Melee: Present and Future goals!

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

But then why bother doing that? If the whole point is that surviving past X point is not a part of the game design, why bother trying to balance anything once that point is reached? If the Endless Endgame isn't "endorsed by DE" why bother making gameplay changes that add to the challenge of participating in it? Why not just focus on making engaging content up to level 100 and then not caring about players who get beyond that?

I 100% agree that the focus should be on content that is max level (in this case 100, though that can be changed) and below. However, endless modes themselves do exist and are legitimate content. The only problem is that the distinction between "officially balanced" and "all bets are off; you're on your own" is not clearly maintained. Endless modes would be absolutely no fun if they became simply impossible as soon as they exceeded maximum level, but balance should never be changed for the express purpose of extending how long players can push past the limit.

For example, Level 0-100 DE guarantees you have a fair shot at winning. Level 100-150 the difficulty starts to ramp-up past what players can handle very quickly. Level 150+ become exceedingly difficult and pushing further comes down to bragging rights... if it's possible at all.

If there's no 100-150 cushion, it'd be better to just have the mission end automatically once 100 is exceeded.

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

If we're stepping back to that degree on Warframe balance, the real problem isn't the ability of players to survive to level 900 enemies with ease on certain endless missions by exploiting math quirks and building super-focused builds with ridiculous mods, it's the fact that most of what players are actually DOING when they play Warframe is running missions well below that point over and over to collect stuff. The fact that the daily gameplay loop for the average endgame player is "Speedrun Sortie for Riven > Cheese unveil > Speedrun Kuva Flood for Rerolls > Flip Riven for Plat" is the real brokenness. That players can survive for 4 hours in T4 survival instead of only 1 hour isn't what's broken, about anything in Warframe. It's that the builds that scale to that point are also builds that make microwaved paste of any content BALANCED for "challenge".

Yes, I agree with this. However what I'm saying is that the 4-hour endurance runs are regularly used to justify the existence of builds that make microwaved paste out of balanced content. If you remove the players' ability to scale damage, that's the first step toward allowing a reasonable balance to be achieved.

The biggest issue with challenge is actually energy economy, or rather the effective lack thereof. The spam needs to stop so that enemies have the opportunity to fight back fairly.

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

Melee 3.0, from what they've shown, seems to be more about making melee more engaging when faced with enemies that pose an actual challenge to kill, when the real problem with Warframe is (new players excluded) until you've scaled past the point of ridiculousness on endless missions, nothing is challenging to kill. Fixing Maiming Strike/S2W isn't going to fix that, it's just going to make melee something you don't use in your daily Sortie Speedrun. Yes, it would make melee more enjoyable for players who are either new or intentionally play the game handicapped because they find the challenge more engaging, but when it comes time to load out for whatever constitutes your current endless, mindless grind, nobody is going to pick something that doesn't kill as much as possible as fast as possible while allowing them to get from start to extraction in a minimum amount of time. Fixing the way level 800 enemies scale relative to Warframe powers or melee weapons or anything else won't have an appreciable impact on the daily level 80 slaughterhouse.

I agree, to an extent. Melee 3.0 is largely about streamlining the combo inputs into a more usable state (though I believe the W+E input to be a bad idea that will prevent easy use of the standard E input), and making melee less intrusive to use. If the combo meter is treated as disposable and ramps up more quickly, it is easier to switch between melee and guns without any real penalty to melee effectiveness.

Most people are concerned about the DPS loss from the changes to the combo meter, but my point is that the meter scaling should be completely unnecessary. Just give melee adequate damage from the beginning, like guns have. Ideally, the next step would be to balance level 80 such that it isn't a simple slaughterhouse.

I would go as far as to argue that balancing for endless runs (through scaling) is precisely what has allowed us to turn normal content into microwaved paste.

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

I'm not saying there aren't problems with the way enemy scaling is implemented, and I'm not saying the divergence of stat scaling in particular isn't responsible for centralizing the meta around corrosive/crit/slash the way it has, but I feel like we're preoccupied with poor balance in content meant to be impossible while turning a blind eye to equally poor balance in content just meant to be hard. So the real question is, what is DE's concern with "Spin 2 Win"? Is it that it can be abused against ultra-high level content to pass what should be impassable, or that it can be by players in a grind-hurry to melt content meant to sustain long-term interest in the game?

I agree with you 100% here. I just see cutting off easy access to the ultra-high level content by removing scaling effects as an important first step. Spin 2 Win can be fixed by simply moving the bonus to apply only on heavy attacks. Dealing massive damage isn't actually a problem by itself; dealing massive damage on spammable attacks is when it becomes problematic (sort of like how a rifle that deals 1,000,000,000 damage per shot would have limited use against the Grineer if it has 1 shot per reload and the reload takes 10 seconds).

38 minutes ago, AresTheLegendary said:

Between the 3 of us, I can tell we are after the same goal. Me and Rhythm want to make us more powerful, and yet with a tweak in balance, where as Ursus is of the opinion we turn DOWN our capabilities in an effort to balance, for concern of making us too powerful for endless.

I agree, though allow me to specify that I only want to limit our capabilities to take endless content out of the equation. In my eyes, endless content is meaningless when players can ignore the scaling. I don't think running a 4 hour survival is all that impressive when you only managed it by breaking the game mechanics (e.g., shutting down enemy AI with CC and stacking damage multipliers with damage that ignores enemy defenses).

Endurance runs can only be impressive and meaningful (again, IMO) when players have limited toolsets that put the enemy at an eventual advantage.

38 minutes ago, AresTheLegendary said:

Now, where I think we can agree here, is, according to lore, we are SUPPOSED to be that much more powerful than our enemies. If we were to somehow incorporate the scaling of melee CC into the rest of our dps, and perhaps maybe lower the strength of the buff itself as it approaches infinity (omg calculus has just found its usefulness outside of school), we would be able to at least feign the display of more power by using all of our means to deal damage in fluidity, without breaking the mechanics of endless. But as Ursus mentioned earlier, an established peak of player damage output would need to be established first. Then you can apply caps and nerfs as necessary. Or, increase the scaling multiplier of enemies to correspond. In my head, if this were done properly, there would/should be no possible way for S2W to outdmg someone whos using all of their wpns, therefore, we'd be able to keep that mechanic (this is the 'ability' i was referring to), as it is STILL a decent means of survival.

This I can agree with, and for this reason I would actually support the more radical rework of removing enemy levels altogether and implementing difficulty through a combination of variants, numbers, and objectives. IMO allowing enemies to out-scale players in terms of health/damage is immersion-breaking.

For example, a lowly Butcher is always a lowly Butcher... but a Drekar Butcher or Kuva Butcher would be noticeably more powerful. (e.g., Standard > Frontier/Arid > Tusk > Drekar > Nightwatch > Kuva). Instead of having a Survival mission continually scale the levels of the extant enemies, it might start skewing spawn ratios away from Butchers and toward Bombards... in addition to Life Support starting to deplete faster over time.

Thus players must choose to extract when Life Support becomes unsustainable rather than when enemies themselves become unbeatable.

In order to help missions maintain their challenge as a player progresses, reaching specific junction milestones should unlock new node difficulties. For example, when first navigating the solar map players have access to "Normal," where the default enemies appear. However, revisiting Mars on "Hard" might replace the Arid Grineer with Nightwatch variants, or Kuva variants on "Very Hard."

38 minutes ago, AresTheLegendary said:

Again, as Im typing this, I feel like there would be no other way than to increase the scaling multiplier of enemies, to match the increased dmg capabilities of players in this way. It would be difficult to add CC buff to the rest of player dps without increasing avg player dps at the same time. However, that wuold be an easy fix as well. At the end of all this, we want the difficulty of endless to remain the same, but without over-commitment to melee, but have the REST of our dps, scale WITH it, if for no other reason than fun-factor and diversity.

As an alternative to the above, your suggestion here could also work. For example, the player arsenal might be balanced around dealing enough damage up to mid-level enemies on their own (preserving some measure of challenge at low-mid levels) with the synergy-based scaling mechanics being what allow them to up their game for high-level enemies. This would also help contribute to higher levels requiring more skill development from players rather than depending strictly on accumulated upgrades.

[AresTheLegendary]

3 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

As an alternative to the above, your suggestion here could also work. For example, the player arsenal might be balanced around dealing enough damage up to mid-level enemies on their own (preserving some measure of challenge at low-mid levels) with the synergy-based scaling mechanics being what allow them to up their game for high-level enemies. This would also help contribute to higher levels requiring more skill development from players rather than depending strictly on accumulated upgrades.

Bullseye. That is the idea: the synergy based scaling mechanics is THE KEY to high-level content. I bet if some thought went into this it would work out nicely, while completely enhancing the way we play altogether.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, AresTheLegendary said:

Bullseye. That is the idea: the synergy based scaling mechanics is THE KEY to high-level content. I bet if some thought went into this it would work out nicely, while completely enhancing the way we play altogether.

I could certainly get behind this, though I'm still personally leaning towards a more "unleveled" experience.

My dream for Warframe would be having the enemy factions polished and diversified to provide a combination of horde-annihilating satsifaction and actual combat engagement by implementing enemy classes.

For example:

• Butchers, Lancers, Troopers, etc. would fit into a "trash mob" class, with players being able to slaughter them en-masse and shrug off most attacks with impunity.
• "Champion" variants would fit into an "elite" class, and require players to put more effort into bringing them down. A "Champion Butcher" might have an Atterax or Sydon instead of Dual Cleavers, and block player attacks by default. Players might then need to block/dodge its telegraphed attacks in order to find attack openings.
• Special units like Manics, Prosecutors, etc. would fit into a "miniboss" class requiring players to field more advanced counterplay like hitting weakpoints or exploiting environmental conditions to stun them before dealing damage.

Following this class system, players would use trash mobs to combat attrition (e.g., recover health, energy, ammunition, etc.) while fighting more advanced enemies (which would drop better loot). The idea here is that it preserves the power fantasy of slaughtering hapless mooks while simultaneously offering more complex and challenging content to keep players engaged.

Hm... this could even fit nicely into your proposal of "scaling as progression" where players could use trash mobs to build up multipliers for tackling the stronger enemies!

[AresTheLegendary]

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

• Butchers, Lancers, Troopers, etc. would fit into a "trash mob" class, with players being able to slaughter them en-masse and shrug off most attacks with impunity.
• "Champion" variants would fit into an "elite" class, and require players to put more effort into bringing them down. A "Champion Butcher" might have an Atterax or Sydon instead of Dual Cleavers, and block player attacks by default. Players might then need to block/dodge its telegraphed attacks in order to find attack openings.
• Special units like Manics, Prosecutors, etc. would fit into a "miniboss" class requiring players to field more advanced counterplay like hitting weakpoints or exploiting environmental conditions to stun them before dealing damage.

Following this class system, players would use trash mobs to combat attrition (e.g., recover health, energy, ammunition, etc.) while fighting more advanced enemies (which would drop better loot). The idea here is that it preserves the power fantasy of slaughtering hapless mooks while simultaneously offering more complex and challenging content to keep players engaged.

Hm... this could even fit nicely into your proposal of "scaling as progression" where players could use trash mobs to build up multipliers for tackling the stronger enemies!

 

I like your class system idea, i think it's a necessary addition to gameplay right about now. We definitely need more -reasons- to be switching types of DPS constantly to warrant it's implementation. Some anti-warframe ish like having some unique high-level mini-boss type mobs (like a bursa, but not necessarily A bursa) able to see invis, or disable corpus-type wpns, a shockwave that reduces all warframe damage in an area, all kinds of annoying things you could do with that idea,

 

With that, would bring mods that would make that offensive synergy click more efficiently (faster switching, buff for using diff type of dps in succession), or buffs for using repeated use of diff types of heal skills or support skills if that wouldnt already be implemented in the main system, im sure DE and the rest of the community could think up something creative where that's concerned, were they to consider this approach.

Also, we DEFINITELY need the ability for our operators to RETURN to our frames, when leaving transference, without having to die. That right away adds a new dimension of gameplay, and infact should be the initial ability of transference in the first place, with the mechanic we have now (calling our frame to our operators location) as the secondary/advanced function.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 minutes ago, AresTheLegendary said:

I like your class system idea, i think it's a necessary addition to gameplay right about now. We definitely need more -reasons- to be switching types of DPS constantly to warrant it's implementation. Some anti-warframe ish like having some unique high-level mini-boss type mobs (like a bursa, but not necessarily A bursa) able to see invis, or disable corpus-type wpns, a shockwave that reduces all warframe damage in an area, all kinds of annoying things you could do with that idea,

Indeed. In my mind's eye, Sentients should enforce varied loadouts used in a complementary fashion. For example, as a Sentient gains resistance to Slash it becomes vulnerable to Puncture, then vulnerable to Impact as it starts to resist Puncture (forcing players to swap weapons dynamically). Players could also implement this type of combination play by stripping armor with one weapon and obliterating health with another.

2 minutes ago, AresTheLegendary said:

With that, would bring mods that would make that offensive synergy click more efficiently (faster switching, buff for using diff type of dps in succession), or buffs for using repeated use of diff types of heal skills or support skills if that wouldnt already be implemented in the main system, im sure DE and the rest of the community could think up something creative where that's concerned, were they to consider this approach.

+1

2 minutes ago, AresTheLegendary said:

Also, we DEFINITELY need the ability for our operators to RETURN to our frames, when leaving transference, without having to die. That right away adds a new dimension of gameplay, and infact should be the initial ability of transference in the first place, with the mechanic we have now (calling our frame to our operators location) as the secondary/advanced function.

Not sure I quite understand what you mean here. Would you be planning to use this mechanic to flank a singular enemy?

[Mach25]

Good stuff, gentlemen. I enjoy hearing your points, counterpoints and distilling the issues facing the game and providing meaningful proposed solutions. I must say, perhaps an additional aspect is that the game's balancing for enemies is set at too low of a level for the current state of the game?

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The biggest issue with challenge is actually energy economy, or rather the effective lack thereof. The spam needs to stop so that enemies have the opportunity to fight back fairly.

This is the crux of the issue - energy economy, this is what's throwing balance way off, or is at least a hugely significant part of it. Take away the obscene energy resources and the like and really make players earn their bread, then we'll see how good they really are. I guarantee those 4 hour endurance runs will evaporate into thin air.

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I agree, though allow me to specify that I only want to limit our capabilities to take endless content out of the equation. In my eyes, endless content is meaningless when players can ignore the scaling. I don't think running a 4 hour survival is all that impressive when you only managed it by breaking the game mechanics (e.g., shutting down enemy AI with CC and stacking damage multipliers with damage that ignores enemy defenses).

I have to wonder, is this what is meant by frames supposing to be super-powerful tools? Is this intended by the developers to reach their vision of how warframes are supposed to fight and win against all odds - powers that lock down and annihilate enemy forces, or is this a fluke? We need clarity from the developers about how exactly things are supposed to work in their universe. I was under the impression suit powers were supposed to give you the edge against the adversary with your skill with gun, blade and mobility as the main thrust of your attack, as the game states, "Warriors of blade and gun" since the Orokin had to revert to more earlier forms of damage against the Sentients.

 

17 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Indeed. In my mind's eye, Sentients should enforce varied loadouts used in a complementary fashion. For example, as a Sentient gains resistance to Slash it becomes vulnerable to Puncture, then vulnerable to Impact as it starts to resist Puncture (forcing players to swap weapons dynamically). Players could also implement this type of combination play by stripping armor with one weapon and obliterating health with another.

That seems to be such a basic design idea, I almost thought that was already implemented, like trying to make a strawberry shortcake using strawberries and flour.

Anyway, don't mean to derail the conversation here, please do continue.

[RhythmScript]

Warframe is many genres of game in one; it is a shooter, it is (theoretically) a melee action game, it is a speedy platformer, it is a looter RPG.

Me, I came to Warframe because it was the closest thing to Vanquish since Vanquish, and it had “actual” melee combat to boot. I have more hours logged in Transformers Devastation than Warframe. I like speeding around shooting things and using melee combos and dodge rolls and stuff. I like soloing Void Exterminates just for the exploration and hoping to find the obstacle course. If I had a menu option to disable waypoints (like the Doom reboot) I’d never turn them on except when grinding alerts.

But I hate RPGs. That’s me personally, but it’s NOT Warframe. People who like RPGs don’t enjoy having to run and aim and jump and combo; they like picking through gear to find unique loadout synergies and developing builds that obliterate the challenge that once stopped them. That IS the gameplay to them, that’s the fun. It’s easy for those of us who are primarily into Warframe as an action game to forget the people who would be bored to the point of quitting by the game if all of the mod stuff was rebalanced to “fix” trick builds.

I think it’s wrong to think of stuff like S2W as an “exploit”; there are a lot of players for whom discovering and experimenting with unexpected mod/ability synergies is literally the whole point of Warframe, its entire appeal. And for them especially, the “endlessly scaled endgame” is especially fun, because it means there never comes a point (theoretically) where their ability to develop synergies has reached the apex of its usefulness. Is it a good idea to treat them as a disposable/unwanted part of the playerbase? Or is it a better idea to approach things like melee combos (or headshots, aerial kills, other “stylish” high speed weapon combat) with an eye to making them ALSO a gateway to endless scalability, to help remove that disconnect between “playing off reflexes” and “playing off planning”?

I don’t know. I know if I could get away with not stacking builds with damage buffs just to have a shot at survival, I’d probably only use mods that had unique playstyle attributes and treat “higher level” content as simply more challenging content, because again I hate RPGs. But Warframe balanced to my tastes would be no longer Warframe 

[DiabolusUrsus]

47 minutes ago, RhythmScript said:

Warframe is many genres of game in one; it is a shooter, it is (theoretically) a melee action game, it is a speedy platformer, it is a looter RPG.

Me, I came to Warframe because it was the closest thing to Vanquish since Vanquish, and it had “actual” melee combat to boot. I have more hours logged in Transformers Devastation than Warframe. I like speeding around shooting things and using melee combos and dodge rolls and stuff. I like soloing Void Exterminates just for the exploration and hoping to find the obstacle course. If I had a menu option to disable waypoints (like the Doom reboot) I’d never turn them on except when grinding alerts.

But I hate RPGs. That’s me personally, but it’s NOT Warframe. People who like RPGs don’t enjoy having to run and aim and jump and combo; they like picking through gear to find unique loadout synergies and developing builds that obliterate the challenge that once stopped them. That IS the gameplay to them, that’s the fun. It’s easy for those of us who are primarily into Warframe as an action game to forget the people who would be bored to the point of quitting by the game if all of the mod stuff was rebalanced to “fix” trick builds.

This is fair, and the only real problem I have with the "trick" builds is the extent to which they can arbitrarily succeed, and the fact that MANY players (RPG-fans or not) regularly ask for balance changes based on their endurance runs... When endurance runs are not supposed to be balanced.

Attempting to balance against endless is an exercise in futility; one player will tell you that L150 qualifies as high-level whereas the next will thump their chest and tell you that 150 is child's play - you gotta hit level 250 before it's "high level."

Everyone moves the goalposts and changes the frame of reference. Consistency is practically impossible.

That's why I want DE to set a max balanced level, NOT simply remove endless gameplay.

Quote

I think it’s wrong to think of stuff like S2W as an “exploit”; there are a lot of players for whom discovering and experimenting with unexpected mod/ability synergies is literally the whole point of Warframe, its entire appeal. And for them especially, the “endlessly scaled endgame” is especially fun, because it means there never comes a point (theoretically) where their ability to develop synergies has reached the apex of its usefulness. Is it a good idea to treat them as a disposable/unwanted part of the playerbase? Or is it a better idea to approach things like melee combos (or headshots, aerial kills, other “stylish” high speed weapon combat) with an eye to making them ALSO a gateway to endless scalability, to help remove that disconnect between “playing off reflexes” and “playing off planning”?

I don’t know. I know if I could get away with not stacking builds with damage buffs just to have a shot at survival, I’d probably only use mods that had unique playstyle attributes and treat “higher level” content as simply more challenging content, because again I hate RPGs. But Warframe balanced to my tastes would be no longer Warframe 

I disagree.

Look at Path of Exile; that game is a build-monger's dream, and there are a number of lengthy youtube build guides for those who would rather just play.

Yet it doesn't allow players to flat-out break the game the way Warframe does. Sure, those builds pop up on occasion, but in my experience they inevitably get balanced.

In other words, it should definitely be possible to allow useful tinkering and experimentation without relying on cheese incentivize it.

IMO the only reason players try to create cheese builds is that endurance runs are the only things that even remotely approach challenging.

If we snip out the worst cheese - CC spam, perma-invis, nuke spam, etc. - the game can actually evolve into something challenging without requiring players to wander 4 hours into a Survival to find that challenge. Players can design "trick" builds around beating or soloing the Sorties/Arbitrations instead.

A lot of endurance runners tend to ask for faster access to high-level content (so that they don't have to wait as long), so nerfing cheese and rebalancing the game around content that is available directly from the solar map is actually probably exactly what they want - whether or not they realize it.

In summary: yes, I agree that endurance runners matter, but I don't think balancing the game actually marginalizes them at all.

[AresTheLegendary]

13 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Not sure I quite understand what you mean here. Would you be planning to use this mechanic to flank a singular enemy?

Let's see if I can simplify. as it stands, our operators can leave their frames through transference, be an operator, and do operator things, while lets say, my equinox is in a particular spot. If I go too far as an operator, Id like to be able to RETURN to where my frame IS, as that could potentially be a safer position (maybe i purposely left it in a safer position). The Idea, is defence. When we leave transference, we essentially summon our frame to our position so we can go offensive. I particularly, would like some defensive use as well. Then i can go BACK to said safe zone where my equinox is, and APPROACH the danger, rather than just being caught in the middle of it summoning my frame to my operators location in the MIDDLE of the danger. Positioning is definitely the aim here. It would give frames like with AoE and specifically Umbra, much more control and use. Maybe i wanna leave my umbra in one area, and fight with my operator in another (interception?) only to find out umbra is about to lose his capture point, in a click, Id be right back to him.

 

The reason why I say this shoulda been the initial ability, is cuz I imagine it's alot more difficult (lore wise) to summon a mass of biomechnics, then just materializing yourself back to said heap. Why not both? I literally see no reason why we cant have both, we have the more powerful version of the 2 already. gimme dat defence!!

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, AresTheLegendary said:

Let's see if I can simplify. as it stands, our operators can leave their frames through transference, be an operator, and do operator things, while lets say, my equinox is in a particular spot. If I go too far as an operator, Id like to be able to RETURN to where my frame IS, as that could potentially be a safer position (maybe i purposely left it in a safer position). The Idea, is defence. When we leave transference, we essentially summon our frame to our position so we can go offensive. I particularly, would like some defensive use as well. Then i can go BACK to said safe zone where my equinox is, and APPROACH the danger, rather than just being caught in the middle of it summoning my frame to my operators location in the MIDDLE of the danger. Positioning is definitely the aim here. It would give frames like with AoE and specifically Umbra, much more control and use. Maybe i wanna leave my umbra in one area, and fight with my operator in another (interception?) only to find out umbra is about to lose his capture point, in a click, Id be right back to him.

 

The reason why I say this shoulda been the initial ability, is cuz I imagine it's alot more difficult (lore wise) to summon a mass of biomechnics, then just materializing yourself back to said heap. Why not both? I literally see no reason why we cant have both, we have the more powerful version of the 2 already. gimme dat defence!!

Ah, okay.

Tap 5 to summon your 'Frame. Hold 5 to return to 'Frame. Seems reasonable?

[RhythmScript]

14 hours ago, Mach25 said:

This is the crux of the issue - energy economy, this is what's throwing balance way off, or is at least a hugely significant part of it. Take away the obscene energy resources and the like and really make players earn their bread, then we'll see how good they really are. I guarantee those 4 hour endurance runs will evaporate into thin air.

In a way that's also a terrible idea, though. Again, reflect on the playerbase and the implications. You already have major balance issues such that even extremely heavily used frames are basically just 4 factories, with all of the other abilities being disregarded as suboptimal due to energy costs. Valkyr's Rip Line is a really fun traversal and combat mechanic (who doesn't love a grappling hook in a game? It's like JustCauseFrame) that nobody ever uses because it's a waste of energy; you want to make energy even MORE scarce? Yes, it guarantees fewer 4s overall, but it also guarantees that any non-nuke ability is relegated to the "absolutely do not use under any circumstances" pile as it is. Heck, that was the reason that Channeling saw such inconsequential use; outside of Life Strike it was pure energy drain you couldn't justify.

If energy becomes even harder to come by, then it needs to come with a SERIOUS reconsideration of energy cost; a lot of abilities honestly need to become free to have any value, and more than a few frames need to have their total numeric energy cost AND the size of their energy pool increased (so the ability still uses 60% of the bar or whatever, but it takes 3x as much energy replenishment to get it back) instead of this static 25/50/75/100-or-channeled thing.

But none of that solves the real issue that melee 3.0 will face, which is no matter how you balance player against enemy, you still have to balance guns against melee. Enemy level scaling changes and mod reworks and energy economy adjusts won't do anything for that.

Ultimately, this is the problem: if I am standing 1m away from an enemy, I can attack him with a melee combo, or I can shoot him with my shotgun

If the shotgun takes more than 2-3 pulls MAXIMUM to kill the enemy, then I won't be having fun using it. I'll come online and complain that Warframe gunplay sucks and is full of bullet sponge enemies and unsatisfying tissue paper weapons.

If the melee weapon takes fewer than about 10-12 strikes MINIMUM to kill the enemy, then there's no point in having a combo system at all, because I barely have time to even finish a combo before the enemy is dead. I'll come online and complain that Warframe melee sucks and is just mindless button-mashing.

If the shotgun takes fewer than 2-3 pulls, and the melee weapon takes more than about 10-12 strikes, both systems will be SATISFYING, but I'll only ever use the shotgun, because it's faster and this is the 700th time I've run this mission node and this is the 312,252nd time I've fought this enemy and I just want my friggin' Nitain Extract and I've got Argon Crystals decaying in my oven and I don't particularly feel like spending any amount of time or effort on the fight right now.

Where we are now is that Warframe is balanced around satisfying gunplay, and so for viability reasons melee weapons have been ramped up to match that level of damage output. And the reason there's so much frustration around melee 3.0 (and the reason I believe S2W is really prominent and bothers DE so much) is that DE is envisioning melee combat as being something like Bayonetta, where you combo enemies and dodge and parry and stuff, but the playerbase can't figure out why anyone would want or need a 15-hit combo that locks their character in place when they can already kill enemies by the dozens with each quick-melee swing of their sword while running at top speed. And everyone is worried that the "spam E to mass-murder" playstyle will be nerfed, not because they want to cheese, but because if they can't even do THAT, there's literally no reason to use melee unless their ammo pool is depleted, because their guns and/or abilities will do the same job faster every single time.

[Urlan]

On 2018-11-02 at 1:11 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

No.

DE should step back and examine why they would want damage to scale in the first place.

Enemy scaling was never supposed to be at the forefront of gameplay to begin with, and the whole point of enemy scaling is to let enemies out-scale players and force them out of endless missions.

Players should not scale at all (beyond simply leveling up/equipping mods). DE needs to sit down and define a concrete "maximum" balanced level and balance player arsenals so that they are reasonably equipped to beat that maximum level. Then they should make it so that above maximum level, players start to lose effectiveness. Trying to make damage scale like CC was a mistake; DE should have simply stopped CC from scaling infinitely.

The fact that players need any scaling at all to keep up with existing content is a sign that balance is broken.

I disagree, scaling for players is what is called as Progression in games; it is core to the concept of pretending we have some rpg like growth. Compare this to Tenno mode for instance right now; no mods. Instead we still have limited progression, but it is relegated to the weapons themselves (amps) and a mod like conditional that can be attached (Virtuos) and for the Tenno mode itself, Waybounds and Magus enhancements. The issue with enemy scaling is using the enemies in a manner that the should not; as DE Steve has stated, in-universe; all enemies are growing in stats due to mod use as are the players. This could be made functionally true by making it so like players, there is a power plateau; where getting new progression is meaningless without removing previous ones due to limited mod slots, points, or availability. The problem is that different rules are managing both sides not that either is inherently more powerful.

[Azamagon]

21 minutes ago, RhythmScript said:

But none of that solves the real issue that melee 3.0 will face, which is no matter how you balance player against enemy, you still have to balance guns against melee. Enemy level scaling changes and mod reworks and energy economy adjusts won't do anything for that.

Ultimately, this is the problem: if I am standing 1m away from an enemy, I can attack him with a melee combo, or I can shoot him with my shotgun

If the shotgun takes more than 2-3 pulls MAXIMUM to kill the enemy, then I won't be having fun using it. I'll come online and complain that Warframe gunplay sucks and is full of bullet sponge enemies and unsatisfying tissue paper weapons.

If the melee weapon takes fewer than about 10-12 strikes MINIMUM to kill the enemy, then there's no point in having a combo system at all, because I barely have time to even finish a combo before the enemy is dead. I'll come online and complain that Warframe melee sucks and is just mindless button-mashing.

If the shotgun takes fewer than 2-3 pulls, and the melee weapon takes more than about 10-12 strikes, both systems will be SATISFYING, but I'll only ever use the shotgun, because it's faster and this is the 700th time I've run this mission node and this is the 312,252nd time I've fought this enemy and I just want my friggin' Nitain Extract and I've got Argon Crystals decaying in my oven and I don't particularly feel like spending any amount of time or effort on the fight right now.

Very good point here.

But, imo, there are a few things they could do to make both of those satisfying systems work, or at least alter their systems:

1) Make combos short and quick, but still let each combo have significant differences (like AoE combo, lifesteal combo, gapclosing attack, finishers/single target massive damage) combo). Long and overly complex acrobatics combos should be long gone, imo. Most fighting games don't have NEARLY as long combos as some of the ones that can be found in Warframe, even though they are often slower paced than Warframe...

2) Make new non-trash enemies who are variably resistant to melee / guns and CC of abilities. For example; If there are enemies who are very spongy for general reasons, like a big and brute melee unit who blocks gunshots well from most of its angles (but won't maybe block shots in a small gap at the head, good for a skilled sniper) and who has quite high ability/CC-resistance, but melee can kill them quicker (especially with single target combos + blocking/dodging would possibly be more necessary for fighting them more smoothly), then there is a more clear reason to vary the weapon useage (and also to not be overly reliant on abilities). You still CAN go full melee or full shooty shooty, but if you vary your weapon useage for the specialized enemies, you'll perform better.

The Guardsmen and Bailiffs (faster+weaker and slower+stronger versions, respectively) could be reworked to function as the big and hulking melee units who resist gunshots better. Currently, both of these are a massive failure for that specialization at the moment.

Further, by having these kind of enemies, abilities like Ash's Teleport suddenly has the potential to become a whole bunch more valuable for general gameplay.

[DiabolusUrsus]

31 minutes ago, Urlan said:

I disagree, scaling for players is what is called as Progression in games; it is core to the concept of pretending we have some rpg like growth. Compare this to Tenno mode for instance right now; no mods. Instead we still have limited progression, but it is relegated to the weapons themselves (amps) and a mod like conditional that can be attached (Virtuos) and for the Tenno mode itself, Waybounds and Magus enhancements. The issue with enemy scaling is using the enemies in a manner that the should not; as DE Steve has stated, in-universe; all enemies are growing in stats due to mod use as are the players. This could be made functionally true by making it so like players, there is a power plateau; where getting new progression is meaningless without removing previous ones due to limited mod slots, points, or availability. The problem is that different rules are managing both sides not that either is inherently more powerful.

This is true, and I can agree with it.

My biggest issue is not that there is any scaling at all so much how that scaling is implemented. I certainly agree that the situation would be much improved by adding a scaling plateau for enemies, with additional endless scaling beyond the standard balance limits handled through scaling the objective (e.g., increasing life support drain or cutting off defense target recovery).

What I meant in the passage you quoted is that players should not be given tools that scale infinitely (like how Slash ignores armor and CC never loses effectiveness). It's fine to scale up their power as they progress, but there should be no reason to give them infinite scaling because players are never supposed to be equipped to beat infinite scaling. Otherwise there's no point to infinite scaling in the first place. Enemy level 300 is functionally the same as level 3,000; both will 1-shot you and the approach to beating them is the same. The only thing that changes is how long it takes.

[Urlan]

10 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

This is true, and I can agree with it.

My biggest issue is not that there is any scaling at all so much how that scaling is implemented. I certainly agree that the situation would be much improved by adding a scaling plateau for enemies, with additional endless scaling beyond the standard balance limits handled through scaling the objective (e.g., increasing life support drain or cutting off defense target recovery).

What I meant in the passage you quoted is that players should not be given tools that scale infinitely (like how Slash ignores armor and CC never loses effectiveness). It's fine to scale up their power as they progress, but there should be no reason to give them infinite scaling because players are never supposed to be equipped to beat infinite scaling. Otherwise there's no point to infinite scaling in the first place. Enemy level 300 is functionally the same as level 3,000; both will 1-shot you and the approach to beating them is the same. The only thing that changes is how long it takes.

I can certainly agree that infinite scaling is difficult to balance for either players or computer controlled resources. Ideally it should be avoided for other options that are more clean to balance thematically and mechanically. Having the current situation where a player must focus on one-shot kills or instant death is never a good one.

[RhythmScript]

17 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

1) Make combos short and quick, but still let each combo have significant differences (like AoE combo, lifesteal combo, gapclosing attack, finishers/single target massive damage) combo). Long and overly complex acrobatics combos should be long gone, imo. Most fighting games don't have NEARLY as long combos as some of the ones that can be found in Warframe, even though they are often slower paced than Warframe...

Warframe is not a fighting game though, it's a PVE action game. We have one melee button, having it churn out just 3-4 three-hitters is the quickest gateway to stale movesets.

Just for comparison, the DMC games have probably the least-involved combo sequences of any action game anyone has ever liked, and you still end up with stuff like this as canned combo strings:

 

Which you can tell is in no small part what the litmus test for Warframe's developers was (what with the pause-input stuff).

Also, I'd like to point out that putting stattributes on combos (lifesteal as an inherent combo property?) really defeats the whole point of a combo system in the first place, which is that attacks have certain influence on your position and the enemy's position and how you combine them is based on managing that. Does the attack knock the enemy down? Away? Upward? Does it move you forward, or backward, or into the air? Will it turn the enemy around, or put you behind them? Will it daze the enemy and/or leave them vulnerable for a period of time? And, of course, does it hit the enemy in front, or all enemies around you? Will it affect enemies behind you? Above you? Etc.

As it stands in Warframe, melee combos can barely even be counted on to lock enemies down for the duration of the combo; if you're going to focus on making melee viable, it should probably start there, so at least it can be a way of interrupting enemy behaviors. I think Melee 3.0, whatever it is, should start with a serious look at how to make melee fun on its own, by examining other action games, and then trying to figure out how to make that gameplay RELEVANT to the overall gameplay of Warframe, rather than trying to find a way to make melee viable first and then reverse-engineering combo system components onto it. If melee's general function in Warframe is going to continue as it is now (a way of attacking enemies alternatively to shooting them) they may as well just remove the combo system entirely and go back to quick-melee/charge-melee and take away melee "equipping" altogether.

[RhythmScript]

Actually, another thing that might work, and would sort of tie into the "spend the multiplier on the heavy" system they toyed with, is to make the combo counter scale up RIDICULOUSLY quickly, but also make it drop off almost immediately, and then make the light melee system work more like the above (based on positioning) where combo ender attacks tend to move the enemy away from the player and they have an extremely short window to try to chain the next combo in. The trick here would be to make it so that you didn't get inherent damage multipliers or procs or "special properties" on the final hit in the string, and you just let the entire multiplier work into that.

So imagine that the combo multiplier increased by a full digit with every hit (a 13 hit combo = a 13x multiplier) but if you went longer than 0.3 seconds without dealing damage to an enemy via melee, the combo counter reset. Also imagine that every combo ender did something to knock the enemy away, so that just mashing E would guarantee a maximum of like, 7 hits damage.

Now, we take the heavy attack and apply the multiplier not only to the damage dealt, but also the size of the (radial AoE) hitbox it generates. So you can hit E for a 7 hit and then immediately drop the heavy for a quick 7x damage burst, or you can chain two more combos into the enemy with a gap closer and a juggle and put together a 35x multiplier, THEN drop the heavy for a room-clearing supernuke combo finisher. High risk high reward because if you miss your frame link and whiff the gap closer, you just wasted your heavy, but if you get good at the combo system then it only takes one Nox and about 25 seconds of involved juggling to massacre every enemy within 100 meters of where you're standing.

[DiabolusUrsus]

41 minutes ago, RhythmScript said:

Warframe is not a fighting game though, it's a PVE action game. We have one melee button, having it churn out just 3-4 three-hitters is the quickest gateway to stale movesets.

Just for comparison, the DMC games have probably the least-involved combo sequences of any action game anyone has ever liked, and you still end up with stuff like this as canned combo strings:

Which you can tell is in no small part what the litmus test for Warframe's developers was (what with the pause-input stuff).

Also, I'd like to point out that putting stattributes on combos (lifesteal as an inherent combo property?) really defeats the whole point of a combo system in the first place, which is that attacks have certain influence on your position and the enemy's position and how you combine them is based on managing that. Does the attack knock the enemy down? Away? Upward? Does it move you forward, or backward, or into the air? Will it turn the enemy around, or put you behind them? Will it daze the enemy and/or leave them vulnerable for a period of time? And, of course, does it hit the enemy in front, or all enemies around you? Will it affect enemies behind you? Above you? Etc.

As it stands in Warframe, melee combos can barely even be counted on to lock enemies down for the duration of the combo; if you're going to focus on making melee viable, it should probably start there, so at least it can be a way of interrupting enemy behaviors. I think Melee 3.0, whatever it is, should start with a serious look at how to make melee fun on its own, by examining other action games, and then trying to figure out how to make that gameplay RELEVANT to the overall gameplay of Warframe, rather than trying to find a way to make melee viable first and then reverse-engineering combo system components onto it. If melee's general function in Warframe is going to continue as it is now (a way of attacking enemies alternatively to shooting them) they may as well just remove the combo system entirely and go back to quick-melee/charge-melee and take away melee "equipping" altogether.

I both agree and disagree with a lot of this.

Warframe's biggest mistake for Melee 2.0 after the janky combo inputs was trying to create involved combos at all. If you are continuing a sustained combo against 1 enemy, something is wrong with your build; enemies are supposed to die in 1-2 hits and the available movesets ought to reflect that. You may feel that 3-4 repeating 3-4 hitters make the combat stale, but in all honesty those types of movesets are what Warframe needs most... with a few caveats.

IMO the best approach would be dynamic combo cycles with separate inputs.

• String of light attacks (E)
• String of heavy attacks (R)
• Strings always trigger in sequence, but can be mixed freely (EERE, ERER, RRER, etc.)
• Holding either key can charge a special attack (e.g., holding the first E might trigger a forward dash, whereas holding the last E might trigger a standing vertical slam).

This control setup would allow players to create their own combat flow using a fairly limited set of simple animations, which would keep the combat feeling fresh and intuitive. In terms of other important details:

• Combos should be fully movement independent; if you stand still you stand still, if you move forward you move forward, if you sprint forward you sprint forward.
• Combos should be fully interruptible and cancelable.
• Stances should all be roughly equivalent performance wise, offering primarily aesthetic differences (e.g., faster stances deal proportionally less damage and vice-versa, to maintain comparable DPS).

[RhythmScript]

Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

Warframe's biggest mistake for Melee 2.0 after the janky combo inputs was trying to create involved combos at all. If you are continuing a sustained combo against 1 enemy, something is wrong with your build; enemies are supposed to die in 1-2 hits and the available movesets ought to reflect that.

And what I've said all along is "if you really feel that way, then there is zero reason that you as a player would not just spam the spin attack"

Because if 1-2 hits is what you want, then the best move is the 360 radial hitbox that lets you continue moving at top speed while you use it. Basically, if you embrace that melee should kill as quickly as guns do, Spin2Win is the inevitable, inescapable result of that.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

And what I've said all along is "if you really feel that way, then there is zero reason that you as a player would not just spam the spin attack"

Because if 1-2 hits is what you want, then the best move is the 360 radial hitbox that lets you continue moving at top speed while you use it. Basically, if you embrace that melee should kill as quickly as guns do, Spin2Win is the inevitable, inescapable result of that.

I very strongly disagree with this sentiment.

Saying that expecting melee to match guns necessarily means a preference for a single spammed attack is like saying that preferring guns necessarily means only wanting to use an Amprex. Spin 2 Win is a direct consequence of the most powerful effective damage boost being tied directly to an easily-spammed attack; take out the spam and everything is fine. Making melee simple and viable does not mean a required reversion to Melee 1.0 where players only spammed 1 charged attack over and over...

As a function of its range, melee should kill individual enemies faster than guns, but guns will hold the advantage in terms of overall kill-rate as a simple function of superior range.

Move Maiming Strike (and equivalent effects) to heavy attacks and cap the attainable melee range to something reasonable, and your problem is solved.

[RhythmScript]

21 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Spin 2 Win is a direct consequence of the most powerful effective damage boost being tied directly to an easily-spammed attack; take out the spam and everything is fine. Making melee simple and viable does not mean a required reversion to Melee 1.0 where players only spammed 1 charged attack over and over...

As a function of its range, melee should kill individual enemies faster than guns, but guns will hold the advantage in terms of overall kill-rate as a simple function of superior range.

But it really does mean that. If melee kills faster than Tigris Prime then there is no reason other than (pretty weak) aesthetics for melee attacks to have any variety besides the simple 1-2 quick melee swings of Warframe-once-upon-a-time. Why waste the effort and development resources on “stances” and whatnot with special animations when all anyone will do is slap the E key while running at full speed? There’s no point in doing anything else. I’m not going to waste time or mental energy thinking about pressing EERE vs RRER or whatever when it will change nothing whatsoever about the net effect. I’ll do whatever combination of keys spits out hitboxes the absolute fastest while running around. There’s no reason to block, to dodge, to anything. Just EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE until everything I can put myself next to is dead. If a player wants to play that way, they should be using a gun, at least aiming takes a modicum of skill.

Melee 2.0 was an attempt to step away from that and toward action games with skill-driven melee; melee 3.0 should continue in this path, not revert back toward what Warframe used to be. Because, spoiler alert, melee 1.0 Warframe was STILL dominated by spin attack spam, and that was before Maiming, before Rivens, and before Scoliac or any other massive range whips existed. It was Dual Zoren spins and Galatine charge attacks; why? Because mobility and easy AoE, which is all you need when your melee weapon oneshots.

That is 100% guaranteed what one-shot-capable melee will yield, because it is the fastest and most efficient way of spitting out one-shot hitboxes. Spin attacks dominated then, spin attacks dominate now, there’s rarely been a time that spin spam wasn’t extremely prominent as a melee playstyle, and the reason is because the melee oneshot meta encourages it heavily.

Best-case scenario spin attacks in general get nerfed to the extent that it’s faster to just use quick melee, but then the entirety of Warframe melee would just be what we have now with Excal Exalted Blade spam, writ large, and honestly I don’t think that sounds even a little bit better.

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, RhythmScript said:

Basically, if you embrace that melee should kill as quickly as guns do, Spin2Win is the inevitable, inescapable result of that.

That slope sure looks slippery to me.

[Mach25]

5 hours ago, RhythmScript said:

If energy becomes even harder to come by, then it needs to come with a SERIOUS reconsideration of energy cost; a lot of abilities honestly need to become free to have any value, and more than a few frames need to have their total numeric energy cost AND the size of their energy pool increased (so the ability still uses 60% of the bar or whatever, but it takes 3x as much energy replenishment to get it back) instead of this static 25/50/75/100-or-channeled thing.

Naturally energy cost would be tweaked and adjusted, that's a given - however, the approach to the issue when talking about dealing with endless enemies cannot be discussed without including the energy economy. I never did agree with this simple multiples of 25 when I first came to this game - the system itself is too rigid and is bound to break sooner or later.

5 hours ago, RhythmScript said:

But none of that solves the real issue that melee 3.0 will face, which is no matter how you balance player against enemy, you still have to balance guns against melee. Enemy level scaling changes and mod reworks and energy economy adjusts won't do anything for that.

Ultimately, this is the problem: if I am standing 1m away from an enemy, I can attack him with a melee combo, or I can shoot him with my shotgunI

There are very many melee players that are simply that - they enjoy melee far more than gunplay. You like to use a shotgun to take down your enemies? Great, but what about people who prefer rifles? Bows? The Blade Alone? The whole point of melee 3.0 is supposed to make the blade equally viable to the gun - the whole premise of the rework is to give players equally viable options on how to deal with the threat they face. Since it has not been shipped and at best we can make nothing but projections, it is best to reserve this line of discussion until the rework arrives.

5 hours ago, RhythmScript said:

If the shotgun takes more than 2-3 pulls MAXIMUM to kill the enemy, then I won't be having fun using it. I'll come online and complain that Warframe gunplay sucks and is full of bullet sponge enemies and unsatisfying tissue paper weapons.

If the melee weapon takes fewer than about 10-12 strikes MINIMUM to kill the enemy, then there's no point in having a combo system at all, because I barely have time to even finish a combo before the enemy is dead. I'll come online and complain that Warframe melee sucks and is just mindless button-mashing.

If the shotgun takes fewer than 2-3 pulls, and the melee weapon takes more than about 10-12 strikes, both systems will be SATISFYING, but I'll only ever use the shotgun, because it's faster and this is the 700th time I've run this mission node and this is the 312,252nd time I've fought this enemy and I just want my friggin' Nitain Extract and I've got Argon Crystals decaying in my oven and I don't particularly feel like spending any amount of time or effort on the fight right now. 

I'm do not mean to be offensive, but your viewpoints here are limited to your experience and personal preferences, which is not what I'm here to discuss and never discuss with other players, anymore than their religion, politics, etc. - there are plenty who would agree and disagree with you about your opinions, so let's move beyond that.

We know warframe is a horde shooter and the idea when fighting multiple opponents is to put them down as quickly as possible - hordes are the chosen system the developers have decided for their game. At lower levels, this is fine, having to do all these combos, but at higher levels, time is compressed and you have less time to put the enemies down before they drop you like a ton of bricks, therefore this necessitates having shorter melee combos to do the damage. The name "ninja" itself necessarily means that your melee combos are very, very quick and effective. As well, you're speaking from the current system as it is when we know M3 is on its way - we don't know what they're going to do with the combo counter or how the stances are going to be reworked - will they put in universal stances where you can end and begin combos as you wish? We know a significant baseline damage boost is on its way. Combos aren't meant to be locked away and ended on a single target, they continue on whatever enemies you have around you, that's the design of the game.

Again, there are far too many unknowns for us to have any significant discussion on the issue of melee, so anything written about that are mere "ifs" - I prefer to speak on what we know and have in our hands as opposed to what we think might be, which could be completely off.

5 hours ago, RhythmScript said:

Where we are now is that Warframe is balanced around satisfying gunplay, and so for viability reasons melee weapons have been ramped up to match that level of damage output. And the reason there's so much frustration around melee 3.0 (and the reason I believe S2W is really prominent and bothers DE so much) is that DE is envisioning melee combat as being something like Bayonetta, where you combo enemies and dodge and parry and stuff, but the playerbase can't figure out why anyone would want or need a 15-hit combo that locks their character in place when they can already kill enemies by the dozens with each quick-melee swing of their sword while running at top speed. And everyone is worried that the "spam E to mass-murder" playstyle will be nerfed, not because they want to cheese, but because if they can't even do THAT, there's literally no reason to use melee unless their ammo pool is depleted, because their guns and/or abilities will do the same job faster every single time.

Where is this frustration coming from? Who's saying this? Can you point me to any posts where there has been a significant amount of negative comments about the rework? Where have you seen this single-target combat system? What are your sources? Again, these are your feelings - there are plenty of people who prefer to melee as opposed to the gun, so that argument is nil. One of the key features of M3 is the removal of locking players into place, another core feature of the rework.

3 hours ago, RhythmScript said:

Because if 1-2 hits is what you want, then the best move is the 360 radial hitbox that lets you continue moving at top speed while you use it. Basically, if you embrace that melee should kill as quickly as guns do, Spin2Win is the inevitable, inescapable result of that.

It seems most of your writings are predicated on the current system remaining as is, though we know that a rework is coming. Are they going to adjust spin attacks? Will they fix the maiming strike that makes S2W so effective? If so, what is the projected impact on the playerbase? Will players branch out into melee more seeing as how you can quickly switch between the gun and blade, as shown in videos If one is equally effective as the other which is in keeping with the premise of the game "warriors of gun and blade". In other threads, the maiming strike glitch was discovered and solutions offered to fix the huge boost that maiming strike offers - will it be implemented? There are far too many unknown variables at this time, therefore this is not a clear path to trod unless we wish to continue with speculation and come up with solutions that may already be integrated into the rework.

[RhythmScript]

20 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

It seems most of your writings are predicated on the current system remaining as is,

I guess my whole point is, IF melee weapons are going to continue to be balanced in such a way that they primarily one-shot enemies, then “combos” mean nothing, because death comes in one swing. Why dial 4 or 5 if the enemy is dead after the first one? For reasons of basic animation fluidity you’d want to round robin a few swing animations, but “combos” in any significant sense lose all relevance. There’s nothing meaningful to separate one set of melee attacks from another, they don’t have unique properties or functions, they don’t do anythjng different to the corpses that fly away as soon as the hitbox comes out.

WHATEVER rework DE comes up with for melee 3.0, it will stop meaning much of anything after the first swing of your melee weapon, unless melee is nerfed heavily. That’s what I’m saying. You can add an attack button and pour hundreds of unique animations and stances with procs and flourishes and branches and it won’t matter if the swings all cut into empty air once everything in melee reach falls in half after the first press of the E key. So really, why bother? If melee is meant to be a viable SUBSTITUTE for guns, capable of lawnmowering scores of enemies to death, why not just go back to melee 1.0 where you swung your sword in front of you back-and-forth while running and there was no such thing as stances?

melee 3.0, the spin2win addressing, it seemed to me an acknowledgement that despite DE’s efforts to add depth and complexity to melee, it never ACTUALLY stopped being a means of spamming attack while jumping around, and the resolve to take another crack at it. If all anyone wants is for spamming crouched E to give way to spamming uncrouched E, I personally think a “rework” accomplishes less than just removing stance mods entirely. A lot of time and animator energy could be saved by just randomizing the alternated quick melee swing animations (a la Raiden’s endless light combo in MGR) to make melee look flashier and more ninjaesque, and removing any concepts of “combos”, “heavy attacks”, “gap closers”, “blocking”, etc., in their entirety.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

But it really does mean that. If melee kills faster than Tigris Prime then there is no reason other than (pretty weak) aesthetics for melee attacks to have any variety besides the simple 1-2 quick melee swings of Warframe-once-upon-a-time. Why waste the effort and development resources on “stances” and whatnot with special animations when all anyone will do is slap the E key while running at full speed? There’s no point in doing anything else. I’m not going to waste time or mental energy thinking about pressing EERE vs RRER or whatever when it will change nothing whatsoever about the net effect. I’ll do whatever combination of keys spits out hitboxes the absolute fastest while running around. There’s no reason to block, to dodge, to anything. Just EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE until everything I can put myself next to is dead. If a player wants to play that way, they should be using a gun, at least aiming takes a modicum of skill.

This is entirely your personal preference, and with games as an entertainment value artform, there is merit to producing an aesthetically pleasing experience.

Most players were perfectly happy to spam charged attacks in Melee 1.0, and 2.0 started out as nothing more than extra animations for variety! Saying that simple melee attacks may as well be 1-2 animations is like saying the Tigris is indistinguishable from the Corinth.

Just because you can't be bothered to invest mental energy into planning your combos doesn't mean nobody else would be.

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

Melee 2.0 was an attempt to step away from that and toward action games with skill-driven melee; melee 3.0 should continue in this path, not revert back toward what Warframe used to be. Because, spoiler alert, melee 1.0 Warframe was STILL dominated by spin attack spam, and that was before Maiming, before Rivens, and before Scoliac or any other massive range whips existed. It was Dual Zoren spins and Galatine charge attacks; why? Because mobility and easy AoE, which is all you need when your melee weapon oneshots.

Are you joking? Zorencopters and equivalent were actually fairly  rare, and the Galatine was far from ubiquitous.

People only spammed charged attacks because they ignored armor, while normal attacks didn't 

Melee 2.0's mistake was that it tried to overcomplicate things when Warframe combat doesn't have the depth to support that type of skill floor. Why are we bothering with specialized combos when enemies die almost instantly?

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

That is 100% guaranteed what one-shot-capable melee will yield, because it is the fastest and most efficient way of spitting out one-shot hitboxes. Spin attacks dominated then, spin attacks dominate now, there’s rarely been a time that spin spam wasn’t extremely prominent as a melee playstyle, and the reason is because the melee oneshot meta encourages it heavily.

We already have one-shot melee, and yet melee is actually reasonably diverse already. Sure I'll see Atteraxes and Secura Lectas and whatnot, but I see more people using normal melee than I see using S2W.

So what if people spam an attack? If that's what they wanna do, let them provided it doesn't intrude on other players. Just nerf the range and you're good.

1 hour ago, RhythmScript said:

Best-case scenario spin attacks in general get nerfed to the extent that it’s faster to just use quick melee, but then the entirety of Warframe melee would just be what we have now with Excal Exalted Blade spam, writ large, and honestly I don’t think that sounds even a little bit better.

The problem with Exalted Blade is that it covers all ranges. I don't understand why or HOW you expect melee to be anything more than simply mashing E. The game doesn't have enough mechanical depth to support more.