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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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8 hours ago, V0LK said:

I'm not defending killing through walls, but enemies can get you through walls. Eximus can drain you, one pixel of Nullifier bubble one floor below can ruin your day. Will you fix this too?

Personally, I have encountered a Nullifier (corrupted one though) not dispelling my buffs when he was one platform above me, not sure if being Obi-wan'd mattered there.

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@[DE]Rebecca  are there any updates on the pipeline of when possibly we will have this rework live? Or are there any plans of showcasing us some footage of the work in progress of this rework?

Edited by Ryoushin

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Maybe this shouln't  be done as an standalone thing. What I mean is that it's fine to do a melee rework but the problem might be even deeper than just the insane amount of dmg you can deal with combo counters, Weeping Wounds, Blood Rush and Maiming Strike. The two other big problems are enemy scaling and damage types!

With the insane Grinner armor scaling at higher levels either a high critical damage or high status chance is indispensable, and personally I hate we have to rely so heavily on slash damage (It doesn't even makes sense! Sure, my blade can't even scratch the enemy's armor, yet he'll bleed to death anyway). And now that I've talked about slash... the other damage types need to be buffed or rebalanced  for sure! Why do we even have magnetic damage (like... at all) when toxin damage can bypass shields at 100%? Same with impact damage! No matter whether it's effective agaist shields when the absurd slash status can bypass anything! And of course it's just the same with puncture (Why reduce armor when you can just bypass it?). The damage types as they are now, work totally against the seemingly ideal concept of specializing your dmg regarding the type of enemy you're going against (that sounds really cool for me)

Now take those mechanics away... and without a rebalancing in scaling this game'd become nearly unplayable at high levels. I've not said anything really new though (just pointed out the elephant in the room) yet wanted to try to remind you that treating the problem only from one of its several issues as a single thing can't fix the entire system.

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As said in the mega post on the first page, making Melee and firearms combo smoothly should be a thing and a high priority:

Combo's shouldn't be exclusively melee but also intergrate firearms in there as well, this will make firearms as much part of the combo as the melee weapon itself.It would make the game incrfedibly dynamic!

Just think about it, couple swings, blast blast with a side arm and the continue the melee chain for added damage. Now that would give you style points.

Being able to lift up enemies in the air and do proper air combo's would be insane for both CC and gameplay

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I don't have time to read all 53 pages, so i will ask: How will this rework affect to Maiming Strike?

Edited by Ryuurik
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15 hours ago, Ryuurik said:

I don't have time to read all 53 pages, so i will ask: How will this rework affect to Maiming Strike?

Considering that some of the devs absolutely loathe it and its overall effect on the game with the "spin to win" mentality it enabled and encouraged...

... expect it to be nucked from orbit, pray that they don't overkill anything else in their quest for revenge X_X

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For channeling, I've been thinking about this for a while and I thought how to implement it so it wouldn't be too energy costly and blends well for both PvE and PvP.

Just like DE wrote, channeling is blocking and blocking is channeling. So, how is channeling gonna work if you want to use channeling mods like Life Strike? And making Prime armor pieces trigger channeling exclusive features? Well, it's simple actually, here's how my channeling system is gonna work.

When blocking, it triggers channeling, but it needs to be charged in order to use it to it's fullest potential. While charging (which is blocking), you take a percentage of reduced damage depending on what melee weapon you use.

The time it takes for melee weapon to be channeled is 3 seconds and mods will not change the charging time. Channeling cost is increased to 20, but it's there for a reason. After your Warframe and melee weapon glow very bright, press the melee attack button while blocking and now you are in channeling mode. Channeling mode lasts for 15 seconds (duration can be increased with mods), and it will be disabled after the time has run out.

While in channeling mode, when blocking or attacking an enemy, energy won't deplete so you can freely slice your enemies and take no damage while blocking. Enemies who attack you while you are channel blocking will be instantly staggered, leaving them open for finisher attacks. However, if an enemy attacks you with a channeled melee weapon while you have channeling mode on, they can break the block, leaving you staggered for a moment. This will also work with enemies such as Kuva Guardians. If you attack them with a channeled melee weapon, they will be staggered just like you Void Blasted them with your Operator.

With this system in place, it will work nicely in both PvE and PvP. You will never have to worry about losing huge chunks of energy while blocking or attacking multiple enemies.

EDIT: Also, if you don't want channeling to be activated for accidental reasons, just let go of blocking.

Edited by Rob12772
Changed how to trigger channeling mode and how to disable channeling before activating it.

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Personally with gram prime comming i would like to see it go live by july 30th if not we'll see it with venus in late October 

Because of all the content were going to see major changes to everything in warframe but its all good things like tophat moa for limbo prime 

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Focus and melee channeling seem to line up really well to me. I think it would be cool to see melee channeling use some focus abilities like a channeled charge attack doing a void blast and maybe using the focus perks. Both mechanics seem under used and they have allot of parallels. Like how charge attacks are similar to void blast and Blocking is similair void mode.

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Most everyone has asked about other channelling mods, what about the respective schools? Are the changes going to be universal, or are the schools going to have the path nodes completely changed?

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On 2018-07-12 at 6:48 PM, radastir said:

And just more important, how will the Edo Prime armor's lightning effects be affected when channeling is gone? 😉

@[DE]Rebecca, because the next unvaulting is coming soon... ❤️

What does it matter if next prime vault is coming soon? They havent confirmed edo would be part of it. Aswell volt is the one who has edo prime with him.

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11 hours ago, Valmarr said:

5a5cc3acbff70.jpeg

But seriously, leave my Lack of skill alone*

Fixed it for you.

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vor 48 Minuten schrieb Aleksi134:

Fixed it for you.

its still not maiming strikes "fault" but blood rush's broken math. exclude slide crit from its calculation and everyone is more or less happy. u could still slide without realising that its totally nerfed dead. im no fan of s2w either, quite opposite actually, but no need to 100% kill slide crit. diversity must still have its fair share.

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I do see this working,  and I don't really care what happens, to be fair this seems lie a good idea, but the new combo counter system is not going to work with all melees, As demonstrated in those GIF's, the warframe was using a sword, where this combat makes sense, but no one can at all tell me this is going to be the case for glaives, that just does not sound right, melee attacking and then throwing, when I use a glaive I primarily just throw it most the time as a backup weapon when dual wielding with a secondary weapon. Though it is possible to make it work, If you can make space ship wars work.

I would like to see maiming strike have a revamp of some sort though. Yeah I do own one, I really just don't like seeing the play style though it just looks more like space grinding machine over space ninja. Being a ninja shouldn't mean spinning around in a circle with "the blender on a string". I do understand people do like the play style and its efficiency, but just like using a spore saryn in onslaught all day, it gets boring and eventually players just stop using it and never learn to use it for its intended use, I.e making use of all the combos and such on a melee weapon, or making use of all of a warframes abilities instead of just building for a  camping puddle hydroid.

Edited by CaptainJLP
"Stuff"

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Dunno if this has been mentioned, but separate the melee key from the finisher key. Being locked into a finisher around enemies can be an easy way to die. Plus, this completely nulls the effectiveness of the Exodia Arcane the pulls in enemies on finishers.

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On 2018-07-12 at 11:02 AM, Ryuurik said:

I don't have time to read all 53 pages, so i will ask: How will this rework affect to Maiming Strike?

It wont do anything to Maiming Strike. That obviously staged gif of some idiot spinning into a wall is just to distract you. Quite the opposite actually.

The buff to base damage and removal of combo meter being useful will make front loading damage the new meta. Primed Reach, Primed Pressure, Organ Shatter, Maiming Strike, Primed Fever Strike and 3x 90% elements, on Guandao, Zaws whatever. Try it out now, compare it to a Slash based Maiming Build. You'll end up doing the same/ more depending on the elemental weaknesses of the faction you're fighting. It doesn't matter what the heavy slams do, its a matter of taking time building up combo to burn on one attack vs. an instantaneous strike.

As for the rest... channeling =/= blocking is terrible. Aim-gliding would cost energy. When you try to block, since you can't stop 100% of the incoming damage, you're losing health and energy. Will Life Strike still work? Will Valk and Excal's 4's drain even more energy?

Sad thing is, alot of combos let you travel faster over a greater distance and dish out more swings and therefore damage per second. Lookin' at you Final Harbinger and Tempo Royale. And a proper Elemental combo will deal an additional +75% bonus damage at the end of the damage calculation against enemies weak to it, not to mention other nice things, like procs or Radiation ignoring 75% of Alloy armor in ADDITION to dealing an extra 75% damage on top of it. But it isn't the players fault for not knowing about this. It isn't explained beyond some symbols with +'s and -'s next to it.

As for unifying combos themselves, there should only be 3 universal inputs. Hold block, hold left, and hold right. Hold forward combo? You're gonna get stuck doing it continuously. Hold back combo? You're kidding, right? But, the proposed channeling change ruins that possibility. :facepalm: I wouldn't be surprised to get a bunch of pauses that become impossible to do with a bit of speed increase.

If the point of this rework is to nerf melee wholesale by using misconceptions about Maiming Strike as an excuse, while not actually doing anything about Maiming Strike itself, then what's outlined was somewhat well thought out. If the purpose is to make melee more "fun", then it shares alot with Damage 2.5, in that it only accomplishes the exact opposite of what it's supposed to.

As for an actual "fix"? Easy.
- 250% max +range cap on melee weapons
- 20 second max duration on combo timer decay
- all combo inputs are Hold Block/ Left/ Right
- no Whip, Greatsword or Polearm Riven can have a disposition higher than 3/5
- reduce Scoliac's diposition

Don't feel like balancing around Rivens? Too bad. They're the reason you get new players complaining about Maiming Strike. Maiming doesn't give you +365% total range boost and allow you to hit the entire room. Maiming doesn't give you a 30 second combo timer decay that never runs out for the entire mission, meaning you only do more and more damage. The only actual use Maiming strike has against very high level enemies, or the Scoliac build responsible for all the the Maiming hate is to max out berserker. It's the + Range + Combo Timer + Attack Speed Rivens. Nerfing melee as a weapon class to avoid confronting a problem you created isn't alright. That's the real problem. "How do we address the issues created by Riven's without affecting their desirability."

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i think on note of the melee nihillian has a good idea here, maybe even implementing a combo style system like in bayonetta or devil may cry. and for the love of god, allow us to holster our guns in different ways like you do melee weapons, we should be allowed to modify how we have our firearms slung during non use.

On 2018-07-11 at 9:19 PM, Nihillian said:

As said in the mega post on the first page, making Melee and firearms combo smoothly should be a thing and a high priority:

Combo's shouldn't be exclusively melee but also intergrate firearms in there as well, this will make firearms as much part of the combo as the melee weapon itself.It would make the game incrfedibly dynamic!

Just think about it, couple swings, blast blast with a side arm and the continue the melee chain for added damage. Now that would give you style points.

Being able to lift up enemies in the air and do proper air combo's would be insane for both CC and gameplay

 

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I made this idea to save many mods like life strike, that required the channeling. with something called the "rage mode":

 

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On 2018-07-12 at 11:48 AM, radastir said:

And just more important, how will the Edo Prime armor's lightning effects be affected when channeling is gone?

I don't care about Edo Prime, but I have been wondering about the same thing because of my Acanthus Prime shoulders. I don't even use channeling but I press the button just to watch my shoulder spikes extend and glow. <.<

On 2018-07-11 at 9:19 PM, Nihillian said:

incrfedibly dynamic!

I had entirely too much fun reading this and sitting here in my office trying to actually say "incrfedibly" out loud....

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My new fear is that Melee 3.0 necessitates an enemy rework to be truly successful.  If you change melee mechanics/dynamics but you're still swinging away at the thing that behaves super-similarly to the same thing 3 years ago, I don't know if we'd really be able to gauge the success of the melee rework.

Can I launch a Bombard or Ancient on an opening strike if I have built up combo? 

What about bosses?

DE hasn't mentioned anything that I can remember about a Melee 3.0 + An Enemy Rework, but I think the two have to go hand in hand...

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On 2018-07-16 at 5:18 AM, Aleksi134 said:

Fixed it for you.

Fair enough, but easy is easy.

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On 2018-07-16 at 2:18 AM, Aleksi134 said:
On 2018-07-15 at 3:16 PM, Valmarr said:

5a5cc3acbff70.jpeg

But seriously, leave my Lack of skill alone*

Fixed it for you.

one_slashy_boi.png

Fixed your fix so your fix could really be fixed

mate ❤️

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