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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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@[DE]Rebecca

dont think its worth an extra thread so ill drop it here:

channeling seemed like its still a topic thats pretty much hovering in thin air so, how about using the reload button which is currently unused in melee ?

maybe something like keeping reload button pressed to convert X energy per second into a channeling meter. this meter is unaffected by any energy drain effects like abilities or leech eximus. on tapping reload button channeling mode is enabled. on tapping again its disabled, so basically what we currently have with LMB. with such an extra "ressource" there are different option for channeling to give boni and its really only affected by -/+ channeling efficiency in terms of its ressource, at least when energy got converted into it.

aside from the energy management, which prolly other ppl mentioned plenty already, i think reworking the mods and how +channeling dmg gives dmg and how -efficiency works would help it quite a lot. right now its basically an artificial crit so it does need some creativity but i think putting it onto block alone would be a waste of this cool feature.

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2 hours ago, Xydeth said:

@[DE]Rebecca

dont think its worth an extra thread so ill drop it here:

channeling seemed like its still a topic thats pretty much hovering in thin air so, how about using the reload button which is currently unused in melee ?

maybe something like keeping reload button pressed to convert X energy per second into a channeling meter. this meter is unaffected by any energy drain effects like abilities or leech eximus. on tapping reload button channeling mode is enabled. on tapping again its disabled, so basically what we currently have with LMB. with such an extra "ressource" there are different option for channeling to give boni and its really only affected by -/+ channeling efficiency in terms of its ressource, at least when energy got converted into it.

aside from the energy management, which prolly other ppl mentioned plenty already, i think reworking the mods and how +channeling dmg gives dmg and how -efficiency works would help it quiteÔĽŅ a lot. right now its basically an artificial crit so it does need some creativity but i think putting it onto block alone would be a waste of this cool feature.

the reload button on and the  default interaction button the same on controller making your suggestion a iven worse idea

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb (PS4)yokai1235:

the reload button on and the  default interaction button the same on controller making your suggestion a iven worse idea

huh thats an issue indeed.

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While youre at it, can we get more finisher animations? And let us customise finishers animation as well

Also please make combos easier, at least remove the use of directions in combos mods,  its really annoying. 

And please do something about wall attacks, rarely used is a soft way of describing it. 

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

And please do something about wall attacks, rarely used is a soft way of describing it. 

You're not wrong. The Wall Attack is rarely used. However, if I remember correctly, if you jump and melee that little dash forward is treated as a wall attack.  Obviously so long as it's not a slam attack. If anyone else can confirm or deny please do

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The fact that that enemies counting as objects was a "feature" is disgusting. One tiny bandaid isn't going to change the fact that this is a blanket nerf to the base mechanics of one of the central features of this game. Or the fact that it's using Maiming Strike as an excuse, and then gutting every aspect of melee EXCEPT Maiming Strike. As I've said multiple times, Rivens are responsible for the Maiming Strike hate. +200% range rivens are the reason behind "I have nothing to kill" syndrome. Instead of simply adjusting the disposition of Scoliac rivens, or removing Maiming Strike, the environment becomes a limiter, and the combo meter becomes a useless limiter that only functions on a single attack that will be useless due to the way the game functions, and range will be capped. Instead of re-balancing rivens, they're "re-balancing" the entirety of melee, lying about the reasons behind it, and not even doing anything to address what they cite as the base cause for those adjustments. But when those Rivens sell for 4-6k platinum, its pretty obvious why they won't address that. And if those rivens allow you to hit the range cap without Primed Reach and save a slot? Whooo.

So don't expect maiming spin to win to go anywhere. Primed Reach/ Primed Pressure Point/ Organ Shatter/ Maiming/ 3x 90% elementals and Primed Fever Strike. There's your new meta. New players? Hope you weren't thinking this was going to leave you more enemies to kill, because it won't. Vets? Enjoy not even being able to open boxes, let alone hit enemies consistently with half of your gear. People in the middle? Well, you'll have less that's worth grinding for, and therefore less to grind, so I guess that's one positive.

Edited by Hyohakusha
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On 2018-05-11 at 12:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
  • Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.

im curious on if this will make parrying viable now if you are adding channeling to it....yes there isnt much use, but its still fun to be able to open enemies to finishers when properly parried. (looks at God of War and For Honor)

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16 minutes ago, Kalvorax said:

im curious on if this will make parrying viable now if you are adding channeling to it....yes there isnt much use, but its still fun to be able to open enemies to finishers when properly parried. (looks at God of War and For Honor)

Forgive me if I am understanding this wrong, but it seems like Rebecca is saying that Channeling is being removed, while Channeled Blocking is staying as the default block with its energy costs (which are what make it prohibitive in the first place) or an additional cost brought in to modify it further. That will require a change to most existing channeling mods like Life Strike for instance.

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On 2018-05-22 at 5:46 AM, LonghornRed said:

 

21 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

I still feel very against the LoS requirement.

 

I understand not wanting people to cheese missions by slidespamming behind a corner. But the problem with melee weapons isn't that this tactic is possible, it's that MaimingStrike+BloodRush makes this tactic borderline meta. Corner spamming (and, for that matter, slidespam itself) was NEVER an issue in the game before MS+BS was released.

I'm running a pure-Status melee build, which was not overpowered at all. Yet it got hit by the LoS change, and my melee weapon (which produces 100% of my damage output) is now super unreliable and kills things half as fast. Meanwhile, MS+BS can still get you >700% crit chance on a non-crit melee weapon.

 

This is not how you balance things. MaimingStrike+BloodRush (i.e. their multiplicative interaction) is STILL the most overpowered thing about melee weapons, sticking a mile over nearly every other build choice. It makes slidespam meta, and that happened to synergize very strongly with lazy corner spamming (which is why corner spamming became an issue in the first place). Blanket-nerfing melees as a whole did not solve this issue.

 Which is why only heavy attacks will be affected by the Combo Counter multipliers, if effectively murders the Spin-2-Win tactic on the new Melee System. and frankly I not against the range nerf either, with the current mods some melee weapons get way out of control by just adding one range mod. I mean hitting 20m with a melee weapon, really? in most maps this pretty much the same as using a gun, only you'll hit much more enemies and cause much more damage. Sadly these mods are pretty good for daggers, fist weapons and Sparring weapons, at it makes possible for you to reliably land all hits from tehir combos whenever Stagger procs.

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45 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Forgive me if I am understanding this wrong, but it seems like Rebecca is saying that Channeling is being removed, while Channeled Blocking is staying as the default block with its energy costs (which are what make it prohibitive in the first place) or an additional cost brought in to modify it further. That will require a change to most existing channeling mods like Life Strike for instance.

from what im understanding, everything channeling-wise but channeled blocking is getting removed. Basically, when we block post 3.0 it will be like we are channeling while blocking currently....permanently.

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2 hours ago, Kalvorax said:

from what im understanding, everything channeling-wise but channeled blocking is getting removed. Basically, when we block post 3.0 it will be like we are channeling while blocking currently....permanently.

With all the complete energy drain that entails, not enthused about that then.

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There is no need for 2 slam attacks.    Better separate Aerial melee and Slams.   

 

"Heavy attack" midair = Slam.     Tap - vertical.   Hold - aimed (according to my personal research that one is unnecessary.  Better add momentum to vertical slam and enable WSAD / L-stick steering on it).  

"Light attack" midair = Aerial melee. 

 

Its much cleaner that way. 

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Since there is a free button with the removal of channeling i feel that can be used to switch stances. Switching during combos would do an attack that stuns enemies and starts a new combo.  

The reload button can be used for finishers and stealth kills. I feel having regular attacks as the button to do finishers can be rather annoying when there are a bunch of enemies open for finishers. Also more finisher animations would be great. 

Pressing the weapon swap button would be the new heavy attack button and you would have to hold it to switch weapons (only when your not meleeing though).  There would be heavy attack combos as well as light but less buttons for heavy than light.

Aerial combos? Light attacks for combos and heavys will ground slam. 

Since there combining blocking and channeling i feel they should reduce the energy cost significantly since u have no choice, Im guessing they’ll do that anyway, but put in a mechanic where i time your block to get some form of reward. Could be energy back, all enemies get debuffed, stuns, melee dmg up or even pairs of these.  When blocking you can aim your melee swings horizontally (light) and verticaly (heavy).  Blocking and finisher button would do an alternate ser of finishers/stealth kills when theres an opening.

Holding light, heavy attack during combos, stance switch and finisher button will drain a portion of the combo meter.  These will activate lifestrike and the longer you hold a button the more it drains the combo increasing power, range, crit dmg, status and crit chance.  Combos can still be performed with the entire meter.  Holding ground slam would have an aoe effect.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)marcellusg90 said:

Since there is a free button with the removal of channeling i feel that can be used to switch stances. Switching during combos would do an attack that stuns enemies and starts a new combo.  

The reload button can be used for finishers and stealth kills. I feel having regular attacks as the button to do finishers can be rather annoying when there are a bunch of enemies open for finishers. Also more finisher animations would be great. 

Pressing the weapon swap button would be the new heavy attack button and you would have to hold it to switch weapons (only when your not meleeing though).  There would be heavy attack combos as well as light but less buttons for heavy than light.

Aerial combos? Light attacks for combos and heavys will ground slam. 

Since there combining blocking and channeling i feel they should reduce the energy cost significantly since u have no choice, Im guessing they’ll do that anyway, but put in a mechanic where i time your block to get some form of reward. Could be energy back, all enemies get debuffed, stuns, melee dmg up or even pairs of these.  When blocking you can aim your melee swings horizontally (light) and verticaly (heavy).  Blocking and finisher button would do an alternate ser of finishers/stealth kills when theres an opening.

Holding light, heavy attack during combos, stance switch and finisher button will drain a portion of the combo meter.  These will activate lifestrike and the longer you hold a button the more it drains the combo increasing power, range, crit dmg, status and crit chance.  Combos can still be performed with the entire meter.  Holding ground slam would have an aoe effect.

Interesting ideas, but its likely that the new melee system would have to work with both active melee and sword and gun melee which would likely still need that reload for reloading.

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1 hour ago, Urlan said:

Interesting ideas, but its likely that the new melee system would have to work with both active melee and sword and gun melee which would likely still need that reload for reloading.

It should still work i said reload would be for finishers mainly meaning certain conditions needed to bet met.  Enemy has to be on the ground, blind or sleep. Something like that.  It would be for interacting.  Why cant it be used to reload if your not close enough or in a situation like that.

Thanks for the feedback Urlan

Also i forgot to say this before.

Combo attacks can include light, heavy and the stealth/finisher button input where you are able to hold the button anytime during the combo to use some combo meter.  That way there would be no need for hold, pause and directional inputs to make melee more comfortable.  

Since sword and gun melee could be something melee should have a special attack when not in certain situations. It could be grabs, spin attacks, a short leaping ground slam, rushing attack, glaive throw.

Edited by (PS4)marcellusg90
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One of the most important thing to do to balance melee for me is to change the foot movement.

Warframe is a very dynamic, and you can run,jump, slide,  attack   in a realy pleasant flow but some weapons animations have too momentum and break this  gameplay, for me  this weapon become useless. For example take quick attack from dual blade : first one, this weapons don't have a really good reach, and when you start striking your warframe is struck in place and so you miss many time because your enemies are going away. in other hand, you have some weapon (quick attack)  that don't suffer from this like polearms, nikana etc. Some combo animations have the same issue too.

It will be good  if the movement speed is not linked with the attack/combo animation.

 

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What if channeling increased attack speed and range while keeping the energy drain per second.

I know I would use it then.

Edited by Kaminarion

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3 hours ago, Kaminarion said:

What if channeling increased attack speed and range while keeping the energy drain per second.

I know I would use it then.

And I would stop using it. I avoid dynamic changes to my melee attack speed like the plague. I choose my attack speed in the Arsenal based on timing, not raw speed. Changing the speed changes the timing. Not maxing speed has not resulted in me failing missions.

Edited by Kinetos
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4 hours ago, (PS4)marcellusg90 said:

ItÔĽŅÔĽŅ shoÔĽŅuld still work i said reload would be for finishers mainly meaning certain conditions needed to bet ÔĽŅmeÔĽŅtÔĽŅ.ÔĽŅ ¬†Enemy has to be on the ground, blind ÔĽŅor sleÔĽŅep

Then why not use the contextual action button to do this contextual action?

I've heard controllers don't have a leftover "reload" button in melee mode,so how would it work for them?

I'll be against suggestions to add functionality to specific bindings that do unrelated things.I'm in favor of adding new bindings that happen to share default keys instead. If a new finisher keybind is added with the default key R,that would be superior to just making reload and finisher the same binding. It would allow people like myself to rebind their controls without undue restrictions. Imo this is one of the biggest problems with Archwing, it doesn't have separate control settings and bindings, everything is just tacked on to ground bindings and can't be separated.

But in this instance I think the contextual action key is appropriate. Finishers *are* a contextual action,so adding to that binding is appropriate. It is available in gun and melee mode AND on m+kb and controller

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maiming strike is not something too op, it just swift and fast killing in low level mob, trying your quick melee with some weapon like zaw, it's deal massive damage than maiming, enemies melt in second , and large range (12-14m)

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1 hour ago, Kinetos said:

Then why not use the contextual action button to do this contextual action?

I've heard controllers don't have a leftover "reload" button in melee mode,so how would it work for them?

I'll be against suggestions to add functionality to specific bindings that do unrelated things.I'm in favor of adding new bindings that happen to share default keys instead. If a new finisher keybind is added with the default key R,that would be superior to just making reload and finisher the same binding. It would allow people like myself to rebind their controls without undue restrictions. Imo this is one of the biggest problems with Archwing, it doesn't have separate control settings and bindings, everything is just tacked on to ground bindings and can't be separated.

But in this instance I think the contextual action key is appropriate. Finishers *are* a contextual action,so adding to that binding is appropriate. It is available in gun and melee mode AND on m+kb and controller

if you mean like when your activating something like an elevator or picking up stars then yes like that just on enemies for finishers. Since melee does nothing else i say why not add a feature where with whatever melee weapon you have you do something unique like throw the glaive since theres no other thing for it in melee. Its not like you’ll be mashing it like the light attack button which gets annoying when there is a crowd of enemies open for finishers and you forced to single target all of them or use your abilities and guns which im tryna avoid doing.

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Hi Digital Extreme and fellow players,

 

 

Melee weapons and the 'spin to win' mechanic are on the edge of being 'nerfed'.  That could be a good thing but overall I think that's a wrong decision.

 

 

I am posting this BEFORE the possible update.  I have more than 2700 hours of time played (in game). I am mostly speaking about end-game content (level 70+).

 

 

Why 'nerfing' spin to win is a wrong decision ?

 

 

1. Too many enemies are shooting at you. Consequently, you have to be mobile.

2. Being mobile is not compatible with the vast majority of primary and secondary weapons (except for some weapons like ignis/amprex/atomos...) because aiming is vital to do damage.

3. Therefore, melee weapons are quite the only option to survive. Being efficient is mandatory or you will die. It means that most enemies have to be eliminated in a few seconds.

4. Introducing a new melee combat system requires new mechanics and a more complex combat system. It means that cognitive charge for our brain will be higher than before. For most people, playing a game is doable after work, at the evening, which means that your brain is tired and that you don't want to invest a massive cognitive charge in it. Spin to win is perfect to avoid that.

5. In psychology, flow is a state that all game designers and User Experience designers try to have for 'their' gamers. In Warframe, we are more on the boredom side that on the frustration side (only applies to experimented gamers/'veteran'). If the melee update arrives, we'll probably be much more (too much) on the frustration side.

The below diagram (source : https://www.gamified.uk/2012/11/30/flow-and-satisfaction/) shows how flow works. (I hope we'll see it)

 

 

 

Feedback about the previous change (melee weapons can no longer go through walls) :

I haven't seen any difference, it's just more boring to have to go on the other side of the wall to kill the hidden enemy. The gif video that DE have shown (an excalibur killing enemies and not moving) is irrelevant precisely because you are not moving : you waste time to do this and you're not going through the mission.

Yet, I can no longer kill the Jackal with my loki on kuva flood missions by exploiting the pylon. Well, I'll take Inaros now and that's it.

As I do syndicate missions, I have to destroy all crates to get medaillons/datums... Melee weapons not going through walls and not destroying crates is really frustrating now.

 

 

Trail/lead :

Redesigning a game mechanic requires time and investment. Instead of reworking melee system, DE game designers could improve primary and secondary weapons and most importantly, investing this time in new and more challenging content.

 

 

Improving primary and secondary weapons :

The most frustrating thing while playing with primary and secondary weapons is the reload system. Having to jump/move to avoid getting killed in order to reload is breaking the fun. Having a max 1 sec reload time would be a decent alternative to melee weapons.

Restricting Mastery Rank on Maiming Strike, riven mods with maiming strike and other unique mods :

Sure, doing spin to win at MR 1-10 is not a good way to discover the game. Therefore, DE could lock the access to Maiming strike and other powerful mods to MR 20+. It would mean that you have accessed to the 'end-game' content and powerful mods only if you have played other weapons.

General change :

Who was the game designer that decided to implement frozen crates all over corpus maps ? That was an awful idea. Each time i destroy one of them, i swear. That's not good for the flow.

Creating community surveys about next updates :

I haven't seen any surveys about how the game could change and how players would like to see it. It could be a good decision to hire a User Experience Designer (well, here i am :D) to create and lead surveys and improve general operations.

 

 

If you have read everything : congratulations ! More seriously, thank you for your time and remember that this is just feedbacks, so don't get upset.

 

 

Best regards to all DE staff and gamers,

 

 

Bodo

Edited by Bodosbox
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