latest patch now? I don't see any differences yet.

The vast bulk of the melee rework is still internal.

Something that big would DEFINITELY be in the patch notes.

Edit: Important Clarification!

Quote

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

That's live as of today. Everything else is still pending.

[sechedinquechofanchofan]

hace 5 horas, (PS4)marcellusg90 dijo:

Reload button is unused. Why not make that the interact/stealth/finisher button that can also be used during combos instead hold, pause and directional inputs.

I had not thought about it and you are absolutely right, it is a simple idea that would give a quick solution to the problem.