Melee: Present and Future goals!

[(PSN)jman10089]

14 minutes ago, Air-mage said:

the annoying part will probably include attacks not opening boxes and attacks getting stuck and deleted completely in everything in closed spaces

As long as I can still put blood on the walls by slashing them I'm happy.

[PepsilonEagle]

I've mentioned this in another topic but I'll say it again here: I really need the proposed melee holstering changes from devstream 116 to not turn melee attack and primary fire into mutually exclusive keybinds. Hammering E in addition to running around and bullet jumping really piles on the repetitive motion stress on my wrist, and while using a side button on the mouse is okay when I just want to quick attack a box or one or two enemies, it's not half as good as just using the left mouse button proper to attack when I have a melee fully drawn.

[(PSN)RenxHoshigaki]

I have a few fears about this that should be addressed. (if they have someone do let me know)

1. Stance Mods - I heard stance mods were being removed. I love stance mods and stance combos. They make it so people don't mindlessly spam a single button. Some require much finesse which is great. They also allow my weapon to fight different from someone else with the same weapon and gives more freedom to customize your play style. Romoving this without an equal or better replacement system just is not ok period. And lets not even begin top think of all of the players that have invested and fought through hours to days, some even weeks farming for their stance mods that they really wanted. Removing those is a kick in the face to those poor players...

2. Channeling - Correct. Channel blocking is useless. But what about ummm...I dunno….."LIFE_STRIKE"? Not every frame can heal. Condition Overload with Healing return is nice, but what about the Crit Weapons that have low status? Life Strike is necessary and without the ability to control it through channeling it will become obsolete

3. Spin to Win - Hated it, always will hate it. Excellent call DE. It honestly is just an abuse of an exploit that happened simply because you cannot predict every possibility that millions of players can try. 

4. Exalted Weapons - So....I was going through mods on my Wukong's exalted Staff.....No "BLOOD_RUSH", No "BODY_COUNT" on what is supposed to be a crit weapon. Yet I can use "CONDITION_OVERLOAD". I thought the whole purpose of separating mods was to make them more relevant? Well with this Exalted weapons are far less relevant than they ever were. Why would I use a weak exalted weapon, when by blood rush and body count standard melee is so much stronger? This should also be addressed in melee 3.0 and I feel like no one is looking at that. Exalted weapons either need to be fixed or replaced by an ability which we can actually use.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

When melee 3.0 drops, will I be able to grab my gun blade and shoot with my left hand, Instead of using my right hand only?

So much wasted movement as seen in the 2 short vids below. I hope that will be addressed to be more fluid.

Thank you 

[FreeWilliam]

20 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

 

1. Stance Mods - I heard stance mods were being removed. I love stance mods and stance combos. They make it so people don't mindlessly spam a single button. Some require much finesse which is great. They also allow my weapon to fight different from someone else with the same weapon and gives more freedom to customize your play style. Romoving this without an equal or better replacement system just is not ok period. And lets not even begin top think of all of the players that have invested and fought through hours to days, some even weeks farming for their stance mods that they really wanted. Removing those is a kick in the face to those poor players...

That would be a horrible, horrible thing IMHO.  Stances are the best thing in the game and if anything they should be more diverse, provide more variety, and be available for all weapon types (Sniper stances, akimbo stances, melee stances that auto-taunt melee mobs, putting channeling back inside specific stances, etc.).

I've heard nothing about this and hope it's a rumor.  If it's not I'm seriously concerned. 

20 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

 

2. Channeling - Correct. Channel blocking is useless. But what about ummm...I dunno….."LIFE_STRIKE"? Not every frame can heal. Condition Overload with Healing return is nice, but what about the Crit Weapons that have low status? Life Strike is necessary and without the ability to control it through channeling it will become obsolete

I channel all the time and channeling itself is plenty useful (I use Healing Return more than life strike though).  I feel like it was the best way to properly scale melee and honestly don't feel like it's my fault that most of the content creators were doing Spin2Win or Windmill builds.  As far as I'm concerned I was doing melee better and making it viable against level 200+ enemies while toning it down so I wasn't one-shotting everything at lower levels.  (Enduring Affliction for scaling, Rage fueled channeling builds, lots of combo counter fuel with no combo counter support so it vanishes quickly, no pressure point, etc.)

I think this was more of a community problem that was created by people copying each other.  I was hoping DE would solve Spin2Win and Windmill by making un-invested melee less viable (not counting the combo counter for slide attacks and when outside your stance would have solved those problems in one go) and am a bit nervous about babies getting thrown away with the bathwater, especially with the melee we're seeing in the devstreams. 

Instead we're doing a full rework...which I DO like in a lot of ways...I think it's due and love some of what I'm seeing. (Directional slams?  Mobility when in the air? yes please!), but I'd like to see some examples of melee against hordes of enemies in the chaos rather than just @DE.Rebecca fighting individual mobs with a bunch of empty space around them. I just have no idea what to expect right now.

[Valthryn]

If we're going to keep this combo system and split the attacks into light and heavy attacks on their own buttons, I would suggest that the damage percentages and activation methods of each move in a stance be looked at as well. Most combo-based combat systems (Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, etc.) result in the majority of players spamming the easiest to perform combo or just button mashing until something cool happens, even if they know a few of the combos, which is exactly what we're doing now, except we're only mashing one button: E. A way to prevent this would be to design something similar to Vindictus' combo-based melee combat system: where combos are made accessible via a branching tree system where performing a certain number of light attacks in a row unlocks a specific heavy attack, with each number of light attacks (in Lann's case 1-4) having its own unique heavy attack assigned to it, and, most importantly, a very high level of damage difference being present between light and heavy attacks, so that heavy attacks are the goal and light attacks are functionally just interactive cooldowns to prevent spamming overpowered moves. A system like this requires players to know the combos to be effective and prevents button mashing from being a viable meta.

[goomowiec]

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

Stance Mods - I heard stance mods were being removed.

Fake news, just watch earlier devstreams

[Loza03]

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

1. Stance Mods - I heard stance mods were being removed. I love stance mods and stance combos. They make it so people don't mindlessly spam a single button. Some require much finesse which is great. They also allow my weapon to fight different from someone else with the same weapon and gives more freedom to customize your play style. Romoving this without an equal or better replacement system just is not ok period. And lets not even begin top think of all of the players that have invested and fought through hours to days, some even weeks farming for their stance mods that they really wanted. Removing those is a kick in the face to those poor players...

Nope,  these are staying. They're being changed to be unified in terms of how you use them (basically, stationary is one combo chain, attacking while moving is another, and block combos are the third) but, aside from that, all the stances are staying. If the dual dagger demonstration is any indication, they're actually taking steps to make stances more different - one dual daggers stance has the block combo start with a long, straight thrust similar to a DMC stinger move, whereas another has a wide leaping strike that covers less forward distance but hits wider.

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

2. Channeling - Correct. Channel blocking is useless. But what about ummm...I dunno….."LIFE_STRIKE"? Not every frame can heal. Condition Overload with Healing return is nice, but what about the Crit Weapons that have low status? Life Strike is necessary and without the ability to control it through channeling it will become obsolete

Unknown, but current theories put it on the heavy attack.

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

3. Spin to Win - Hated it, always will hate it. Excellent call DE. It honestly is just an abuse of an exploit that happened simply because you cannot predict every possibility that millions of players can try. 

Some questions still remain - how much Memeing strike has been touched remains to be seen - but if nothing else, it should be less prevelant since melee range is getting looked at, meaning it should be less dominant over regular stance play.

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

4. Exalted Weapons - So....I was going through mods on my Wukong's exalted Staff.....No "BLOOD_RUSH", No "BODY_COUNT" on what is supposed to be a crit weapon. Yet I can use "CONDITION_OVERLOAD". I thought the whole purpose of separating mods was to make them more relevant? Well with this Exalted weapons are far less relevant than they ever were. Why would I use a weak exalted weapon, when by blood rush and body count standard melee is so much stronger? This should also be addressed in melee 3.0 and I feel like no one is looking at that. Exalted weapons either need to be fixed or replaced by an ability which we can actually use.

They've never mentioned this I'm afraid. Although, for right now, you can work around the blood rush body count with Wukong's passive combo duration and some of the set mods (gladiator, I think) which produce a mini body count. Not the best, but still.

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Nope,  these are staying. They're being changed to be unified in terms of how you use them (basically, stationary is one combo chain, attacking while moving is another, and block combos are the third) but, aside from that, all the stances are staying. If the dual dagger demonstration is any indication, they're actually taking steps to make stances more different - one dual daggers stance has the block combo start with a long, straight thrust similar to a DMC stinger move, whereas another has a wide leaping strike that covers less forward distance but hits wider.

Unknown, but current theories put it on the heavy attack.

Some questions still remain - how much Memeing strike has been touched remains to be seen - but if nothing else, it should be less prevelant since melee range is getting looked at, meaning it should be less dominant over regular stance play.

They've never mentioned this I'm afraid. Although, for right now, you can work around the blood rush body count with Wukong's passive combo duration and some of the set mods (gladiator, I think) which produce a mini body count. Not the best, but still.

The stance combos are being shaved down to two, the block as stated in the devstream was not a combo but changed to a distance clearer. The stationary and forward combos will be put  together from the movesets of the existing stances. Think Conclave stances essentially.

[Loza03]

34 minutes ago, Urlan said:

The stance combos are being shaved down to two, the block as stated in the devstream was not a combo but changed to a distance clearer. The stationary and forward combos will be put  together from the movesets of the existing stances. Think Conclave stances essentially.

I thought that too, but there were several moves they performed that didn't show up in either plain string when they demo'd them (for example, the Tempo Royale flip slam thing) and they always came after the gap closer, so it seems they have their own combo string.

[Luka-Song]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I thought that too, but there were several moves they performed that didn't show up in either plain string when they demo'd them (for example, the Tempo Royale flip slam thing) and they always came after the gap closer, so it seems they have their own combo string.

The flip slam looked like the heavy attack to me. I think we really will only get 2 combos and a couple standalone moves.

[(PSN)azul86sapphire]

Shave down the stances down to two combos, and melee will be obliterated.  It will be repeatitive and boring.  You don't make a system more fun by removing the fun elements and throwing in poor compensations (heavy attacks).

Think about games that do have strong melee capabilities.  I am thinking Kingdom Hearts.  The new Spiderman PS4.  Batman, Arkham.  The "simple" moves are beginner, and no one sticks with beginning moves only.  No, we unlock new skills and "gadgets" to create variation.  This is what makes melee in these other games fun.

Adding a "heavy attack" alone is not what creates variety.  It is a poor attempt to accomodate the variety of Stances and mobility.

[Slimspadey101]

2 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

Shave down the stances down to two combos, and melee will be obliterated...

Some stances in the game right now only have 2 combos! LOL

[Vyrielle]

So I know dual wielding is coming with melee 3.0.  But I'm kind of curious what weapons will be able to do this.  As stated previously, one handed melee weapons will get this treatment, but tonight I thought of a weird corner case: Nikanas.  Two of the stances of the nikana are technically one handed, Tranquil Cleave and Blind Justice, while Decisive Judgment is two handed.  How would this work?  Would a Nikana with Decisive Judgment just not get to hold a pistol like the other two stances?  Would Nikanas just not be included in dual wielding at all?

[(PSN)RenxHoshigaki]

1 hour ago, Vyrielle said:

So I know dual wielding is coming with melee 3.0.  But I'm kind of curious what weapons will be able to do this.  As stated previously, one handed melee weapons will get this treatment, but tonight I thought of a weird corner case: Nikanas.  Two of the stances of the nikana are technically one handed, Tranquil Cleave and Blind Justice, while Decisive Judgment is two handed.  How would this work?  Would a Nikana with Decisive Judgment just not get to hold a pistol like the other two stances?  Would Nikanas just not be included in dual wielding at all?

It's important to remember the context of these weapons. Nikana are separate from swords for a reason. They are by technicality two-handed weapons as the sheathe is part of the weapon as well. Warframe has styled these off of the Iaijutsu sword school so, dual-wielding with a firearm will not make sense with their current dynamic. 

[kevoisvevo]

Well if you guys are removing channeling, will there be heavy finishers to replace channeled finisher? Or maybe increase the damage of finishers since channeling won't benefit them anylonger.

[FreeWilliam]

13 hours ago, Slimspadey101 said:

Some stances in the game right now only have 2 combos! LOL

SOME have less combos than others, true.

I think the issue was that stances provide a ton of variety (Technically everything in Melee 3.0 that we've heard about could just be put in a subset of stances when you think about it) and those of us who melee a lot consider the different stances more crucial than our choice in weapon. 

I've been all for some of the proposed changes (removal of pause and hold timing combos for example), but not turning all the stances into generic clones of each other.  They're what add the spice to melee in this game and the idea of making them generic across weapon types sounds like it defeats one of the best things about Warframe melee.

[sasanao22]

1 hour ago, FreeWilliam said:

SOME have less combos than others, true.

I think the issue was that stances provide a ton of variety (Technically everything in Melee 3.0 that we've heard about could just be put in a subset of stances when you think about it) and those of us who melee a lot consider the different stances more crucial than our choice in weapon. 

I've been all for some of the proposed changes (removal of pause and hold timing combos for example), but not turning all the stances into generic clones of each other.  They're what add the spice to melee in this game and the idea of making them generic across weapon types sounds like it defeats one of the best things about Warframe melee.

now this one is right, a pause in combo kinda meh in a fast pace game like warframe so i hope DE can consider other button combo 

[(PSN)azul86sapphire]

16 hours ago, Slimspadey101 said:

Some stances in the game right now only have 2 combos! LOL

And how often are those weapons and stances used?  The only exceptions are probaby Lesion and Tonbo for their damage potential.  But I have dropped using both because it is boring.

There are a number of weapon varients that I abandoned because of stances.  I hated Single Sword stances until Swooping Falcon.  I trashed all my Machetes after ranking them until Cyclone Kraken came out.  Nearly did the same with my Silva and Aegis because I hated Eleventh Storm, but absolutely fell in love with it after I got Final Harbinger.

Stances can make or break weapon playstyles.  Cut out what people love about a system, and you effectively cut those players out.

[Slimspadey101]

DE isn't cutting stances. A user already explained this but the only confirmed change we have is that pause won't be a combo qualifier and that there will be, at least, a standing combo a forward movement combo and a gap closer from block, right? All of these were shown in a Devstream with multiple weapons and stances within same weapon types (heavy blade and dagger iirc).

6 hours ago, FreeWilliam said:

I think the issue was that stances provide a ton of variety (Technically everything in Melee 3.0 that we've heard about could just be put in a subset of stances when you think about it) and those of us who melee a lot consider the different stances more crucial than our choice in weapon. 

I've been all for some of the proposed changes (removal of pause and hold timing combos for example), but not turning all the stances into generic clones of each other.  They're what add the spice to melee in this game and the idea of making them generic across weapon types sounds like it defeats one of the best things about Warframe melee.

Stances looked to have retained their identity. By "generic clones.." I assume you are referring to the unified button action required to perform combos. To me this just means fluidity and I welcome that. Are you saying that the best thing about Warframe melee is that combos have a variety of button sequences?

It just seems like SOME people are raging against strawmen and I find that ridiculous and funny. I mean if you intentionally use every combo in a given stance, and like the needlessly complicated qualifiers then I guess you have something to complain about.

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, Slimspadey101 said:

DE isn't cutting stances. A user already explained this but the only confirmed change we have is that pause won't be a combo qualifier and that there will be, at least, a standing combo a forward movement combo and a gap closer from block, right? All of these were shown in a Devstream with multiple weapons and stances within same weapon types (heavy blade and dagger iirc).

Stances looked to have retained their identity. By "generic clones.." I assume you are referring to the unified button action required to perform combos. To me this just means fluidity and I welcome that. Are you saying that the best thing about Warframe melee is that combos have a variety of button sequences?

It just seems like SOME people are raging against strawmen and I find that ridiculous and funny. I mean if you intentionally use every combo in a given stance, and like the needlessly complicated qualifiers then I guess you have something to complain about.

A gap closer attack, not combo. So two combos. Which is what has been demonstrated so far in the Primetimes and Devstreams.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Urlan said:

A gap closer attack, not combo. So two combos. Which is what has been demonstrated so far in the Primetimes and Devstreams.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Although they didn't say this on the devstream (and, yeah, probably should have) they use some animations that didn't show up when they demo'd either combo string immediately after the gap closer.

So it seems that this is in fact it's own combo string. 

[Urlan]

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Although they didn't say this on the devstream (and, yeah, probably should have) they use some animations that didn't show up when they demo'd either combo string immediately after the gap closer.

So it seems that this is in fact it's own combo string. 

Yes, you feel that and I don't as its not what it looks like or what was said by DE. What was said, was standing still combo, forward combo, gap clearing attack. Rewatching the Vauban stream showed that pretty clearly with our last exchange.

[Loza03]

10 hours ago, Urlan said:

Yes, you feel that and I don't as its not what it looks like or what was said by DE. What was said, was standing still combo, forward combo, gap clearing attack. Rewatching the Vauban stream showed that pretty clearly with our last exchange.

If I may then, how else would these moves that don't show up in the still and forward combos be activated? These moves only showed up after the gap closer and didn't appear in either string. They're getting rid of pause combos and they showed off that heavy attacks use the old charge attack animations. So I can't really see how else these moves would be activated. The best showcase of that was the claws section - Rebb showcases the 'gap closer' on claws which has those, and then a few times there's this animation of these wide, diagonal strikes. When she then shows off the standing and movement combos, those diagonal strikes aren't in either of them.

On further watches, I've been kind of disappointed at that stream for being so unclear about which moves appeared in which combo string. 

[Luka-Song]

15 hours ago, Slimspadey101 said:

It just seems like SOME people are raging against strawmen and I find that ridiculous and funny. I mean if you intentionally use every combo in a given stance, and like the needlessly complicated qualifiers then I guess you have something to complain about.

There wouldn't be so many strawmen if DE just updated this bloody thread already. All we can do is speculate until we learn more about the system, which appearently will be on release.

Anyways, the complaint is that they're equaling out the stances on the lowest denominator, with only 2 combos and a standalone move, while currently some stances have up to 5 combos. Even if this does add fluidity, it'd make dedicated melee incredibly repetitive as you'd be spamming the same few moves over and over. Rather than cutting down on combos, they should make currently existing combos more accessible, and expand on the simpler stances who only have one or two combos.