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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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Channeling Focus shouldn't be tied to the Void Energy Pool of the Warframe.  Energy is so critical to what makes the abilities that define the nature of the Warframe  that spending energy as a form of ammo for your sword doesn't feel like a practical trade-off.  You don't ask this of Firearms, yet Guns are just as effective at the goal of burning down enemies as quickly as possible.  Instead firearms use their own resource, ammo.  Melee should be similar, except you build up a charge by connecting combo's of repeated strikes on targets. You then spend that charge through channeling to enhance and enable more powerful forms of attacks, AoE, Crowd Control, Knockdowns/knowbacks and finishers (ect). 

  • If you had a separate Focus bar for building up combo's you could segment the bar into tiers that trigger increasing damage or chance multipliers as the segments fill up.  Then players could trigger bonus actions by pressing the focus button during combo sequences to add specialty actions to the sequence.  Different bonus actions would spend different amounts of the accumulated Focus on the bar. Such as a heavy ground-slam AoE Interrupt for 1 bar segment, or a Mega Finisher for 3 segments.

In order for a Combo System to function, it needs to be effective and reliable. The current system I find cumbersome.  5 button combo's are not reliable. Locking players into animations that are dependent on timing buttons is not consistent. Hold a button just a tad too long, or not long enough or pressed out of sequence and suddenly your Warframe is trapped in an unintended sequence that is difficult to reset without stopping for a moment that could get you killed. Compounding the sense of "desync" in your timing of actions, this is made worse by the sense of network latency being a factor in how responsive combo's feel. In some situations I can reliably execute a basic attack reliably on demand... in other situations, not for the life of me.

  • Imagine this like Street Fighter II: Everyone can perform Ryu's Fireball consistently, yet very few people (in my neighborhood growing up) could ever get Zangief's 360 pile-diver to execute on command when it was desirable.

I don't want to see Melee be reduced to mashing one button, but that's all hosing down individual targets or AoE nuking groups of them essentially amounts to when using firearms and Warframe abilities. Even if I could consistently perform the finger-gymnastics required to execute fancy channeled melee combo's reliably on cue, what is the point of troubling yourself when a fellow teammate blows away the same targets from a far with a gun or his super power ability?  At that point it's about it solely being fun to melee and not being the most effective tactic to advance to the next wave of enemies. 

So, if you are going to add depth to the mechanics of melee with a lattice of these extra actions a player has to perform over and above that expected of shooting guns and casting abilities... then you need to deliver a proportionately more spectacular payoff for the effort of learning the skills and putting in the effort to make it work as a system.

Combos should be simpler to execute reliably, and most importantly, dynamically in real-time under the hectic action of gameplay.  On paper, it seems feasible to have 5 button combo's with intricate animations that look awesome, but when you factor in actual gameplay conditions over an internet connection, these are not practical. Reliably executing the timing of some of these actions over a network is unreliable at times and that can be frustrating and ineffective. Being locked into even a simple animation sequence of 1 second can be very disruptive to the flow of control a player fells over their character when it triggers an unwanted combo sequence. Oddly enough, this isn't a problem with longer animation sequences where it is obvious what is happening, such as when I Stealth Kill, Ground Pound or my favorite, mount and wolverine an enemy with my Venka.  

Combos should be quick to execute reliably. Each combo on a Stance Mod should be labelled with a purpose. For example;

  • STRIP - A short rapid sequence of attacks designed to damage the target by stripping hit points off of it and building up combo multipliers (or focus charge).
  • OPENER - Targets are protected from being stripped of their health using Armor, Shields and their own counters like Dodging, Blocking and Slams. An Opener is designed to open up a target to make it more vulnerable to being stripped, knocked down or having a finisher used on them.  Openers are designed to apply Status Procs to Targets to soften them up.
  • INTERRUPT - An attack designed to interrupt a targets current action (Like a MOA preparing to stomp the ground). Interrupts opt to generally stun, knockback or knockdown targets giving the player space to move or as a means of mitigating harm or momentarily hobbling an agile target.

Stringing multiple sequences of STRIPs, OPENERs and INTERRUPTs into unbroken chains create more intricate combo's that can lead to larger payoffs like mega finishers or AoE and Crowd-Control effects.  Consideration should perhaps also be given to things like:

  • TRANSITIONS - After killing the current target, an action that transitions the player into a position to attack the next nearby target so the combo chain can continue. Such as an automatic dash or bounding-glide into the next target.
  • GRAPPLE - Mount large enemies to directly deal damage to vulnerable locations. Or propel small targets away from the player, using them like a projectile to rag-doll additional enemies as a finisher combined into an interrupt.

Lastly, some issues with the current melee actions I'm having are related to the previously mentioned mechanical problems of performing an action over the network.  Simply put, actions that relate to timing a button (long press, short press) are not always registered or are easy to misuse. ie: Accidentally press too long or let go to soon. This is common in frantic situations when mauled by a group of enemies and I might use too much pressure on a button triggering a long press instead of a short one which breaks a combo sequence causing everything to fail.  Which is frustrating and can make melee combo's more cumbersome and unreliable to perform on top of the basic mechanic itself.

I am also frequently prone to experiencing failed actions that involve looking up or down. Such as aiming down at a fallen enemy to execute the ground-pound attack.  Sometimes this is flawless, other times, usually in very hectic situations, this fails to register even though I'm clearly and deliberately standing over the target looking straight down at them.  I suspect this is a network issue and executing this action faster then the game detects that I am looking down, before attacking it.  Or it could just be a hit-detection problem and not sensing that I am actually aiming at a fallen target.  It is especially noticeable when the downed enemy is on a slope and not level with the player.

I would therefore suggest not relying on these prerequisites to executing combo's in any sequence too much if at all.  Better to use alternating buttons that can be easier to definitively detect a deliberate separate action. And of course, keep the button chains short, thus more reliable to execute and easier to remember.

 

In closing, I don't think Melee is broken. It just needs some mechanical tuning to adjust how effectively it achieves the desired result of being as practical to employ as it is fun and cool looking to watch and play.

 

Edited by Schpam
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Changing channeling is really something I don't see worth doing. One key advantage of melee is the ability to use Life Strike for reflexive healing, and it's an advantage that is important for melee. If anything, the only "problem" there is that you have to take Life Strike for channeling to be worth anything.

Complex sequences and single-target based qualifiers for attacks would not work in Warframe. Warframe is a fast-paced horde killing game (which is also why the projected change to heavy attacks does not work; heavy attacks right now are simply incompatible with Warframe's basic gameplay model), it is simply too fast and goes through individual enemies too rapidly for such a combo system to work. This is the problem of the present too, the only properly working combos are basic, RMB hold, and forward hold, everything else is too unreliable for sufficiently fast swing speed. The proper way to improve combos is to instead have more than one attack button and MAYBE have holding down RMB change the combo each of those have.

The key to game design is the same as to engineering, you want just what you need for the job, not all you could have for the job. Having something that's simple, focused and polished will work better than having something that's needlessly complex.

 

13 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

I mean, if you watch any Kung Fu movie or just play games in which a character uses only their fists, you'll see that every single strike uses the fighter's whole body. The power behind their punches staggers the opponent and throw them backwards so when they combine their moves(combo) they usually attack while moving forward to not let up on the pressure. Here Your tenno attacks while keeping himself in place. This is what reduces the range in which your attacks hit. There are also many spinning attacks in martal arts, that in a real fight would not be practical because our punches and kicks would be stopped by an enemy's body. Tenno and their warframes are powerful enough that they can simple remove the enemy out of the way, so a single body would not stop the momentum of their attacks. I don't mind hitting only a few enemies, as long as the immediate threats are dealt with in a timely manner, while not losing mobility in the process, I can see that Fist and Sparring weapons could be made to work if only they had that mobility. Some claw combos can provide this, because its animations are easy to control and they are fast enough that you can simply move after the punishment. However the same cannot be said of Fist and Sparring weapons.  

Indeed Warframes aren't subject to human limitations anyway so there's little need to even try to be "realistic" with how the moves can look and work. There's no problem in an attack animation that would simply be impossible for anyone to actually pull off, what's required is simply proper flourish and game functionality.

Mobility for melee in Warframe is kind of a strange thing, since while the game has an extensive melee option the basic control scheme is one of a third person shooter. Since you are essentially always forward-facing, your mobility has to rather reflect ability to reorient that forward facing and have the option to either stand still or move forward fast while keeping up the meatgrinder. With a proper set up you'll always be within potential swinging range with a good weapon and stance, and you optimally want to always be within swinging range since the you want a single combo to kill entire groups of enemies at minimum and constantly moving to the next group. These are things Fist and Sparring are outstandingly bad at doing and maintaining, since they have no knockdown protection whatsoever and they only hit only a small area while the only forward moving attacks tend to be unwieldy to use, hit poorly, and/or are next to impossible to truly control.

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My big question is "WHERE IS MELEE 3.0 RIGHT NOW?"

Devstream 113 seemed to imply that something was very much in the works and on its way...

I am curious where they had to stop taking feedback/suggestions just to keep the update/change moving forward.

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They pretty much confirmed it was near completion and just being polished up, and that we would have a deep dive into it on the next Devstream.  Man, I wish the stream was this Friday and we didn't have to wait until next week to hear more!

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)Touha9 said:

They pretty much confirmed it was near completion and just being polished up, and that we would have a deep dive into it on the next Devstream.  Man, I wish the stream was this Friday and we didn't have to wait until next week to hear more!

That's the impression I got as well.

Guess we'll have to wait a little less than 2 weeks to see the 3.0 dev build [fingers crossed].

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After reading through the thread and having awhile to contemplate on melee in its current state and the changes that want to be implemented, here are a few of my thoughts! 

1. Melee should always have been blocked by solid objects! The change to finally stop melee passing through, well everything, is long overdue! 

2. "Spin to Win" has also been long overdue for a rework! The mechanic is okay, but the combination of ranged melee weapons, weapons passing through objects, and the ability to mod for insane damage on spin attacks really made it the go to way to dispatch hordes of enemies! 

The main problem really comes from the ability to slide attack and roll, slide, and bullet jump indefinitely. Dodge mechanics would be a non-issue if they didn't cover more ground than running and the enemies weren't so spread out! 

Decrease the distance dodge maneuvers cover, but only decrease bullet jumps a little! An overall decrease in distance would actually let us benefit more from mods that give us bonuses for dodge mechanics! 

3. Percentage based modding can be a major issue in a game where a spin to win melee is a problem. Giving us a percentage based system allows us to reach absurd damage values and can cause us to abuse the system rather than use the system. 

 I'm not going to go into the calculations, but when you have higher number values, any increase by percentage will provide significant increase overall to damage values. Adding in Maiming Strike which gives a flat 90% to be a critical hit on top of a high range, high damage, high critical chance, high critical damage, combo counter building, Blood Rush modded Atterax; you could easily get damage values bordering on the absurd! 

Maiming Strike isn't really the problem, the combination of all of these things (percentage based damage values, range, combo counter, etc...) plus Maiming Strike has put us in the current "Spin to Win" situation. 

The only way to fix this is to give us one system of modding that doesn't use a percentage based system that compounds the problem by using more percentage based options! We need more flat numerical additions as opposed to exponential increases! If I need to do x amount of damage I don't need to (insert convoluted Blood Rush critical chance damage value calculation here)! 

4. Channeling shouldn't be combined with blocking, but should be integrated into more mods to give it an actual use. 

5. Charge attacks are okay, again, when it is easier to slide and spin, the feature won't be used. 

 

 

Really, the main issue is the modding system giving us increases to damage values that are already good and not increasing damage values that aren't very good. Mods like Maiming Strike help bad weapons become better by giving us a flat increase instead of a percentage. All of the other issues such as channeling and "spin to win" really are just symptoms. 

I've tried to offer my opinion on changes, but frankly any rework that tries to fix things that are cheese (spin to win) and fix things that are niche (channeling) isn't going to change a thing until the mod system is looked at! I sound like a broken record... 

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Will the mod [Dispatch Overdrive] grant a movement speed buff from blocking, or finisher kills?

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1 hour ago, Nompii said:

Will the mod [Dispatch Overdrive] grant a movement speed buff from blocking, or finisher kills?

Would make more sense to use Heavy Attack kill, no?

In general the channelin mods should be moved to heavies:

Lifestrike - lifesteal on heavy attack.

Killing Blow - heavy attack damage.

So on and so forth.

Channeling efficiency could be "combo cost."

Edited by DiabolusUrsus
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I pretty much like everything here. Build combo attacks with light hits, then spend the damage in a heavy unit, like a Bombard, Tech, or Ancient. As the the blocking side, parrying or the counterattacking needs to be more functional, as it seems kind of random at the moment. Also for blocking attacks, ranged or otherwise, maybe the dreaded little green bar should come back, JUST for that?

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so instead of applying 5-10 hits you charge one attack that deals maybe triple damage and lose combo stacks on top of it. doesnt really sound fun at all, especially since if you have combos anywhere, you want to keep them as high as possible. I do quite like the Devil May Cry series and other games with such combat systems and for having only one melee button, warframe is nowhere close to those in regards of a good combo system. Melee combat is what I like most in warframe and using maiming rarely to never, I dont see it as an issue at all. as for slam attacks, I hate using them, for the very same reason I dont use hammers. if the enemy flies away, you cant hit him. heavy attacks are, as I already said, not worth at all the time it takes to perform them. Combo counter is also pretty much the only way, some weapons like the okina, dual daggers in general and other ultra short range weapons can compete decently with other weapons, as only through this they can get close to anything with more range in terms of damage. So by taking away damage on the combo counter short ranged low-mid base damage become even worse in terms of damage.

For the whole rework to be better, take a step back, look at the whole combat system and enemies and rework it from ground, bandaiding one weapon type after the other without a visible or general combat in regards to scaling, enemy density, damage tiers, advantages of using a specific weapon is counterproductive at this point.

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7 hours ago, Takkov said:

so instead of applying 5-10 hits you charge one attack that deals maybe triple damage and lose combo stacks on top of it. doesnt really sound fun at all, especially since if you have combos anywhere, you want to keep them as high as possible. I do quite like the Devil May Cry series and other games with such combat systems and for having only one melee button, warframe is nowhere close to those in regards of a good combo system. Melee combat is what I like most in warframe and using maiming rarely to never, I dont see it as an issue at all. as for slam attacks, I hate using them, for the very same reason I dont use hammers. if the enemy flies away, you cant hit him. heavy attacks are, as I already said, not worth at all the time it takes to perform them. Combo counter is also pretty much the only way, some weapons like the okina, dual daggers in general and other ultra short range weapons can compete decently with other weapons, as only through this they can get close to anything with more range in terms of damage. So by taking away damage on the combo counter short ranged low-mid base damage become even worse in terms of damage.

For the whole rework to be better, take a step back, look at the whole combat system and enemies and rework it from ground, bandaiding one weapon type after the other without a visible or general combat in regards to scaling, enemy density, damage tiers, advantages of using a specific weapon is counterproductive at this point.

From what I understand, you don't lose combo stacks "on top of it", you deal triple (or more) damage because of the combo stacks. If you do the heavy attack without a combo stack, you do slightly-more-than-a-regular-attack damage. And combo stacks are a) not going to increase base damage as much, and b) ramp up much more quickly, so you can get a 4x multiplier in (as an example) a minute or two, rather than spending ten minutes building those stacks. But the 4x multiplier won't actually increase your light attack damage by that much, if at all.

Edited by motorfirebox

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On 2018-07-29 at 5:59 PM, motorfirebox said:

From what I understand, you don't lose combo stacks "on top of it", you deal triple (or more) damage because of the combo stacks. If you do the heavy attack without a combo stack, you do slightly-more-than-a-regular-attack damage. And combo stacks are a) not going to increase base damage as much, and b) ramp up much more quickly, so you can get a 4x multiplier in (as an example) a minute or two, rather than spending ten minutes building those stacks. But the 4x multiplier won't actually increase your light attack damage by that much, if at all. 

If you perform a heavy or slam attack, combo charges are used as fuel to deal more damage. But there is no reason to change anything, if it is only a change to how melee combat works. The enemy scaling wont change, weapons that can get decent damage out of a combination of many status procs and combo multiplier will get respectively worse as weapons with higher stats turn way more powerfull in comparsion. Heavy attacks and slam attacks feel very out of place in the game, in my opinion, so that I never use them. Especially slam attacks tend to knock enemies away from you which is annoying. I feel that with this so called rework many of the core issues of the game are still not addressed at all. Those would be: enemy scaling and weapon power levels in accordance to that. I will agree that the combo system in the way it is now is fairly flawed. On the other hand I dont see an improvement in the one presented. Building up combo's should be a rewarding experience for skillfull play, which in horde games is usually measured by: how fast can I kill? The combo system also is only for melee weapons. In a better approach to the whole "Tenno are masters of all weapons" concept, the combo counter should extend to all equipped weapons. If you want to take DMC as an example: If you hit an enemy with your sword, you gain combo stacks, if you do so again, you gain more of it. But if you just continue using the same combo all the time, there is no increase at some point. Because of that you are encouraged to learn the multiple combos and perform them in successions, finding an optimal way. Included in that are also your ranged weapons, which you can use to maintain your multiplier, if you use ebony and ivory, or with other weapons massively increase it by spending a lot of ammo. In addition, you also use abilities to keep up with enemies, land hits or kill enemies, so you can also increase said combo mulitplier by that.

I think, that if warframe approached something like a combo system, that is rewarding for using different weapons in a fight, then there would be quite a lot more potential to the whole thing than just by changing numbers on the melee weapons a bit.

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Make Melee great again! *Cough*

Well, only release will show, but...

Han Solo looks around cautiously, stating "I've got a bad feeling about this..."

Live Feed of a recycling facility for melee weapons with maiming capabilities (they're about to be maimed).

Combo-Counter
Bad, bad idea. The one thing that allowed scaling damage for a good while shall be sacrificed for a charge attack nobody cares about? I'm not convinced the enhanced general melee damage will really cut it for long...

Combos
I do not know a single person deliberately using stance combos. Do you?

Atm. they're simply not worth it. And even before Maiming Strike was a thing, they were not worth it, too little effect, too long to trigger. Combos better be easy and doable on the move or have incredible benefits like a badass AOE, buff, debuff etc. If they just look fancy like the combos in the absolutely ridiculous Cetus demo, this will be the result:

giphy.gif
 

Careful, Icarus!
Before you get too ambitious with changes and extra animations again, look at how your majority of players deals with content: More Power, RRR! Warframe isn't an artful ballet of deady timed moves. It's a power creep's game, where you dispose of your enemies in the quickest way possible. Melee can look cool as [sexual intercourse], if it can't compete with headshots or skill frames, nobody will care for longer than a week.

Don't forget Conditional Overload!
And while you're burying Maiming Strike, don't  forget Conditional Overload (even deadlier!) - no need to wait for Melee 4.0.

Support for the Melee 3.0 release
I organized some professional ladies for your Melee 3.0 release party (nope, no Harrison there):

NYC3559.jpg

Nobody mourns better than a Pro

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Trying to wait patiently for Friday's Devstream announcement....just a few days away until we hopefully get a Melee deep dive look....

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It would be cool if there would be some directional attack that push enemies to the sides you want.

-Dodge left + swing = swing from left side to right, that push enemies to RIGHT.
-dodge right + swing = swing from right side to left, that push enemies to LEFT.

Or maybe something like medium attacks (direction+hold attack for half second)

So there woudl be Light attack, medium attacks, and heavy attacks.

With that you could make an advantage to gather in one ring and then use Charge Attack as finishing move.

Dark Messiah of might and magic have that mechanic with directional hit where you can use it to your advantage when fighting against many enemies, for example to not let them attack you in group, or use map environment. All these mechanics in game (I did not read them all of course just basic) gave me 3 years of having fun.
 

 

Edited by IfritKajiTora

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As someone who melees constantly and gleefully while using the combo counter and channeling like crazy (Dispatch Overdrive for speed and Enduring Affliction to handle heavy targets without meme builds) I'm pretty nervous about melee 3.0

Excited about a couple of bits (directional slams and breaking out of combos in particular...love me some mobility!), but also nervous because it doesn't seem like most of the content creators melee the same way.  

I like channeling and the combo counter buildup because they both give me 'throttles', so I'm not constantly one shotting everything but can quickly build things up against a Nox as needed.

I'm definitely going to withhold judgement, but could we get some verification that people like me have a voice in the dev room too? 

I build to make melee cathartic and fun and it's kind of my therapy.

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I’m all for Melee 3.0 in theory as the system as is needs a shake up. Amongst other things, the “spin to win” mechanic is just awful for the game imo.

Channeling is useless to me (and to a large portion of the community it seems) as I prefer Healing Return over Life Strike and so wouldn’t miss it at all if it just disappeared. 

Charge/heavy attacks are slow and cumbersome and not worth the effort and as mentioned by fellow Tenno, having a timing based combo system that can be neutralised by a bad connection is frustrating and for me personally it halts the flow of combat.

Slam attacks when paired with a Zaw and Exodia Hunt is incredibly useful as being able to perform finishers with any frame almost on demand can get you out of a sticky situation nicely. Even more so if you throw in a fully ranked Arcane Ultimatum as who doesn’t want a flat 600 armour for 20 seconds after performing a finisher?

Schpam really hit the nail on the head a few posts back (and articulated things far better then I could!) and offers some excellent options that will hopefully be looked at by DE. 

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18 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said:

It would be cool if there would be some directional attack that push enemies to the sides you want.

-Dodge left + swing = swing from left side to right, that push enemies to RIGHT.
-dodge right + swing = swing from right side to left, that push enemies to LEFT.

Or maybe something like medium attacks (direction+hold attack for half second)

So there woudl be Light attack, medium attacks, and heavy attacks.

With that you could make an advantage to gather in one ring and then use Charge Attack as finishing move.

Dark Messiah of might and magic have that mechanic with directional hit where you can use it to your advantage when fighting against many enemies, for example to not let them attack you in group, or use map environment. All these mechanics in game (I did not read them all of course just basic) gave me 3 years of having fun.
 

 

"It would be cool if there would be some directional attack that push enemies to the sides you want.

-Dodge left + swing = swing from left side to right, that push enemies to RIGHT.
-dodge right + swing = swing from right side to left, that push enemies to LEFT."

I think this is a horrible idea. I can tell you enemy DISPLACEMENT is detrimental to maintaining damage consistency and will only hinder your team mates and yourself as you'd only

make it harder to damage the enemies.

Dark Messiah and warframe is not the same game so the concept doesn't seem compatible.

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On 2018-07-27 at 2:16 AM, (XB1)ZenithLord 42 said:

After reading through the thread and having awhile to contemplate on melee in its current state and the changes that want to be implemented, here are a few of my thoughts! 

1. Melee should always have been blocked by solid objects! The change to finally stop melee passing through, well everything, is long overdue! 

2. "Spin to Win" has also been long overdue for a rework! The mechanic is okay, but the combination of ranged melee weapons, weapons passing through objects, and the ability to mod for insane damage on spin attacks really made it the go to way to dispatch hordes of enemies! 

The main problem really comes from the ability to slide attack and roll, slide, and bullet jump indefinitely. Dodge mechanics would be a non-issue if they didn't cover more ground than running and the enemies weren't so spread out! 

Decrease the distance dodge maneuvers cover, but only decrease bullet jumps a little! An overall decrease in distance would actually let us benefit more from mods that give us bonuses for dodge mechanics! 

3. Percentage based modding can be a major issue in a game where a spin to win melee is a problem. Giving us a percentage based system allows us to reach absurd damage values and can cause us to abuse the system rather than use the system. 

 I'm not going to go into the calculations, but when you have higher number values, any increase by percentage will provide significant increase overall to damage values. Adding in Maiming Strike which gives a flat 90% to be a critical hit on top of a high range, high damage, high critical chance, high critical damage, combo counter building, Blood Rush modded Atterax; you could easily get damage values bordering on the absurd! 

Maiming Strike isn't really the problem, the combination of all of these things (percentage based damage values, range, combo counter, etc...) plus Maiming Strike has put us in the current "Spin to Win" situation. 

The only way to fix this is to give us one system of modding that doesn't use a percentage based system that compounds the problem by using more percentage based options! We need more flat numerical additions as opposed to exponential increases! If I need to do x amount of damage I don't need to (insert convoluted Blood Rush critical chance damage value calculation here)! 

4. Channeling shouldn't be combined with blocking, but should be integrated into more mods to give it an actual use. 

5. Charge attacks are okay, again, when it is easier to slide and spin, the feature won't be used. 

 

 

Really, the main issue is the modding system giving us increases to damage values that are already good and not increasing damage values that aren't very good. Mods like Maiming Strike help bad weapons become better by giving us a flat increase instead of a percentage. All of the other issues such as channeling and "spin to win" really are just symptoms. 

I've tried to offer my opinion on changes, but frankly any rework that tries to fix things that are cheese (spin to win) and fix things that are niche (channeling) isn't going to change a thing until the mod system is looked at! I sound like a broken record... 

2. "Spin to Win" has also been long overdue for a rework! The mechanic is okay, but the combination of ranged melee weapons, weapons passing through objects, and the ability to mod for insane damage on spin attacks really made it the go to way to dispatch hordes of enemies! 

We don't see this often anymore in games instead you have saryn or mesa or excalibur straight up murdering everything with just their abilities.

3. Percentage based modding can be a major issue in a game where a spin to win melee is a problem. Giving us a percentage based system allows us to reach absurd damage values and can cause us to abuse the system rather than use the system. 

See point 2 it's not an issue anymore. NEXT

... Oh okay so we just drag on the issues about spinning. Welp nevermind.

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I’ve been running lots of Mot and Kuva Survivals recently and it seems that over 50% of the time there’s at least 1 spintowinner in the squad. 

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8 minutes ago, Arrcee said:

I’ve been running lots of Mot and Kuva Survivals recently and it seems that over 50% of the time there’s at least 1 spintowinner in the squad. 

didn't they fix the punch through walls/objects ain't u satisfied yet 

They see me rollin, they hatin :crylaugh:

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5 hours ago, IKenofoxI said:

2. "Spin to Win" has also been long overdue for a rework! The mechanic is okay, but the combination of ranged melee weapons, weapons passing through objects, and the ability to mod for insane damage on spin attacks really made it the go to way to dispatch hordes of enemies! 

We don't see this often anymore in games instead you have saryn or mesa or excalibur straight up murdering everything with just their abilities.

3. Percentage based modding can be a major issue in a game where a spin to win melee is a problem. Giving us a percentage based system allows us to reach absurd damage values and can cause us to abuse the system rather than use the system. 

See point 2 it's not an issue anymore. NEXT

... Oh okay so we just drag on the issues about spinning. Welp nevermind.

Did you intend to actually provide an intelligent critique or demonstrate your lack of knowledge by being disrespectful, to your fellow Tenno? 

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Have people tested to verify that removing the channeling and combo counter multipliers won't result in builds that end up making early waves too easy in order to be viable against later ones?

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Getting rid of spin to win and melee through walls I agree with.

the thing I find fun about warframe is melee and building up damage over time with the combo counter so giving a flat buff to normal attacks seems so boring to me I think it should just stay how it is.

I'm interested to see how this will work on endless runs is this flat buff going to be enough to keep you in a 1- 2 hour survival? And if it is won't that make heaven attacks pointless in normal missions?

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So my channeling mods (especially the rivens I BOUGHT)useless if this goes through as is huh.

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