Melee: Present and Future goals!

[Casardis]

Blocking

How about making Blocking like it currently is (maybe buffed a bit), and TIMED blocking doing like channeled blocking currently does, without energy drain? You can make it so that, after a timed block, you get a short buff where all incoming blocks for the next 2-3 second get their damage mitigated by 100% and is reflected back (similar to Exalted Blade's passive). During the buff, you can keep doing timed blocks to refresh the buff, similar to Dual Toxocyst's headshot buff.

1- This allows both system of block to still coexist
2- It promotes the usage of reflexes, and rewards the players for doing so.
3- You can make the Reflex Guard mod increase the time of the buff AND give more leeways for the timed block, so it's easier to time it.

 

Channeling

Perhaps you can make well-timed combo strings (as opposed to mashing) reward players by making the next attack a channel (no energy cost since it's a reward)? This can allow you to play with unique weapon effects, like Sibear will get its increased status chance when doing so. 

[seprent]

1 minute ago, Silver-Priest said:

1 Kavats exist, and this mod is useless.

2 Nice strawman.

3 Be baffled somewhere else.

1 you can still spin to break all the crates you can see just not through walls 

2 not really when its something people actually do in the game to basically do zero effort yet farm all the stuff they want its a problem if you see it as one or not doesn't matter 

3 Nah ill be baffled where ever i damn well want just to see people be salty or grasp at straws to maintain hitting stuff though walls becuase its funny and entertaining 

[DsR_Warrior]

DE what about the venka prime??

[seprent]

Just now, DsR_Warrior said:

DE what about the venka prime??

even faster combo building? 

[Olianu]

Question to DE, if it hasn't been addressed already:  will this include looking over the stances of the exalted weapons as well and how they will interact with the new system?

[seprent]

10 minutes ago, ArchangelusAlpharius said:

Plain and simple:

STOP NERFING US AT HIGH TEIRS

SOME OF US HAVE SUNK ENOUGH TIME INTO THIS GAME TO FIND THAT WE ENJOY FIGHTING HIGH LEVEL, AND I MEAN LV 1K+ ENEMIES, NOT THIS NANSY PANSY LV 100 BULLS#&$ YOU SEEM TO WANT TO GEAR THE GAME TO.

because that is what they normally do it around they dont make stuff around level 1000 bombards sorry to break it to you but there is no need to shout 

[TANTO_17]

So exited to use the variety of weapons at our disposal once again. Not just the biggest range ones. (Yes I have little self control when something is as effective and brainless as it currently is). 

As some people have pointed out I think adding variety to the combo meter should be encouraged however repetition should not be punished. For example, an increase in combo count could be rewarded if you shoot an enemy and then melee it or preform an aerial smash then an input combo but just spamming a combo should not incur punishment as it is the baseline for increasing combo count. 

Love the idea of the rework. I'm not worried about mods...make a good base system then worry about fixing mods. I will be patient :)

[chainchompguy3]

My prayers have been answered!

 

Better aerial control/slam attacks aren't face-plants!

^Can potentially use for better hitting headshots / boss weakpoints!

the 2 mechanics I thought shouldn't take up buttons, Channeling and blocking, are now sharing one button to take up less space!

LIGHT / HEAVY ATTACKS!!!

Stances, as I can see so far from sample videos, are much, much more "get to the good stuff" and Utilitarian!

 

I'm more hyped than TWW + Archwing combined! _{(Though, to be fair, I wasn't too hyped about those...)}

[Teridax68]

This looks phenomenal. Best of luck with the upcoming overhaul! As a player who prefers melee, but who's also wanted to see it updated and streamlined for quite some time, I very much look forward to seeing how these changes turn out.

Regarding reorganizing comboes and inputs, have you considered also rolling in charged attacks for a quick/heavy attack separation? For example, normal attacks would be quick, and would lead to one type of combo, but attacking while blocking would initiate slower, but more powerful attacks, and lead towards a different combo. If either combo had three moves each, and each attack switched to the next "stage" of the combo, i.e. a constant 1-2-3, it could potentially create a much greater and more flowing variety of moves, one the player could have much more control over.

While this may be a bit early to ask, what is the team's thought on stances? Personally, my issue with stance mods is that they tend to homogenize melee weapons, because picking one stance mod across multiple different weapons tends to make them all play the same. It tends to make most weapons essentially just stat sticks, whose true gameplay comes from whichever stance mod you equip, which also makes choosing between most of them a matter of comparing stats, and only rarely more unique gameplay effects. While it could take a very long amount of time, giving each weapon its own innate stance, and rebalancing mod drains accordingly, could make each weapon truly stand out, and worth mastering on its own.

[KingTaltia]

I seem to be the ONLY person who thinks this, but PLEASE DON'T make Blocking take energy, I like blocking, I like taking reduced damage, I have ENOUGH energy problems as is. I don't need for this system to remove spin-to-win only for that strain on the wrist being shoved on me as the only form of damage reduction I have being dodgerolling EVERY second.

Otherwise: A+ hope this turns out well.

[Shifted]

Thank you for finally taking a look at melee. Looks exciting.

The only thing I dislike about the proposed changes is the loss of combo on quick attacks.

If you proceed with that, please make equipping and un-equipping melee faster.
I want to be able to quickly switch to a gun and shoot that guy over there before going back to chopping.

[GrimMyfanwy]

I normally refrain from posting in dev workshops because I tust you guys to know whats best for the game, but this presentation has left some very grave concerns for me, especially about the combo counter and combo system. But also I feel it's a bit unfair considering how vague it is. It's like you are asking for our opinion on a picture that you have made, but will only show us a few square inches of. How can we respond to just "significant," "more quickly," and "easier" if we don't know how significant, quickly, or easier the things will be. 

• First: 

  Quote

   Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

  The problem with this is you have also stated that heavy attacks will be used in the new stance combo system, so by this logic, you will never get more than a minor bonus from your combo counter while having a stance equipted, since you will completely deplete the counter on every stance combo that has a heavy attack in it. Will the damage of stances be significantly boosted as well? Otherwise, it seems that this change would promote an even less varied style of play as players just spam light attacks to buid of for a big hit when needed.
   

• Speaking spamming attacks, what happens to Blood Rush (and to a lesser extent Weeping Wounds)? Again, if you are going to only make heavy attacks benefit from the combo counter, and completely reset it when they do, it will force players who use these mods, and something tells me Blood Rush has some heavy usage, to just spam their light attacks to maintain the much more beneficial bonus from these mods. And if these mods are going to be changed, are they going to maintain the same level of power. You specifically made Blood Rush cost more than any other melee mod at the time it was released to show it's level of power, causing many players to spend many forma to fit it on their favorite weapons. I'm, one of them, and if you make it completely irrelavant from the change to melle, I for one, will be very upset.

• Then there's: 

  Quote

  While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.

  Of the two, channeling damage was way more useful than channeling block. And if all blocking is channeling blocking, what's the point of weapons that are better suited to blocking, like one handed and shields, versus those that aren't, like daggers. Do they all have 100% block now? If so, then what's the point other than cosmetic in melee weapons. Or will channeled block no longer stop 100% of the damage, in which case you are taking away a valuable tool, that, to the experience player, is very useful.

• Again, what happens to channeling mods, for some, Life Strike is their main form of survivability

Now these are concerns and I hope they are addressed, but I feel I would be remiss if I didn't offer at least some suggestions which would use the framework laid out.

• First don't change the combo counter system at this point, just do the other changes. If that isn't viable, which I somehow feel would be the case, then don't have heavy attacks completely deplete the counter. Instead, have it drop the multiplier by a level, or by a set amount of hits.
• Not using the changes outlined, but my suggestion from scratch would be have the combo counter tied into the combos of the stance, so that successfully completing a combo advances the counter, rather than just spamming light attacks. 
• Change channeling from a toggle state to a timed buff, accessed by using a combination of existing buttons with an energy cost to cast (modified by channelling mods), like a base 10 energy for 10 seconds, enough to top off with Life Strike or block the alpha strike while entering a room full of bombards, have the duration affected by mods as well, such as reworking little used mods like Quickening, or by having mods with positive efficency add to the duration while negative efficency mods add to the cost (e.g. Reflex Coil would add 6 seconds to the duration, but lifestrike would make activating it cost 24 energy instead of 10)

In closing, I want to say while I don't agree with the changes you have outlined as they are shown (again with the too little information), I do appreciate all the work everyone at DE does. I wouldn't play the game if I didn't, so thank you.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

36 minutes ago, ZoeSoft said:

Welp, melee weapons are dead. The only thing that made melee good on long fights was the combo counter, and now that's going away. Like, it doesn't matter if they buff the base damage, that buff will be useless by minute 15 of survival.

 

This is why I am imploring DE to keep what we love and what’s effective and bring other/new aspects up to par rather than eliminate and nerf what brings joy.

[Deidaku]

Finally  separate heavy attacks!

Idea,  some kind of dash mechanic to lock on ennemies and   get closer  fast  could  be usefuuseful  right? 

And  about  aerial  attacks;  hitting  an enemy  with one  should  allow  us  To perform a mini combo  on  them  ,1  or 2 extra  quick  hits  depending  of the weapon type 

[Iv99an19]

Able to wield any one handed melee with a secondary and rolling cancels melee attack. I recall at some point devs mentioning something about wanting to get a combat feeling similar to that of DMG and GoW, this, especially the latter portion, is a bit step in the right direction, adding more fluidity to the flow of combat.

One suggestion to add further to this fluidity/flow is a tweak to the dark split sword and the possibility of adding more weapons of this kind to the game, adding a second stance slot for access to both sword types and using the secondary fire button to swap between both forms. At present the dark split sword is very underused and horribly underwhelming, but if this function were added to the game alongside some buffs players would start using it more and would like to have more of weapons of this type added to the game simply because of it's unique mechanic and the cool factor of swapping between two attack styles on the fly

I also share the same concern with most here about the removal of damage scaling with combo counter. A massive damage boost is going to be needed to compensate for this, I am really hoping the saryn test is also secretly a test bed for player damage scaling for damage 2.5/3.0, as it stands even if the buffs and channeling changes are amazing, melee weapons will become completely useless in the late game with a lack of proper scaling.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

43 minutes ago, MonkeyWaffles said:

Will stealth attacks and kills be reworked as well? I'd like it if it was a bit easier to execute and if we could chain it (a bit like in Shadow of Mordor)

 

Plus a suggestion: Instead of removing channeling outright, do combine it with block, but instead of using up Warframe energy, make it use up Operator energy and remove all Energy cost penalty from all channeling.

And for all that is sacred, speed up Finishers!  Please?

[Tarak]

Okay, so I, like many, have concerns.

I was excited about the melee rework up until I heard mention of the combo counter in relation to heavy attacks. Reading here how you plan to have that work just tells me that combo mods are going to be even less useful than channeling mods are now.

Instead, how about we leave the combo counter as it is now, but we change channeling mods into charge attack mods, and have charge attacks spend hits from the combo counter with the charge attack mods increasing or decreasing that cost?

As a side note, what about the timer on the combo counter and its interplay with Naramon? This will effectively reduce the Naramon school to being effectively useless again. Looks like it's back to Madurai/Zenurik again.

[XzWasPzX]

Those of you who feel  happy with the changes... you dont play melee often, right? 😟

[Lucidess]

Not convinced Maiming Strike is being changed for one reason: 0 Sources.

Can you find the text where DE Rebecca is specifically saying "Maiming strike is getting nerfed"? Prove it.

inb4 bunch of reasons why its getting "nerfed" but never the actual stat "crit on spin attack". You do realize this same stat is on rivens right? Be more specific please.

Personally I'd really appreciate it if you removed wall attacks from the game, they are useless, please rework or remove them.

[nokturnihs]

I need to just say this:

Removing the combo counter from all melee attacks is a terrible idea. 

I am a disabled individual with coordination issues. I can't shoot worth a damn. I can't parkour worth a damn. I can melee well. I don't use or have maiming strike and don't have the coordination to use spin to win mechanics. I HAVE TO USE a controller to play this game with my limited function of my hands. 

If you destroy the ONE THING I can do well in this game, I will be pissed. I will be unable to play this game and have fun. I am also a serious investor in this game, contributing over a thousand dollars in this game in the 230 days I've played it. This is because I can and because I liked the game. The developers have lately however shaken my trust and faith in them due to a string of poor decisions and failures to address problems with simple solutions. I am a developer myself and I see a lot of push for monetization-minded choices. But this game wouldn't be where it is without it being fun. Taking that away is going to cost you a lot more. Stop taking away what people can do and think of what you can do to improve the experience by additive engagement. I realize that this adds more for you to maintain as codebase, but the investment adds significant longevity to your product. 

[Snake]

5 minutes ago, Hunt3rK11l3r said:

I also share the same concern with most here about the removal of damage scaling with combo counter. A massive damage boost is going to be needed to compensate for this, I am really hoping the saryn test is also secretly a test bed for player damage scaling for damage 2.5/3.0, as it stands even if the buffs and channeling changes are amazing, melee weapons will become completely useless in the late game with a lack of proper scaling.

Agreed

If it does not scale or becomes some great chore to scale - Late game melee will be just as useless as primary and secondary weapons are.

My fear is DE's objective for players is just - get every weapon/warframe in the game, play all the missions/quests till your board, spend some money and leave.

I mean, What have I been building for this whole time? Give me a reason for Building - Don't take way my tools or hide them from me.

[SgtJoe426]

1 minute ago, 5nak3Doctor said:

Agreed

If it does not scale or becomes some great chore to scale - Late game melee will be just as useless as primary and secondary weapons are.

My fear is DE's objective for players is just - get every weapon/warframe in the game, play all the missions/quests till your board, spend some money and leave.

I mean, What have I been building for this whole time? Give me a reason for Building - Don't take way my tools or hide them from me.

Exactly, the one thing that I'm not liking in these proposed changes is the lack of scalability. I love the rest of the ideas. (well, I don't LOVE the spin to win nerf, but I can live with it).

[GreyDeath789]

Melee through walls, etc. is bad. But given some of the super annoying things on some tilesets (those hanging infested things on some tilesets) and the narrow areas in others...will melee still work in a space that clearly isn't designed to realistically let you use a polearm (Orthos) or a great sword (War?)? Or is it going to be dagger melee FTW moving forward?

Also, stances...any stance that has annoying pause animations are mostly worthless to me...it impacts which melee weapons I use simply because the animation breaks the flow of melee. Doing a fancy combo and you stop with your sword pointing forward as you kill a mob and are standing there for a second or 2 before you can continue attacking other mobs is just annoying. Hopefully, the stops in animation will be fixed with these changes.

And changing spin to win is fine but you gave us increased damage from spin, leap, and wall attacks. Spin to win through walls...sure fix it...just don't break melee spin attacks because it is used effectively.,,leave it alone.

As for the upcoming (rumor?) Maiming Strike nerf....is it going to destroy the usefulness of that mod like the changes to Telos Boltace made that weapon useless to most people? In fact, I have changed some builds to use Blood Rush instead of Maiming Strike to prepare for the pending nerf.  But with the new melee changes to combo stacks...what impact will combos for heavy attacks have to Blood Rush? or Weeping Wounds for that matter?

And light vs heavy attacks makes it sound more and more like Street Fighter, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Marvel vs Capcom, etc. Not sure I want to play those games as a space ninja...will have to wait and see how the two types of attacks work.

[seprent]

10 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

Those of you who feel  happy with the changes... you dont play melee often, right? 😟

i use it alot and im fine with it and willing to experiment with the stuff when it comes out i also use a shot gun 

[NightmareT12]

7 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

Before I begin with Warframe's combat system, I'd like to briefly talk about Devil May Cry's combat system.  Without going into too much detail the player does not have to choose between 'firearm mode' or 'melee mode' as a Tenno does. The player has access to all their moves from a default 'stance'.  It also has a unified combo system.  Meaning that regardless of the weapon a DMC player has the combos they learned for their first weapon works on any subsequent weapon they acquire.

While there is a lot more to DMC's combat than that, Capcom's approach has created a combat system that is near peerless in its execution.

Warframe is a different game on many levels so a straight copy and paste into Warframe wouldn't work well as any of us would hope.  However, there are 4 things Warframe can import from DMC that would work wonders: 

• The elimination of 'firearm mode' and 'melee mode'.   
• The implementation of universal combos.
• An emphasis on aerial combat 
• A combo counter that rewards variety over repetition. 

How It Would Work

Quick Melee Is the Gateway to All Combos. Any combo a stance grants can be executed with the quick melee button.  However, considering Berserker and Fury are a thing, the commands to execute said combos need to account for this.

Combos Have Universal Inputs. Once a new player learns the combos for their MK-1 Bo or Skana, they now know how to execute all combos Warframe will throw at them.

• At Least Two Types of Combos Per Stance. An AoE focused one (because Warframe is a horde game) and a single target focused one.  Without a stance a weapon still has a combo string.  This string is still accessible once a stance is equipped.

Aerial Combat. As it stands if a Tenno executes an aerial attack they can not attack again for 1-2 seconds and I have no idea why.  If players could launch enemies into the air and pursue them with flurries of aerial attacks, I would wager a lot of Tenno would find that fun and useful.

• Make Wall Attacks Useful, Please. I have tried my hardest to use these in combat and despite my best efforts they just aren't.  Simply allow them to travel in the direction a player is aiming, removing the end roll animation, with a massive buff to speed and distance traveled and viola! #wallAttacksSaved.
• Not all Down Attacks Should Be Slam Attacks. A Tenno's option while in the air is either to do an attack that prevents them from attacking for 1-2 seconds, period or a slam attack.  Slam attacks make sense for the Fragor but what about a Ceramic Dagger? Sometimes I'd rather just do a downwards aiming non slam attack from the air as I dart around like... a ninja.

Combo Meter Skews Towards Variety, Not Repetition. Reward players more who don't do the same exact attack over and over and over.  1 hit should always add something to the combo counter.  But reward the player more who has explored the depths of what Warframe's combat system has to offer and uses the full bag of tricks at his or her disposal regularly.

Channeling Becomes a Universal Buff Mode. Available at the execution of a single command (single key or multi key press), the Warframe surges with void power. A warframe's parkour, firearms, melee, blocks, archwing, operator, and abilities are all buffed in some way.  Adjust the energy economy to be proportionate to the buff granted. The reason channeling isn't in widespread use is because by time the average player switches to melee mode to use it, Mr. xXSpin2WinYOLOXx just cleared half the room. Even when a Tenno goes through the trouble, the payoff is hardly worth it. It's as the old saying goes: if you can't beat them, join them. Remove the melee mode requirement for channeling, make the buff worthwhile and it will see a massive upswing in use.

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block and they... block.  No switching to a dedicated melee mode to do so.  Blocking should also cancel most actions into a block because the 'oh crap I'm about to die' situation is why blocking should be a thing.

Charged Attacks. Take inspiration from Ninja Gaiden.  If charged attacks evoke a sense of power and unleash a massively amped up attack, I'd wager Tenno would use them.  Especially in solo.  However give Tenno the option between consuming some of the combo counter - all of the combo counter.  There's no need for a separate key for heavy attacks when holding in one key can accomplish the same thing. Just make the damage scale to the time held in instead of 'must hold in for x seconds or bust'.

Roll Cancelling.  Quite simply, I'm very happy to see this in the OP. Go the extra step and allow us to cancel our rolls by hitting roll again. Give roll cancelling a cooldown period equivalent to the duration of a roll to prevent abuse.

I feel if the above suggestions were followed not only would it be of a lesser scope than what DE has planned but it would be a more accessible system overall that gives rise to depth built on the backs of proven legends such as Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden. 

The biggest problem still remains though: DE could create the most exquisite combat system known to man BUT the enemies in Warframe are dumb as #*!%.  Fodder.  Trash mobs.  And Warframe gears Tenno with the Infinity Gauntlet to steal candy from a baby.  But that's a whole other day, a whole other story.

tl;dr: give 'melee mode' a quick fire option, remove the cooldown for aerial attacks, make wall attacks worth it, gradient charged attacks > separate key for heavy attacks, reward varied combos more than repetitive ones, channeling should buff everything about a warframe/archwing/operator.

Update: @GrayArchon brought up in a subsequent post that while all this may be nice, console Tenno have very limited real estate when it comes to controller mappings and I responded with this:

Hey that's a very valid question as I'm well aware that Warframe is limited by the mappings console players have.  Here is a sampling of mappings Console players could utilize:

• The elimination of the command required to go into 'melee mode' frees up a mapping.
• Left Stick Press + Right Stick Press
• Left Bumper Press + Left Bumper Press
• Melee + Aim
• Melee + Left Stick Press
• etc

It's no more complex than the advanced mappings available in proven games like Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden.  Especially for high end gameplay in those games where move cancelling requires one's had to mutate into an octopus.

 

I wanted to take a moment to reflect on this: I play on controller, I am an avid fan of both fighting games and hack and slashes, but I need to note this now: You're taking a wrong premise in all this. Warframe is a fast paced shooter game at its core. You can't remove the Triangle/Y/F button mapping in any way for two things:

• Tried a similar system to GoW, making my D-pad arrows switch weapons. That stops movement because you take off the thumb from the stick.
  GoW allows you to block while doing it, DMC has you use the triggers to switch weapons (and let's remember this is first and foremost a shooter) and Ninja Gaiden PAUSES while you do switch weapons. We're on a multiplayer game. There's already enough compromises with Reload and Context being bound together and haveing to use a Power Menu.
• We used to have the game working like that, before U13. I assure you with absolute confidence it wasn't good, hence why DE catered to being able to use Melee as a standalone option -- but never forgetting we play a shooter with power avatars. That's exactly the goal here, and that's something to be kept in mind -- no one will sacrifice using a rifle or pistol or make them behave like in a game that's vastly different. Trying to suggest otherwise is giving a flawed argument from the basis. It would also be a complete step back. As someone that's played in the older days, before Bulletjump was a thing and you only had to sprint, I can assure you.

Warframe can never be like that unless you completely sacrifice the shooter aspect of the game. Which it won't.