Melee: Present and Future goals!

[kingdomeTHEMADcthulhu]

So I gotta relearn all my combos again on how many stances and I just got the harder ones down rip all my practice it will be intresting to see how channeling no longer being a thing is going to effect the synoid heliocor effect or even the sanctions magistar heavy attacks effect ps piz fix secura lectra its effect is horrible  I get removing the forced cash drop but 2x on cash is worthless when only half them drop cash if ever why not x2 drops give us something worth its status as a syndicate weapon 

[Agentdark1706]

the only think i ask of this rework... and after watching the devstream

cool charged attacks like this... to open up for aereal combos (this cool examples is any nikana with decesive judgement)

Spoiler

 

 

[RCTerran]

On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We all use it - even us here. The dizzying yet super-effective slaughter-tornado that can make all other Arsenal options obsolete. But spin to win and melee going through walls - should it stay the way it is? At present time, we don't think so.

We do not think Melee is at its best when you are facing a wall and spinning into it over and over again. And if we do not address that, any work invested in our melee rework could be wasted. We want to make melee better overall. Primary and Secondary weapons have all gotten pretty painless overhauls this year. Melee's turn is coming.

Scenes like this are all too common, our data shows this method in particular is often abused by automation, and our minds show it just simply isn't fun.

The melee review is taking the longest. It has the most complexity - you can equip Melee, use combos, channel, stealth kill, hit multiple targets, and so on. Removing the clear 'spin to win through walls' is our first step in this plan of making all things melee engagement better.

The first change melee will see before it's broader review is a change to how melee attacks work. The coming change:
 

• Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

1

Melee spin to win metagame

• I very much agree that the current meta of maiming strike builds is neither healthy nor fun (though the fun aspect is a subjective matter) for the melee gameplay
• I would personally like to see maiming strike leave the game with the melee 3.0, though that will probably not happen

Melee through walls or objects

• In my POV, this is an essential beginning to solve the spin to win issue, though definitely not sufficient
• However, there is one crucial aspect that needs to be kept in mind while doing this change
• It also removes the player's ability to deal with enemies stuck inside walls or ceilings, which may potentially ruin the entire mission
• Yes, we have other ways to deal with stuck enemies, but we do not always bring an arsenal that able to do so into every mission

On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

As for the rest of the steps? What follows is an open door to what we're working on internally. This may not release exactly as described here, but we want everyone to be on the same page of what our plans are.
 

• While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
• Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.
• We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.
• Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.
• Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.
• You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!
• Dodge canceling any melee attack!
• FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.
• Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 

2

Channelling

• I have never really used channelling as it felt like a really unpolished system
• That said, these changes to channelling feel very welcomed, though hard to judge based on the paper description

Combo Counter

• This is my main concern with this rework
• There are so many mods, abilities and builds that depend on the combo counter
• If the counter will get reset on every heavy attack and the mods will not somehow be changed (I do know that this  all kept in mind and will be looked at), I am afraid nobody will be using heavy attacks as they will not want their combo counters getting reset

Slam and heavy attacks

• From what I have seen during the devstream, I very much liked the new ideas behind heavy and slam attacks
• I already voiced my fears regarding the heavy attacks
• I like the two styles of slam attacks - it is nice to keep the old version of the slam, but the new one looks amazing too and together with all of the air melee changes, it should really spice up the melee game

Dual wielding

• I suppose this comes down to what you enjoy playing, but I am personally looking for this so much, you would not believe
• Making the arsenal for dual wielding bigger gives players so much more room to get creative with their builds
• Also for me, it improves the fun factor of the melee game by a big amount

Dodge cancelling

• Just two words - thank you

Range

• Yet again - thank you
• HOWEVER, could we please get a UI thing in the arsenal giving us the range of our melees in metres and adapting to all the range mods? please? pretty please?

Mod adjustments

• Cannot really comment on this since there is nothing to comment on
• I will say this though, how you handle the mod adjustments will determine whether the melee rework will be amazing or really really bad
• As much as all the new systems and changes look amazing, if the mods will be broken and not useful, the melee game will suffer

 

On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

And last but not least, and sadly what only looks like one bullet point but actually touches well over 100 weapons, and is in fact parallel to the depth of the Secondary/Primary rework we did this year:
 

• Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.
• Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks
• Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

 

These videos show what we have so far. The first is showing quick attacks and heavy attacks together, with emphasis on direction ground attacks. The second video hows you how combat looks against invincible enemies so you can get a feel!

 

Stat and MR pass

• Since the primary and secondary weapons passes went pretty well in my view, I believe this one should not end badly either

Stances

• Again, thank you, though it raises a lot of questions in my head
• What about the multipliers that certain stances like Cleaving Whirlwind have?
• Will the only difference between stances be their polarity and animations then?

EDIT

I had to remove the gifs and the videos as the post was lagging immensely while writing it

[Cicasajt]

i was disappointed with the devstream. they showed so little and there is so much more felt to do. 

[Ogarra_Remaellus]

Still nervous about my speed/crit build, and the fate of the gladiator modset.

 

[Aeronite]

Just watched the devstream, Still kinda wondering what the point of mid-air combo's are. Will be  launch enemies to attack mid air? or just really a lack of anything to hit mid-air, seems like it was added just cause.

[Azamagon]

54 minutes ago, Aeronite said:

Just watched the devstream, Still kinda wondering what the pint of mid-air combo's are if you can launch enemies to attack mid air, or just really a lack of anything to hit mid-air, seems like it was added just cause.

Could be useful for pesky flying enemies and bosses. I think it's a neat idea to implement, even if it's situational.

[Eljureo]

Once Melee 3.0 hits, I will take out my galatine, run to a high level mission and do a charge attack.

If it rips up a bombard clean off in one giant slice, then melee 3.0 is a success.

I remember how awesome that was in melee 1.0. If charge attacks are like that.. Perfect.

[Technomole]

6 hours ago, kingdomeTHEMADcthulhu said:

So I gotta relearn all my combos again on how many stances and I just got the harder ones down rip all my practice 

Not so. The same combo will work on all melee weapons with no complicated button gymnastics to learn for every different weapon. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Devs, pleeeeease make sure attack speed affects the charge or heavy attack swing speed for melee. That's super important.

 

[FataL-Flaw]

Who wants to bet they nerf bloodrush as part of this combo counter change?

 

Is it a coincidence all is silent on what will become of the combo counter based mods?  100% guarantee it is less effective after this.

 

Melee usage overall dropped already just from their wall clipping change.  

 

Still wondering why it's the end of the world if you can melee a 12 meter radius and kill 5+ enemies... yet it's fine to use a primary and repeatedly one-shot groups of 5+ enemies from 100+ meters away with punch-through or explosive weapons, or through walls before they are even seen with warframe powers?

Make melee feel weak and nobody will use it.  It must be comparatively stronger in close range to make up for its inherent application disadvantage.  

[Eljureo]

55 minutes ago, FataL-Flaw said:

Who wants to bet they nerf bloodrush as part of this combo counter change?

 

Is it a coincidence all is silent on what will become of the combo counter based mods?  100% guarantee it is less effective after this.

 

Melee usage overall dropped already just from their wall clipping change.  

 

Still wondering why it's the end of the world if you can melee a 12 meter radius and kill 5+ enemies... yet it's fine to use a primary and repeatedly one-shot groups of 5+ enemies from 100+ meters away with punch-through or explosive weapons, or through walls before they are even seen with warframe powers?

Make melee feel weak and nobody will use it.  It must be comparatively stronger in close range to make up for its inherent application disadvantage.  

Well, wall cliping was bullS#&$...

Clearing a room in single strike with melee in 12 m radius is no problem. That is what polearms should be doing...

But fang primes etc should be able to displace much stronger single target damage, to make it worth our while.

Simply put melee should be king of damage.

Because using your ranged weapons you are much less vulnerable, exposing yourself to melee range should give you a damage advantage.

 

If they make regular damage 3x higher, crit chance +150% not current 60%, that would go a long way.

I hazard a guess it will be much better than before. It is not exactly rocket science to see many greatly underperforming melee weapons. So most will be buffed, some by quite a lot.

[Seijax]

Lots of good stuff about melee 3.0 Devstream #114, but i'm still worried about crit builds.

To specify in the beginning you wouldn't talk about the most concerning point doesn't make it reassuring

 

EDIT: imho this suggestion is worth some looking into: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/94k5lh/critbased_melee_30_of_blood_rush_gladiator_set/

 

[FreeWilliam]

9 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Could be useful for pesky flying enemies and bosses. I think it's a neat idea to implement, even if it's situational.

TENNO SMASH EIDOLON!!!!

(Plz DE?)

[Cephalon_Umbra]

They made big talk about Melee 3.0 on Dev Stream yet showed so little and they really tried to avoid Melee Combo Counter changes.

If normal swings get no Damage multiplier from Combo Counter but the base Damage is uped by 3,5-4x (its really easy to achieve that in the current System) fine, but they shoeld leave Combo Counter Mods the way they currently are or change them to work in a similar way to Berserker Mod for example Bloodrush adds a flat +15% Crit Chance to normal Swings for 30 seconds Stacking to up to a flat +165% Crit Chance on Crittical strikes.

[Kainosh]

I dont like that charge attacks have their own animations. Nah. Not gud.

These should use animations from current combos.  So for example you could do  A, A, A combo like this : A , Hold A, A      So middle (2nd) strike will be a charged attack, but will not break combo flow with different animations.  It will use slowed down animations of middle attack from A A A combo.

Easy to understand example : Eryx from DmC.   Any attack from its combos can be charged.

 

So yeah....I want to be able to charge ANYTHING. From flick to RKO.  

 

Slam attacks must pierce enemies and "detonate" only when you hit the ground.  Its not great when it triggers midair from slightest collision with a drone or such.

Oh and "directional slam" still looks...funny.  Really. Its super weird looking.   At least add tons of visual effects to hide that "midair hanging" moment....some different pose would also be nice. As is its just....lame.

[0_The_F00l]

Hi DE,

After Devstream #114 i noticed there are "Air combos" , but is there a starter to get enemies into the air? like an uppercut move?

The reload button is completely unused in Melee , why not make it an uppercut to launch enemies - so you can actually use those air combos.

would be cool if we could do that to single out one strong enemy or bring out our inner sadists while we juggle a weak enemy.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Devs, pleeeeease make sure attack speed affects the charge or heavy attack swing speed for melee. That's super important.

Also, do not forget about Jat Kusars charge attack and the augment mod for the Prova "Static Discharge", which appears to be either bugged or just underwhelming.

Thank you

[-CM-NineFingers]

hace 1 hora, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru dijo:

Devs, pleeeeease make sure attack speed affects the charge or heavy attack swing speed for melee. That's super important.

Also, do not forget about Jat Kusars charge attack and the augment mod for the Prova "Static Discharge", which appears to be either bugged or just underwhelming.

Thank you

the prova augment is just that weak tbh, not bugged, just not worth it.

[TANTO_17]

I am looking forward to these changes!

One thing, with stances getting looked through can we please get some in game documentation of forced status procs within combos? This kind of transparency would be really nice given the shear amount of changes coming to the melee system. 

[(PSN)Artaxiom]

It's great that we are getting Melee weapon reworks but I'm still not sure how the combo multiplayer is going to work now. What would happen to bloodrush and overload condition builds ?!

And the Prime accessories that I bought, how would they show their effects now when channelling is going away 😕

Also it'll be nice to give some noticeable buffs to some melee weapons that don't get much attention and love. 

 

[Gnohme]

Whoops wrong thread.

[Fidelacchius]

Just to clarify: As I understand it, this is not a Dynasty Warriors style combo system, correct? As in, the heavy attack button is not used to create unique combo strings, it just interrupts a current combo? Everything in the Devstream pointed to the conclusion that the only thing determining which combo you perform is forward movement, and that is a bit disappointing seeing as there is great potential for interesting combos by combining heavy and light attacks.

[Gnohme]

21 minutes ago, Fidelacchius said:

Just to clarify: As I understand it, this is not a Dynasty Warriors style combo system, correct? As in, the heavy attack button is not used to create unique combo strings, it just interrupts a current combo? Everything in the Devstream pointed to the conclusion that the only thing determining which combo you perform is forward movement, and that is a bit disappointing seeing as there is great potential for interesting combos by combining heavy and light attacks.

I agree I have some concerns with this - I was hoping they would implement combos that utilized different combinations of light/heavy attack. Personally I'm always trying to move while attacking, and I'd hate for that to limit my combo choices.

[Kainosh]

I agree that sideways movement should not affect what combos come out.   Only Forward and Backward movement should IF specific button combo is pressed.

Like this :

 (Shift + Forward + melee) for "Gap closer"  ;  (Block + Melee) for radial 360 style defensive attack (any kind of it) ;  ( Backwards + melee) for grounded slams or any other combo specific move.    You can use various button combos to trigger extra moves...Like ( Block + Shift + Melee) would perform something extra.

Add (roll + melee) for roll slash (fast slash at the end of roll).        

 

Having to remember certain non basic moves and combos is not a bad thing. it shows dedication and requires some skill.  

If everything is just triggered by movement direction....its just so dull.

 

 

Oh and replace roll animations with sidestep. It should also be MUCH faster than "gun rolls".    Because rolling at melee range is....impractical.  And its not stylish...looks like Dark souls parody cartoons.