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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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45 minutes ago, Wiegraf said:

I feel channeling should be a mode that triggers much like how a super state activates in some games : you build up the meter and once it's full, you can use a command or somesuch to enter a powered up mode.

Going with the melee use of channeling and the implementation of heavy attacks in its place, how about that whenever you reach a combo meter tier and execute a heavy attack to expend it, it charges up part of a gauge. Once that gauge is full, the next time you use both light and heavy attack together (melee button + left click on PC), you enter Channelling Trance where all your melee attacks gain a % damage boost as well as making status procs 100%. Mods could either be used to extend the duration of channelling mode, increase the damage buff, increase the meter build speed, etc. Heck, you could unlock a combo that's only useable while in Channelling Trance as an added incentive to use it and that combo could lead into some kind of Super move that ends Channelling Trance altogether while delivering an impressive and powerful technique.

And since it's some kind of super mode that, I think, ressembles the old super move from Operators, why not have it unlocked once you complete the Second Dream Quest? Basically, it would be explained as the Operator supercharging the Warframe when entering a kind of melee trance.

That would somewhat match DE Steve's original description or intent for Channeling.

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the root of the AFK-style meta has to do with the arbitrary limit of the "affinity share range"

DE why do you design massive levels and then punish people for even wandering over into the next room? or splitting up to cover more area?

(also the way nekros/hydroid work are #1 issues to this problem)

people don't like having to be confined to such a small space when frames can grow to such great power... it's "not fun".  so they devise afk strategies to get the most efficiency out of it.

plain and simple.

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1 hour ago, Pie_mastyr said:

I worded that awkwardly, What I mean is it will add a flat number to the range instead of multiplying off the base range. An example would be if there were two weapons; weapon A with 8 m attack range and weapon B with 3. I our current system reach would add (lets arbitrarily say 100% of base range) 8 meters to A making it 16 m and 3 to B making it 6.

My proposal would be to make it so it adds a flat (for example 5 meters) so weapon A would go to 13 meters and weapon B would go to 8.

Ok, but the way the attack animation for single target melee weapons are adding won’t be that effective, because area of damage would still be very narrow compared to the wide swipes of other melee weapons. Adding the more or less  circular AOE effect from Entropy Detonation to single target melee weapons will make up for that narrow damage area. 

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"Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack"

 

I don't want to use my only scale-able damage from combo counter on one attack! This is a terrible idea! Makes me sick just thinking about it . Just leave my combo counter alone.

Stop punishing experienced players with Mods for the sake of new players that will play for 2 weeks and quit.

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vor 22 Stunden schrieb o.0-:

Quick Melee keybind evolves be the go-to for Finishers and special actions.

  • such as quick melee is there to stun, counter, parry and finish, regardless of what weapon is out,
  • so could use the Warframe body to throw elbows, shoulders possibly even the equipped weapon without switching weapons.

 

While I dont really get what you mean by counter and parry, I agree with the rest. It should be for getting off an enemy that got to close or to quickly prevent a napalm or bombard from shooting while your reloading. Using your primary or secondary in the animation, so you dont have the advantages of your melee weapon is interesting, but Im not a big fan of it. If by countering or parrying you mean blocking, then no. You should have to switch to full melee mode for that.

vor 23 Stunden schrieb o.0-:

regular Melee is there to damage, kill and block

  • Quick Melee animation gets added to the basic attack animations
  • ability to aim attack angles to what ever allowable degree for targets above and below the warframe.
  • blocking can combine with the other keys to execute more Advanced moves that say would tap into the tracked 'Consecutive Hits' we collect for the Combo Counter.

 

What do you mean by "Quick Melee animation gets added to the basic attack animations"? If you mean having the quick melee combo as your basic light attack combo, then please no. Just think of the single sword quick melee animation. Also, your stance should definately determine all of your combos, including your primary combo.

The ability to aim lower or higher is not bad, but its probably difficult to make look good.

Using blocking to create alternative combos is exactly what we have now, do you mean we should keep it?

vor 23 Stunden schrieb o.0-:

the now freed former channel keybind can be there to execute slams, charges, heavy attacks and dodges, in combination with other keybinds.

  • With updated Melee Combos, it would be pretty cool seeing Combo execution be far more nuanced as to what a player intends for the situation at hand.
  • so this keybind and Block could allow for a Charge, alone it could do a basic Heavy Attack, combined with the Quick Melee could perform advanced dodges and while airborne would execute a Slam or combined with a regular attack
  • I can easily imagine being able to execute Blazing Vortex when I want when I see a dense group of enemies and then wail on them with Molten Whirlpool until the enemy turns to mush before me.

 

This sounds like a bit too much, thats why I thought it would be good to reduce the attack inputs to only heavy attack and light attack. Light attacks for dealing with standard enemies and building up the combo counter, heavy attacks to use the combo counter damage against heavier units or maybe reach more enemies (if you hold the button down you charge the attack damage even further like current charge attacks, but still use the same animation with an added windup). I think I will draw a little graphic in paint to show exactly what combo system Im thinking of. Anyway, I wouldnt give the devs something too labour intensive, so having the block button to just block, and dodge (roll) button to just dodge, should be enough (although having even more combo possibilities through the use of a block button isnt bad).

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Right, so where to begin.

You released a mode which requires a high amount of "skill" - whether this is through being l33t MLG pros and aimbotting all the mobs with your Sancti Tigris/Tigris Prime, or you're a l0lzSpin2WinBoiiii guy and you use your melee with a build that requires a bit of an investment before making it viable, ignoring the cost to scale the build up with Rivens and so on. Next, you take about 2 weeks before you even begin slightly rebalancing the fact that even people with builds of about 5k plat investment in mods can't pass Wave X/Y, without bringing in 3 other players with this amount of investment in time or money into the game. Fine, whatever, not a big deal. After a couple of hotfixes you finally addressed this issue and made the mode slightly more bareable.

Next, you decide, "Oh, well there is only 2 viable ways to really play the mode into higher waves - either be one of the melee guys, or bring your WoW raid party equivalent geared friends to go past wave 8 without failing, so therefore let us nerf one of the two ways by nerfing the entire system - Melee guys say hi to Nerf Hammer 3000." Sure, I agree that it looks cringy as anything to kill stuff through the wall with your melee. But let's discuss a couple of things about that to see whether it's really that bad.

Firstly, I don't even know that many people who have builds like those - to me it looks like it would represent no more than anything between 1-5% of player base, with 5% really pushing it. Most people would use Equinox or something similar for AoE, because melee builds are expensive (I mean, 2k+ for good rivens and stuff). I haven't even had a run where I've seen people who have those builds yet, maybe once at most have I met a random person with a build like that. So you're nerfing/changing an entire system over the fact that 1-5% of the community can use it? (Unless if the numbers are higher, you'd know this because you have the statistics, but like I said, haven't met any guys with those builds myself.)

Moving on from how isolated the effect of the "old" system was, secondly, why not address some other issues the game has? This is a wave based game (with exception of some bosses here and there) where a lot of the gameplay experience is based on a faster clear speed (looking at stuff like Equinox, Ember, Mirage with Synoid Simulor back in the day and so on.) The problem with a game like this is, in order to be efficient (i.e. being in the 1% of players that clear stages like they've drunk 50 coffees and eaten 100 chocolate bars for hyperactivity), is that you need a high investment in a build, aside from Ember, but Ember never worked past level 30 so it's ok really. But the problem is, what happens if you nerf every build? You end up with the following problem - the 1% of players will find a new way to blink the gameplay out of existence, and this will become the "mainstream" model that the other percentage of the community will try to adapt to. Don't forget, you can nerf the game, but you can't nerf the player. Whoever can adapt to will be screaming hurrays, whoever can't will be screaming nerf. Fine, this is normal, however, once there is only 1-2 builds viable, the finger pointing and complains become bigger. In a game that boasts to have diversity, you've really dumbed the diversity down to 1-2 choices and then you start preaching "Oh we don't want 1 build to be viable we want to have more viable builds". Why not stop nerfing builds then?

Next, lets address the need for these builds aside from clear speed - enemy scaling. While sure, difficulty has to ramp up in some way - either in health, damage, numbers of mobs or a combination of all of those, it has to ramp up, I agree. But how does it ramp up? I'll give you an example. I can take a Chroma, with maxed out Power Strength to the 3rd Sortie, stand in the middle of a group of >20 mobs, and afk while I never die. Go on Plains of Eidolon and do the last Bounty? I'll die to 2 mobs hitting me twice with the exact same build. What happened with the numbers there? Mobs on one side are level 80-100, mobs on the other are 50-60, but the second deal 10 folds more damage, not even account the differences in health and armor. So, why not focus on this instead? It'd make both creating builds and using them a lot better (considering how casual Warframe is, you're literally banging on Elitism's door every other hotfix).

Finally, my thoughts on what you want to implement as changes, after I discussed all these issues:

- Combo Counter - changing this from what it is means I can only ever use it for 1 attack. Fine, except this 1 "heavy" attack takes 3 seconds to channel, hits only once and is useless in its current state. You'd have to carefully think on how you'd change "heavy" attacks if you'd ever want to buy anyone into using them, because for what they are at the moment I'll stick to spamming my melee key over using them, because I'll deal the same amount of damage in the same amount of time.

- Removing the wall penetration - while yes, wall penetration is overpowered, if you only make a player able to hit whatever is unobstructed by even a 1px wall, then essentially what's the point of using melee in the first place? You've turned it into a tunnel vision where I can only hit stuff immediately infront or next to my Warframe, which I can already do with either abilities or my guns, not even mentioning the fact that explosive weapons bypass walls (inbefore nerf incoming). Why not simply reduce the effectiveness (i.e. make damage lower if it's through the wall, or introduce a means of achieving the same result as before but with a mod requirement - like how guns have Punch Through mods.

- Blocking - people use Block? This is another tunnel vision aspect of melee - it only blocks infront (obviously, you're not a god and can't block what you can't see), but blocking has never done anything useful, since you literally have to stop any other activity to use it, including dealing damage. If you want to buy people in with "Oh you can reflect bullets back", I can already do this with Mesa's Shatter Shield or Ice Chroma, and I won't have to sacrifice my mobility and damage to do it.

- Channeling - never used this system, never will, unless if you make it innate. For one it eats Energy for the smallest boost ever, for the second it requires an entire button plus having the weapon equipped in order to use it. Only way to make it viable - make it eat hardly any Energy or use an entirely different resource and make it innate.

And I think that's that. Not like you'd listen to a veteran's ideas, but it's a longshot. You stopped doing this back in 2013, but there's always hope. Actually, you nerfed my "There Is No Hope Prime" melee, so yeah, don't think there is any.

Edited by injustible
Edit for the sake of typo
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To be Honest I would much Prefer if Channeling enabled a auxiliary effect on the weapons like for instance it could Morph a weapon while channeling or permitting more uniqe weapons added later on such as gauntlets that while channeled become wrist mounted shotguns that you could aim like a normal secondary or primary that way channeling could be implemented into combos like midway through a combo or something like that.

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18 minutes ago, High_Lord_Vex said:

To be Honest I would much Prefer if Channeling enabled a auxiliary effect on the weapons like for instance it could Morph a weapon while channeling or permitting more uniqe weapons added later on such as gauntlets that while channeled become wrist mounted shotguns that you could aim like a normal secondary or primary that way channeling could be implemented into combos like midway through a combo or something like that.

Like trick-mode weapons from Bloodborne? Sounds like it would be an interesting feature.

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1 hour ago, EpicBred said:

While I dont really get what you mean by counter and parry, I agree with the rest. It should be for getting off an enemy that got to close or to quickly prevent a napalm or bombard from shooting while your reloading. Using your primary or secondary in the animation, so you dont have the advantages of your melee weapon is interesting, but Im not a big fan of it. If by countering or parrying you mean blocking, then no. You should have to switch to full melee mode for that.

What do you mean by "Quick Melee animation gets added to the basic attack animations"? If you mean having the quick melee combo as your basic light attack combo, then please no. Just think of the single sword quick melee animation. Also, your stance should definately determine all of your combos, including your primary combo.

The ability to aim lower or higher is not bad, but its probably difficult to make look good.

Using blocking to create alternative combos is exactly what we have now, do you mean we should keep it?

This sounds like a bit too much, thats why I thought it would be good to reduce the attack inputs to only heavy attack and light attack. Light attacks for dealing with standard enemies and building up the combo counter, heavy attacks to use the combo counter damage against heavier units or maybe reach more enemies (if you hold the button down you charge the attack damage even further like current charge attacks, but still use the same animation with an added windup). I think I will draw a little graphic in paint to show exactly what combo system Im thinking of. Anyway, I wouldnt give the devs something too labour intensive, so having the block button to just block, and dodge (roll) button to just dodge, should be enough (although having even more combo possibilities through the use of a block button isnt bad).

Counter Attacks, deflecting Ranged strikes, as for some of the possibilities with counters and parry, which would trigger finishers.

I've been working through this to get it explained better, that there should be an integration of our inputs to execute combos along with ranged attacks, since melee stances and combos are isolated from gunplay currently and with gun and blade coming soon and how Quick Melee shows, that this should be expanded on further and a part of it is in being able to make use of various keybinds to flow as naturally as possible.

So building within the limits of the gaming controllers and have a new integration with key-binds for actions, with a few new menu options as needed. Should allow for actions to execute fluidly as a player moves about and should not be labor intensive beyond making changes to Stance Combos to activate from varied imputs.

So we'd have things like:

  • Combat style, which weapon would be default Equipped and idle?
    • I assume an option in the Arsenal or in Menu Options could work so that if a player wants to have their favorite weapon out as a default they can
    • and an in mission menu popup, along side the existing gear wheel should be considered with this paradigm, could have a connection to Focus Schools as a means to have it more interconnected
  • Ranged Attack -
    • if a Melee Weapon is default state, the Warframe would have to put away the melee before firing, so it all depends on the speed and efficiency of animations
    • various youtube videos show how trained individuals can do this within seconds, so not that big of an issue in making these animations fast and efficient.
  • Melee Strike (current Quick Melee key)
    • Basic Melee Swing as seen in Quick Melee that then can ramp up to a few basic animations, that can then synergize with other keybinds to execute Melee Combos.
    • Certain Animations, like for Swords, should get improved or replaced in the process, others like for Ninkondi and Shaku are basically perfect IMHO though.
  • Block/Parry/Counter (current Melee Block key)
    • can be used with other keybinds to execute advanced combos and Channeled Blocking could maybe use the Combo Counter, so a melee with better base Block uses less hits,
    • also able to stun and finish enemies when a prompt occurs and be available for executing combos, reason for this is to allow a player to choose when to have it happen, now when say using Inaros, Excal or Equinox, certain weapons just get stuck randomly using Finisher animations based on range to the target so moving it to a key like this would prevent that and add utility
  • Heavy Strike (current Melee Channeling key)
    • also able to Slam, Charge and possibly allow for Advanced dodges combined with other inputs
    • and throw/fire Melee Weapons, if equipped with one.
  • Jump - already has some synergy with Slams while airborne and Parkour, so also available for combos
  • Roll - I use this a lot, I incorporate this action in my movement and can be another available input for combos.
  • Slide - I use this a lot too, same as Roll
  • Roll/Slide - I don't use this anymore, but some players could so, leaving it here
  • Crouch - use this for bullet jumping, also possible to incorporate in Combos
  • Sprint - I can see a use for this with Charging (so Spring and Heavy Strike, for example) and executing Combos.
  • Secondary Fire - many weapons have a function that uses this
  • Reload
  • Gear Wheel Hot Keys - in my case I have assigned three and the Gear Wheel itself makes four to account for.
  • Warframe Abilities and Focus - in my case I have a mouse that allows me to have access to any of the four on demand, and keep '5' key for Focus.
  • Map
  • Zoom - for Warframe, I use Zoom on some weapons, and for controllers having it as a toggle for a thumb stick click seems plausible, so have it here on the list
  • Switch Gun/Equip Melee - I have these now to go between weapons and would be obsolete along with Switch Weapon, if a Warframe would be able to execute attacks in a renewed manner

So the point is with existing key-binds, changes under the hood so to speak can do much to add a different sort of functionality and fluidity with how we could approach fighting enemies in Warframe however players prefer and can be work for game controllers and mouse and keyboard.

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On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

 

Please consider to cancel the swap animation between weapons and make it instant. One of the key problems in using melee, combos and secondary in this game is the extremely slow switch beetween weapons which led you to more efficiently kill with your actual in use weapon or abilities instead. 

An instant swap would make the gameplay much more dinamic and fun.

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As a person that actively uses melee weapons i'm honestly worried. The solution to this problem is to remove the channeling ability and change it to something more useful, dont touch the combo multiplier as there's no reason to screw something up that works perfectly, and the thing you have the biggest problem with is maiming strike. just make maiming strikes bonus take effect after bloodrush already calculated the crit chance. its as simple as that there is no reason to take something that works and that most people are fine with and butcher it. 

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On 2018-05-11 at 9:27 PM, Eldirian said:

@[DE]Rebecca, if you are changing melee why not look at enemies' melee attacks. Like cheat/hax autotargeting of Infested Ancients and Scorpions? If you are going to finally address attacks through walls maybe check Scorch and Napalm Grineer?

Overall I like the changes but we need more information.

Also:

Fix armour scaling.

I'm adding a link to many cases of damage going through walls:

 

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On 2018-05-11 at 10:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

HUGE NERF. You'll be laughed off by some Bombardiers with your 5 minutes of constant 150 dmg per hit for pathetic single hit with 10-20k that don't even gonna hit everyone of them, while others gonna put their Ogris into your... khmm, well, you know were. Ka-boom! YOU DIED.

PS: Even if damage will be increased - just how much? It must be nearly Shotgun type damage to compensate combo nerf.

PPS: And isn't directional slam will return infamous "coptering"?

Edited by FollowTheFaceless
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3 hours ago, injustible said:

If you want to buy people in with "Oh you can reflect bullets back", I can already do this with Mesa's Shatter Shield or Ice Chroma, and I won't have to sacrifice my mobility and damage to do it.

You cited a total of two abilities to discredit the ability to deflect incoming fire using melee weapons...Really?

That's akin to saying "Why have melee weapons when Atlas has Landslide? Just use him if you want to melee."

Also, when was the last time that your cited abilities stopped knockdowns or allowed Finishers? Because blocking does that.

Edited by MirageKnight
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I'm sure somebody has already mentioned this so sorry for repeating concerns, but will the damage of Warframe abilities like Landslide and Bladestorm still be affected by the combo counter? If not, will they get buffed like the melee weapons are? Actually, being able to charge heavy attack punches as Atlas sounds pretty cool now. Maybe something to think about if his 4th or 2nd ability is ever changed?😛

In any case, super excited for the upcoming changes! Hopefully wall attacks and air attacks will get some love so melee can really feel fluid and varied.

Additionally, (and this might not be the thread for it but...) is Parkour 3.0 a thing? Seems like bulletjump gets abused as much as slide attacks do, and wall-run really needs a rework to be more universally applicable. Maybe an on/off mobility mode that will allow warframes to run on any surface, with a resource bar shared with melee block? (holy heck, never thought I'd want stamina back, but I guess it had it's uses 🤔)

Edited by RubbleRain

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DE lets make this very simple, instead of making all these chnages that may or may not work just get ride on wall and spin attacks simple

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1 hour ago, FollowTheFaceless said:

HUGE NERF. You'll be laughed off by some Bombardiers with your 5 minutes of constant 150 dmg per hit for pathetic single hit with 10-20k that don't even gonna hit everyone of them, while others gonna put their Ogris into your... khmm, well, you know were. Ka-boom! YOU DIED.

PS: Even if damage will be increased - just how much? It must be nearly Shotgun type damage to compensate combo nerf.

PPS: And isn't directional slam will return infamous "coptering"?

Coptering and decisive slamming are two different things one shot you across the map and the other is a slam that takes considerably more time that would be saved by just bullet jumping if you aim straight it's just gonna air attack not slam. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)JONAS_ORTIZ said:

Coptering and decisive slamming are two different things one shot you across the map and the other is a slam that takes considerably more time that would be saved by just bullet jumping if you aim straight it's just gonna air attack not slam. 

Depends on angle activation and possible length. It should be caped to 30 meters maximum, otherwise it will be fly through the whole Plains with single "slam".

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I will say it will be good to move away from the stupid "captain maiming" who's just goes around the map singing "ring around the rosie" who's killing everything before you can even do a dam thing besides it's just over rated and it's worse for someone that's new or someone who's actually using the stance mods for the actual purpose or for someone who prefers to use guns instead of a melee weapon so I honestly think it's about time melee gets the rework it deserves like the primary's and secondary's it would be good 

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2 hours ago, Cloud said:

Please consider to cancel the swap animation between weapons and make it instant. One of the key problems in using melee, combos and secondary in this game is the extremely slow switch beetween weapons which led you to more efficiently kill with your actual in use weapon or abilities instead. 

An instant swap would make the gameplay much more dinamic and fun.

There's mods for that as well as ones that load your primary and secondary when holsterd.

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Please leave the combo counter the way it is. I understand the spin to win is crazy right now. And that needs to be changed. I love going into survival games with my nekros and melee weapons and building up my combo to 4x and going for as long as I can solo. It can be a fun challeng and efficient farm for materials.

But if I have to use my heavy attack just to benefit from my combo then I'll probably stop using my melee. It's a slower animation, and on certain weapons I just really prefer to use quick consecutive melee attacks with. Polearms.

Just the opinion of a random fan.

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6 minutes ago, FollowTheFaceless said:

Depends on angle activation and possible length. It should be caped to 30 meters maximum, otherwise it will be fly through the whole Plains with single "slam".

I don't think they planned on it going beyond 30. 

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EDIT: I did not add this here, This again was added here by a mod with no note message or reason why to me the OP. I followed rules posted in correct section no reason it should be moved or added twice... and again still I've not even been give a message or note on why its was moved twice. This should be standard practice so original posters can find there content and be told why and if they broke rules how to next time not do so. Not be added here like the OP did it or wanted to. Doing this especially to people who are always happy to give thoughts take part in community and always give bug reports isn';t great and will just stop people from doing this

 

Firstly want to say I understand how much time and effort is going to have to go into changing melee and will be such a huge change I appreciate everything you do and all the hard work all of you guys at Digital Extremes do for us. I would really hope DE at least scans over all this we all deserve a voice when it comes to changes

THIS IS VERY LONG AND TBH ITS A LETTER TO THE DEV'S NO SO MUCH TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH EVERYONE ELSE THOUGH A POINTLESS TLDR IS AT END

SO IF YOU DON'T LIKE TO LONG AMOUNT SORRY

I have everything in game, max rank MR and enjoy all parts and play styles of Warframe. Been around for a long time my very first account when the game started was high MR, My Xbox WF account was MR20 when I was in the military and for Steam my account currently has all weapons excluding a couple login rewards and is MR25 half way to next

Other than the obvious OMG NIDUS SKIN which doesn't need to be said, oh hell it does wow, wow and oh WOW. If it comes even 80% of what the images showed it will be by far the best skin I think has ever been released from DE and all Tenno Gen. And I hope to see more in the future that animate and change over time as this one does

OK, I held of 24 hours after seeing the proposed changes, took all the info in, spoke to other how it will change things, watched videos from partners such as iFlynn, Tactical Potato, Brozime, Life of Rio, DK, AGGuyRob, McGamerCZ and more.

 

Its clear many between all including community are a little worried and concerned. And some are doing the usual freaking out and calling it the end lol

 

MY TAKE ON EVERYTHING DEV WORKSHOP RELATED (my only concern is will DE even see this or any other thread like this, and not just listen to Partners)

I honestly agree with most of the dev workshop, so only things I'll bring up are worries and things I don't agree with, which is only a couple of items

 

1st, Range Changes. (if its truly a nerf which we don't know but sounds like) and from what I've read and many others feel from wording is getting reduced drastically. As for RANGE Mods being possibly nerfed I don't understand this Warframe over time is becoming more and more open world over the next few years each planet I presume will have its own town/city centre and large open world area. Range mods DO NOT NEED nerfing, what I hope this is, is just making all melee range in line with the actually weapon its self, and Primed reach, Reach and Riven mods will still work on top of that, if we get a overall range fix where all melee are giving a range that is correct for that weapon, and we then get range stats on every melee too would be great. But primed reach range mods and riven's range which many pay a lot for or have grind much Kuva for still additive, this isn't a realistic game so no need for it to stay exact same 

Quick note as its on melee and range related as for Melee though walls, I agree totally melee through walls though fun and honestly can help a lot sometimes (actually has allowed me to continue a mission several times because of a enemies stuck in a wall and under new rules this mission would have either failed or I'd of had to back out and do again) But I agree melee though walls should go. Since you are going to add collision to walls for melee items to stop as you showed in a video people macro farming AFK away using this method (and I'd like to add, just because a very small amount of people do something this shouldn't always mean we all suffer for it). I just see this being a huge amount of work for DE adding collision and possibly having manually by hand to go though every map and make sure in certain area's things cannot get stuck. But I'm cool with melee not working though walls, just hope its done right.

 

2nd, Combo Counter Changes. The one thing I sadly think many are missing because they are worried about maiming strike more than anything Oh and I'll get to that at the end. But the main issue change I see and have and thankfully almost all partners on YouTube have brought this up to with worries is COMBO COUNTER not increasing damage... and being spent on a charged attack. Straight away I'm going to say this is all I have serious issues with and do not agree with at all, and I feel could change the entire game, doing this isn't as simple as turning it off as some might think, the entire game is going to have to be changed and I think along with many others could be seriously bad.

Keep the melee combo counter increasing basic attacks damage and just give us a heavy attack which takes extra time to do, "charging" up your heavy with combo counter from basic attacks and then spending them on a heavy attack isn't going to be used, Its something I will never use DE and I feel the amount of time effort and changes you are going to have to make in the game and for months and months after its implemented into the game is going to be a waste. There are so so many frame, melee weapons attacks mods, Riven's etc that use and require combo counter. And I do not believe you increasing all melee weapons damage substantially will compensate for the loss of a x2, x2.5, x3... combo counter increase in damage because the x3 isn't just base damage increase, its crit increase along with increase from element damage so much, even if you increase all melee damage by x3 base damage this will still be a wide spread nerf on EVERY melee weapon in game..

Please don't get rid of combo counter increased damage if your goal is to remove the slide-crit then you could simply remove the base crit from slide attacks and increase the base attack damage for spin attack only. This would do the same thing without hurting so many frames, powers, moves, mods, good synergy and melee weapons that require combo counter. As for the heavy attack the slam looks good but as currently many tiles sets are enclosed small spaces much like the heavy slam we have no it won't get used other than the first week when its new and cool and people like to play with new things. Just make the heavy attack not cost anything but its slower over time so the increased damage from the heavy would coincide with the DPS as it takes longer to use. Meaning lets say you in the time it takes to come out of a normal attack to them charge and use heavy attack, you could of done say 3 more normal attacks so the heavy needs to be min or 3 times the damage else as it will be much less DPS it will not get used other than a AOE to clear large groups if it sends them flying or give the heavy guarteed procs of some sort, stuns open to fihishers, what ever but dont use up combo counter PLEASE.

 

OK as for Maiming strike and everyone freaking out about it.

Couple of things I want to say about this one directly to DE at the end which does annoy me some what.

Maiming strike isn't the issue maiming strike add's No damage all it does it get you to red crit faster you can do the same with Blood Rush and Relentless combination mod, it just takes a few extra slide attacks to get there, maiming just gets you there faster that's all. Also all melee riven's with disposition of minimum of 1/5 or 2/5 can have innate maiming built in. I have several that have these. So its not just maiming strike to stop this they are going to have to kill many other things and as for trying to stop the meta, this can never happen DE people will always find a way to get the best from something, you will just be chasing your tail for ever on that one..

 

OK Directly to DE here, PLEASE LISTEN

My one serious critic i have of you guys is this, you put Blood Rush, Body Count, Drifting Contact, Naramon Focus schools combo reduced timer perk power for combo counter, you put Maiming Strike in, you coded Slide to Crit huge numbers on Riven's, you allowed Huge range on Riven's, you added Primed Reach. None of these things where a mistake, shouldn't of been release or a accident, all of these items over the years you have implemented in to the game and they WORK as Intended and coded to do so.... My huge complaint here is You have massively profited of people buying tens and tens of Thousands plat with real money if not more to buy and trade for Riven's with slide-crit, range all these highly sought after things for melee riven's, you have known this from day one and allowed it to be this way and kept added more and more new Riven's (for Zaw's and newly implemented melee weapons) and left maiming strike and brought it back several times in the event all the while knowing how it worked, this epiphany didn't just hit you guys this last few weeks, the red Crit slide has been around for a long time. My concern is now you are basically in one swoop going to make many hundreds of thousands of riven's useless, I didn't buy this thankfully with realy money but as a example. I have 3 Plague-Kripath Riven's one I bought for 200p another I bought for 350p (this is nothing i see what some pay for these typical as even today see them selling for 1-2k) and other I got myself from sortie, now it wont hurt me so much, in fact I've made a lot of plat over the maiming strike and slide range Riven's so its not hurting me at all these changes. But as example, my Plague-Kripath riven I have with is 133% Slide-Crit chance and 155% range, what is going to happen to that and if someone had bought this for 1000's of plat that he or she may of bought with real world cash, which is a hell of a lot of money, Only you guys have the numbers and know how much Plat is purchased and you guys know where most of that is spent guys. And killing off the two main things is going to not only hurt and make people who spent a lot of money on Riven's feel like they have massively lost out and I honestly think you will ultimately loose too.

I watched iFlynn video today, he like me agreed with 90% of proposed changes but had concerns for the combo counter changes, but he said his friend in his clan had just 1 hour before the stream and the Dev Workshop had purchased a Scoliac riven for 4K plat which he spent real money on and it was range and slide-crit. That's a huge amount of money on play even if he used a 50% off or what ever that's still a massive amount of money, to which now with these changes has made him and everyone else who's put money into items in game and feels like its a investment and could always get Money for them now worthless. What about the people who have spent 100k-200k++ Kuva on a single riven to get the+ rolls of these items to know be told its waste of time because its gone useless. This is bad and I feel for all of them. Personally I make all my plat in game trading and or from Primes Access bundles but many put a lot of money into this game, and to see it may all be for nothings is worrying. And as I said my massive concern is guys at DE come on you have sat back and seen this and knew this even your own works use the meme or riven's for it, and have possibly profited from it on there personal accounts. I've seen people from DE tweeting out pictures of there riven's so happy with huge range and such on them. But this has been here for a very long time, if it was so bad and you didn't like it, you could of capped Range on riven's, not coded the slide to crit on riven's, and removed Maiming strike a long time, you allowed it to come back in the events  (though as I said relentless combo and blood rush does the same things so its not maiming strikes fault) I just feel you are going to hurt many many mechanics and people by just trying to get rid of the meta of maiming, which is used by a lot of people but in the way your concerned about by very few. And the huge amount of time and money you've allowed people to put into mods and riven's for these things over all this time, for you to now say Oh we don't like it bye bye. What are you going to do to all these mods, riven's etc. 

Anyway its all good all love I Know you guys will do us right, I just hope in the future if and when you add something and you feel its broken or has ruined the game not leave it in for 2 years keep bring its back in events at the same thing to Riven's and just remove it straight away, you know remove a plaster or band-aid fast rip it of quick, where as this feels like your going to be slowly pulling of a band-aid to cause as much pain as possible, and big smile on your face haha

Thank you DE, A concerned Tenno 🙂

 

 

BTW One thing i picked up on some people saying, spin to win has to go, its boring it takes no skill, well its no different to you running in the room and clicking left click to shoot, its no different to you running in the room and spamming E to melee, in fact slide attack takes more key pressed and effort effort to do so lol. Anyway as I said I'm not fighting for maiming strike as I've clearly said its not the issue, and if it went it would not effect me at all I have concerns DE trying to get rid of the meta is going to hurt and damage so many other things and mechanics in game. As for everything else in the workshop should be ok, I do have faith and trust in DE to do the right thing I just hope they are very careful with this, because we could see the return of the old days where melee was dead and no one used it, and all this to get rid of a single mechanic and meta, seems harsh and I have given understanding and resolutions other ways above how they could go about getting the same result but much less work and less risk to everything else

 

TLDR: TBH this is for DE I know its long but it has several points I'm not having a go and not offering ways we could fix I have given all my thoughts and ways we could do same with less dramatic and possible risk.... but for everyone else none DE TLDR is.... I agree with Dev workshop, Range shouldn't be nerf'd I hope we just get range details on melee and have all melee range fit the weapon style but range mods and riven's range mods not killed off.. And Maiming Strike isn't the big bad baddy and cause of all this, AND TRYING TO kill it off could be done in much simpler and better ways that don't risk every melee and much more mechanics in game...I asked that next time dont leave it so long since they have profited of this meta massively, and oh YEAH NIDUS SKIN IS Fooking Amazing!!!

Edited by DelBoyJamie
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I understand weapons needing line of sight, I have no problems with that. Actually, I welcome it if it is implemented well (edge cases: enemies in very tight geometry). But for those people who have range rivens, let them keep the range. Just my two cents. Good luck 😄

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should be interesting... Hopefully these changes such as the combination of fast & slow Attacks gives melee combat a more combative feel reminded me of God Of War combat mechanics...

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