[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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This thread shows no signs of hitting critical mass or slowing.

The big questions are:

Where are the devs currently at with 3.0, ?

Does a cut-off exist for this potentially never-ending project?

Do the devs and WF community have a substantial understanding of "who" 3.0 is for?

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I believe that a thought-out mix of BDO(general combat idea for "basic" attacks), DmC:dmc (aka redundant:redundancy) (the "modes" (but instead of angel/devil maybe "focused/broad" or |offensive/defensive" or something, based on the equipped stance)

while the "default mode" would be vanilla/stanceless/quickmelee,
The modes would enable "special" moves like gap-closers||CC||Disarms||Status Procs (and maybe change the basic string?)
(Honestly, there is no reason to not use reload as a melee input, it isn't tied to any other action on the controller as far as I know, it frees up another spot for a held-type input like the current block and channeling
(and implementing two modes could be a way for us to have two stances equipped, one for each of the modes one can dream...)

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)TheRallykiller said:

This thread shows no signs of hitting critical mass or slowing.

The big questions are:

Where are the devs currently at with 3.0, ?

Does a cut-off exist for this potentially never-ending project?

Do the devs and WF community have a substantial understanding of "who" 3.0 is for?

back then they said it would drop beore Fortuna, they also said there would be a separate Workshop dealing with the mods/CmboCounter/other issues...

Edited by Drejzer
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Welp, the Fortuna build notes are putting melee 3.0 on the horizon near the same time as the Orb Spider/Vox Solaris increased standing patch, a few weeks out, if I'm reading correctly.

Which I guess means that whatever they were planning for this, they feel they've got it fairly well nailed down.

Fingers crossed.

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Why remove Melee Momentum ? :angry:

Swinging Heavy melees like Hammers and heavy blades (or certain stances like Vengeful Revenant ) used to be uninterruptible but now they are gone !

Imagine this : When you rush to enemies and try to use some flashy combo to finisher them off... OOPS, getting knocked down over and over again mid-combo by some Heavygunners or MOA ! FEELS BAD MAN !

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I realize this may be an unpopular/controversial opinion, but honestly I'd rather just dump channeling altogether and have {block + attack} just perform bash attacks to stagger heavy enemies, knockdown light enemies, and be able to charge it up to do a forward dashing bash (10m or so) which applies this to enemies in your path. I also feel that wall attacks never get used and are hard to target/execute anyway, so maybe those can get some mechanical tweaks to be more usable.

As for freeing up a button for melee, I think there are some interesting options for combo play by making them into an A, B, Block input, which could go a few ways.

A: Horizontal attack

B Vertical attack

or

A: Light attack

B: Heavy attack

or

A: Normal attack

B: Special attack; giving melee "abilities" similar to warframes, which use energy, and access different abilities depending on when they are executed in a combo. This would probably be a very long term project (3+ years at least) given the projected scope of the change.

or maybe something else entirely...

Using one of the above systems, using Block + A or B could have a wide variety of attacks, maneuvers, special effects, etc., as well as integrating block more naturally into melee combat in the first place. The combo systems would become much more elaborate, I think, but at least they would be interesting.

One final suggestion I might offer in this post is to diversify which kinds of weapons get multipliers for certain kinds of attacks. It's silly that the spin attack is one of the highest damage attacks for a dagger as well as a staff, if you get my meaning. Give certain weapon types specialties. For example, I think whips getting a bonus to their aerial attacks would really high on the cool factor as well as setting them apart from other weapons. Big 2-handed mauls/hammers having the highest slam damage would make sense too, just as another example.

 

To be entirely honest, and this isn't in any way meant to disparage DE, I don't really use melee weapons that much as they currently are. I don't have [Meme-ing Strike], so spin-towin isn't a thing for me (at least on PC, I do have it on PS4), so I mostly use melee weapons for breaking open containers, stealth kills in spy/rescue areas, and MR fodder. Channeling is too awkward and the combos are too unreliable to time if you use fast weapons with IAS mods/buffs. Heavy/slow weapons are really just to execute downed enemies. In general I just prefer gunplay most of the time, but I probably would use melee if it were closer to the above suggestions and spin-to-win didn't make everything else irrelevant. Also, having to actually "equip" my melee weapon is a huge downer. It just doesn't feel fluid. These are just my experiences, though. I'm not trying to speak for everyone on this.

 

Edit: Realized I had one more suggestion for melee.

Remove polarity from stances and allow people to equip (at least) two stances at a time, then in combat you can use the alt-fire button to switch between them. Doing this at the right time during a combo could let you continue your animation without the "wind down" animations that normally happen with combos. This would be a HUGE win for Melee 3.0.

Edited by FrostDragoon

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28 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Oh my. Not coming this year.

You know, with the number of stat changes involved and the like I'm not extremely surprised, but could we at least have the Dev Workshop discussing how the new mechanics will work, what will happen to channeling, etc.?

If it's true that there's just too much work grinding through all the data points on weapons, rivens, stance cards, etc., okay, fine, that's probably a ton of data to rebalance, but at least some indication of what DE intends to DO with melee (outside of stat changes) since we've seen a whole bunch of things. I think that's all anyone is concerned with, anyway; stat changes are stat changes, they happen all the time, and if one weapon becomes less viable than another (grumbling aside) people will adapt. But if melee is changed in a way that radically alters its viability or functionality as a SYSTEM, that's what everyone is anxious about.

Show us what's being worked on, talk to us about what's being worked on, and if that means "none of the stats here are final", okay.

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41 minutes ago, RhythmScript said:

Show us what's being worked on, talk to us about what's being worked on, and if that means "none of the stats here are final", okay.

^ This.

I don't think the stats are even important yet; just update us on what the mechanics are and how they interact.

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Next year? Alright. But they did say on the devstream that we would be getting some things from 3.0 before its launch, so that's good. Still, the players are curious about what's going on under the hood - a workshop would be much appreciated!

Edited by Mach25
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Welp, last time i checked the Tempo Royale stance was "affected" with the "new" melee 3.0 stupid not moving while melee fix, now my other stance for pole arms was nerfed. If this is the future of melee 3.0 then i can just stop using it all together. The reason why so many veterans left the game was that DE wants that people play this game with "moving" on the map in mind, the whole point of the dev goal was moving around the map, with the direction the melee is taking now it looks like it will be just standing still and mashing E button, since moving is so slow with melee now. Only thing that works is slide attack that keeps the momentum forward.

Sorry DE but you going in the wrong way, if it works why do you break things. 

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Oh i forgot to mention this here....Please use "Ghoul" stance for "Fist" and "Sparring" blocking.  Its better than what we currently have.

iRfZjwY.jpg

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What I would love to see changed in melee is the spin-to-win damage modifier. I understand the thought behind attacking melee while doing Parkour movements is... errr… more "noble" than just hitting with the melee weapon. But that creates a very ugly button mashing gameplay where you simply spam a bunch of buttons and damage is high. The combo moves are so much sweeter visually and as a feedback to my gameplay than just the spin-to-win. So yeah, I wish they were gone with the inflated numbers for parkour attacks.

Edited by Rash-X

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4 hours ago, Mifune013 said:

Hey, whatever happened to Damage 2.5?

I think it was delayed for now due to community feedback on how it seemed to be just a degrade to slash and didn't cover the failings of other physical types. Really, it was a status 2.5 deal; and Khora was connected to it. Redesigning her to remove that heavy link was why she was delayed from Ghouls Purge's first showing to Onslaught I recall.

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I for one would like to have stacking status, like we can have yellow/orange/red crits.

As a rule of thumb, the first status of that type would be white, and affect only the target. The second would be yellow, and proc a smaller AoE, affecting enemies around it and refreshing/adding to duration. Subsequent stacking status would combine duration further and increase AoE range each time. 

The effects of each element should be looked into to have them all equally desirable in certain cirmustances. For example, Slash and corrosive are very good a lot of the time, where impact usually is neglected.

Enemies should be rebalanced towards having every damage type broadly useful, but each faction would be biased to be resistant/vulnerable to certain attacks.

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While I dont think this is on topic, but should weapons that have shield gain the same type of system as glaives get? As in when you equip your secondary, you equip your shield with it, giving you extra frontal protection

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42 minutes ago, TheFranss said:

While I dont think this is on topic, but should weapons that have shield gain the same type of system as glaives get? As in when you equip your secondary, you equip your shield with it, giving you extra frontal protection

They’ve said (though whether they’ll commit or not is obviously up for debate) that part of melee 3.0 is going to be simultaneous equip of secondary and melee for all single-handed secondaries (and presumably single-handed melee).

Frankly I’m not sure there’s much point with implied switching, I guess it produces a fractionally smaller holster time change but alternating between quick melee and gunfire is already so fast it barely matters. The whole “dual wield” mechanic was interesting when it was announced because it was announced before implied switch. Now I don’t know if they will bother. In either case, adding block functionality to aiming with your secondary when you have a sword + shield as melee might be interesting.

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Le 17/11/2018 à 13:13, Bl4ckM0onk3y a dit :

Welp, last time i checked the Tempo Royale stance was "affected" with the "new" melee 3.0 stupid not moving while melee fix, now my other stance for pole arms was nerfed. If this is the future of melee 3.0 then i can just stop using it all together. The reason why so many veterans left the game was that DE wants that people play this game with "moving" on the map in mind, the whole point of the dev goal was moving around the map, with the direction the melee is taking now it looks like it will be just standing still and mashing E button, since moving is so slow with melee now. Only thing that works is slide attack that keeps the momentum forward.

Sorry DE but you going in the wrong way, if it works why do you break things. 

I don't mind "moving" but charging awkwardly forward, passing by your enemy and ending your move in some random empty "void" tile thus reseting your frame's buffs and position is not what i would call the pinnacle of fun in modern videogames.

There's something really wrong in how tiles are designed in this game and in how collisions work. Maybe melee 3.0 should also help with that.

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1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

I don't mind "moving" but charging awkwardly forward, passing by your enemy and ending your move in some random empty "void" tile thus reseting your frame's buffs and position is not what i would call the pinnacle of fun in modern videogames.

There's something really wrong in how tiles are designed in this game and in how collisions work. Maybe melee 3.0 should also help with that.

It seems from what we’ve seen that melee 3.0 is removing the “big lunging lurch animation” parts of combos, and putting them on a command gap-closer (tentatively block+melee). Which makes sense, because you basically never want to lurch forward at the middle/end of a combo but frequently want to do it on-command in specific scenarios. So hopefully part and parcel to that change is that combos don’t move you further than a single step forward per swing, because I agree, as it is your mobility during combos is friggin weird and more often than not puts you some place you never intended to be.

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I would like if if we can move forward by input when we're swing these melee weapons. Try to attack an enemy while it's walking backwards. The melee is too slow to hit AND the tenno is stepping ever so slowly toward the target. On the other hand, with any attack speed buff, the combo attacks causes the tenno to pass by the target missing it entirely. One of the few reasons slide attacks are more efficient.  I just hope melee 3.0 doesn't allow us to jump attack into a slide attack back to a jump attack and repeat.

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I've been playing some Dynasty Warriors lately(it's been a long time since I last played it), and I remember someone sugesting it way back when the devs made the first suggestions about the melee rework. I must say, I have to agree with them. Dysasty Warrior style would work here perfectly. Specially if they kept each weapon type unique and added some specialties such as, some weapons could have better aerial combos(which they actually intended to implement) allowing you to keep enemies from falling while moving in the air for a bit. This could be a good way to maximize the potential of a slam attack as a finisher. You could juggle the enemies a bit, while directing them closer to more enemies to finish with a slam attack.

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On 2018-05-11 at 12:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

 

 

Hoping that

a Glaive Throw

a Gunblade Firing

will be reworked so they are activated via Heavy Attack?

otherwise RIP Sarpa and Channeled Throw Glaive...

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I think this post should be locked for historical reasons, an a new one created, to concentrate ideas of the new plan: 

To create the melee update and review one melee weapon class at a time, bringing them into the new system one at a time. 

 

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Since this thread is somewhat out of date, it has been locked for historical reasons. We have talked a lot on the Dev Streams about the changes coming to Melee, and if you have been following them, you’ll know that we have a lot planned, and some changes have already been made.

There is much more coming later as we continue into 2019, with more information coming to you as we make advancements. Stay tuned, Tenno!
 

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