Jump to content
[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

Recommended Posts

I am still a new player to Warframe, but already a longtime gamer. And I can see that its hard to make melee more interesting than spamming E or spin attacks.I saw some vids of people ppl swinging their weapons at the speed of light (Volt can make it even quicker) and it looked honestly really stupid.

But the way this game is designed with the farming and killing millions of enemies in the most efficient/quickest way possible the beauty of melee is pretty much reduced to being a lawn mower spamming E.

Either way with the heavy attacks, I hope they add heavy charged attacks. Currently not a fan of the Charged attacks (Holding one button/key)

In Nioh you can do charged attacks while holding one button (R1) and then shortly after adding another button. And also if you time it right, you can do a charged attack with a reduced charge time after an attack. Like shown in the GIFs. Besides, please make Iai-quickdraw as the Nikana heavy charged attack, or atleast for Tranquil Cleave stance. The animation is nearly ingame already.

ezgif.com-video-to-gif1.gif

Just needs a charge time when sheathing the sword and a forward lunge when pulling it out.

ezgif.com-optimize.gif

As you see reduced charge time on the follow up iai strikes. And also just a demonstration of what an iai-quickdraw is.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, CrazyValkyr said:

So... today's devstream:

DnGOxI6WwAAOiyT.jpg:large

I feel this should be talked about.

Melee is vital part of my enjoyment in the game; and it's a reason I started playing the game back in early 2016. The whole lack of informations, and careful tip-toeing is not exactly helpful. Then, seeing those things in the dev-stream - indicate rather huge nerf to certain types of weapons. Now - I get that DE wants to make wide-variety of weapons viable, but I feel it should not be at the cost of some others being nerfed into the oblivion.

Additionally - The whole system being dependant/emphasised on 'heavy' attacks, and likely only focusing on single opponent or two simply will ruin melee, and most people will stop using it, as it won't be viable anymore. This game has us to kill bazillion of enemies, who basically Zerg rush us. With diminishing melee this way, all this is going to accomplish is, people using 'nuke' Warframes, as they'll be the only ones viable. That, I feel, goes contra the current intent - to make more stuff viable, so people can pick their poison, as the saying goes.

I am a melee only player, always has been. Loving the game for its' unique and fun melee in terms of gameplay, but for the goodness-sake, I surely hope the end-result won't be as bleak as it currently seems, for melee overal.

That has me worried. Does that mean normal attacks will only affect the closest enemy and will not kill enemies behind them even if they´re close enough?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, CrazyValkyr said:

So... today's devstream:

DnGOxI6WwAAOiyT.jpg:large

I feel this should be talked about.

Melee is vital part of my enjoyment in the game; and it's a reason I started playing the game back in early 2016. The whole lack of informations, and careful tip-toeing is not exactly helpful. Then, seeing those things in the dev-stream - indicate rather huge nerf to certain types of weapons. Now - I get that DE wants to make wide-variety of weapons viable, but I feel it should not be at the cost of some others being nerfed into the oblivion.

Additionally - The whole system being dependant/emphasised on 'heavy' attacks, and likely only focusing on single opponent or two simply will ruin melee, and most people will stop using it, as it won't be viable anymore. This game has us to kill bazillion of enemies, who basically Zerg rush us. With diminishing melee this way, all this is going to accomplish is, people using 'nuke' Warframes, as they'll be the only ones viable. That, I feel, goes contra the current intent - to make more stuff viable, so people can pick their poison, as the saying goes.

I am a melee only player, always has been. Loving the game for its' unique and fun melee in terms of gameplay, but for the goodness-sake, I surely hope the end-result won't be as bleak as it currently seems, for melee overal.

this is terrifying... please DE dont ruin melee... this new fetish for everytihg being focused on "heavy attacks" is really really not sounding enjoyable

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, CrazyValkyr said:

So... today's devstream:

DnGOxI6WwAAOiyT.jpg:large

I feel this should be talked about.

To me this change looks good and it really bothers me when people can't see the possibilities this opens up. Base range on weapons can and likely will be adjusted to compensate for this change. Short range weapons will end up benefiting more from range mods while longer range weapons could lose very little of the potential range they have now when modded. Also, there are quite a few weapons in the game now that made specifically to cleave multiple enemies, like Gram for instance, so I doubt that those weapons are going to lose that functionality.

What makes this exciting for me is that it will almost definitely change the meta game which has for many players become super stale. Meta shifting updates are what keep a game feeling fresh and alive, in my opinion. It's strange that there aren't a lot of people here on the forums talking about how much they're looking forward to Melee 3.0 right. Insert vocal minority memes here. If nothing else it will give people something new to complain about 🙂 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For nikanas can we get a battle ready stance that keeps the blade unsheathed? I feel that would better fit the games style because in reality you wouldn't want to re-sheathe your sword every time you finished killing an enemy. So can we like change decisive judgment to have to blade held out to the side and change the stance movements slightly?

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, (PS4)jman10089 said:

For nikanas can we get a battle ready stance that keeps the blade unsheathed? I feel that would better fit the games style because in reality you wouldn't want to re-sheathe your sword every time you finished killing an enemy. So can we like change decisive judgment to have to blade held out to the side and change the stance movements slightly?

I could totally go for at least having a different stance for Nikana that allow us to wield the weapon in a more active martial manner instead of the quick single stroke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Air-mage said:

i call ahead- attacks not going trough objects will be annoying and often bugged

Thats why they field test it on pc first so consoles don't have to worry about it. Thank you for your sacrifice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, (PS4)jman10089 said:

Thats why they field test it on pc first so consoles don't have to worry about it. Thank you for your sacrifice.

the annoying part will probably include attacks not opening boxes and attacks getting stuck and deleted completely in everything in closed spaces

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Air-mage said:

the annoying part will probably include attacks not opening boxes and attacks getting stuck and deleted completely in everything in closed spaces

As long as I can still put blood on the walls by slashing them I'm happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've mentioned this in another topic but I'll say it again here: I really need the proposed melee holstering changes from devstream 116 to not turn melee attack and primary fire into mutually exclusive keybinds. Hammering E in addition to running around and bullet jumping really piles on the repetitive motion stress on my wrist, and while using a side button on the mouse is okay when I just want to quick attack a box or one or two enemies, it's not half as good as just using the left mouse button proper to attack when I have a melee fully drawn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a few fears about this that should be addressed. (if they have someone do let me know)

1. Stance Mods - I heard stance mods were being removed. I love stance mods and stance combos. They make it so people don't mindlessly spam a single button. Some require much finesse which is great. They also allow my weapon to fight different from someone else with the same weapon and gives more freedom to customize your play style. Romoving this without an equal or better replacement system just is not ok period. And lets not even begin top think of all of the players that have invested and fought through hours to days, some even weeks farming for their stance mods that they really wanted. Removing those is a kick in the face to those poor players...

2. Channeling - Correct. Channel blocking is useless. But what about ummm...I dunno….."LIFE_STRIKE"? Not every frame can heal. Condition Overload with Healing return is nice, but what about the Crit Weapons that have low status? Life Strike is necessary and without the ability to control it through channeling it will become obsolete

3. Spin to Win - Hated it, always will hate it. Excellent call DE. It honestly is just an abuse of an exploit that happened simply because you cannot predict every possibility that millions of players can try. 

4. Exalted Weapons - So....I was going through mods on my Wukong's exalted Staff.....No "BLOOD_RUSH", No "BODY_COUNT" on what is supposed to be a crit weapon. Yet I can use "CONDITION_OVERLOAD". I thought the whole purpose of separating mods was to make them more relevant? Well with this Exalted weapons are far less relevant than they ever were. Why would I use a weak exalted weapon, when by blood rush and body count standard melee is so much stronger? This should also be addressed in melee 3.0 and I feel like no one is looking at that. Exalted weapons either need to be fixed or replaced by an ability which we can actually use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When melee 3.0 drops, will I be able to grab my gun blade and shoot with my left hand, Instead of using my right hand only?

So much wasted movement as seen in the 2 short vids below. I hope that will be addressed to be more fluid.

Thank you 

Edited by (XB1)RDeschain82

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

 

1. Stance Mods - I heard stance mods were being removed. I love stance mods and stance combos. They make it so people don't mindlessly spam a single button. Some require much finesse which is great. They also allow my weapon to fight different from someone else with the same weapon and gives more freedom to customize your play style. Romoving this without an equal or better replacement system just is not ok period. And lets not even begin top think of all of the players that have invested and fought through hours to days, some even weeks farming for their stance mods that they really wanted. Removing those is a kick in the face to those poor players...

That would be a horrible, horrible thing IMHO.  Stances are the best thing in the game and if anything they should be more diverse, provide more variety, and be available for all weapon types (Sniper stances, akimbo stances, melee stances that auto-taunt melee mobs, putting channeling back inside specific stances, etc.).

I've heard nothing about this and hope it's a rumor.  If it's not I'm seriously concerned. 

20 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

 

2. Channeling - Correct. Channel blocking is useless. But what about ummm...I dunno….."LIFE_STRIKE"? Not every frame can heal. Condition Overload with Healing return is nice, but what about the Crit Weapons that have low status? Life Strike is necessary and without the ability to control it through channeling it will become obsolete

I channel all the time and channeling itself is plenty useful (I use Healing Return more than life strike though).  I feel like it was the best way to properly scale melee and honestly don't feel like it's my fault that most of the content creators were doing Spin2Win or Windmill builds.  As far as I'm concerned I was doing melee better and making it viable against level 200+ enemies while toning it down so I wasn't one-shotting everything at lower levels.  (Enduring Affliction for scaling, Rage fueled channeling builds, lots of combo counter fuel with no combo counter support so it vanishes quickly, no pressure point, etc.)

I think this was more of a community problem that was created by people copying each other.  I was hoping DE would solve Spin2Win and Windmill by making un-invested melee less viable (not counting the combo counter for slide attacks and when outside your stance would have solved those problems in one go) and am a bit nervous about babies getting thrown away with the bathwater, especially with the melee we're seeing in the devstreams. 

Instead we're doing a full rework...which I DO like in a lot of ways...I think it's due and love some of what I'm seeing. (Directional slams?  Mobility when in the air? yes please!), but I'd like to see some examples of melee against hordes of enemies in the chaos rather than just @DE.Rebecca fighting individual mobs with a bunch of empty space around them. I just have no idea what to expect right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we're going to keep this combo system and split the attacks into light and heavy attacks on their own buttons, I would suggest that the damage percentages and activation methods of each move in a stance be looked at as well. Most combo-based combat systems (Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, etc.) result in the majority of players spamming the easiest to perform combo or just button mashing until something cool happens, even if they know a few of the combos, which is exactly what we're doing now, except we're only mashing one button: E. A way to prevent this would be to design something similar to Vindictus' combo-based melee combat system: where combos are made accessible via a branching tree system where performing a certain number of light attacks in a row unlocks a specific heavy attack, with each number of light attacks (in Lann's case 1-4) having its own unique heavy attack assigned to it, and, most importantly, a very high level of damage difference being present between light and heavy attacks, so that heavy attacks are the goal and light attacks are functionally just interactive cooldowns to prevent spamming overpowered moves. A system like this requires players to know the combos to be effective and prevents button mashing from being a viable meta.

Edited by Valthryn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

Stance Mods - I heard stance mods were being removed.

Fake news, just watch earlier devstreams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

1. Stance Mods - I heard stance mods were being removed. I love stance mods and stance combos. They make it so people don't mindlessly spam a single button. Some require much finesse which is great. They also allow my weapon to fight different from someone else with the same weapon and gives more freedom to customize your play style. Romoving this without an equal or better replacement system just is not ok period. And lets not even begin top think of all of the players that have invested and fought through hours to days, some even weeks farming for their stance mods that they really wanted. Removing those is a kick in the face to those poor players...

Nope,  these are staying. They're being changed to be unified in terms of how you use them (basically, stationary is one combo chain, attacking while moving is another, and block combos are the third) but, aside from that, all the stances are staying. If the dual dagger demonstration is any indication, they're actually taking steps to make stances more different - one dual daggers stance has the block combo start with a long, straight thrust similar to a DMC stinger move, whereas another has a wide leaping strike that covers less forward distance but hits wider.

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

2. Channeling - Correct. Channel blocking is useless. But what about ummm...I dunno….."LIFE_STRIKE"? Not every frame can heal. Condition Overload with Healing return is nice, but what about the Crit Weapons that have low status? Life Strike is necessary and without the ability to control it through channeling it will become obsolete

Unknown, but current theories put it on the heavy attack.

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

3. Spin to Win - Hated it, always will hate it. Excellent call DE. It honestly is just an abuse of an exploit that happened simply because you cannot predict every possibility that millions of players can try. 

Some questions still remain - how much Memeing strike has been touched remains to be seen - but if nothing else, it should be less prevelant since melee range is getting looked at, meaning it should be less dominant over regular stance play.

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki said:

4. Exalted Weapons - So....I was going through mods on my Wukong's exalted Staff.....No "BLOOD_RUSH", No "BODY_COUNT" on what is supposed to be a crit weapon. Yet I can use "CONDITION_OVERLOAD". I thought the whole purpose of separating mods was to make them more relevant? Well with this Exalted weapons are far less relevant than they ever were. Why would I use a weak exalted weapon, when by blood rush and body count standard melee is so much stronger? This should also be addressed in melee 3.0 and I feel like no one is looking at that. Exalted weapons either need to be fixed or replaced by an ability which we can actually use.

They've never mentioned this I'm afraid. Although, for right now, you can work around the blood rush body count with Wukong's passive combo duration and some of the set mods (gladiator, I think) which produce a mini body count. Not the best, but still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Nope,  these are staying. They're being changed to be unified in terms of how you use them (basically, stationary is one combo chain, attacking while moving is another, and block combos are the third) but, aside from that, all the stances are staying. If the dual dagger demonstration is any indication, they're actually taking steps to make stances more different - one dual daggers stance has the block combo start with a long, straight thrust similar to a DMC stinger move, whereas another has a wide leaping strike that covers less forward distance but hits wider.

Unknown, but current theories put it on the heavy attack.

Some questions still remain - how much Memeing strike has been touched remains to be seen - but if nothing else, it should be less prevelant since melee range is getting looked at, meaning it should be less dominant over regular stance play.

They've never mentioned this I'm afraid. Although, for right now, you can work around the blood rush body count with Wukong's passive combo duration and some of the set mods (gladiator, I think) which produce a mini body count. Not the best, but still.

The stance combos are being shaved down to two, the block as stated in the devstream was not a combo but changed to a distance clearer. The stationary and forward combos will be put  together from the movesets of the existing stances. Think Conclave stances essentially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Urlan said:

The stance combos are being shaved down to two, the block as stated in the devstream was not a combo but changed to a distance clearer. The stationary and forward combos will be put  together from the movesets of the existing stances. Think Conclave stances essentially.

I thought that too, but there were several moves they performed that didn't show up in either plain string when they demo'd them (for example, the Tempo Royale flip slam thing) and they always came after the gap closer, so it seems they have their own combo string.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I thought that too, but there were several moves they performed that didn't show up in either plain string when they demo'd them (for example, the Tempo Royale flip slam thing) and they always came after the gap closer, so it seems they have their own combo string.

The flip slam looked like the heavy attack to me. I think we really will only get 2 combos and a couple standalone moves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shave down the stances down to two combos, and melee will be obliterated.  It will be repeatitive and boring.  You don't make a system more fun by removing the fun elements and throwing in poor compensations (heavy attacks).

Think about games that do have strong melee capabilities.  I am thinking Kingdom Hearts.  The new Spiderman PS4.  Batman, Arkham.  The "simple" moves are beginner, and no one sticks with beginning moves only.  No, we unlock new skills and "gadgets" to create variation.  This is what makes melee in these other games fun.

Adding a "heavy attack" alone is not what creates variety.  It is a poor attempt to accomodate the variety of Stances and mobility.

  • Haha 2
  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

Shave down the stances down to two combos, and melee will be obliterated...

Some stances in the game right now only have 2 combos! LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I know dual wielding is coming with melee 3.0.  But I'm kind of curious what weapons will be able to do this.  As stated previously, one handed melee weapons will get this treatment, but tonight I thought of a weird corner case: Nikanas.  Two of the stances of the nikana are technically one handed, Tranquil Cleave and Blind Justice, while Decisive Judgment is two handed.  How would this work?  Would a Nikana with Decisive Judgment just not get to hold a pistol like the other two stances?  Would Nikanas just not be included in dual wielding at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vyrielle said:

So I know dual wielding is coming with melee 3.0.  But I'm kind of curious what weapons will be able to do this.  As stated previously, one handed melee weapons will get this treatment, but tonight I thought of a weird corner case: Nikanas.  Two of the stances of the nikana are technically one handed, Tranquil Cleave and Blind Justice, while Decisive Judgment is two handed.  How would this work?  Would a Nikana with Decisive Judgment just not get to hold a pistol like the other two stances?  Would Nikanas just not be included in dual wielding at all?

It's important to remember the context of these weapons. Nikana are separate from swords for a reason. They are by technicality two-handed weapons as the sheathe is part of the weapon as well. Warframe has styled these off of the Iaijutsu sword school so, dual-wielding with a firearm will not make sense with their current dynamic. 

Edited by (PS4)RenxHoshigaki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if you guys are removing channeling, will there be heavy finishers to replace channeled finisher? Or maybe increase the damage of finishers since channeling won't benefit them anylonger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...