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Melee: Present and Future goals!


[DE]Rebecca

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Le 29/09/2018 à 16:08, Drejzer a dit :

I meant it more like a passive ability akin to blocking in tekken, where you block if you aren't doing anything else.
I mean, why keep holding that block then release it when you slash things and then go back to holding it?
In my opinion frontal damage reduction from blocking should be a passive feature of unsheathed melee, active as long as there aren any other actions performed, and the current block should be like a "focused" state, or however you call it, working simmilarily to lock-on in DMC, meaning that it allows for performing specifc manouvres (like the gap closers(Stinger) and launchers(High Time) in DMC).

Blocking as a way to open manoeuvres could be fun but getting rid of the block ability doesn't bother me much. We don't use it much anyway and parrying lasers with a dagger doesn't make sense either. ^ ^

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I'm just going to drop my concerns and what I want out of Melee 3.0 here in a few bullet points:

  1. Dual Wielding 1 Handed Melee and 1 Handed Pistols needs to be fun. Make sure heavy attacks and combos can be done with Dual Wielding.
  2. Heavy/Special attacks for Life Strike. Life Strike benefits from this, as a harder hitting move will heal more in a single strike. If I wanna heal in many smaller hits, Healing Return is what I'd go with.
  3. Channeling mods not named Life Strike should be a "Devil/Void Trigger" mode mod. So things like Quickening, Enduring Strike, and even Focused Defense can go towards this mode. It makes sense with Focused Defense at least.
  4. Devil/Void Trigger needs to be a lot of fun. Don't just make it a stronger melee mode. A mode that only increases numbers is boring. Add gameplay mechanics to it. In fact, have it translate to more than just melee. Have it carry over to gunplay. Maybe later down the line we can have a new mechanic around gunplay that carries over to melee. This'd work wonders with the new faster weapon switching we'll be getting.
  5. Empowered Blades Aura should affect Heavy/Special attacks, and not incur the shield damage penalty. At present the Aura hurts your team and will hurt the team more if heavy attacks become vogue and your teammates not built for it.
  6. Naramon's Power Spike needs to prevent the Combo Counter from depleting on Heavy Attacks. It just preserving combo is almost moot when Combo is mostly centered around heavy attacks. Naramon not having that would be a buzz kill. And not the mod Buzz Kill.
  7. Affinity Spike needs to go. 45% extra affinity on melee is pointless once you fully level all melee weapons. Have it do something with the new Void Trigger.
  8. Zenurik's Inner Might can also work with Void Trigger, since Channeling is disappearing.

My biggest concern is that Melee 3.0 will just be a numbers tweak and a mechanical change to make it less of a button mash, without actually doing anything new or fun. So we'd just end up with something that's just as fun or even less fun than what we have now. I don't just want better numbers on the screen, because that just means the higher level enemies will die the same way and just as fast as the lower level ones.

Stuff that pushes gameplay to the next level of complexity, something that'd demand more interesting content and challenges to face when mastered and minmaxed. I know, we don't even have an 'endgame' yet and here this post suggesting we take gameplay to the next level. I've given up on waiting for endgame to come before wondering how far we can push things.

Something that doesn't get min-maxed within the hour of release followed by months of grind for something we'd already know how it's gonna work. Minmaxing feels hallow and going through the motions when it's just more of the same thing.

I want to learn new things, again. Please, I loved that feeling when I first started out warframe and had no idea what I was doing. This post turned out to be more than I thought it was gonna be.

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As of the last dev stream I have some questions on how the melee rework is going since it seems the last few have really only given us the bare minimum amount of information and right now we just recently had a post about the login rework, how soon will it be till we get a new post covering the planed changes for the melee system.

When can we expect to see an update on the progress and stats we will have on our melee in melee 3.0? how will all the channeling mods be reworked as far as what they do? in addition what will happen to rivens that have the stats for negative combo duration or the ones that boost channeling damage? and as far as the charge attacks go that operate on weapons like the gunblades and the glaives will they still opperate on the same methods as they do now? not asking for any king of actuall release date just a really rough estimate but will melee 3.0 be dropping with Fortuna or will it be dropped later on in Fortuna after the inital release and fine tuning process of this next big expansion we will have due to the large amount of content?

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i like what Azimbee said above, thats exactly what im hoping to see, void trigger should affect gunplay aswell as melee, guns could even have special effects like say the pyrana prime could gain its special during the void trigger the balistica prime could gain the ability to turn any kills into ghosts that last untill VT runs out, ect.

also i want to see shield weapons like Ack&Brunt, Sigma be able to be used with a pistol or one handed primary in the other hand, like the grineer do with their shield & pistol

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Ok....Let me summarise what i already saw :

 

1) We have 3 melee buttons :  Attack/Charged attack (X / Hold X ) ;   Channeling ( Hold LT)  and   Blocking ( Hold RT )

2) Channeling is going to be removed.  That leaves (LT) button free.

3) Charged attacks getting rework....But they will not participate in Combos. They are just a separate attack that uses up your "Hit counter". 

4) We getting "air combos"....but they looked extreemely wonky and pointless.  Seems like DE do not understand why we want "air combos".  These are needed to kill Synovia, Lephantis and Hek with Melee.    Not to bring down small corpus drones.

5) In addition to Vertical slam, we also get new Directional slam.  Imo a pointless feature. As you already can bulletjump from midair and do a normal slam as you fly above the target.  Same results. 

 

So, New controls will most likely be like this :

(X) - Attack ,   (X) + (directional input) = various combos ?    (Hold X) = ?  No idea what will that do, maybe a certain combo starter or such.

( Hold RT) - Blocking.    (RT) + (X) = "gap closer" dash attack.

(LT) -  Charged attack. Uses combo counter.   Maybe "finishers" will also be on this button.

In midair   (X) = Air combo  ;  (X) + (look down) = Slam  ;  (LT) = Directional slam.

 

 

There are lots of unused (?) opportunities, like :

(LT) + (X) + (LT) ;  (X) + (LT) + (LT)  and such "3 hitters" .

(LT) + Directional input  = various Heavy strikes. 

(RT) + (LT) =  Can be anything. I would make it a Parry if you press (LT) just as enemy strikes your Block and Finisher if you press these near downed enemy.

And so on. 

 

 

I just hope that "Directional input" will not include  Left and Right , and that Melee will be Viable VS bosses and minibosses.  Coz now its only good for horde slashing.  Single target combat is very poor and lacks mechanics.  Tyl Regor and Umbra fights are sht if you go Melee.

 

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A couple of questions!

  • Will we be able to melee Eidolons with the new aerial combos? (please yes!)
  • Will we be seeing variety when it comes to how the heavy attacks use the combo counter? (more range, procs, speed increases, AOE pushes and pulls, weapon specific specials, stance specific specials, etc)
  • Will there be stances that add improved channeling-like features (energy for more awesomeness)
  • Will we be seeing variety when it comes to highly mobile low-momentum stances (like Clashing Forest and Final Harbinger are currently) vs. less mobile ones that provide momentum?  
  • Are we going to be stuck with one input scheme or will there be some stances that are more creative (using button combos, 'beast mode' auttoattack, etc.)
  • Could we get stances that highlight 'heavy' targets or mark them on radar so we can be more effective in melee mode?
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I have an idea.
After the melee revision, make a mode in the conclave.
Tenno will fight each other only with melee weapons.
I think many will like it, especially if there are worthy rewards.
PVP in the darksouls, not annoying. Why not make the same in warframe?

 

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22 minutes ago, NoirTree said:

I have an idea.
After the melee revision, make a mode in the conclave.
Tenno will fight each other only with melee weapons.
I think many will like it, especially if there are worthy rewards.
PVP in the darksouls, not annoying. Why not make the same in warframe?

 

The worthy rewards part would be nice. I'd like to see some more conclave skins. They look amazing after all.

As for a melee-only mode, yeah, that'd be nice. Melee's underused in conclave because... well, guns. An 'ol Teshin's been proven to like swords.

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3 hours ago, NoirTree said:

But for more balance, it would be good to return stamina for parkour. And only in the conclave. Fighting against
players who use macros is extremely annoying. Even if it is only melee.

I can certainly agree with the annoyance against Macros in conclave though DE has not been very clear on their stance about that past 'use at your own risk' so I can't really hold it against those players - much as I used to feel like doing just that - when running conclave a bunch in the past. Something to put a stop to the constant bullet jump spam would be nice, but I worry about Conclave missing its mark if it introduces too many Conclave only mechanics as it is in universe supposed to prepare us for enemies in the real game world and not just for conclave.

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2 hours ago, Doomsknight said:

 Pls DE give us Melee 3.0 before Fortuna comes out !

It doesn't help to ask DE to rush, if it's not ready.

"I wouldn't like to have my pizza half raw."

Let's just give them time to finish it, and we will probably be saved from the worst bugs.

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Some most recent things related to melee, that popped after laterst update - that should be talked about:

 

Quoting myself, and my opinion on those:
 

Quote

Noticed some of the oddities myself. When you play melee as much as I do, you just know when something you've played for 2 & half years, feels weird and wonky. Been having exactly this feeling - and can confirm some of the observations in this topic (OP's post). This better not be a sign of what's coming with melee 3.0. While these changes are not entirely 'gamebreaking', they are a nuisance. So far, it truly looks that melee rework = nerf of melee. Not a fan. Hopefully we'll get relevant informations about this, so people who love and enjoy melee can actually work with something else than horrid assumptions and horror stories.

 

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If we lose the combo multiplyer AND the easy combos melee 3.0 will be a huge nerf. No amount of fancy animation will save that.

First DE allowed maiming strike to ruin melee. Most players cant build a melee char without spin to win because they never needed to learn how to make it properly. Secondly DE throws out of the window their best working system.

Please learn from your past mistakes. Melee is great atm. With minor modifications it would be more accessible to more players. Kill/delete/burn maiming strike and its riven counterpart and replace the "hold" and "pause" combos. Thats all. Nothing mire needed.

We understand you have placed a lot of work (=money) into developing melee 3.0. Introduce it to conclave and then it wont go to waste. At the end we will tell you in the forums how great this decision is and how much more plat we will buy because not ruining the game. You can keep the investors happy and the players will be happy = clear win win situation.

On the other hand if you do it intentionally to keep us away from higjer lvl content by removing the ability to have an effective melee then please dont do it. Really. Please dont do it.

 

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1 hour ago, Csaszar said:

If we lose the combo multiplyer AND the easy combos melee 3.0 will be a huge nerf. No amount of fancy animation will save that.

First DE allowed maiming strike to ruin melee. Most players cant build a melee char without spin to win because they never needed to learn how to make it properly. Secondly DE throws out of the window their best working system.

Please learn from your past mistakes. Melee is great atm. With minor modifications it would be more accessible to more players. Kill/delete/burn maiming strike and its riven counterpart and replace the "hold" and "pause" combos. Thats all. Nothing mire needed.

We understand you have placed a lot of work (=money) into developing melee 3.0. Introduce it to conclave and then it wont go to waste. At the end we will tell you in the forums how great this decision is and how much more plat we will buy because not ruining the game. You can keep the investors happy and the players will be happy = clear win win situation.

On the other hand if you do it intentionally to keep us away from higjer lvl content by removing the ability to have an effective melee then please dont do it. Really. Please dont do it.

 

You say it like they wouldn't be adding in anything to replace the combo multiplier. They've delayed specifically because they're doing just that. It seems that the 'devil trigger' mode and greatly increased damage will replace the combo multiplier.

For example, in the demo in devstream 114, I went through and saw that the Kronen did 377 damage to a corrupted ancient. These weapons were being tested unmodded due to how the dev build commands work, so whilst I don't know the exact damage it's doing (Slash deals more damage to fossilised flesh type, and I'm not good enough at maths to deal with that), we do know that it has about 5X to 5.5X the base damage it did before. And I doubt they're going to just axe blood rush, body count, and so forth completely, so they may well take on new properties. This dev workshop isn't the final build, a lot of stuff has changed.

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The question mark on the "Devil Trigger" reiteration of Channeling is just how responsive it will and if it can fill in what channeling does right now, which is reflex tanking with Life Strike.

 

4 hours ago, Csaszar said:

If we lose the combo multiplyer AND the easy combos melee 3.0 will be a huge nerf. No amount of fancy animation will save that.

First DE allowed maiming strike to ruin melee. Most players cant build a melee char without spin to win because they never needed to learn how to make it properly. Secondly DE throws out of the window their best working system.

Please learn from your past mistakes. Melee is great atm. With minor modifications it would be more accessible to more players. Kill/delete/burn maiming strike and its riven counterpart and replace the "hold" and "pause" combos. Thats all. Nothing mire needed.

We understand you have placed a lot of work (=money) into developing melee 3.0. Introduce it to conclave and then it wont go to waste. At the end we will tell you in the forums how great this decision is and how much more plat we will buy because not ruining the game. You can keep the investors happy and the players will be happy = clear win win situation.

On the other hand if you do it intentionally to keep us away from higjer lvl content by removing the ability to have an effective melee then please dont do it. Really. Please dont do it.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement. Maiming Strike and its riven counterpart modifier should just be cut without mercy, not tip-toed around. Though I do think there are some improvements that could be done for my dear staple melee. Assuming that the current movement lockdown is unintentional (if it is intentional, please please please reconsider melee needs to move around as fast as it can), we can get to actual things I could see improved on:

If there's one thing that I think should be changed, it'd rather be working combos to use two buttons (perhaps even three!) for a straight-forward brawler style of combos à la Yakuza or NieR: Automata for example. Since Warframe strike speed tends to be so fast (both in swinging like the Tasmanian Devil, and in how fast you must kill but bullets too slow) and the camera is behind the shoulder, having those two buttons contain two combo loops to switch between would good for mixing up your attacks rather than dial-up combos would be ideal.

Alternatively you could get the almost the same effect by either reworking combos to allow custom inputs, or have stances only use the three inputs that are functional in the context of Warframe's speed: Hold nothing, hold RMB, or hold Forward; with hold RMB taking priority over Forward. Rework of weapons and stances would be ideal too, since many stances are simply useless and many weapon categories have qualities that make them subpar like Fists having such a massive lack of range (one way could be making +range mods either give a flat increase or percentile increase based on a minimum increase).

The point in both is really to just allow mixing up combos based on functionality in a rapid, reflexive manner. Due to the need for speed, right now the melee ideal is to keep your combo to your "canned" choice (usually RMB hold), and focus instead of maneuvering and targeting quickly. One thing that should be considered in this that it isn't a bad thing to have combos and moves that can be used just for fun or indulgence because it's flashy and cool and doesn't hurt your play. Having the combo counter be turned into a super bar is a nice idea in that sense, if you don't really have to sacrifice anything for a move that you can use purely for the fun of it.

 

Also more weapons should bisect enemies, the gibs everywhere are one of the great joys of melee after all.

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6 hours ago, Csaszar said:

Melee is great atm. With minor modifications it would be more accessible to more players. Kill/delete/burn maiming strike and its riven counterpart and replace the "hold" and "pause" combos. Thats all. Nothing mire needed.

This is a really good point.  Melee was already in a really good place if you ignored maiming strike (they could also have put a timer on it, that would've solved the same set of issues.IMHO) and I'm honestly not sure how it's been treated like a sacred cow but channeling (which just needed some boosts to mods) is getting deleted completely.  

Heck, they could 'stealth nerf' maiming strike right now and the only people who would complain are the people who are have been leaning on it to the expense of everything else. 

I'm also kind of surprised we're not hearing more about using stances to ease this transition. It was ALWAYS an option to have most of melee 3.0 exist inside a subset of stances (or have channeling stances, mobility focused stances, even dual wielding stances) and when you get down to it unless you're just quick attacking stances ARE melee.

I don't want to see all the stances end up basically the same, I want a lot of variety in them...a good stance is like a good frame. DE should lean into that more.

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7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You say it like they wouldn't be adding in anything to replace the combo multiplier. They've delayed specifically because they're doing just that. It seems that the 'devil trigger' mode and greatly increased damage will replace the combo multiplier.

For example, in the demo in devstream 114, I went through and saw that the Kronen did 377 damage to a corrupted ancient. These weapons were being tested unmodded due to how the dev build commands work, so whilst I don't know the exact damage it's doing (Slash deals more damage to fossilised flesh type, and I'm not good enough at maths to deal with that), we do know that it has about 5X to 5.5X the base damage it did before. And I doubt they're going to just axe blood rush, body count, and so forth completely, so they may well take on new properties. This dev workshop isn't the final build, a lot of stuff has changed.

Melee is quite a conex system right now. A lot of factors decide how effective is. The current xombo system with channeling with the proper arcanes (easy to get ones) with the combo counter with player knowledge together make it shine. Its comex and it has answers for all the important questions includind sustained survivability.

See, i am not worried with the 10 min survivals - melee 3.0 will be designed for that.

I also fear the damned uniformity theese changes will bring. Flashy lacluster and underpowered.

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11 minutes ago, Csaszar said:

Melee is quite a conex system right now. A lot of factors decide how effective is. The current xombo system with channeling with the proper arcanes (easy to get ones) with the combo counter with player knowledge together make it shine. Its comex and it has answers for all the important questions includind sustained survivability.

See, i am not worried with the 10 min survivals - melee 3.0 will be designed for that.

I also fear the damned uniformity theese changes will bring. Flashy lacluster and underpowered.

Uniformity is one thing that I'm worried about, and a problem honestly think Melee suffers from currently anyway, which doesn't help.

Yeah, sure, each weapon and stances has different combos, but it's not really enough since a lot of them feel pretty similar. I mean... does using a pair of twin Krohkur really feel all that different to a Nikana? Or the Lesion from the Broken Scepter? Different damage values, different appearances, but there's nothing special discriminating them. If I'm honest, that's what I personally am hoping the 'Devil trigger' thing's for. Giving weapon classes something special all their own.

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Right now with a heavy zaw tempo royale exodia hunt combo counter and channeling i can do 1.5 hour MOT survival with the best damage and most kill. The combo counter is at 4x damage in a few mins. Thats with a melee Nekros. With Inaros or chroma i can do a lot more. Thats something that is achievable to anyone interested right now. The above setup has a clearing ability that melee 3.0 will not can not match or provide. We are all losing to this systematic nerf thats coming for melee.

Do math and use logic. There is no way 3.0 could even come close to the current melee efficiency when the best parts are taken out.

Raising base stats wont help because it wont be enough and the boost wont be too much. It cant be big enough because DE cant and wont make such a huge gap between melee and primary and secondary weapon stats.

Other thing is that killing the combo counter is not only taking away the 3-4.5x damage multiplyer (theese are easy to achive) but all the other bonuses they are coming from it (foe example the huge crit or status chance). On the top of that we loose channeling what is the best and biggest sustain and damage giver.

With the info we have now Melee 3.0 CANT COMPETE WITH THAT. 

Everyone will loose.

Ah the quick attack casual 10 min survival and leave at the first opportunity type wont. They lose already leaving the game best moments out.

DE should consider what will they do to the game if they will turn game design to support only theese type of playing.

 

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17 minutes ago, Csaszar said:

Right now with a heavy zaw tempo royale exodia hunt combo counter and channeling i can do 1.5 hour MOT survival with the best damage and most kill. The combo counter is at 4x damage in a few mins. Thats with a melee Nekros. With Inaros or chroma i can do a lot more. Thats something that is achievable to anyone interested right now. The above setup has a clearing ability that melee 3.0 will not can not match or provide. We are all losing to this systematic nerf thats coming for melee.

Do math and use logic. There is no way 3.0 could even come close to the current melee efficiency when the best parts are taken out.

Raising base stats wont help because it wont be enough and the boost wont be too much. It cant be big enough because DE cant and wont make such a huge gap between melee and primary and secondary weapon stats.

Other thing is that killing the combo counter is not only taking away the 3-4.5x damage multiplyer (theese are easy to achive) but all the other bonuses they are coming from it (foe example the huge crit or status chance). On the top of that we loose channeling what is the best and biggest sustain and damage giver.

With the info we have now Melee 3.0 CANT COMPETE WITH THAT. 

Everyone will loose.

Ah the quick attack casual 10 min survival and leave at the first opportunity type wont. They lose already leaving the game best moments out.

DE should consider what will they do to the game if they will turn game design to support only theese type of playing.

 

Pretty much sums up what I kept saying as well somewhere in this very own thread - I have the very same fears too. I just hope, that we are very wrong about this & it's just our fears speaking. And the only thing that can dissipate assumptions and fears, is devs coming and actually providing facts. It'd prevent a lot of panic-posting from knowledgeable and often passionate melee-users. Because yes, people who melee majority of their time in Warframe can make extrapolation based on what has been said already: And not only it seems less fun, but also less effective. Therefore, for people like me, it's hard to see any improvement, aside of melee looking pretty. But looking pretty does not equal better or more fun.

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