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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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Watching the devstream, I'll confess I'm a LOT less nervous now.

The range increase on the shorter ranged weapons combined with the extra mobility looks like it'll make the whole suite of weapons and stances intriguing and fun.  

Well done guys.

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After the devstream you really hit those DMC notes. My only concern is the "forward input" vs no forward input combos.... seems like it would be better to have them as a heavy combo chain?

i kinda feel like I'm always holding forward while meleeing.

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-forums double posted a reply-

Edited by Sesaline
forums decided to double post

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12 hours ago, ganjou234 said:

That's the difference. Nuke in a direction vs Nuke the whole bloody map. Directional vs Map Wide.

The other allows your other teammates to do their thing while another hogs gameplay.

So I guess everybody queuing up for pub gotta go support now huh? What happened to minding our own business? I thought players should play what they wanna play? Maybe stasis shouldn't have been reworked?

Maybe the game should be designed in such a way that players dont step on each other's feet?

You dont think people going pub doing what they wanna do but cant because of one player is bad? If people should be able to do what they wanna do then they should be able to do so.

You're really overreaching into my comments. By support, I mean that the person running it maybe could not complete the mission alone, so they need some extra help. Think: MR3 trying to complete X". How did you get "So I guess everybody queuing up for pub gotta go support now huh?" from that? I feel like you are trying very hard to cherry pick and twist my words into something they are not. 

Maybe the game should be designed so your teammate's don't step on your toes? Is this real life? You are choosing to play with other people and then getting this worked up when they outperform you or play in a way you don't like? My god. I hope a nice rest helped clear your head because this level of angst is just embarrassing. If you don't want your teammates to play how they want to play then take more time in choosing who you play with so that you can do your thing while your teammates are just there to hold your hand and be unseen accessories through the whole mission. lol

"You dont think people going pub doing what they wanna do but cant because of one player is bad?"

I can't take you seriously anymore. I really can't. You do realize that you are the bad player? You're the one not willing to work with your team? You're the one trying to be a literal ninja when 3/4ths of the team* just want to get the mission done? Geez mate, you need to tone it down. I did nothing to you and honestly if Warframe stresses you out this much then maybe you should take a nice vacation away from matchmaking.

-------

melee 3.0 isn't going to change someone being able to spin with max sensitivity while firing off an ignis or an amprex or whatever kind of beam/high RoF weapon to clear the room. I've seen it before. Weapons are not always as clear-cut directional as you are assuming. In low level missions you can kill the enemies with just about anything. What people choose to kill with is up to them and not you. If you are this upset about other people not playing exactly how you want them to then don't. use. public. matchmaking.

Edited by Sesaline

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1 hour ago, FreeWilliam said:

Watching the devstream, I'll confess I'm a LOT less nervous now.

The range increase on the shorter ranged weapons combined with the extra mobility looks like it'll make the whole suite of weapons and stances intriguing and fun.  

Well done guys.

The movement is looking super smooth, and I am all for it. Swapping to melee mode always felt pretty weird. You'd find yourself falling short of enemies or stopping after combos, leaving you vulnerable. Their presentation was pretty impressive, and this is only the halfway mark!

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Just watched the devstream vod, I liked the mechanics but I was slightly put off by the amount of lightshow that's been put into simple slashes (not even "channel" enhanced), it feels a bit forced, particles just for the sake of particles, and the huge explosions of light during the slam attacks just felt straight up too much. Option to tone them down/turn them off without turning ALL your settings down would be greatly appreciated. Unless it was all turned up to 11 just to show the reach, in which case keep up the great work!

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Watched the devstream, and am very disappointed at how the Kronen performed.  Those blades are better than that.

I don't see why there is hype or so much emphasis for heavy attacks.  They are slow and looked as though they were out of place in the fluidity and speed of combos.

Trying to normalize combos, I get.  But what of stances that have 4 movement sets?  I notice it was mentioned a base set (no movement), a forward set, a block "close-the-gap" attack (is that a full set?)  But what of the fourth?  Some stances only have two sets anyway (Polearms, I believe?) - will they finally be getting some additional movements to be more in line with other weapons?

I said this in the Devstream thread, but heard one of the Devs say in stream the "basic attacks" were idealized to be single-target focus.  Why?  The sweeping multi-enemy attacks are what is useful in this hoard-game.  Enemies should not live long enough to endure a full combo.  If they do something is wrong...

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So I gotta relearn all my combos again on how many stances and I just got the harder ones down rip all my practice it will be intresting to see how channeling no longer being a thing is going to effect the synoid heliocor effect or even the sanctions magistar heavy attacks effect ps piz fix secura lectra its effect is horrible  I get removing the forced cash drop but 2x on cash is worthless when only half them drop cash if ever why not x2 drops give us something worth its status as a syndicate weapon 

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the only think i ask of this rework... and after watching the devstream

cool charged attacks like this... to open up for aereal combos (this cool examples is any nikana with decesive judgement)

Spoiler

 

 

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On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We all use it - even us here. The dizzying yet super-effective slaughter-tornado that can make all other Arsenal options obsolete. But spin to win and melee going through walls - should it stay the way it is? At present time, we don't think so.

We do not think Melee is at its best when you are facing a wall and spinning into it over and over again. And if we do not address that, any work invested in our melee rework could be wasted. We want to make melee better overall. Primary and Secondary weapons have all gotten pretty painless overhauls this year. Melee's turn is coming.

Scenes like this are all too common, our data shows this method in particular is often abused by automation, and our minds show it just simply isn't fun.


The melee review is taking the longest. It has the most complexity - you can equip Melee, use combos, channel, stealth kill, hit multiple targets, and so on. Removing the clear 'spin to win through walls' is our first step in this plan of making all things melee engagement better.

The first change melee will see before it's broader review is a change to how melee attacks work. The coming change:
 

  • Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.
1

Melee spin to win metagame

  • I very much agree that the current meta of maiming strike builds is neither healthy nor fun (though the fun aspect is a subjective matter) for the melee gameplay
  • I would personally like to see maiming strike leave the game with the melee 3.0, though that will probably not happen

Melee through walls or objects

  • In my POV, this is an essential beginning to solve the spin to win issue, though definitely not sufficient
  • However, there is one crucial aspect that needs to be kept in mind while doing this change
  • It also removes the player's ability to deal with enemies stuck inside walls or ceilings, which may potentially ruin the entire mission
  • Yes, we have other ways to deal with stuck enemies, but we do not always bring an arsenal that able to do so into every mission
On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

As for the rest of the steps? What follows is an open door to what we're working on internally. This may not release exactly as described here, but we want everyone to be on the same page of what our plans are.
 

  • While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
  • Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.
  • We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.
  • Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.
  • Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.
  • You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!
  • Dodge canceling any melee attack!
  • FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.
  • Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 
2

Channelling

  • I have never really used channelling as it felt like a really unpolished system
  • That said, these changes to channelling feel very welcomed, though hard to judge based on the paper description

Combo Counter

  • This is my main concern with this rework
  • There are so many mods, abilities and builds that depend on the combo counter
  • If the counter will get reset on every heavy attack and the mods will not somehow be changed (I do know that this  all kept in mind and will be looked at), I am afraid nobody will be using heavy attacks as they will not want their combo counters getting reset

Slam and heavy attacks

  • From what I have seen during the devstream, I very much liked the new ideas behind heavy and slam attacks
  • I already voiced my fears regarding the heavy attacks
  • I like the two styles of slam attacks - it is nice to keep the old version of the slam, but the new one looks amazing too and together with all of the air melee changes, it should really spice up the melee game

Dual wielding

  • I suppose this comes down to what you enjoy playing, but I am personally looking for this so much, you would not believe
  • Making the arsenal for dual wielding bigger gives players so much more room to get creative with their builds
  • Also for me, it improves the fun factor of the melee game by a big amount

Dodge cancelling

  • Just two words - thank you

Range

  • Yet again - thank you
  • HOWEVER, could we please get a UI thing in the arsenal giving us the range of our melees in metres and adapting to all the range mods? please? pretty please?

Mod adjustments

  • Cannot really comment on this since there is nothing to comment on
  • I will say this though, how you handle the mod adjustments will determine whether the melee rework will be amazing or really really bad
  • As much as all the new systems and changes look amazing, if the mods will be broken and not useful, the melee game will suffer

 

On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

And last but not least, and sadly what only looks like one bullet point but actually touches well over 100 weapons, and is in fact parallel to the depth of the Secondary/Primary rework we did this year:
 

  • Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.
  • Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks
  • Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

 

These videos show what we have so far. The first is showing quick attacks and heavy attacks together, with emphasis on direction ground attacks. The second video hows you how combat looks against invincible enemies so you can get a feel!

 

Stat and MR pass

  • Since the primary and secondary weapons passes went pretty well in my view, I believe this one should not end badly either

Stances

  • Again, thank you, though it raises a lot of questions in my head
  • What about the multipliers that certain stances like Cleaving Whirlwind have?
  • Will the only difference between stances be their polarity and animations then?

EDIT

I had to remove the gifs and the videos as the post was lagging immensely while writing it

Edited by RCTerran
grammar fixes

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i was disappointed with the devstream. they showed so little and there is so much more felt to do. 

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Just watched the devstream, Still kinda wondering what the point of mid-air combo's are. Will be  launch enemies to attack mid air? or just really a lack of anything to hit mid-air, seems like it was added just cause.

Edited by Aeronite
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54 minutes ago, Aeronite said:

Just watched the devstream, Still kinda wondering what the pint of mid-air combo's are if you can launch enemies to attack mid air, or just really a lack of anything to hit mid-air, seems like it was added just cause.

Could be useful for pesky flying enemies and bosses. I think it's a neat idea to implement, even if it's situational.

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Once Melee 3.0 hits, I will take out my galatine, run to a high level mission and do a charge attack.

If it rips up a bombard clean off in one giant slice, then melee 3.0 is a success.

I remember how awesome that was in melee 1.0. If charge attacks are like that.. Perfect.

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6 hours ago, kingdomeTHEMADcthulhu said:

So I gotta relearn all my combos again on how many stances and I just got the harder ones down rip all my practice 

Not so. The same combo will work on all melee weapons with no complicated button gymnastics to learn for every different weapon. 

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Who wants to bet they nerf bloodrush as part of this combo counter change?

 

Is it a coincidence all is silent on what will become of the combo counter based mods?  100% guarantee it is less effective after this.

 

Melee usage overall dropped already just from their wall clipping change.  

 

Still wondering why it's the end of the world if you can melee a 12 meter radius and kill 5+ enemies... yet it's fine to use a primary and repeatedly one-shot groups of 5+ enemies from 100+ meters away with punch-through or explosive weapons, or through walls before they are even seen with warframe powers?

Make melee feel weak and nobody will use it.  It must be comparatively stronger in close range to make up for its inherent application disadvantage.  

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55 minutes ago, FataL-Flaw said:

Who wants to bet they nerf bloodrush as part of this combo counter change?

 

Is it a coincidence all is silent on what will become of the combo counter based mods?  100% guarantee it is less effective after this.

 

Melee usage overall dropped already just from their wall clipping change.  

 

Still wondering why it's the end of the world if you can melee a 12 meter radius and kill 5+ enemies... yet it's fine to use a primary and repeatedly one-shot groups of 5+ enemies from 100+ meters away with punch-through or explosive weapons, or through walls before they are even seen with warframe powers?

Make melee feel weak and nobody will use it.  It must be comparatively stronger in close range to make up for its inherent application disadvantage.  

Well, wall cliping was bullS#&$...

Clearing a room in single strike with melee in 12 m radius is no problem. That is what polearms should be doing...

But fang primes etc should be able to displace much stronger single target damage, to make it worth our while.

Simply put melee should be king of damage.

Because using your ranged weapons you are much less vulnerable, exposing yourself to melee range should give you a damage advantage.

 

If they make regular damage 3x higher, crit chance +150% not current 60%, that would go a long way.

I hazard a guess it will be much better than before. It is not exactly rocket science to see many greatly underperforming melee weapons. So most will be buffed, some by quite a lot.

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Lots of good stuff about melee 3.0 Devstream #114, but i'm still worried about crit builds.

To specify in the beginning you wouldn't talk about the most concerning point doesn't make it reassuring

 

EDIT: imho this suggestion is worth some looking into: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/94k5lh/critbased_melee_30_of_blood_rush_gladiator_set/

 

Edited by Seijax

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9 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Could be useful for pesky flying enemies and bosses. I think it's a neat idea to implement, even if it's situational.

TENNO SMASH EIDOLON!!!!

(Plz DE?)

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They made big talk about Melee 3.0 on Dev Stream yet showed so little and they really tried to avoid Melee Combo Counter changes.

If normal swings get no Damage multiplier from Combo Counter but the base Damage is uped by 3,5-4x (its really easy to achieve that in the current System) fine, but they shoeld leave Combo Counter Mods the way they currently are or change them to work in a similar way to Berserker Mod for example Bloodrush adds a flat +15% Crit Chance to normal Swings for 30 seconds Stacking to up to a flat +165% Crit Chance on Crittical strikes.

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I dont like that charge attacks have their own animations. Nah. Not gud.

These should use animations from current combos.  So for example you could do  A, A, A combo like this : A , Hold A, A      So middle (2nd) strike will be a charged attack, but will not break combo flow with different animations.  It will use slowed down animations of middle attack from A A A combo.

Easy to understand example : Eryx from DmC.   Any attack from its combos can be charged.

 

So yeah....I want to be able to charge ANYTHING. From flick to RKO.  

 

Slam attacks must pierce enemies and "detonate" only when you hit the ground.  Its not great when it triggers midair from slightest collision with a drone or such.

Oh and "directional slam" still looks...funny.  Really. Its super weird looking.   At least add tons of visual effects to hide that "midair hanging" moment....some different pose would also be nice. As is its just....lame.

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Hi DE,

After Devstream #114 i noticed there are "Air combos" , but is there a starter to get enemies into the air? like an uppercut move?

The reload button is completely unused in Melee , why not make it an uppercut to launch enemies - so you can actually use those air combos.

would be cool if we could do that to single out one strong enemy or bring out our inner sadists while we juggle a weak enemy.

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