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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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On 2018-05-11 at 3:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

...

  • Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

...

  • Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

...

I see some positive changes, but see many potential negatives...

RE: "Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects."

     --I agree with the idea that players should not be able to perform cheesy tactics like spinning into a wall, but here is one important point:  Melee is already significantly disadvantaged by the necessity to "close the gap" before you can do any damage.  This is why 2-handers, whips, range mods, and spinning attacks are so popular (even without maiming strike).  Hopefully you do not relegate melee back to utter pointlessness by removing all of its small area clearing advantage.  Maybe a mod that would still allow melee to go through walls?  Since guns/explosives offer an identical feature, some innately..  I'm not advocating for the continuation of corner spinning into walls.. just cautioning against making it too difficult to realistically use melee... because there are many areas of the game that are not large empty rooms devoid of any boxes or objects like in your videos...  Don't turn melee into an inefficient combat form that is "just for the challenge."

 

RE: "Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

     --Are you really going to completely nerf Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds by breaking the way the combo counter works?  That's taking it a bit too far, in my opinion... Any real crit weapon build essentially NEEDS blood rush to hit effective damage levels..  Or is it your intention to make it so melee can no longer reach red crits etc?  Even when players build and mod weapons specifically for it?  Is it okay for the innumerable firearms to one-shot things, through walls and doors from hundreds of meters away, but a melee weapon doing the same from 10 meters away must be fixed?  

     So many of these changes look on paper like you guys are nerfing all of the popular melee acolyte mods, but doing it in an indirect way by breaking the mechanics they depend on..ie combo counter..so at the end of the day you can try to evade the rage of players who spent hundreds of plat or countless hours to acquire these mods..

 

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23 minutes ago, Irisena said:

what? excuse me, either i'm dumb or am i missing something? I heard that DE WANTS to ramp up the combo counter so we can get that sweet, sweet 3x damage easier, BUT they want to "readjust" (which i believe will be a huge nerf) the combo multiplier mods like blood rush, etc.

On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

So no damage multiplier on normal attack. Thats what I meant and thats what Rebecca posted. Maybe I was unclear.

Edited by Xardis

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Essentially you are just nerfing melee so that end game becomes more difficult to beat since melee was usually the go to for super high levels.  Reworking and out right nerfing are two different things.  The spin to win meta is fine to be removed and channeling becoming relevant would be a good sight finally.  Making combo counter not boost your weapons damage is just a bad move.  Unless this rework makes all melee weapons crazy strong the melee combo nerf is going to be a huge mistake and step in the wrong direction.

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3 minutes ago, ScottZi115 said:

... the melee combo nerf is going to be a huge mistake and step in the wrong direction.

It's just their thinly veiled way of finally nerfing the melee accolyte mods... very thinly veiled..because nobody has a problem with how the combo counter works... 

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Rip spin2win, sure the attack tru walls should go, it made no sense in the 1st place

But the combo counter no working with basic attacks, F to that, why would i spend time clicking a extra bottom (hello macros, how you doing?) for channeling for more dmg or learn to do a stance right for it to do no dmg or miss the enemies compleatly (because they move away or low aoe range or because the room is already clear up); on that vid in the plains you did, turn on the dmg numbers so we can see how with that rework you did no dmg at all or hit, probably one of all the enemies there.

Since your on a nerfing run there (Banshee, Ember, Wulkong and now melee all togeter) why not nerf octavia scaling dmg on the mallet, banshee's sonar ability, Equinox Main trading, trinity's link ability, Ash's blade storm, Limbo's Cataclysm in combo with stasis, Mesa Peacemaker ability, etc.... oh and lets not forget about the incoming saryn spore dmg scalng ability too, Thank you in advance.

Yeah im with you, lets nerf everying, you know what it would work great, deleting the game all togeder, no more broken things, no more spin2win, no more scalling dmg, prob solve all togeder right?

Edited by --SeekNDstroy--
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Also, I just caught myself opn thought.
I am the guy who boost all my melee for high speed(arcanes included).
So, I actually cant do complicated combos, cuz Im fast as fun, boiii.
And I wonder what will it be with combo remap, or adding whole new button.

 

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So just a small suggestion for the directional melee slam to make it super cool.

Make the damage itself also directional instead of a around the character. The further away you slam from your initial position, the further in that direction the damage will occur. This could go paired with ragdolling enemies in that direction (maybe restricted to heavy weapons only -> would also increase their use) and probably slightly different animations too to really see the difference in damage direction. E.g. doing an uppercut with a heavy weapon against the ground paired with crackling ground in the damage area (and maybe light emitting from it) or with a light weapon some sort of exalted sword trail that is produced in that area.

This could be (1) a lot cooler and (2) would allow for far better positioning after a slam which is my main concern for the directional slam. Landing in the middle of enemies is most of the time not a good idea and would allow to use any other directional skills or could be immediately followed by melee attacks where you have all enemies you were intially targetting still in view.

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13 minutes ago, FataL-Flaw said:

It's just their thinly veiled way of finally nerfing the melee accolyte mods... very thinly veiled..because nobody has a problem with how the combo counter works... 

Or maybe it's simply because the current system, while it certainly works is just very uninteresting and rigid. Constantly having to worry about maintaining an arbitrary counter by hitting something withing X seconds to not fall behind instead of focusing on what should actually be the matter, namely the combat itself. Hit only one button over and over again.

The acolyte mods are still there and they will still be powerful, they will just matter in different ways and degrees, but thus is change. You can still spin around like crazy with maiming strike if you so please, you just can't sit in a corner where enemies can't reach you and do it. Blood rush will still add to your critical chance as it always has, weeping wounds too for status, the only difference there is that you expend your charge to heavy attack, but at the same time you will charge it faster.

Please try being a little open-minded instead of just crying wolf.

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I was watching one warframe’s YouTube partners, and the YouTuber said in melee 3.0 they would like to see single target melee weapons (daggers, fist, etc) attack range increased. 

Now, I too would like to see this happen, but I’d like see it done in more style, and not just by plain old increase the base range. 

Instead, there’s the mod Entropy Detonation add something like this to all single target melee weapons and just increase the stats of the mod. Better yet, code the mod into the weapons so mod space won’t be a problem 

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1 minute ago, Ulvra said:

Or maybe it's simply because the current system, while it certainly works is just very uninteresting and rigid.

I've played melee as my primary form of combat all the damn time and I can tell you, it does not feel like you need to work on the combo. It keeps itself up in fights pretty reliably with a simple drifting contact or body count added, and even without, you can reach 1.5x and start getting the crit benefits very fast.

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So this idea has been kicking around in my head for a while. DE has mentioned that we are getting a cancel for melee attacks in the form of a dodge (which I like and still want), but I would prefer that we get one that has no movement involved with it as well. The idea is that we would be able to hit the reload key (current has no use in stance mode) which would break out of the current attack, and put you in the charging animation. Not only would this allow you to make pseudo combos, but allow you to perform the charge attack faster and maybe have some other bonuses (knockdown resistance, damage reduction, temporary damage boost?) depending on the weapon.

I originally didn't really care to share this idea because I'd rather see DE's solutions, but they recently mentioned they are getting rid of channeling and I thought this idea could be a neat way to reintegrate the effects related to that system. (and finally make use of the blasted reload key :P). 

 

Another idea I have is to change the way attack speed (and mods associated with) work a bit. Currently they affect the entire animation of a weapon: startup, swing, and recovery. On some weapons this is fine, as the attack animation is rather short and the number of animation frames you can do damage with is very well balanced with the recovery and startup. Other weapons that have very short damage frames in proportion to startup and recovery (twirling spire and rapiers are good examples of this) scale poorly with increased attack frames because their attacks become less and less usable the more you try to improve their recovery. Weapons with wide sweeping arcs end up just being converted into AOE killboxes, instead of being slower attacks that you can control by moving your camera to hit more enemies.

My proposal is to break attack speed into 2 components, Attack frames and recovery frames. Much like how melee 1.0 had swing speed and charge speed mods, so that depending on what the player prefers they can adjust the way the weapons work for them. You could keep attack speed boosters like arcanes, volt's speed and valkyr's warcry so that they still affect the whole animation.

Some other micro changes to melee I'd like:

  • make attack animations able to deflect bullets(I want to be able to manually slice bullets man!)
  • add sprinting and double standing finishers
  • reduce recovery time on air attacks (an an additional follow up attack)
Edited by Pie_mastyr

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1 minute ago, Serialkillerwhale said:

I've played melee as my primary form of combat all the damn time and I can tell you, it does not feel like you need to work on the combo. It keeps itself up in fights pretty reliably with a simple drifting contact or body count added, and even without, you can reach 1.5x and start getting the crit benefits very fast.

I play melee myself half if not more of the time, I did not however say that you couldn't keep it up, because unless you're really unlucky with spawns or you just don't think, then it's certainly possible, but my point was more that you have to dedicate your mindspace to maintaining it instead of other potentially fun things, such as a more complex combat system in general.

With the stated buff of damage we might even see the base damage of the weapon rise to the 2x or 2.5x stage to begin with while the combo curve is also stated to be intended to be less drastic in the future. What I read from that is that instead of fighting to maintain your combo forever in the mission, it matters more in the "now". You won't have to worry about keeping it up constantly instead you throw yourself into battle to build it and then unleash it in a "final" strike. Personally I think that sounds like a more fun system than what we have where if I turn an unfortunate corner and nothing had spawned there I just lose every progress I'd made (unless I'm running Naramon, but if anyone things being forced into running a specific focus school for something so tiny is a good thing, then it's not someone I really care to have a discussion with).

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On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

Extra reason to not use Heavy Attacks.

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27 minutes ago, Ulvra said:

Or maybe it's simply because the current system, while it certainly works is just very uninteresting and rigid.

That's a matter of opinion.

Melee still has the stances with different combos that force slash, impact, puncture proc, you've got whips, swords, dual swords, big swords, axes, hammers, staves etc etc.

TBH the "problem" that the developers are talking about could be fixed by capping melee weapon range at say 100%.

As for "heavy attacks" I'll just wait and see, it could be something that is useless or it might make weapons with slam AOE effects into a new meta....

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Just now, Pie_mastyr said:

alternatively they could make range mods additive, so that shorter weapons get the most benefit

Then weapons with good base range would be more toxic than what they are now...

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2 minutes ago, hooperinius said:

That's a matter of opinion.

Melee still has the stances with different combos that force slash, impact, puncture proc, you've got whips, swords, dual swords, big swords, axes, hammers, staves etc etc.

Agreed, the stances certainly adds flavour and some interest into it which is also a point I brought up on previous page, that I really hope they won't forget to preserve that flavour in the new system. No better example than heavy blades where you have heavy chop, crazy whirlwind or practically blade dancing, I don't want to see that go away just to make them "easier to switch between". In essense though the system is still limited to mashing one button and occasionally holding down another button and that's what I meant by "uninteresting and rigid".

I definitely enjoy the melee system or I wouldn't be using it, and I absolutely love my near 200% speed heavy blade grand scythe zaw with tempo royale on it, but at the same time I think the system could be better and more interesting while still preserving that fun.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)damagerate1 said:

Then weapons with good base range would be more toxic than what they are now...

Think of it like this.

If you add 3-5 meters flat to range to a high range weapon it will compare to live values. (is some cases even lower)
If you add 3-5 flat meters to a dagger however then that will be a HUGE improvement over live values.

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I worded that awkwardly, What I mean is it will add a flat number to the range instead of multiplying off the base range. An example would be if there were two weapons; weapon A with 8 m attack range and weapon B with 3. I our current system reach would add (lets arbitrarily say 100% of base range) 8 meters to A making it 16 m and 3 to B making it 6.

My proposal would be to make it so it adds a flat (for example 5 meters) so weapon A would go to 13 meters and weapon B would go to 8.

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2 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Think of it like this.

If you add 3-5 meters flat to range to a high range weapon it will compare to live values. (is some cases even lower)
If you add 3-5 flat meters to a dagger however then that will be a HUGE improvement over live values.

yeah exactly

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DE, 

I think these changes look good on paper but please tread carefully. I do not think removing the scaling damage is a good idea, aside from maiming strike the combo counter damage is key to dealing with high-level enemies. If you take that away then I fear that a majority of weapons won't be viable in "end game" missions. It's convenient that your going increase the base stats of all weapons around the board significantly to compensate for this, it's going to need to be more than you think. I'm worried you're not going to buff the base damage enough to compensate.

20 hours ago, Yurinaga said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack. [Then I'd suggest letting it remain indefinitely until spent; Body Count/Drifting Contact should NOT be as mandatory for heavy attacks as they are now for Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, otherwise new players will still be unnecessarily penalised.]

This is a fantastic idea and should be taken into consideration during these changes.

The heavy attack looks really slow.... not worth it any way shape or form. By the time you swing the weapon level 80+ enemies will kill you. The only way I see the expending the combo counter worth it is to have the attack one shot 80+ eximus enemies, otherwise, there is no point to this. 

The directional slams look cool but only really useful on the plains or in excavation missions. 

As far as maiming strike meta is concerned, thank you for fixing this. I'm getting really tired of timmy the turbine spinning through levels one shotting everything. It honestly takes the fun out of the game when that happens. I get that it's hella efficient but it doesn't make it fun for those who don't have that mod/set up.  

 

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I feel channeling should be a mode that triggers much like how a super state activates in some games : you build up the meter and once it's full, you can use a command or somesuch to enter a powered up mode.

Going with the melee use of channeling and the implementation of heavy attacks in its place, how about that whenever you reach a combo meter tier and execute a heavy attack to expend it, it charges up part of a gauge. Once that gauge is full, the next time you use both light and heavy attack together (melee button + left click on PC), you enter Channelling Trance where all your melee attacks gain a % damage boost as well as making status procs 100%. Mods could either be used to extend the duration of channelling mode, increase the damage buff, increase the meter build speed, etc. Heck, you could unlock a combo that's only useable while in Channelling Trance as an added incentive to use it and that combo could lead into some kind of Super move that ends Channelling Trance altogether while delivering an impressive and powerful technique.

And since it's some kind of super mode that, I think, ressembles the old super move from Operators, why not have it unlocked once you complete the Second Dream Quest? Basically, it would be explained as the Operator supercharging the Warframe when entering a kind of melee trance.

Edited by Wiegraf

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so I adore melee channeling it's basically perfect, the cost is a little too high, that being said I only use channeling mods on my build so...

 

 

my go-to mods for this play style is life strike and killing blow along with Reflex coil 

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2 hours ago, Irisena said:

what? excuse me, either i'm dumb or am i missing something? I heard that DE WANTS to ramp up the combo counter so we can get that sweet, sweet 3x damage easier, BUT they want to "readjust" (which i believe will be a huge nerf) the combo multiplier mods like blood rush, etc.

Here is the post:

On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

It says that the damage from combo counter would be only applied to a heavy attack and it consumes it instantly back to 0.

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