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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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I know DE has put a lot of effort into melee 3.0 (that means money) so every criticism looks bad for them.

But please use reason. Remove channeling and take away combos isnt the right path.

Dont listen to thoose who compare WF melee to other games. Theese ppl mostly stay a bit then move away and wont shed any tears over a screwed game.

According to the info we have this far melee 3.0 will be a disaster. With its known attributes it cant be nearly as effective as melee are right now. I sefiously hope this rework thing isnt a hidden strike to force the players into the starchart lvl enemies. Maybe it is...

The solution to the current problems ia very easy:

1) Change maiming strike and the riven equivivalent into yomething useful but not godly effect. Maybe make maiming strike (the mod) into the uniqee mod that has 3 effect/modifier. Or change it anyway that stops it being the lazy man best solution and overall must have thingy.

2) Make most combos easyer to achive, less button to mash and without the hold and pause elements. Rework some lackluster stances but keep the good ones. Maybe include channeling into the combo requirements making channeling even more useful.

 

Most players dont know how to do melee, how to use the awesome given stuff because meme strike makes everything irrelevant for the 99% of the ppl.

Right now we have awesome synergies with arcanes combos and channeling, simply the most players dont bother to explore them. Take the easy "cheat" meme strime away - as i proposed with some compensation - and in the long run everyone will win.

Edited by Csaszar

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Welcome changes - the spin 2 win thing is completely dumb. There's no skill in spamming two buttons.

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14 minutes ago, arii1986 said:

Welcome changes - the spin 2 win thing is completely dumb. There's no skill in spamming two buttons.

I think some Spin2Win fans would argue that it's not that fundamentally different from an Ignis or a Saryn. 

That being said, the fact that Spin2Win involves sliding 'near' things while not actively engaging with any enemies (if you bump into anything that you can't one-shot you have to slide away from it or backpedal) really does take the fun out of melee, especially since you can slide past somebody who's trying to melee in a more engaging way and pop everything in the area (rude, right?).  I get the way the bonus works (it gives low-crit weapons situational boosts), but it always needed a cooldown or something to prevent the spam/movement combo. 

With 3.0, if Blood Rush effects work on light attacks then I suspect we'll still have a problem with it (they could also greatly reduce the range on a timer, or a number of other things..just make sure it's less effective than standing toe-to-toe except perhaps in tactical bursts)

Given that they're taking out channeling COMPLETELY (something I use constantly, partly to let me not one-shot lower level enemies while still being able to handle tougher ones) I hope Spin2Win isn't being treated with kid gloves. We should NOT be motivated to use it the way we are.

Edited by FreeWilliam
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31 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

I think some Spin2Win fans would argue that it's not that fundamentally different from an Ignis or a Saryn. 

 

Ignis is a flamethrower - it shoots flames. At the very least it's realistic. Well in a game of space ninjas I guess realism is out the window. But I'm sure when they created the Ignis, they wanted a flamethrower style weapon. With Maiming Strike - did they want to create an OP playing style based on one attack?

Saryn: okay, she has a very low skill gap. But decent Saryn players will outperform mediocre ones. You still have to manage your spores, spread it around effectively, keep your toxic lash up etc etc

Personally, spin2win isn't really comparable. It's overly powerful, lacks skill and looks incredibly stupid. 

Edited by Guest

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2 hours ago, arii1986 said:

 

Personally, spin2win isn't really comparable. It's overly powerful, lacks skill and looks incredibly stupid. 

I firmly agree (especially on the third point), and am pretty sure I spent my entire post agreeing and adding some nuance.

What I want to be careful of is demonizing the concept.  It's not the fault of Tenno that they're being motivated to use Spin2Win.  It is (as we're all agreeing) far too low-effort and disproportionately powerful.  It also interferes with frames that are trying to use any other sort of melee.

Given that they're completely removing Channeling (Definitely the best way to make builds that DON'T interfere with other Tenno while still allowing us to handle high level content), I'm hoping that they're similarly willing to ditch a far less important part of the game (Spin2Win) if it's unbalancing the game and am uncertain if that's the case.  I'm feeling like people like myself simply were never part of the conversation because we don't play like the 'big content creators'.

Most important to me is an engaging and diverse melee experience that rewards me for interacting and being creative while having a good risk/reward ratio with power-based and ranged builds.  I'll happily lose all my favorite toys if that's what we get.  

I'm just not 100% sure that's what I'm seeing.  The increase in damage and removing of the gradual scaling of the combo counter (combined with the fact that AFAIK blood rush effects still will benefit maiming strike) and I'm a little worried we'll just see a lot of alpha-strike builds and a whole bunch of (yes, stupid-looking) butt-scooting past enemies to pop them with huge red numbers. 

I'd love to hear from DE that my concerns are unfounded and (even better) not only is that all factored in but I can look forward to a pleasant surprise or two.

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Good both channeling and spin2win are both awful, as long as life strike gets reworked as well so it's still works somehow nobody is gonna miss either.

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:simaris: Disappointed. This experiment will be fail!

[DE]Rebecca "Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack." 

Really? Heavy attacks don't flow during the match, so they are not used. 

 

Edited by -SR-Daddy
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The following got me thinking about the whole "spin to win through walls": Sometimes enemies spawn out of bounds, I have seen it happen repeatedly in Corpus Ship (as recent as today a few minutes ago) and Corpus Ice Planet tile sets. Being fissures seems to make it happen more often. And what do I have to do when that happens? I have to hit through walls. Granted, I will often use warframes abilities for that, however sometimes I have a warframe that is not good for that.

Futhermore, this has happened to players. I recently was playing some missions in public, and - as expected - players joined... but one of then spawned out of bound. This was Corpus Ice Planet tile set, and the location where the player spawned reminded me that some enemies sometimes spawn there. (I told that player to use /unstuck however they didn't read the chat until the mission was over, so I don't know if it would have worked).

Thus, I do not think you are ready to take hitting through walls away from us.

---
On the other hand, have you considered meditation trough motion? Doing a repetitive movement can be a form of meditation, it frees the mind to wander. Granted, this is not what everybody looks for in warframe, and plenty of us want more challenge (fair challenge), however it is something that I have come to appriaciate in warframe melee combat.

Addendum: I am worried that melee - being the only kind of weapons that continue to scale in long lasting missions - will not longer be effective, with the combo multiplies only working for heavy attacks.

In that order of ideas, I want to suggest - please consider - to have heavy attacks move the combo counter down to the prior multiplier instead of resetting it to zero.

Please, and thank you.

Edited by theraot

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On 2018-09-05 at 2:58 PM, -SR-Daddy said:

 

Really? Heavy attacks don't flow during the match, so they are not used. 

There's no reason why they couldn't.  It's just button presses and animations, with one of them using and resetting a counter. *shrug*

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Il y a 10 heures, FreeWilliam a dit :

There's no reason why they couldn't.  It's just button presses and animations, with one of them using and resetting a counter. *shrug*

Did you see the animation they made available?

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13 hours ago, -SR-Daddy said:

Did you see the animation they made available?

Umm, yes?

But that's not the only animation possible there, the animation itself can be accelerated, and any number of other things.  'Heavy Attack' and 'This one animation' aren't even vaguely mutually exclusive.  DE's not being pushed into a corner they can't get out of there.

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This started in April. Melee is a fundamental base mechanic of this game along with shooting and the movement system. We need a new workshop post with what's being done.

Beyond that, I'll just say what I've been saying this whole time. Melee 3.0 was announced under the guise of Maiming Strike being a problem. However, there is not ONE sentence or any word from DE that will do anything to change Maiming or slide attacks. If you can find one, please, @ me and copy it into the post. 

Instead, the whole thing was focused on the combo counter and Blood Rush. And those changes are nerfs. Bloodrush not applying to your normal attacks, and only working on heavy attacks, which you need to use normal just to run up, just to blow on one movement. Purposely making your economy of actions inefficient.

Unifying all combos to include a hold forward. This is hands down the single worst idea I've run across in two and a half years of playing. It's literally the reason why we all complained about scythes. If you haven't noticed, equip a scythe with the stance, or any stance with a hold forward combo, and go mulch some dudes. You will inadvertently end up spamming it even when you don't want to. Then you have the problem of multiple steps your frame takes during the animation locking you in place. It FEELS bad. Because it's slow, and it gets you shot, and you end up doing combo's you didn't want to do. That's not a fix, that's adding a problem.

The quickmelee for polearms however, is magnificent. Whenever someone asks what the best stance for them is; quickmelee. Why? Simple. You have 100% freedom of leg movement to adjust your angle of attack at will. THAT's how it should be for all weapons. Not "Let's add this clunky thing that so many people have quietly grumbled about that we just made a scythe that uses heavy blade stances." Fix the problem, don't add it into everything as a feature.

Then there's the "boost" to damage. In the one devstream, Rebecca had a Jat Kittag with all four 90% elementals equipped, allegedly. I say allegedly because when Brozime asked her for a build screenshot, she said she couldn't give him one. For anyone who doesn't know, melee weapons were tweaked to properly register headshots a while back. Hammer stances are full of inherent headshots, to the point where they're my go to Harrow weapon as every other quick melee attack is an overhead. A Jat Kittag with all four elements can easily kill a Kuva Flood level enemy in a single shot, if you aim, somewhat. In that stream though, Reb got stuck in the same combo multiple times, she got stuck in place by that combo multiple times, and she was struggling to kill because of it, ALONG with the damage, which seemed way too low.

Look, I know most people aren't going to notice these things. Right away that is. But if they're suddenly dumped on the playerbase, then you better believe people are going to notice when they go from "Masters of Gun and Blade" to "Masters of Gun and a thing that won't even open a crate properly because enemies were counted as objects." Quite literally a joke I made months ago, that LEGITIMATELY HAPPENED IN GAME. That was only changed after everyone rightfully complained. :facepalm: 

Edited by Hyohakusha

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- Life strike should add like 0.0001% lifesteal to normal attacks.

- I'd rather see blood rush's percent value nerfed than have 100% of it's builds annihilated.

- I've never cared about maiming strike, it was too inefficient for me. 

 

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Still waiting on that dev workshop.

Still have a hard time believing that a 'build it and spend it' combo system would be all that compelling. This isn't a character action game where you're spending multiple hits on a single enemy, juggling them and cashing out a string with a huge hit. It's a game where spaceninjas are flipping around at ultra high speed blowing up entire rooms at once with their weapons, and where enemies start to scale so powerfully that having to take time attacking some of them means you're going to get smeared across the floor like a bug on a windshield.

I see two outcomes: either normal attacks are strong enough and valuable enough so that you don't ever need to drop your combo (and all the benefits that come from it) with a heavy attack, or heavy attacks become necessary, in which case your normal attacks won't do S#&$ against high level enemies, leading you to either being pasted, or taking so long to kill enemies that your team will just pop their head into your room and one-shot the thing you're trying to whittle down. 

I mean, that's speculation on my part, but that's all I have to go on because, again, THE WORKSHOP DETAILING HOW THAT S#&$ IS SUPPOSED TO WORK IS *STILL NOT UP* WHEN IT WAS MENTIONED WEEKS AND WEEKS AGO. Did you end up having to redo the whole system or something?

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DE, do not forget the EFFECTS to attacks

  • Will the charge attacks have the same weight as before? ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kh1-NbXIOY , it felt so satisfying & it comes from your game) 

SatisfiedLeafyBarbet.gif  warframe_gif_2_by_spazznid-d71bbm3.gif

  • Enemies should react a bit more accurate to our hits (otherwise it doesn't have much weight & they feel like actual bullet sponges)....
  • G O R E : the current system needs some tweaks. Not as developed as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cig-XA07iPw or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpdIXN0DMrQ , but a little more accurate points of amputation, bullet holes on dead enemies & a few other stuff would be welcome. (right now the bodies are dismembered in a specific way & there's the funny plastic looking leg/arm/head popping out of the enemies)

 

In summary :

  • Tweaked hit detection
  • Gore 2.0 with a bit more accuracy
  • Our hits should feel like there's power behind, the blades should feel like they are sharp & can cut through flesh.

Résultat de recherche d'images pour "gore system"  

Edited by unknow99
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Would love being actually able to target specific limbs or the head for actual gameplay effects:

   - arm removed=weapon loss

   - leg removed= immobilized target

   - head hit= fatality

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if maiming strike is a problem, why not just change it so that the mod gives a chance to dismember body parts while leaving the enemy alive but weakened for example: if they lose an arm they are afflicted with an effect akin to a viral and slash proc and if its their gun arm they can only punch and kick with the remaining limbs, or if its a leg they drop into a downed position where all they can do is crawl and shoot like tenno that go down.

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Maiming strike is a problem because it gives flat 90% crit instead of multiplying 90% like other crit mods, changing that is the only fix it needs...

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So... today's devstream:

DnGOxI6WwAAOiyT.jpg:large

I feel this should be talked about.

Melee is vital part of my enjoyment in the game; and it's a reason I started playing the game back in early 2016. The whole lack of informations, and careful tip-toeing is not exactly helpful. Then, seeing those things in the dev-stream - indicate rather huge nerf to certain types of weapons. Now - I get that DE wants to make wide-variety of weapons viable, but I feel it should not be at the cost of some others being nerfed into the oblivion.

Additionally - The whole system being dependant/emphasised on 'heavy' attacks, and likely only focusing on single opponent or two simply will ruin melee, and most people will stop using it, as it won't be viable anymore. This game has us to kill bazillion of enemies, who basically Zerg rush us. With diminishing melee this way, all this is going to accomplish is, people using 'nuke' Warframes, as they'll be the only ones viable. That, I feel, goes contra the current intent - to make more stuff viable, so people can pick their poison, as the saying goes.

I am a melee only player, always has been. Loving the game for its' unique and fun melee in terms of gameplay, but for the goodness-sake, I surely hope the end-result won't be as bleak as it currently seems, for melee overal.

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if u guy say , spin2win is powerful then . . . please look at quick melee on plague kripath , it's really new whole level than spin2win. spin2win is just fast-movement attack without holding in your position, i like that and don't want it to get removed and we don't have any exclusive mod that support slide/slam yet, just only ordinary mods.

Edited by ToKeSia
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