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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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Please don't forget what Steve said in the stream: Rivens and mods and arcanes that affect channeling will be translated to work similarly into the new system.

I have 90 rivens. Most of my melee rivens involves channeling because I actually used it a ton (you can blame Arcane Energize if you wish), I use the Exodia Triumph (status procs = channel damage boost). Don't make me re-roll ALL my zaw rivens because of this. xD

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The combo meter is what allows us to actually damage high leveled enemies. Can't see damage buffs being as strong as a combo 3x multiplier.

Ya'll need to realize that not every player just plays star chart and then quits the game after that. A lot of us play long survivals,defenses,and other stuff with high level enemies that without a combo counter would just make melee completely useless.

If the combo multiplier doesn't affect regular attacks and mods like drifting contact,body count,blood rush,and weeping wounds are made worthless,how is anyone supposed to damage ANYTHING outside of basic start chart missions?

These mods made it possible to damage enemies in a timely manner when combined with the combo damage multiplier.

I can tell you this much,if the multiplier is going to ONLY affect heavy attacks and regular attacks are going to be useless,i'm not going to stand in front of a enemy tickling them with weak regular attacks just to get to a point so my heavy attack is revved up to actually do good amounts of damage. Only to have to rev it up again for another enemy so I can lay out another heavy attack.

Edit:
I have a way to fix your problem with slide to win: remove connecting attacks with sliding.
Boom. I've just solved slide to win. 
It's not just slide to win that makes it super strong,it's also the sliding speed added up with the damage output. You're able to move good distances and cover large areas fast because of the speed in the slide combined with the attack.

Either remove the movement distance from the slide attacks or just completely remove slide attacks and replace them with something else.

Instead of having to rework excalibur,titania,and wukong because of combo changes AND all combo related mods(drifting contact,blood rush,weeping wounds,body count etc),all you'd have to do is rework maiming strike and riven stats about slide damage.

I'm not saying swap maiming strike with something trashy. Maybe make its damage apply to slam attacks or channeled attacks or attacks at the END of combos.

 

Edited by wizardeiges
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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!

Does this mean I can use Krohkur with Akbolto prime? Or does it only work with one handed secondary pistols? 

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Something to keep in mind Dev's is warframe is a horde game, more specifically a horde game where enemies have the power to disable your abilities and also one shot you. If you want to refocus on melee and reward a player for using it then perhaps blocking melee working through objects might be a step too far, keep in mind warframe is a game that includes punch through value on ranged weapons to get around all the garbage in a level that can block your shot. It should follow logically that we would want the same thing for our melee weapons to get around barrel #95926 blocking yet another nullifier who is shooting me over the side of it and using it for cover against me by trying to keep it between us while strafing. Using objects as collision detection vs melee is only going to result in frustration when players have to go around the trash of a level and spend twice the time clearing each room. It may not feel like a big deal but when you look at just how many objects each stage has and how much junk the enemies can stand behind it really does add up. It means taking twice the incoming fire which is bad in high level play, and the last thing I would think we would want to encourage is making an underutilized system even less fun.

I understand the logic of walls blocking melee attacks and the abuse videos makes it clear that somethings gotta change there, I just feel like objects shouldn't also be included as well.

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Okay so, obviously it isn't released yet so some of these might be present but what I'd personally like to see:

  • Make blocking / channeling draw from the combo counter instead of the energy pool
    • People aren't channelling very often for a reason
  • Ensure the combo counter can climb really good (to make up for the things drawing from it)
  • When quick-attacking while blocking / channeling, the attacks are multiplied by the combo counter, scaling with channeling damage
    • But they reduce the combo counter (affected by channelling efficiency, maybe to the point of multiple hits costing one from the combo counter)
  • Heavy attacks work the same as quick attacks described above (draw from combo counter when channelling, not the entire thing)
    • But they draw a lot more (maybe 10-20 hits, IDK I'm not good with numbers)
  • Make combos focus on using sequences of light and heavy attack inputs
    • No more awkward pauses or holding or not holding in awkward directions (seriously, one has you holding left for some reason, or those that require holding back when you want to attack forward...)
  • Set some on-channel bonuses to apply to blocking instead of channelled attacking (or play around with the idea at least)
    • E.g. Life Strike can give health when blocking
    • Provides a greater emphasis on a rhythm of blocking and attacking
      • Still requires attacking to be able to block but doesn't mean you need to go on a suicidal rush to that Bombard to get some HP back, for example
  • Ensure mods like Blood Rush still scale with combo multiplier
  • Dual-wield blocking / channelling?
    • As long as it doesn't mess with aiming down sights, it might make it more worthwhile
  • A little bit faster weapon switching (to encourage people use full-fledged melee—they draw it fast enough when quick-attacking, after all!)
  • Show the combo counter (not the multiplier) beside all weapons, not just when dual-wielding
    • Quick melee should still contribute to the combo counter, after all

In effect: a little bit extra dance between offence and defence, channelling mods still playing into things, simpler combo controls, and a level of effective play requiring a bit more rhythm: when to channel and when not to channel. And also melee becomes completely self-contained: it builds combo, it drains from combo. No energy pulls required.

That's all just spitballing, though.

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Just now, (PS4)LorcSephiroth said:

Does this mean I can use Krohkur with Akbolto prime? Or does it only work with one handed secondary pistols?  

I think they meant to write "one handed pistol" but screwed up indeed 😛

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Justo ahora, wizardeiges dijo:

The combo meter is what allows us to actually damage high leveled enemies. Can't see damage buffs being as strong as a combo 3x multiplier.

Ya'll need to realize that not every player just plays star chart and then quits the game after that. A lot of us play long survivals,defenses,and other stuff with high level enemies that without a combo counter would just make melee completely useless.

Hit them with slam and heavy attacks... Oh wait, while u were charging the attack the horde killed you because u were focused only in one enemy... No #*!%*ng sense.

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It doesn't matter how much they buff the base damage of the weapons, losing combo on heavy attacks is going to mean one thing. No one will ever use them. This isn't going to be easy to explain as most people have no clue what the hell is actually going on while they melee, since it isn't actually explained anywhere in game. These proposed changes are going to push the meta TOWARDS Range+ Rivens, Maiming Strike Macros, and builds where you repeat the same normals over and over. Maiming strike in and of itself was never the problem, it's just one part of a bigger equation. The interaction between Macro's, 6,000p Scoliac Rivens and that equation, that's the root of the problem.

Look, for the Atterax or Scoliac it works like this.

Range feeds into Attack Speed (Berserker, triggered by Maiming) to run up the Combo Counter (number of enemies hit per second is increased by range and speed).
The Combo Counter is used to run up Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds to convert otherwise pathetic damage into procs.
Yes. Pathetic damage. Without multiple enemies to hit and run up that combo counter, without the ability to hit those multiple enemies thanks to range and speed, without the status of Weeping Wounds and the crit from Blood Rush, even with the boost from Maiming Strike, you will hit that single enemy for a pathetic amount of damage.

This is why people get angry at the cost of Maiming Strike. They drop 400p on it before realizing they need more than one mod.
That's why whip rivens with +Range +Attack Speed and +Combo Time sell for 2-6k platinum, in case anyone's ever seen someone trying to move one and wondered why the price was so ridiculous.
That's why people use macros, to whip the most enemies in the least amount of time to run up the combo meter, which boosts damage to be converted through blood rush and weeping, while maintaining that combo.

If the changes go through as is, 3 things will happen.

1 - No one will ever use heavy attacks if they remove the combo counter. That is a direct nerf to scaling.
2 - No one will ever block if it costs anything to do so.
3 - We're just going to keep Pressure Point, Reach, Organ Shatter, and Maiming while adding as much       elemental damage as we can on our weapons and keep doing the same exact thing.
  - Or we just build for normal attacks and spam them, as actually using a single heavy attack would be      completely counter productive towards killing anything.

That "new player experience" of having nothing to kill stays, and vets who actually enjoy melee combos and stances as they are now lose the scaling for higher level content, unless they restrict themselves to plain attacks. In many ways, this seems to share the exact same problem with "Damage 2.5", where instead of adding variety, this is only going to narrow our choices further, without actually doing much to address the current, legitimately annoying and broken part of the meta, namely Whips with Macro's + Range Rivens, even with the proposed cap and surface interruption applied.

Which is really sad. Silva & Aegis Prime, Nikana Prime, Galatine Prime, Venka Prime, Mios, Lacera, Jat Kusar, Arca Titron, Sancti Magistar, Twin Basolk, Prisma Dual Cleavers, Gazal Machete, Hirudo, all excellent weapons capable of taking advantage of the interaction I explained above, as opposed to only functioning because of it.  Yet other than Nikanas or Galatines, I hardly ever see anyone using them, and when I ask, or am asked about them, I find out that it's simply due to the fact that they don't know. They've never bothered to really try them out, because elemental damage bonuses aren't explained to new players, and googling the chart is easier than finding them in game. Because of that lack of information from the game and an abundance of click bait videos on youtube proclaiming nonsense like "Best Weapon In the Game!", these changes get rolled out, and the whole system runs the risk of falling into a new meta of even more repetitive attacks.

Thankfully, these are only proposed changes. I'd rather melee actually scale and keep the whole "Masters of Gun and Blade" thing, than see it turn into "Masters of Gun and a crate opener". Though if you can't hit crates through walls anymore... hmm...

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1 minute ago, NightmareT12 said:

I think they meant to write "one handed pistol" but screwed up indeed 😛

Pity. Here's hoping they prime a better one handed pistol than what we currently have. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)LorcSephiroth said:

Does this mean I can use Krohkur with Akbolto prime? Or does it only work with one handed secondary pistols? 

Based on dual-wielding right now, both have to be single-handed. Which makes sense in a way because you only have two hands (sorry, but trying to use a codpiece to fire an Akbolto pistol doesn't count 😛 )

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Image result for popcorn

here some people might want this the doomsayers are coming and i want to watch S#&$ burn and enjoy the sound of prices drop as all the spin to win people come out and see people be salty 

my acual thoughts blood rush and weeping should still behave as they normally would and to people saying oh your trying to hit one person in a horde shooter your one swing can hit as many people as the weapon will allow and range is still a thing just being toned down 

so simmer down or not either way S#&$s fun to read

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2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

...

DE, you guys don’t think of your game as a horde shooter. You think of it as a limited tactical shooter, where players maneuver around and take out small groups of enemies at a time. That’s fine and all, but that is very much not the game which you have actually built....


Adding on to this, i would recommend the following to address melee rework: Keep the combo counter affecting both base and heavy attacks, make heavy melee pull, say 5x off the combo counter to execute a heavy attack (adjustable, dependent upon how quickly combos counters can be built). You want a rhythm to the game - think along the lines of the Batman Arkham series. That is a universally lauded game series, they have combo counters as well as takedown, i.e. heavy attacks and it works very well.

Edited by Mach25
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14 minutes ago, wizardeiges said:

The combo meter is what allows us to actually damage high leveled enemies. Can't see damage buffs being as strong as a combo 3x multiplier.

Considering Blood Rush, it's potentially even way higher than that on crit-based weapons.

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Il y a 2 heures, BL4CKN0ISE a dit :

I'm excited, but it's definitely a nerf. DE was very clear about certain things that prove they are nerfing melee. They flat out said they are nerfing spin2win and there will be no more clipping with range mods.

They're nerfing overall DPS, but it seems like they're buffing melee gameplay. This isn't like the beam weapons rework. Melee is currently the strongest weapon type in the game. They're not making them stronger. They'll probably just be more fun to use and less cheesy.  

Melee will remain the strongest weapon type in the game because it gives the highest return for the lowest skill input. Apparently spin to win isn't changed or removed entirely, the AoEs are still massive and will get dramatically increased across the board, and finally, the raw damage is far superior to the ones guns that don't require aiming offer, so unless DE somehow finds a way to bring the damage per second values under the Penta/tonkor values in spite of the changes they posted, there's no reason to call it a nerf.

Edited by sixmille

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1 hour ago, -CLM-Joker said:

I don't get it, if the problem is the spin-to-win against a wall tactic, then why nerf all the melees rather than just work on Maiming Strike and similar mods that make this possible?

You are once again trying to fix the symptoms rather than cure the disease.

Spin to win through walls is NOT a maiming strike issue. It's an uninhibited range problem. Maiming strike is damage, reach is the "through walls" part.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)wart_13 said:

Spin to win through walls is NOT a maiming strike issue. It's an uninhibited range problem. Maiming strike is damage, reach is the "through walls" part.

their making melee conform to a law of reality that you cannot take a sword have a lot of reach on it and stab it into the wall and stab a guy 5 feet though said wall but you can do it in a hall way i assume it would work line of sight between you and enemy if it hits or nots 

 

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Preface: i realize sometimes i come across as angry or bitter in text that is not intended this is all intended as constructive criticism and suggestion for the purpose of making the game i love better

i am really happy to see that you guys are tackling this HOWEVER i know you guys don't want to do anything half assed and that is honestly what the current iteration strikes me ass, it feels like you want to redo the system and you already have some assets so your putting your accounting skills to work in getting the most out of the least effort (somewhat like players who use maiming) please dont do that if your going to do this do it right, implement a full heavy attack system instead of just shifting the button that charged attacks are preformed from

i would love to see an attack tree to the effect of sequential light attacks into a heavy attack having different animations for each for a long time my criticism of warframe has been the lack of fun in the melee system i use maiming not because i just want everything to die but because i'm bored of using melee any other way so might as well just spin attack if its an equel amount of fun anyway, id prefer something like this

heavy attack 1

light attack1 >heavy attack 2

light attack 1>light attack 2>heavy attack3

light attack 1>light attack 2>light attack 3>heavy attack 4

light attack 1>light attack 2>light attack 3>light attack 4>heavy attack 5

the least i see that can be gotten away with is 4 light attacks for decent variety (this is a similar system to most any spectacle fighter or action rpg) i know you said that you did not want to implement a system like this before at melee 2.0 and that you wanted something uniquely warframe, well apparently what you guys thought was uniquely warframe was...boring (sorry)

if you guys are going to do an overhaul of melee do it right don't do a rework just for taking away a toy (maiming) when you take something you have to give us something to replace it that we can have fun with and still actually kill things at high levels, unless your buffing melee weapon damage to be the same as the current x5 combo meter then your just nerfing melee, don't take away channeling just to make a one use charge attack that we have to wait to use again, your just giving us another button we won't press and HEY look at that its the same button we havn't been pressing

i want this game to be good like i know DE does, but you need to put more effort into system reworks like THIS and less into big flashy new things that draw in new people with new wallets, you start every stream off with house keeping and do minimal house keeping on your own game

i know what i said is not a short time implementations and redoing melee should absolutely not be if i see any sweeping changes like this in 6 months i'm going to be livid because you clearly did not put enough time into it

please keep making this game well, Swiftfingers

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I am so happy that Spin2Win meta gonna end soon  gosh  i dont even know how people find that fun or enjoyable 

 

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Just now, HorneySaint said:

I am so happy that Spin2Win meta gonna end soon  gosh  i dont even know how people find that fun or enjoyable 

 

they only care for how quickly they do it nothing else really matters imo

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I'd like to see channeling reworked in to a resource that builds up from attacks, then maybe you activate it and get the channeling damage buff for a limited time as the channeling you've built up expends itself over time. Kind of like the "rage" mechanic some character classes use in mmos, except the channeling is stored until you activate channel mode, then you kind of go into "super melee damage mode" until all the channeling is spent.

I think this would make a nice ebb and flow of interactive combat, and it kind of sounds like DE is already going this way with charge attack so this may be superfluous, or maybe it could coincide. Either way the proposed changes look really positive overall and I'm really looking forward to it.

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Justo ahora, HorneySaint dijo:

I am so happy that Spin2Win meta gonna end soon  gosh  i dont even know how people find that fun or enjoyable 

 

Me too, i have Maiming Strike but i dont use it, i find it deeply boring, i dont like to play melee that way, and if i get a riven with maiming strike potential i re roll it cause i dont like it.

 

But thats one point, nerf the entire melee system another one, very different. 

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Hi, seems interesting i'm looking forward to it, really curious about the new possibilities, but i have just one question about the VFX of the armors/syandana: are you planning to add the option to keep them on/off directly in the arsenal? I really love to channel (at the extraction mostly) with my Edo Prime to see the lightnings (like every other effect on the prime accessories), or the effects on the frames (Frost base shoulder armor + the electricity effect all over the skin), and being able to see these effects always on while running is something i really would love to see (i'm hoping for this since 2015)... just imagine, with the new GPU Particles, SUPER COOL.

You're doing great DE, keep up the good work! 😄 

(Also, sorry for my bad English).

EDIT: I wonder how the Zenistar will work... 

Edited by (XB1)Ykarho Kusanaji

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4 hours ago, Ayjis said:

I'd suggest not scrapping combo counter multiplier on normal attacks. For one, melee damage is already pretty high, so buffing that higher for the compensation is going to make melee damage kind of ridiculous. Even without spinning through walls and range nerfs, spin-to-win will likely still be present since the damage will be so high. Secondly though, it feels good to get that extra damage for killing everything with melee. It's really rewarding when you can keep your combo going. Maybe heavy attacks could just get a bigger benefit from the combo multiplier instead.

This was exactly what i was thinking, considering they're going to buff base damage a lot i don't see how this change is going to change anything on anything other than high level content. The current "troublesome" weapons will still be more than viable - if not to continue to wipe everything up - for most of the content ... And even then people will just change from it to spamming overpowered CO builds and/or heavy attacks.

Seem like trying to overcomplicate the issue and break the melee system when they could just decouple the blood rush/maiming strike interaction ...

Edited by tastemyrath
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