Melee: Present and Future goals!

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, Nompii said:

Will the mod [Dispatch Overdrive] grant a movement speed buff from blocking, or finisher kills?

Would make more sense to use Heavy Attack kill, no?

In general the channelin mods should be moved to heavies:

Lifestrike - lifesteal on heavy attack.

Killing Blow - heavy attack damage.

So on and so forth.

Channeling efficiency could be "combo cost."

[Jin_Lightning]

I pretty much like everything here. Build combo attacks with light hits, then spend the damage in a heavy unit, like a Bombard, Tech, or Ancient. As the the blocking side, parrying or the counterattacking needs to be more functional, as it seems kind of random at the moment. Also for blocking attacks, ranged or otherwise, maybe the dreaded little green bar should come back, JUST for that?

[Takkov]

so instead of applying 5-10 hits you charge one attack that deals maybe triple damage and lose combo stacks on top of it. doesnt really sound fun at all, especially since if you have combos anywhere, you want to keep them as high as possible. I do quite like the Devil May Cry series and other games with such combat systems and for having only one melee button, warframe is nowhere close to those in regards of a good combo system. Melee combat is what I like most in warframe and using maiming rarely to never, I dont see it as an issue at all. as for slam attacks, I hate using them, for the very same reason I dont use hammers. if the enemy flies away, you cant hit him. heavy attacks are, as I already said, not worth at all the time it takes to perform them. Combo counter is also pretty much the only way, some weapons like the okina, dual daggers in general and other ultra short range weapons can compete decently with other weapons, as only through this they can get close to anything with more range in terms of damage. So by taking away damage on the combo counter short ranged low-mid base damage become even worse in terms of damage.

For the whole rework to be better, take a step back, look at the whole combat system and enemies and rework it from ground, bandaiding one weapon type after the other without a visible or general combat in regards to scaling, enemy density, damage tiers, advantages of using a specific weapon is counterproductive at this point.

[motorfirebox]

7 hours ago, Takkov said:

so instead of applying 5-10 hits you charge one attack that deals maybe triple damage and lose combo stacks on top of it. doesnt really sound fun at all, especially since if you have combos anywhere, you want to keep them as high as possible. I do quite like the Devil May Cry series and other games with such combat systems and for having only one melee button, warframe is nowhere close to those in regards of a good combo system. Melee combat is what I like most in warframe and using maiming rarely to never, I dont see it as an issue at all. as for slam attacks, I hate using them, for the very same reason I dont use hammers. if the enemy flies away, you cant hit him. heavy attacks are, as I already said, not worth at all the time it takes to perform them. Combo counter is also pretty much the only way, some weapons like the okina, dual daggers in general and other ultra short range weapons can compete decently with other weapons, as only through this they can get close to anything with more range in terms of damage. So by taking away damage on the combo counter short ranged low-mid base damage become even worse in terms of damage.

For the whole rework to be better, take a step back, look at the whole combat system and enemies and rework it from ground, bandaiding one weapon type after the other without a visible or general combat in regards to scaling, enemy density, damage tiers, advantages of using a specific weapon is counterproductive at this point.

From what I understand, you don't lose combo stacks "on top of it", you deal triple (or more) damage because of the combo stacks. If you do the heavy attack without a combo stack, you do slightly-more-than-a-regular-attack damage. And combo stacks are a) not going to increase base damage as much, and b) ramp up much more quickly, so you can get a 4x multiplier in (as an example) a minute or two, rather than spending ten minutes building those stacks. But the 4x multiplier won't actually increase your light attack damage by that much, if at all.

[Takkov]

On 2018-07-29 at 5:59 PM, motorfirebox said:

From what I understand, you don't lose combo stacks "on top of it", you deal triple (or more) damage because of the combo stacks. If you do the heavy attack without a combo stack, you do slightly-more-than-a-regular-attack damage. And combo stacks are a) not going to increase base damage as much, and b) ramp up much more quickly, so you can get a 4x multiplier in (as an example) a minute or two, rather than spending ten minutes building those stacks. But the 4x multiplier won't actually increase your light attack damage by that much, if at all. 

If you perform a heavy or slam attack, combo charges are used as fuel to deal more damage. But there is no reason to change anything, if it is only a change to how melee combat works. The enemy scaling wont change, weapons that can get decent damage out of a combination of many status procs and combo multiplier will get respectively worse as weapons with higher stats turn way more powerfull in comparsion. Heavy attacks and slam attacks feel very out of place in the game, in my opinion, so that I never use them. Especially slam attacks tend to knock enemies away from you which is annoying. I feel that with this so called rework many of the core issues of the game are still not addressed at all. Those would be: enemy scaling and weapon power levels in accordance to that. I will agree that the combo system in the way it is now is fairly flawed. On the other hand I dont see an improvement in the one presented. Building up combo's should be a rewarding experience for skillfull play, which in horde games is usually measured by: how fast can I kill? The combo system also is only for melee weapons. In a better approach to the whole "Tenno are masters of all weapons" concept, the combo counter should extend to all equipped weapons. If you want to take DMC as an example: If you hit an enemy with your sword, you gain combo stacks, if you do so again, you gain more of it. But if you just continue using the same combo all the time, there is no increase at some point. Because of that you are encouraged to learn the multiple combos and perform them in successions, finding an optimal way. Included in that are also your ranged weapons, which you can use to maintain your multiplier, if you use ebony and ivory, or with other weapons massively increase it by spending a lot of ammo. In addition, you also use abilities to keep up with enemies, land hits or kill enemies, so you can also increase said combo mulitplier by that.

I think, that if warframe approached something like a combo system, that is rewarding for using different weapons in a fight, then there would be quite a lot more potential to the whole thing than just by changing numbers on the melee weapons a bit.

[Toran]

Make Melee great again! *Cough*

Well, only release will show, but...

Live Feed of a recycling facility for melee weapons with maiming capabilities (they're about to be maimed).

Combo-Counter
Bad, bad idea. The one thing that allowed scaling damage for a good while shall be sacrificed for a charge attack nobody cares about? I'm not convinced the enhanced general melee damage will really cut it for long...

Combos
I do not know a single person deliberately using stance combos. Do you?
Atm. they're simply not worth it. And even before Maiming Strike was a thing, they were not worth it, too little effect, too long to trigger. Combos better be easy and doable on the move or have incredible benefits like a badass AOE, buff, debuff etc. If they just look fancy like the combos in the absolutely ridiculous Cetus demo, this will be the result:

 

Careful, Icarus!
Before you get too ambitious with changes and extra animations again, look at how your majority of players deals with content: More Power, RRR! Warframe isn't an artful ballet of deady timed moves. It's a power creep's game, where you dispose of your enemies in the quickest way possible. Melee can look cool as [sexual intercourse], if it can't compete with headshots or skill frames, nobody will care for longer than a week.

Don't forget Conditional Overload!
And while you're burying Maiming Strike, don't  forget Conditional Overload (even deadlier!) - no need to wait for Melee 4.0.

Support for the Melee 3.0 release
I organized some professional ladies for your Melee 3.0 release party (nope, no Harrison there):

Nobody mourns better than a Pro

[(PSN)Touha9]

Trying to wait patiently for Friday's Devstream announcement....just a few days away until we hopefully get a Melee deep dive look....

[IfritKajiTora]

It would be cool if there would be some directional attack that push enemies to the sides you want.

-Dodge left + swing = swing from left side to right, that push enemies to RIGHT.
-dodge right + swing = swing from right side to left, that push enemies to LEFT.

Or maybe something like medium attacks (direction+hold attack for half second)

So there woudl be Light attack, medium attacks, and heavy attacks.

With that you could make an advantage to gather in one ring and then use Charge Attack as finishing move.

Dark Messiah of might and magic have that mechanic with directional hit where you can use it to your advantage when fighting against many enemies, for example to not let them attack you in group, or use map environment. All these mechanics in game (I did not read them all of course just basic) gave me 3 years of having fun.
 

 

[FreeWilliam]

As someone who melees constantly and gleefully while using the combo counter and channeling like crazy (Dispatch Overdrive for speed and Enduring Affliction to handle heavy targets without meme builds) I'm pretty nervous about melee 3.0

Excited about a couple of bits (directional slams and breaking out of combos in particular...love me some mobility!), but also nervous because it doesn't seem like most of the content creators melee the same way.  

I like channeling and the combo counter buildup because they both give me 'throttles', so I'm not constantly one shotting everything but can quickly build things up against a Nox as needed.

I'm definitely going to withhold judgement, but could we get some verification that people like me have a voice in the dev room too? 

I build to make melee cathartic and fun and it's kind of my therapy.

[Technomole]

I’m all for Melee 3.0 in theory as the system as is needs a shake up. Amongst other things, the “spin to win” mechanic is just awful for the game imo.

Channeling is useless to me (and to a large portion of the community it seems) as I prefer Healing Return over Life Strike and so wouldn’t miss it at all if it just disappeared. 

Charge/heavy attacks are slow and cumbersome and not worth the effort and as mentioned by fellow Tenno, having a timing based combo system that can be neutralised by a bad connection is frustrating and for me personally it halts the flow of combat.

Slam attacks when paired with a Zaw and Exodia Hunt is incredibly useful as being able to perform finishers with any frame almost on demand can get you out of a sticky situation nicely. Even more so if you throw in a fully ranked Arcane Ultimatum as who doesn’t want a flat 600 armour for 20 seconds after performing a finisher?

Schpam really hit the nail on the head a few posts back (and articulated things far better then I could!) and offers some excellent options that will hopefully be looked at by DE. 

[Kenoman]

18 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said:

It would be cool if there would be some directional attack that push enemies to the sides you want.

-Dodge left + swing = swing from left side to right, that push enemies to RIGHT.
-dodge right + swing = swing from right side to left, that push enemies to LEFT.

Or maybe something like medium attacks (direction+hold attack for half second)

So there woudl be Light attack, medium attacks, and heavy attacks.

With that you could make an advantage to gather in one ring and then use Charge Attack as finishing move.

Dark Messiah of might and magic have that mechanic with directional hit where you can use it to your advantage when fighting against many enemies, for example to not let them attack you in group, or use map environment. All these mechanics in game (I did not read them all of course just basic) gave me 3 years of having fun.
 

 

"It would be cool if there would be some directional attack that push enemies to the sides you want.

-Dodge left + swing = swing from left side to right, that push enemies to RIGHT.
-dodge right + swing = swing from right side to left, that push enemies to LEFT."

I think this is a horrible idea. I can tell you enemy DISPLACEMENT is detrimental to maintaining damage consistency and will only hinder your team mates and yourself as you'd only

make it harder to damage the enemies.

Dark Messiah and warframe is not the same game so the concept doesn't seem compatible.

[Kenoman]

On 2018-07-27 at 2:16 AM, (XB1)ZenithLord 42 said:

After reading through the thread and having awhile to contemplate on melee in its current state and the changes that want to be implemented, here are a few of my thoughts! 

1. Melee should always have been blocked by solid objects! The change to finally stop melee passing through, well everything, is long overdue! 

2. "Spin to Win" has also been long overdue for a rework! The mechanic is okay, but the combination of ranged melee weapons, weapons passing through objects, and the ability to mod for insane damage on spin attacks really made it the go to way to dispatch hordes of enemies! 

The main problem really comes from the ability to slide attack and roll, slide, and bullet jump indefinitely. Dodge mechanics would be a non-issue if they didn't cover more ground than running and the enemies weren't so spread out! 

Decrease the distance dodge maneuvers cover, but only decrease bullet jumps a little! An overall decrease in distance would actually let us benefit more from mods that give us bonuses for dodge mechanics! 

3. Percentage based modding can be a major issue in a game where a spin to win melee is a problem. Giving us a percentage based system allows us to reach absurd damage values and can cause us to abuse the system rather than use the system. 

 I'm not going to go into the calculations, but when you have higher number values, any increase by percentage will provide significant increase overall to damage values. Adding in Maiming Strike which gives a flat 90% to be a critical hit on top of a high range, high damage, high critical chance, high critical damage, combo counter building, Blood Rush modded Atterax; you could easily get damage values bordering on the absurd! 

Maiming Strike isn't really the problem, the combination of all of these things (percentage based damage values, range, combo counter, etc...) plus Maiming Strike has put us in the current "Spin to Win" situation. 

The only way to fix this is to give us one system of modding that doesn't use a percentage based system that compounds the problem by using more percentage based options! We need more flat numerical additions as opposed to exponential increases! If I need to do x amount of damage I don't need to (insert convoluted Blood Rush critical chance damage value calculation here)! 

4. Channeling shouldn't be combined with blocking, but should be integrated into more mods to give it an actual use. 

5. Charge attacks are okay, again, when it is easier to slide and spin, the feature won't be used. 

 

 

Really, the main issue is the modding system giving us increases to damage values that are already good and not increasing damage values that aren't very good. Mods like Maiming Strike help bad weapons become better by giving us a flat increase instead of a percentage. All of the other issues such as channeling and "spin to win" really are just symptoms. 

I've tried to offer my opinion on changes, but frankly any rework that tries to fix things that are cheese (spin to win) and fix things that are niche (channeling) isn't going to change a thing until the mod system is looked at! I sound like a broken record... 

2. "Spin to Win" has also been long overdue for a rework! The mechanic is okay, but the combination of ranged melee weapons, weapons passing through objects, and the ability to mod for insane damage on spin attacks really made it the go to way to dispatch hordes of enemies! 

We don't see this often anymore in games instead you have saryn or mesa or excalibur straight up murdering everything with just their abilities.

3. Percentage based modding can be a major issue in a game where a spin to win melee is a problem. Giving us a percentage based system allows us to reach absurd damage values and can cause us to abuse the system rather than use the system. 

See point 2 it's not an issue anymore. NEXT

... Oh okay so we just drag on the issues about spinning. Welp nevermind.

[Technomole]

I’ve been running lots of Mot and Kuva Survivals recently and it seems that over 50% of the time there’s at least 1 spintowinner in the squad. 

[HIGHDAMAGE]

8 minutes ago, Arrcee said:

I’ve been running lots of Mot and Kuva Survivals recently and it seems that over 50% of the time there’s at least 1 spintowinner in the squad. 

didn't they fix the punch through walls/objects ain't u satisfied yet 

They see me rollin, they hatin 

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

5 hours ago, IKenofoxI said:

2. "Spin to Win" has also been long overdue for a rework! The mechanic is okay, but the combination of ranged melee weapons, weapons passing through objects, and the ability to mod for insane damage on spin attacks really made it the go to way to dispatch hordes of enemies! 

We don't see this often anymore in games instead you have saryn or mesa or excalibur straight up murdering everything with just their abilities.

3. Percentage based modding can be a major issue in a game where a spin to win melee is a problem. Giving us a percentage based system allows us to reach absurd damage values and can cause us to abuse the system rather than use the system. 

See point 2 it's not an issue anymore. NEXT

... Oh okay so we just drag on the issues about spinning. Welp nevermind.

Did you intend to actually provide an intelligent critique or demonstrate your lack of knowledge by being disrespectful, to your fellow Tenno? 

[FreeWilliam]

Have people tested to verify that removing the channeling and combo counter multipliers won't result in builds that end up making early waves too easy in order to be viable against later ones?

[(PSN)Anfffy]

Getting rid of spin to win and melee through walls I agree with.

the thing I find fun about warframe is melee and building up damage over time with the combo counter so giving a flat buff to normal attacks seems so boring to me I think it should just stay how it is.

I'm interested to see how this will work on endless runs is this flat buff going to be enough to keep you in a 1- 2 hour survival? And if it is won't that make heaven attacks pointless in normal missions?

[Milinko]

So my channeling mods (especially the rivens I BOUGHT)useless if this goes through as is huh.

[iuki.]

i just worry melee 3.0 gets way to complex in button presses and or nerfed to the point it's better to whip out an ignis wraith/amperax/arca plasmor/etc and hose down the room that way instead; same result for a lot less work? hopefully melee stays viable, it's the reason I play this game. :s

[TeCoolTenno]

I'm not too sure about the first comment's idea about quick ranged fire and merging guns and melee weapons into a single mode... For some people who use weapons of similar uses, maybe, but I use sniper/bow, castanas/gammacor/pistol and single dagger, all 3 of which work at completely different ranges and situations. How am I going to scope and shoot normally without it being extremely janky and painful to control, with the constant risk of me cancelling my sniper combo counter by accidentally locking myself into a melee attack animation then taking too long to re-adjust my aim after scoping again

 

Maybe if there were a system where you can have 'stance profiles' to switch between (instead of primary-secondary-melee) where you customize them by selecting a weapon for each hand (or only one hand, if you really want, or if it's a ak- weapon, or a really heavy melee weapon), and can choose the bindings (so I bind primary fire of weapon A to left click, secondary to right click, primary fire of weapon B to Q, secondary to E, etc etc.) I'd be 100% supporting it. The ability to throw castanas, then detonate them while in sniper scope, would be lit.

 

Channeling while using sniper rifle though... oh god yes

[(XBOX)GrandSageDragon]

imagine if pc got melee 3.0 when the acolytes return next week with revenant who will be released with it 

 

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 hour ago, (XB1)EmpreyonQueen said:

imagine if pc got melee 3.0 when the acolytes return next week with revenant who will be released with it 

 

That's what I'm thinking. The Acolytes showing up is awfully coincidental...

[DreadWarlock]

On 2018-07-24 at 6:27 PM, SirSovereign said:

There's a whole lot of "you fail to see" in there, then you throw this in.. I only play with sword, rapier, and heavy blade weapons so none of this describes me.. I use crit rivens so I can reach number like 500%+ crits so it multiplies the multiplier itself, gives slash and viral procs and ends enemies with scaling.. Which is what Acolyte mods are for.

 

 

The whole reason the combo change is a downgrade is because the damage multiplier only applies to heavy attacks and the combo counter is spent when using that heavy attack.

Combo is spent but it builds up much faster, normal melee will work wonders for status procs while Heavy attacks will kill. THis is what you guys are forgetting. Losing combo meter is only a problem when the combo meter takes whole centuries to fill up 

[DreadWarlock]

On 2018-07-24 at 9:29 AM, vaarnaaarne said:

Mobility and reach is generally the issue that will make or break a stance and weapon (unless it simply lacks sufficient damage modifiers or such). This is indeed the biggest problem for Fist and Sparring, as the reach is simply too little, horizontal AoE is non-existant, and the forward momentum that Gaia's Tragedy and Brutal Tide have is simply too awkward to use, they move too far with very few enemies hit while at it because of the far too limited reach. It shouldn't be too much of a problem to visually justify bumping up range on Fist/Sparring/whatever to an acceptable level, if the moves are flashy enough you wouldn't even need something like a shockwave visual effect. The secondary problem that Sparring and Fist have is that they're effectively workable with Atlas only because they have absolutely no knockdown immunity mid-combo, which I would say would be something that'd be also important for melee than just being faster at getting around in a fight than shooting.

If one were to think of a stance that should be viewed as something of a baseline that other stances should gather around, I would argue it'd be Tempo Royale since it has just about the ideal combination of everything (save cue-a-finisher moves, but that's better off as kind of a specialist thing IMO), it moves fast, it hits fast, hard and wide (and far due to weapons associated), knocks down enemies in groups, and is rarely vulnerable to knockdown mid-combo. Plus in the current IMO flawed way inputs work, it has two good reliable input combo loops, which leads us to...

The problem with the current way inputs (don't) work. I would say playing Tekken is ill-advised, Warframe is too fast for the way stance inputs are currently handled. It'd be a better option to axe all Hold, Delay, and other commands and instead focus on having multiple attack buttons which have their own stance-determined combo loops that can be switched between fluidly. Making melee inputs better and more suited to Warframe's speed is a more important thing than changing how channeling or combo counter works IMO. Melee inputs need to be reliably and perpetually accessed because of the speed of Warframe, particularly swing speeds possible for many weapons as it's often most desirable to swing really fast, and enemies do not individually last long so the combo system should be more modeled after something like Koei's Warriors games or Platinum's MGR or NieR:A. A second melee attack button is all that's really needed in that regard.

EDIT: So in short, what melee needs is at least two attack buttons, axing superfluous combos with awkward/inappropriate inputs, faster mobility, and sufficiently far-reaching horizontal swings in the combos available.

 

Also, more weapons need to blow things up to gibs, since that always makes a weapon worthy of using more. Best kick in the game is part of the Blind Justice RMB combo, because it can bisect enemies and send those giblets flying while at it.

By tekken I meant to take inspiration from it's animations not it's gameplay. Where the moves shows exactly what they should aim for to make a proper fist/sparring stance.

[Sesaline]

Personally, I don't get the point of this change at all. What is the difference between someone standing safely across the room and firing off a Lenz as apposed to someone else jumping into the fight (putting themselves in a risky situation) and slashing up the mobs instead? What does it matter? It's a horde style looter shooter for a reason. If you guys want to take the fun out of mass slaying these hordes, then maybe you should overall rethink what Warframe is and stop passing it off as a horde slaying looter shooter. You're nerfing AoE nuke frames and AoE melee efficiency.. but at what cost? The cost in this case is literally our fun factor. Yes, it does feel badass to slide through a mob that is busting up my team and making them start to sweat whether or not we can handle level 50 enemies. But I like being the one there to show them that we can and very much will be okay, and one day if they can gather up some better mods, they will be able to perform just as well, if not better.

Basically, why the heck is this necessary? Because some people get upset in PUBLIC queue about someone else outperforming others? Because they feel 'bored'? Well then maybe they need to get some better setups on their weapons and frames and stop crying because another person is having fun. Who cares about number of kills? Who freakin cares. If you do, then you need to reevaluate public queuing with the expectation that everyone should play as you deem fit. This is all ridiculous and very over the top. I hate manually using just the melee weapons in this game. They aren't fluid and most times doing this is what gets me killed, quite frankly. Making the combo meter deplete on one heavy attack is a terrible idea in both theory and practice. 

 

There is more to this game than just the starchart levels of enemies. They go up much, much higher than that and will huddle up massively with tons of debuffs... and somehow melee 3.0 is still a legitimate plan. Removing attacking through walls and fixing range modifiers to be better on some weapons was where it should have stopped. Everything else apart from the clunky melee mode is fine as is. Slide critting isn't the only meta, just like 100% status Tigris Prime isn't the only meta. What people choose to play/do with their free time is up to them, yet here we are yet again getting unwanted changes because of a small vocal minority who think "it isn't fair or fun".