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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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Just to preface this, I've been playing for about 5 years now with in-game hours sitting at ~3,500. My most used frames are Ash and Valkyr, as I love melee very much in this game.
I especially loves Scythes, but that's besides the point for now. My point is that it would be apt to call me a Melee main just for context. My points are below in bold.

On 2018-05-11 at 12:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

This is fine and makes sense to me, you did the same with explosives/beams. Just make sure we can still headshot this time.

  • While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.

This is also fine and makes sense. It's how many games with good combat such as Nier Automata and the new GoW do.

  • Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.

There's no need for a separate resource. Blocks only work from the front. Keeping the current system of blocking giving DR is fine. Just let shields be able to block 100% of the damage from a bigger angle so they actually have something unique going for them. As a side-note, give every melee a better idle blocking animation with more flare. Holding a stick in front of your face for everything before the bullets start hitting you looks very lame.

  • We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.

If you can keep in charge attacks (one for holding light, one for holding heavy) then you could give them some sort of flashy void energy covered attack full of flare. Possibly with increased range represented by your energy color. This point is just an idea, there are probably better ideas that you guys have already.

  • Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

This is awful, let me elaborate. The current system of every melee action except blocking scale with the combo counter is near perfect. Lowering the gates to increase the combo multiplier sounds like a good idea to make it perfect. Having the combo multiplier only affect heavy attacks, and on top of that making heavies drain the entire combo counter is just baffling. Even if it didn't drain the entire combo counter it's a bad idea. Let me emphasize here: please do not do this.
I'm going to assume this is your way of trying to nerf the Blood Rush meta, however if that's truly what you want to do I'd suggest just toning down the mod itself.

Unfortunately I'm a goon and forgot some points:
Combo counter being completely lost after the timer runs out still feels bad to this very day. 
It should work like how Naramon's Power Spike passive node works exactly at it's max rank, then you can just change Power Spike to something else entirely. With the base timer before each decay being buffed to 5 seconds at base over the current 3 seconds at base.

 

  • Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.

I have no problem with this. The new slam attacks are god damned amazing. Great job here.

  • You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!

It took awhile, but I'm glad it's finally happening. My friends will appreciate this.

  • Dodge canceling any melee attack!

This is great as well. To add on to it though, can you make dodging with a melee weapon equipped just perform Limbo's dodge animation? Or make a new one entirely with a more quick and flashy animation. The rolling still looks a bit dated and awkward.

  • FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.

Very, very nice. Eye candy is always appreciated.

  • Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 

I touched on this above already, but toning down Blood Rush would be a much better solution than destroying the current combo counter system. 
I can't go into this any further as there's not much information, but maybe look into buffing Spring-Loaded Blade.

  • Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.

Solid.

  • Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks

As I said previously, do not make this change in regards to the combo counter system. Let normal attacks keep their combo multiplier. There doesn't have to always be some sort of drawback, that's what tuning numbers is for. To make sure I'm being clear here, I'm fine with channeling going away in it's current iteration though.
Alternatively for it completely going away you could just let Light/Heavies still build up the combo counter (while not scaling with it damage wise), with the combo counter build up giving a variety of buffs as the new "channeling". That would give you place to use the old channeling VFX, and it would prevent the bad feeling of heavies obliterating your combo. This is a 2nd option idea just in case you go through with not letting light attacks scale in damage with the combo counter.

  • Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

This was very much needed, thank you for doing this.

Additional thoughts:
I saw in the stream that you stated you're increasing base melee ranges, and lowering/changing? how range mods work. I am actually fine with this.
However to add onto that, it would be very nice if there was some sort of quick leap in order to get around to enemies much quicker. This is also something that's in the new God of War, and somewhat also in the game currently in the form of Hysteria's and the Twin Basolk's augments. Having a quick leap mid-attack be passive to every melee's combo would be much appreciated.
Air combos are mandatory, I have been waiting for them forever. Even if it's just letting us hover in the air for a few seconds to get at least one combo off, it would be fine.
Having some certain combos knock up enemies for a couple seconds would be nice.
Some weapons have unique traits, such as all Scythe charge attacks forcing a Slash proc, keeping those kinds of things in would be great.
For Scythes specifically though, they still need much longer range. Visually and statistically
I saw the proposed Scythe changes earlier, however I want to make sure that not only are their handles going to be long, but that their blade length and height are also huge.
The new Dokrahm "heavy blade" barely cuts it (no pun intended) in the handle length department, since the Strike itself has it's own sort of grip.
The Dokrahm's blade though is still very lacking. With the blade length just barely not being long enough, and the blade height being very small and disappointing.
For clarity again, by blade length I mean the part that sticks out from the handle, and by blade height I mean how much metal there is between the dull part of the blade and the sharp (killing) part of the blade.
That's all my points for now. Hopefully you read this even though it's so far into the thread at this point.

Edited by GreyEnneract
Forgot some points, so I added them in red.
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Okay DE, it's time for congratulations, for once you've put out a good, well planned, amazingly structured road map that absolutely no one will have problems with... PSYCHE. This update is effectively killing ever using melee for me, with these changes we lose the ability to be efficient, pretty much putting us pre-Shadow Debt, where melee was super meh and not really worth using at all. Sure the combo stuff looks cool animation wise, it just doesn't look cool... any way else. I would like to hear some reasons as to why you're nerfing the efficiency meta, when so many players enjoy it... yet NOT addressing the real reasons behind it. I believe that choice is key, and I think that limiting me to some clunky combo moves as the only way to do damage with melee is... mediocre. I would ALSO like to know why there isn't anything really said in this workshop, could we get some numbers or examples of how weapons will change?

take this meme in good faith however, since I feel like it truly encompasses this workshop

Spoiler

IeHZ8wI.jpg

 

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I liked Melee a lot as it was and spin-to-win was one of the most satisfying things to do in game for me... R.I.P....

Abolishing the Combo Counter? Why? What's gonna happen to Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Body Count and Drifting Contact? They were the staple of so many builds... I enjoyed building up the combo counter to deal red crits and more dmg... I do not want to waste all that dmg on a single hit. You are constantly swarmed by enemies in game. What will ONE SINGLE big hit achieve???

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Last thing i want is a devil may cry system. I don't wanna be spending a good solid 20 seconds chopping one guy up over and over when you have 40 other enemies to deal with.

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Hope you look at WHY we would whip the walls to make it easier for us. Some mats are a pain in the butt to get and that's one of the reasons we did it.

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1 minute ago, ParadiseRegained said:

Okay DE, it's time for congratulations, for once you've put out a good, well planned, amazingly structured road map that absolutely no one will have problems with... PSYCHE. This update is effectively killing ever using melee for me, with these changes we lose the ability to be efficient, pretty much putting us pre-Shadow Debt, where melee was super meh and not really worth using at all. Sure the combo stuff looks cool animation wise, it just doesn't look cool... any way else. I would like to hear some reasons as to why you're nerfing the efficiency meta, when so many players enjoy it... yet NOT addressing the real reasons behind it. I believe that choice is key, and I think that limiting me to some clunky combo moves as the only way to do damage with melee is... mediocre. I would ALSO like to know why there isn't anything really said in this workshop, could we get some numbers or examples of how weapons will change?

take this meme in good faith however, since I feel like it truly encompasses this workshop

  Hide contents

IeHZ8wI.jpg

 

don't try to complain about it, DE doens't like criticism about their changes 

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This looks very promising, I'm honestly hoping that we will actually have a reason to use all of the combos in our repertoire and not just one combo or spin to win in order to be effective. I'd like to see a fun, diverse range of melee attacks that really make me feel like a space ninja while at the same time not losing efficiency. Add some weight into the mix and this should turn out hella fun!

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.

To make them more fun must be considerated 2 point, make it useful and make it fast.

Performing slam attack will knock down nearby enemies, but there are more enemies that the ones you can hit, and after doing the slam attack you stay vulnerable too long, Performance slam attack will knock down nearby enemies, but there are more enemies that the ones you can hit, and after doing the slam attack you stay vulnerble too long, and that brings death.

For this, a faster recovery time, added to a higher range of effectivity, would be a solution

The heavy attack is very powerful and can deal much damage, but only if you can hit. The enemies are moving, so you must get closer to them, making you an easier target to them, and death tennos can not attack. If you want to be safe and not get so close you will only able to hit them if you have a polearm or a whip with range mods, otherwise you will miss.

For this the only idea that I have is to add a damage reduction while you perform the charge, but it wouldn't have much sense or it would be too over powered.

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1 minute ago, UndPanzer said:

don't try to complain about it, DE doens't like criticism about their changes 

DE does as long as you're not cursing them out and generally being a jerk about it.

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I wish simplified combo imput, with Light and Heavy attacks on separate buttons. It will make combat more diverse and engaging.

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As others have said, if there's a translation for channeling mods coming with these changes, what will happen with the Zenurik channeling passive? 

With the changes to combos, will decay change or be removed?  If yes, what will combo window effects become? 

Will Naramon's combo decay passive reduce the combo consumption for heavy attacks? 

With what I understand they said about the melee charge attack change, how will that effect thrown melee?  Holding the key down is how you throw the thing, will you have to ramp up combo to get a throw, or will there be a "light" throw, or increased reach on most attacks, or what? 

Is there a plan for the dual-wield feature to allow for slam attacks now? 

Overall, it seems like good stuff, just cutting away a few things rather than trying to hot glue them into a cleaner system.  I also appreciate how it seems the new idea seems to reduce the "wind up" aspect that makes me, at least, feel like you need to either go all or none with melee. 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

This has me excited to read the sentence, but worried because of what I saw and the last few stances to come out. 

This game's about moments and experiences for me, standing around isn't fun, charging into a Nox and realizing that I might need to pull out the bag of tricks is.  Simaris targets are guilt-traps that steal that moment of cathartic satisfaction...unless I realize that I'm alone and can finish hitting it.  I like it better when things hit back.

Excited because it enables what I want (mobile, flowing melee) like this, but more and better...and challenging me to be less derpy 

giphy.webp

I'll add that this is YOUR fault for making jumping around so fun.  You led me here, I am the victim. 🙂

A little worried because...what I saw in the video is more like what I'd like to experience when I'm quick meleeing (and everyone should always get to experience without much dedication).

I want going into a stance to reward me with mobility.  There should be a reward for putting away our guns that isn't 'more damage and less parkour'

I'm not saying that damage isn't important...for me (and I know I'm not alone) melee is about getting up close and personal with something that can hit back. Right now I can only experience that with a few stances (Clashing Forest and Final Harbinger fans aplenty are in this game).

What's got me worried is the last few stances have been kind of jolty and hard to combine with parkour, so in practical play they're only useful when standing still.  Some have timing combos that add mobility, but pause and hold combos are kind of pointless when you've got attack speed ramping coming from all over the place.

I'm feeling like this type of melee isn't being talked about much, despite it being cathartic fun and those of us playing that way are just begging for more engagement.  

Can we have stances that are just 'hold to attack and add buttons to flow into parkour type destruction'?  Ones that are designed to make melee into a dance?

Edited by FreeWilliam
Giphy link of warframe gameplay seems not to work
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2 minutes ago, Lancars said:

DE does as long as you're not cursing them out and generally being a jerk about it.

no they don't, i said i was just sad about the changes and wanted they to know it, din't swear at them didn't intimidate them or anything, just a simple complain and they removed my comment, it's not new to me that DE hates people who try to do long runs in survival or any kind of game mode, they will nerf ivara now and will kill long run players once and for all 

Edited by UndPanzer
just some changes

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I know, i know, its a bit early to make feedback on *considered* changes to melee channeling during the devstream. But from what ive gathered theyre thinking about removing the melee channel for bonus damage aspect. I strongly advise against this because its a good energy sink for frames that have excess energy and want a little extra oomph temporarily and burn off some energy.

 

Im fully aware everything isnt set in stone until the patch goes live. Im just voicing some concern here

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29 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

While it would be nice to have all these functions available on a unified combat mode, keep in mind that console controllers are pressed for space as it is.

Warframe, when it first released, had a unified mode, and no melee-only combat. There was no channelling, no blocking without the Reflect mod, no combo counter, or anything. When they did Melee 2.0, they were able to add all those features, because they could repurpose some of the buttons that previously were bound to gun-related combat.

If there were a unified mode, how could we block or channel or have charged attacks without using any additional buttons?

Hey that's a very valid question as I'm well aware that Warframe is limited by the mappings console players have.  Here is a sampling of mappings Console players could utilize:

  • The elimination of the command required to go into 'melee mode' frees up a mapping.
  • Left Stick Press + Right Stick Press
  • Left Bumper Press + Left Bumper Press
  • Melee + Aim
  • Melee + Left Stick Press
  • etc

It's no more complex than the advanced mappings available in proven games like Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden.  Especially for high end gameplay in those games where move cancelling requires one's had to mutate into an octopus.

However, the main problem is the challenge level of Warframe's dumb as dirt AI and mobs.  We collectively could unite all our ideas into the ultimate combat system but what's the point if DE is committed to forever drive the challenge of Warframe down into the bowels of the Earth?  Many players will think, "Yeah I could execute this fancy ass combo on an enemy OR you know... I can just spam my ability and weapons where the enemies have no common sense counter measures (ex: Zenistar, Bastille, etc)."

But I guess we should stick to one thing at a time. 😉

Edited by lihimsidhe

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Admittedly the more I think about this the more aggravated I get.

Why do you keep dumbing everything down? We saw firsthand Khora go from a truly interesting idea to fodderframe. There's literally no tweaks you can do to her that'll honor what she could have been. Now instead of getting creative, we're just stripping everything interesting out of melee so we don't have to think anymore? Melee could use some tuneups and a few rebalances/restrictions, but why do we need such a drastic overhaul? Unless you're willing to commit to full action game quality mechanics, I literally see no point to this.

What system are we destroying next in the name of "fun?" Maybe we should just get rid of mods and make all weapons just level up and get stronger. 

Dumbing mechanics down makes all of us weaker. Games should get MORE sophisticated as time goes, not the opposite.

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:cool: good good good finnaly the nerf where almost everyone have waited on

see whats next on the list to be nerfed aswell after this one is gone 

 

-- Devs how about LOS abilitys for warframes --- there are to many that didn't got any

 

talking about balance 

the next thing you know we are all running with Equinox Maim spam poo or Saryn Toxinator

Give those LOS .. We didnt want to become Meta .. ? thats what i have seen over the years in this community OP isnt allowed and still .. 

:facepalm:

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Finally, skill returns to melee. Not going to feel sorry for the countless masses that ruined one of my katana killing sprees by spinning with a whip that will have to readjust to being good at the game.

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28 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I mostly use quick-melee, so I'm really worried about the combo counter changes. The base damage of weapons getting buffed is super nice, but if it isn't able to overcome a typical combo counter (i.e. ~2.5x-3x) then this is going to be bad news for players who don't block or channel.

TBF, if the average combo is around 2.5-3x, then doing like a 2.75 multiplier on weapon damages should pretty much match what we've got now, no? Sure it doesn't go as high as 3.5x or 4x but on the other hand, it starts off more powerful. On average, probably works out about the same, I would figure.

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23 minutes ago, sixmille said:

It's absolutely not a melee nerf but a nice, welcome change to melee. First we'll be able to get rid off one melee mod, then they're significantly increasing base damage, and finally, none of us knows exactly how all of this is going to work. You will be able to play without caring about the counter. Let's be honest, how many times did you have it above 2.5 during normal play? It's not that big of a deal.

Don't go with your gut feelings. Wait for the real thing, test it thoroughly then report your experience. We've had the same people crying "nerf" about the beam weapon changes and the devs stuck to their guns and it ended up being awesome.

I'm excited, but it's definitely a nerf. DE was very clear about certain things that prove they are nerfing melee. They flat out said they are nerfing spin2win and there will be no more clipping with range mods.

They're nerfing overall DPS, but it seems like they're buffing melee gameplay. This isn't like the beam weapons rework. Melee is currently the strongest weapon type in the game. They're not making them stronger. They'll probably just be more fun to use and less cheesy.  

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With the snap of DE's Fingers they can wipe half of the melee players in the game!

*DE Snaps Fingers*

Atterax: "I don't feel so good"

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I saw the two videos and, my god, that looks fantastic, yes, please! No more spin to win, no more whips through the walls, no more whips with more range than a spore saryn!!!.

The slam attack looks so great, , i can't wait to test it by myself.

Kudos, nicely done DE

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I'm just fearing what will happen to Life Strike, being the only reason I care about Channeling at all.

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