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Melee: Present and Future goals!


[DE]Rebecca

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5 minutes ago, KolDynamo said:

 

could we leave blocking as it is? energy without zenurik is already hard to handle as it is and energy siphon does nothing when your warframe guzzles energy like a garbage compactor eats garbage, and having combo counter only affect heavy attacks pretty much makes combo counter useless due to the fact heavy attacks take way too long to execute and since all charges are consumed, it'll take a long time to build it up again. also, what will happen to the blood rush melee builds? i like my crits. hopefully these matters are addressed with the changes.

going ot repeat myself i assume it would be normal like it is now since all BR and WW care about is: Do you have combo counter?: yes Ok how many times to i apply the bonus? 

if you burn it in a heavy it sounds like you could get it back pretty quick since rebecca said you could build it up faster then there are mods to help it go faster like uh relentless assault if you weapon proc slash 

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Okay, we all know, that you, developers, don't play your own game much. This is why you constantly bothered by "killing enemies you don't see" that was never a problem in the first place, since people almost completely abandoned Berehinya with Sanctuary Onslaught release. This shows that all your problems with loot-caves is not the fault of frames or weapons, but gameplay bottlenecks, that force players to perform mind-numbing repetitive behavior.

But there is a bigger problem looming with upcoming change - We need to be able to break boxes through walls. Destroying millions of boxes individually is no fun at all for anyone.

And on this note, can you actually revert Nerf to Telos boltace, but make the wave Exclusive to breaking boxes?

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Ok, "melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects."

What about the enemies who spawn inside these walls or under the ground? What about the scaling problem with armor in our game? Cause there are some crazy stuff going on, and spinning was one of the ways to deal with it, just like banshee, or ember.

But I like the way that Warframe is going, it's like DE is making the players play with skill, not with builds. BUT, there is no way we can make it right now, at 100+ lvls, without any kind of buff (like Rhino's Roar, Banshee's Sonar, etc.) the game is almost impossible to play, anything can 1shot you. Even 600+ energy with "Quick Thinking" couldn't save me from a Scorpion's melee (sortie 3 defense, enemies with +puncture).

Soo, can we get some tipe of better surround audio? Maybe a grenade maker on the screen, cause Warframe is a mess, there is too many things going on, and that's fun, but getting 1shoted to any sneeze is really frustrating. I believe the game needs some tools to make this endgame more viable, like, the problem is not getting 1shoted, the problem is getting 1shoted everytime by something that I don't know what it is.

BTW, can u make something about that Operator from the Defense missions? The moment that I revived him, he just died 2s after, like some 5s of immortality or something. And can our sentinels get some invulnerability, like our warframes when we are in Operator mode? Cause the enemies just focus, stray down to my poor carrier who can't survive 1min without getting some bullets on the face, I need to park my warframe at somewhere safe to pull my Operator, and this "isn't fun either".

Thanks for readding my little rant, but there is somethings that could make our game even better.

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I really hope that the combo counter not affecting normal melee attacks will receive some compensation ,what will happen to Naramon's Power spike?, if combo won't affect normal attacks this focus passive will lose utility, even more considering charge attacks will drain all the combo counter, how will mods like blood rush, weeping wounds and gladiator set work? (btw i really hope some stances will receive some buffs or new attacks) There are only some charged attacks that can force a status proc, if combo counter will only apply to charged attacks i hope more weapons have forced procs (as far i know Only Scythes, Rapiers and Glaive prime can force a slash proc, maybe Sarpa also forces slash and impact on charged shot but i haven't tested it yet)

So far i'm very Doubtful about the melee combo not applying to normal attacks, i know melees were only able to sustain a 3s melee combo before the shadow debt event (which basically was only enough to deal high damage to a single enemy and then move on to the next one trying to kill it with the combo at 0 again, unless those were a group of enemies, typically infested) and tbh i'm not sure if melee weapons will be able to be effective in high level sorties without combo affecting normal attacks.

The aerial attacks changes seem cool, but as a player i've almost never used them because those attacks usually result with the warframe being locked in place until the animation finishes, sure slam attacks can knockdown enemies but only those who are close to the area of effect, you didn't knockdown an Orokin crewman or a Napalm or some similar high priority enemy? it would be so sad to be locked in place and being one shot by that strun, even when you have a R3 arcane guardian, primed flow and Quick thinking two shots from that strun are enough to kill you or be close to when the enemies are about level 80 - 100 and even less level when its a T4 mission, a.k.a. missions where corrupter vor can appear.

anyone remembers wall attacks? lol.

But obviously when you think about melees Rework only with the information they gave to us in this post can make it seem worse than it actually could be, we don't know until the melee rework is finally ready for us to play the update.

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6 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

Make Wall Attacks Useful, Please. I have tried my hardest to use these in combat and despite my best efforts they just aren't.  Simply allow them to travel in the direction a player is aiming, removing the end roll animation, with a massive buff to speed and distance traveled and viola! #wallAttacksSaved.

I say scrap Wall Attacks. Completely. 

Toss them out.

They're a pain to set up, have very short range, and they're extremely situational. It's far easier and less time consuming to just sneak up / drop down behind an enemy and just...you know...click X to stealth kill.

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Welp, melee weapons are dead. The only thing that made melee good on long fights was the combo counter, and now that's going away. Like, it doesn't matter if they buff the base damage, that buff will be useless by minute 15 of survival.

 

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I've written a post over on reddit detailing my concerns over 'normalising' combos and the potential impact on accessibility:

http://reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/8isu8u/accessibility_suggested_alternative_to_button/

In short, not all of us can button mash, so please bear that in mind when reworking combos. More stances having tap & hold combos like Shimmering Blight (polearms) would not only be fun & satisfying, it would also help disabled / injured players like me. 

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Will stealth attacks and kills be reworked as well? I'd like it if it was a bit easier to execute and if we could chain it (a bit like in Shadow of Mordor)

 

Plus a suggestion: Instead of removing channeling outright, do combine it with block, but instead of using up Warframe energy, make it use up Operator energy and remove all Energy cost penalty from all channeling.

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I was thinking to post a melee rework inciciative on reddit, very glad to see DE is taking care of it now ^_^

But i still have some things in mind:

  • Some of the kinesthetic with melee combat are really awful, you can introduce something like hitlag or anything else to make it feel less like you are just puting numbers into an enemy until it explodes
  • Most of the weapons are very similar on the matter above maybe making an axe diffrent from a sword can be difficult with the actual system but i'm sure you guys at least can take it into consideration
  • Melee builds are very alike on most of the weapons
  • That of course bring us to one of the main problems in warframe: Too many non-replaceble mods, things like [Pressure Point] just as the most common example or [Blood rush] that can even be a focus hability just make harder to really customize our build wich i'm sure was the main propuse of mods
  • ¿What makes each weapon type unique instead of a different bunch of stat numbers than the other weapons?

And of course this rework will be a nerf to whips and other insane range blenders, I'm ok with that even having [Secura Lecta] as my most used melee i accept this change if it will replace it with something better (at least something less boring)

But we know that the main reason players use whips is that they offer Insane damage at a very good range without slowing you down or even stop you to make any combo,

those kind of benefits sounds like something that  should be on every melee weapon or at least something similar.

 

Back on the showed footage i thought that you should let Nier: Automata be a reference for this rework because it fits more with the horde type of enemies that we encounter

Something like:

  • A faster way to approach enemy to enemy, not saying that it has to be some kind of teleportation between just something to speed things up will be nice for kinesthetic and overall feel of the game
  • Taking advantage of warframes high ground movement speed
  • Making the heavy attacks relay on combo counter can make most of the players don't use them often, maybe letting them be a combo related mechanic apart from that can give them better use (Example: Many hack&slash games make the combos from the weak and heavy attacks that you use)
  • Smart usage of heavy and normal attacks rewards an experienced player
  • We are fighting terribly armored clones, ferocious and fast beasts and a cult of merchant tech fanatics with a robot army, a way of dodging some of the basic attacks or better usage of the blocking bullets is essential
  • Finishers: this is something extra i was just thinking that making the player enter an invulnerability zone while performing a uncutable animation doesn't seem to fit with this whole new style

Either way i couldn't be more proud of you as a developer team always be looking a way to improve your game, needless to say that more game companies should be like you

and even if you don't like my proposal for any reason i will still be happy with the rework, the main reason (and probably the reason behind this whole topic) is to make shure that your work wont be for nothing

Thanks for your time

(PS: apologies for the bad writing skills)

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11 minutes ago, Silver-Priest said:

Okay, we all know, that you, developers, don't play your own game much. This is why you constantly bothered by "killing enemies you don't see" that was never a problem in the first place, since people almost completely abandoned Berehinya with Sanctuary Onslaught release. This shows that all your problems with loot-caves is not the fault of frames or weapons, but gameplay bottlenecks, that force players to perform mind-numbing repetitive behavior.

so its not a problem when billy takes his atterax finds a corner and activates his macro to play the game for him so he kills everything in a oh idk 60-70 meter range so he can then alt tab or use a second monitor to do what ever else he wanted to do and not actually play the game and make it less important then cookie clicker this isnt a problem? :clem: logic :clem:

 

11 minutes ago, Silver-Priest said:

But there is a bigger problem looming with upcoming change - We need to be able to break boxes through walls. Destroying millions of boxes individually is no fun at all for anyone.

aoe weapons, carrier has a mod specifically for shooting crates, you dont NEED to break boxs though walls You just WANT to break stuff though walls hell half the time you dont even need to break boxes unless your that desperate for ammo or what ever would be in them 

12 minutes ago, Silver-Priest said:

And on this note, can you actually revert Nerf to Telos boltace, but make the wave Exclusive to breaking boxes?

so make a weapon people dont really use anymore since you cant ayylamo kill everything around you anymore to break boxs? mate that is just taking a weapon that been kicked down and just stabbing it in the head. Really? Im personally kinda baffled 

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Just now, AbstractLemons said:

Im excited for these changes but am greatly concerned on how bloodrush will work since that mid is basically must have for crit heavy build weapons scaling into high levels.

Other than that im mostly optimistic about these changes.

I am not optimistic about manually breaking every single box in the game.

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1 minute ago, AbstractLemons said:

Im excited for these changes but am greatly concerned on how bloodrush will work since that mid is basically must have for crit heavy build weapons scaling into high levels.

Other than that im mostly optimistic about these changes.

as long as you dont burn your combo on a heavy attack should behave all the same it does now 

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I'm very excited about the new changes, but I just want to share my thoughts on it.

  • I love what you're trying to do with the heavy vs quick attack, but I think you should reconsider your idea of spending combo points on heavy attacks. All attacks should benefit from the combo counter, but heavy attacks should just benefit more, and please let us keep our combo counter up regardless of what attack we do. In an actual battle, we will be constantly using both attacks, so I think it would feel very awkward if our combo counter keeps resetting every time we do a heavy attack.
  • However, I think blocking is a perfect place to spend our combo points, but I still think it shouldn't take away the combo counter. I'm not completely sure what you guys mean by "points" but I think it should be a separate meter that builds and maybe builds faster based on your current combo multiplier. When you block, it should add a multiplier to reflected damage and it should be significant damage. I'm talking about hallway clearing damage at any level, because it should naturally scale with enemy level. I just think it should feel a lot more like a Genji Deflect. This could also be a cool way to let us properly use melee in huge boss fights. Imagine reflecting damage at an Eidolon joint for example. 
  • The directional slam attacks are such a good idea, but PLEASE just allow us to use a separate keybind for them if we want. It's already really annoying when you're playing Zephyr on the plains and the game thinks I'm aiming too far down when I just want to hit a Grineer ship or Dargyn. I usually just go make a sandwich while I wait for Zephyr to finally finish her attack. Seriously tho, accidental slam attacks are one of the worst things in Warframe. I imagine this will be even worse once they're directional. 
  • Speaking of directional. Please allow us to aim our melee up/down. It would be huge for Warframe considering the verticality.

 

Anyways, thanks or reading. ☺️

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1 minute ago, seprent said:

aoe weapons, carrier has a mod specifically for shooting crates,

Kavats exist, and this mod is useless.

 

 

1 minute ago, seprent said:

so its not a problem when billy takes his atterax finds a corner and activates his macro to play the game for him so he kills everything in a oh idk 60-70 meter range so he can then alt tab or use a second monitor to do what ever else he wanted

Nice strawman.

 

1 minute ago, seprent said:

so make a weapon people dont really use anymore since you cant ayylamo kill everything around you anymore to break boxs? mate that is just taking a weapon that been kicked down and just stabbing it in the head. Really? Im personally kinda baffled  

Be baffled somewhere else.

 

 

 

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Comber multiplier wil only work on heavy attack?

absolute BS,this is a horde game if combo multiplier will not work on light attack blood rush,body count and any combo mods will be mediocore AF

spending ALL  your combo counter on  1 attack?

DE WTH

 

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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

  • We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.

I'm loving what I've seen/heard so far, but I would like to offer a suggestion. If you want channeling to be cool, make blocking/reflecting capable of dealing a lot of damage. We've seen what Genji can do in Overwatch. I would love to see something similar in Warframe. 

 

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.

Here's an idea: remove the delay on slam attacks. When you fall from a height and do a slam attack, the attack should land WHEN you hit the ground. At the moment, you land, then you bring your weapon down, and that delay is awkward.

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Just makes me wonder why they don't find solutions to the problem mods like maiming strike + blood rush instead of revamping melee like this. I mean, I find the current melee smooth and playable, this new systems looks like it will be much more complicated. ie. adding another melee button to the mix. Ugh. Anyways, I guess we will have to see how things play out. I really hope melee doesnt become worthless in higher levels.

Last thought, will we ever see directional melee? ie. where ever my aim reticle is at, that's the plane it will slice. This way, I can hit those mobs in the air or below the knees which is super hard to do atm.

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