Melee: Present and Future goals!

[KlutzMeister]

ok, if you are planning on unifying combos, could you still leave in one or two old style combos per weapon class to help differentiate them? as well as not forget unique traits for weapons, like rapiers' bleed or sparring's easy finishers.

and maybe a heavy gap-closer that is an aoe launcher that primes the enemies for extra damage from aerial combos?

maybe a more defensive/CC combo for when you move backwards?

also, i know you haven't worked out the mods' behavior, but just a reminder not to mess up venka prime.

hope you're still reading this thread, love you devs ❤️

[DatDarkOne]

37 minutes ago, KlutzMeister said:

ok, if you are planning on unifying combos, could you still leave in one or two old style combos per weapon class to help differentiate them? as well as not forget unique traits for weapons, like rapiers' bleed or sparring's easy finishers.

and maybe a heavy gap-closer that is an aoe launcher that primes the enemies for extra damage from aerial combos?

maybe a more defensive/CC combo for when you move backwards?

also, i know you haven't worked out the mods' behavior, but just a reminder not to mess up venka prime.

hope you're still reading this thread, love you devs ❤️

Why not add in Hayabusa's Spinning Piledriver also.  You know since we're making requests and all.  😁 

[KlutzMeister]

11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Why not add in Hayabusa's Spinning Piledriver also.  You know since we're making requests and all.  😁 

Ask for the heavens above, but expect nothing! ...but, yeah more grapple/wrestling like finishers for fists/sparring would be neat.

[(PSN)Lowk721]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Artaxiax said:

It's great that we are getting Melee weapon reworks but I'm still not sure how the combo multiplayer is going to work now. What would happen to bloodrush and overload condition builds ?!

And the Prime accessories that I bought, how would they show their effects now when channelling is going away 😕

Also it'll be nice to give some noticeable buffs to some melee weapons that don't get much attention and love. 

 

I think they mentiones channeling is going to be a boosted mode. Something like devil trigger. They showed animation for activating it.

[Fidelacchius]

2 hours ago, KlutzMeister said:

ok, if you are planning on unifying combos, could you still leave in one or two old style combos per weapon class to help differentiate them? as well as not forget unique traits for weapons, like rapiers' bleed or sparring's easy finishers.

and maybe a heavy gap-closer that is an aoe launcher that primes the enemies for extra damage from aerial combos?

maybe a more defensive/CC combo for when you move backwards?

also, i know you haven't worked out the mods' behavior, but just a reminder not to mess up venka prime.

hope you're still reading this thread, love you devs ❤️

Dependig on what you mean by "old style combos". If you meant pause and hold combos, absolutely not. They have stated that one of the main purpose of this rework is to eliminate those completely.

[Yoruno]

Regarding combos midair, from what ive seen in devstream 114 it will be quite unusable if warframe keeps its inertia midair. Case in point rebecca was struggling to line up her hits against a stationary heavy gunner stuck in bastille.
 

So like how ground combo now has mobile combo when used with forward key, id suggest killing the inertia when starting midair attacks unless directional key is used.

[(PSN)Bjarkula]

Il y a 3 heures, KlutzMeister a dit :

 

ok, if you are planning on unifying combos, could you still leave in one or two old style combos per weapon class to help differentiate them? as well as not forget unique traits for weapons, like rapiers' bleed or sparring's easy finishers.

and maybe a heavy gap-closer that is an aoe launcher that primes the enemies for extra damage from aerial combos?

maybe a more defensive/CC combo for when you move backwards?

also, i know you haven't worked out the mods' behavior, but just a reminder not to mess up venka prime.

hope you're still reading this thread, love you devs ❤️

 

I also agree that DE should keep at least 1 iconic combo per stance as for example the slam combo on the tempo royale stance or the bleed stances

[(XBOX)GrandSageDragon]

Key word nerf high end scaling hint melee wont scale anymore and the normal damage buff wont be enough to fix this fyi its getting a big old nerf im not thinking otherwise untill i see a drastic change in base damage atleast 6x min 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

17 hours ago, Fidelacchius said:

Just to clarify: As I understand it, this is not a Dynasty Warriors style combo system, correct? As in, the heavy attack button is not used to create unique combo strings, it just interrupts a current combo? Everything in the Devstream pointed to the conclusion that the only thing determining which combo you perform is forward movement, and that is a bit disappointing seeing as there is great potential for interesting combos by combining heavy and light attacks.

I agree. What they said/showed in the initial reveal led me to believe combos would be redistributed between Light and Heavy, but it turns out Heavy is just a charged attack. What's the point of getting rid of channeling if that button is being used for a feature that has no conflicts on the old input? Seems like a huge waste.

What melee really needs tbh is proper displacement, instead of ragdolls. Chases, techs, etc with i-frames and catches would make melee cleaner and safer. Looking at you, sword-whips.

[Elanair]

After seeing part of the new melee system I'm somewhere around 50-50 on the matter, half of me likes it the other is a bit unsure what to think.

The system feels slightly restrictive and still borrows from the current combo melee quite a bit, in the sense that you seem to have two 'light' combos which are affected by whether you use your movement keys or not during your attacks. I was hoping for a system where you could mix 'light' with 'heavy' attack to create a more 'free form' range of combos but after seeing the last devstream it doesn't seem to be the case, the combos are 'set in stone' so to speak, similar to the ones in melee 2.0 but much more simple to perform. I'll take it as a good thing still, although I must ask if there will be any differences in damage and effects depending on which melee combo we will use. The current system allows for different effects (guaranteed procs, damage multiplier etc.), depending on the combo you use, some are better than others that's true, reason why I hope melee 3.0 will fix that by making sure that all combos have a use depending on the situation at hand.

The 'heavy' attacks feels more like a charged attack and I must ask what is the point of it? The original idea was to make it 'use up' the combo counter to release a devastation attack, part of the community was not pleased with the idea and I am curios as to what you plan on doing with it now. Will the 'Heavy' attacks be simply a slower yet somewhat stronger attack? Will they be used for CC to rag doll enemies? Speaking of which, I do hope that the rag doll effect will be toned down if the latter example is the case, because quite frankly I find it impractical and I'm sure that there are others who share my thoughts regarding the matter. If you plan on continuing with the original idea concerning heavy attacks I would agree with it BUT instead of using up the counter meter, make it use a third energy source (lets call it 'rage' for now) that is built up by attacking or/and using abilities, this energy could also be linked to the new channeling ability where it makes the player choose between buffing themselves with channeling or releasing a heavy charged attack and use up all their 'rage' resource pool.

Despite being unsure about certain things I still feel that melee 3.0 is going in the right direction and I can't wait to see what changes will follow.

As a Tenno who enjoys melee very much I wish to say thank you for all your hard work and to keep going forward! ^^

 

 

[Gyrnos]

Know what? As long as we don't get QTE or "Mash X/Y/Z 10 times in five seconds" I'll probably be able to live. That said I would like to see channeling actually be useful beyond "I hit harder and there are light effects". I feel like a build off of the stacking combo system would be best, like while building combos you can use some of that combo stack for heavy attacks, but at key points say every 50 combo stacks you can spend them all to generate either a buff (Damage/speed/range/status/crit) as a kind of "channeling/overdrive mode".

[(PSN)TheRallykiller]

I like the visuals and proposed weapon changes...

But visuals NEED to inform the user about melee collision and weapon/enemy connection.  If my slam attack visually radiates a large circle outward, I expect my damage to radiate outward appropriately.  Perhaps, we need slam attack mods to really give value to this mechanic?

The proposed weapon changes seem good, but if the Galatine, War, Gram, and Scindo are all just stat cousins with slight native differences, then I think the next big issue will be melee weapon redundancy.  The same issue will be present in hammers, whips, etc.

For weapons to be valuable as primed/prisma/whatever variants or as things beyond mastery-level builders, they need to be more unique (stances excluded).

I cam curious to see what happens going forward with mods...

What they do with reapers/scythes...

And, how this new system will fare in high-level content JUST TO SEE SCALABILITY for everything the game offers...

[(PSN)TheRallykiller]

...I did want to add, that I think the development team—and all of DE—are really focused on upcoming changes like Fortuna, Railjack, and Melee 3.0, and I DO see their passion in the streams, their respective social media accounts, etc.

So, thank you Digital Extremes for trying and striving for continual improvement and change flanked by a supportive, passionate, vocal, and varied community of players!

Here's to hoping all these endeavors are as successful as we all hope they are!

[BeardyKyle]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRallykiller said:

The proposed weapon changes seem good, but if the Galatine, War, Gram, and Scindo are all just stat cousins with slight native differences, then I think the next big issue will be melee weapon redundancy.  The same issue will be present in hammers, whips, etc.

 

 

That's a good point but I assume when the stats are changed the MR requirement will be as well and like how it is with guns right now there will be viable weapons in each category and it will come down to slight stat differences and personal preferences whether you go with the War or the Gram for instance. 

[(XBOX)Blacklash93]

So judging from the movesets shown on Devstream 114, the distinguishing properties of the different input attacks together seem to be:

Quote

 

Standing - Slower, more powerful attacks with a beefy-looking finisher attack at the end of combo chains. May be better for DPS & CC as a result.

Moving - Faster, more mobile attacks but weaker, simpler combo chains with no finisher attack. Builds combo counter more quickly as a result.

Blocking - Single, powerful utility attack to close the gap directly from blocking at a modest range.

Heavy - Single, powerful sweeping attack that can be used standalone or incorporated into any combo as a finisher. Consumes combo counter points.

 

Does this sound right? If so, what kind of general meta does this mean for how players should approach melee and combos?

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Guys, melee combos won't work in the air if there is no dedicated way to launch enemies in the air.

This may be a great opportunity to explore the idea of a light attack being charged launches an enemy upward and the player follows it to the air.

[DatDarkOne]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Blacklash93 said:

So judging from the movesets shown on Devstream 114, the distinguishing properties of the different input attacks together seem to be:

Does this sound right? If so, what kind of general meta does this mean for how players should approach melee and combos?

The general meta would be learning what the combos and what the different attacks do and then use them accordingly.  

[Rinteru]

Honestly when i heard channeling is going down I thought we could get another button for heavy attacks so we could get even more  attacks and combos. It makes me totaly sad that oposite is happening and we are getting less and more dumb melee system. Personaly if i were redesigning melee system i would first take inspiration from fighting games such as Tekken or Street fighter and also maybe like old god of war ( dunno combat in the new one) and Devil May Cry. 2 Types of melee attacks ( light and heavy) would be situated on mouse buttons and i would move block attack to maybe E or something else which would address issues on using all directions for combos. Secondly nerfing melee speed mods would be pretty good idea, deleting them is bad idea cuz some builds are pretty fun on insane speeds. However making attacks and combos satysfying would my priority As for the gap closer that was proposed i would move it to for example shift + forward or forward + double tap shift where it wouldnt replace roll if you realy need forward roll, or maybe even block + double tap forward. Thats a feel question thou, it would need further texting. Charged attacks would be moved to hold heavy button attack or even diffrent button if we it was need. Charged attack doesnt need comboing it thats why we could use direction it with camera not have to use side buttons arrows or a and d buttons so charged attack could be still on keyboard.0

After those changes in my opinion not counting combos which could be used melee would be in pretty good spot already. We have 3 types of attacks ( light , heavy, charged ), block, melee dash, free directions ( or side movement ) for combos ready. To keep the feel of speed weapons there could be mostly button mashing stances while for refined melee playstyle without speed mods we could have intresting combos that would "combo" (dont mind a pun XD) into each other. For example launching combos like in tekken or combos that end in pretty sweet finisher or smash attacks that would reward player for "button gymnastics". As for combo counter that could still increase the damage of normal attacks slightly and would be used on smash attacks,finisher attacks, and charged attacks. Althou the base combo counter time would be increased to lets say 4-5seconds after last attack it the mods that inrease combo timer would be nerfed to max 3-5s. You could still mash buttons for a lot of damage but you would have to combo correctly to maximaize dmg output if you realy needed to. As for the combos themselves you could have for example attacks that are spamable little bit spamable and are similar on every weapon so lower skilled players wouldnt need to worry much about learning every weapon combos.However if you into combos as i am you could do incredible stuff with for example dual wielding weapons ( pistol + maybe sword ) like launching enemies in the air jumping up with them, using your pistol to shoot down few and finishing them rest off when they fall down with good old slam attack. Thats actualy what i love in gun system currently in warframe . You could do a lot of acrtobatics with guns and bows and other stuff and it looks #*!%ing amazing. 

Also the exodias that could affect diffrent attacks in combos like adding like additional animations and effects making the melee system even more intresting.

Thats what i imagined melee 3.0 to be. If it will be diffrent i will roll with it but I hope it gets to DE ears.

 

EDIT: Actualy thinking about this rework what came to my mind is also that even more heavy units should be introduced. Then we could have diffrent combos for both aoe attacks and single target attacks which would make things even more intresting.

 

 

[Azimbee]

I propose the following changes to relevant Focus Schools within the following context. Heavy/Charge attacks deplete combo gained and channeled-block costs no energy. Channeling mods get moved to heavy/charge attacks. The suggested changes are:

1. Affinity Spike be changed to a node that increases the efficiency/duration of that 'Devil Trigger' mechanic gone over during the devstream. That's really cool and Naramon making that even more accessible is better.
2. Power Spike Remain the same as is, and instead cause a decay of combo rather than depletion be extended to heavy/charge attacks.
3. Inner Might should instead increase the efficiency of toggle/channeled abilities. As it stands only Arcane Energize and Rage/Adrenaline builds work with upkeep. Not all players can get a full Energize Set or have a warframe tanky enough for that. The Energizing Dash and Energy Pulse nodes do not work during toggles/channeled abilities.

This is because exalted melee weapons fall under the jurisdiction of both Naramon and Zenurik. Naramon being the combo+devil trigger school and Zenurik being the caster/duration version would be ideal.

Moving away from that nuance I do like the idea of Heavy Attacks being the build up and climax of combos. Moving Channeling Mods to Heavy/Charge attacks instead would be great. While we're at it, let's remove the -90 shields from Empowered Blades Aura and have it apply to the new heavy/charge attacks. It's also important that charge/heavy attacks are available for 'One-Handed Melee and Gun' dual wielding.

I eagerly await 'Devil Trigger' Mods too. That whole melee powerup shown in devstream seems really cool and leaves me very excited. I might also be a little biased because I love the Rapier melee class and would enjoy having a viable 1 handed melee with my 1 handed pistols. It's a classy weapon type.

Edit: Calling it Devil Trigger would be copyright infringe, obviously. Let's work on that name. Make it cooler, more Warframe.

Void Trigger

[(XBOX)Blacklash93]

3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

The general meta would be learning what the combos and what the different attacks do and then use them accordingly.  

Meta was probably the wrong term. I guess I meant something like "encouraged playstyle."

Assuming those observations are universally true for the new melee system, it seems to me that moving attacks would be emphasized early on to increase the combo counter quickly, then shift to the other aspects that more greatly take advantage of the combo multiplier once its high enough. How exactly that process would be prioritized and paced would depend on how everything is tuned, especially the trade-off of using a heavy attack versus maintaining the multiplier.

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Blacklash93 said:

Meta was probably the wrong term. I guess I meant something like "encouraged playstyle."

Assuming those observations are universally true for the new melee system, it seems to me that moving attacks would be emphasized early on to increase the combo counter quickly, then shift to the other aspects that more greatly take advantage of the combo multiplier once its high enough. How exactly that process would be prioritized and paced would depend on how everything is tuned, especially the trade-off of using a heavy attack versus maintaining the multiplier.

What I'm really interesting in is how the melee changes will effect stealth kills.  For example, will we be able to choose when we do a stealth finisher by selecting one of the buttons, both, etc.  

[IAmTheFutureFlash]

things melee 3.0 must have

- aerial attacks must keep on air for few seconds when fighting enemy on air will get close to enemy and also a fast melee attack that throws enemy to air to perform the air combo easier and i suggest "melee block+backward movement+E" throws enemy to air
- equipping 2 different melee weapons at once i mean that we can have venka prime and galatine, and venka prime because its already equipped in hands while using another melee weapon because some warframes have 2 melee weapons already like "Excalibur and Valkyr"
- changing stance mods while inside the mission, so if i have a dark "split-sword" i can use any melee stance mod in the game + that i can switch from sword to fist weapon can make melee combo fashion interesting and fun
- making to switch weapon button "F" fast click to switch between weapons instead of holding F, and weapon switching must be very fast without any holster speed mods

- exodia contagion will launch projectiles in every melee attack while on air

- exodia hunt+epidemic will launch projectiles in every ground slam attack performed by stance combo "galatine forward attack combo"

- all weapons (not zaws) will be able to use all exodia arcanes in one build "hunt+epidemic+contagion" and this will make the melee combo a lot more fun
 

[IAmTheFutureFlash]

13 hours ago, Azimbee said:

Void Trigger

Void Demonic Trigger

"VDT"

Demonic Void Form

Void Power Form

….

what if operator become a void demon and the abilities effect him by the choices operator made in the second dream, war within?

like if you are with the sun side you get a angelic wings

and if you are with the moon side you get demonic wings

O.O

[(PSN)TheRallykiller]

On 2018-08-05 at 7:55 AM, Kainosh said:

Having to remember certain non basic moves and combos is not a bad thing. it shows dedication and requires some skill.  

If everything is just triggered by movement direction....its just so dull.

I don't disagree, but my feeling is they have insight (data) into exactly how melee is used and actual player use of combos...hence the changes.

The Melee 3.0 rework is, IMHO, a response to actual player in-game behavior and not developer reaction to forum complaints.

A lot of past changes and updates that I recall, as noted by Steve/Sheldon/Rebb/Etc. in devstreams, are alterations to in-game mechanics informed by metrics pulled and aggregated from how Warframe players do [INSERT MECHANIC HERE].

Combos just may be something that the playerbase doesn't use despite fellow Tenno saying they do (sometimes people have a tendency to say one thing and do another).

[IAmTheFutureFlash]

I wasn't don't won't not to disagree with DE about melee 3.0