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Melee: Present and Future goals!

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If we lose the combo multiplyer AND the easy combos melee 3.0 will be a huge nerf. No amount of fancy animation will save that.

First DE allowed maiming strike to ruin melee. Most players cant build a melee char without spin to win because they never needed to learn how to make it properly. Secondly DE throws out of the window their best working system.

Please learn from your past mistakes. Melee is great atm. With minor modifications it would be more accessible to more players. Kill/delete/burn maiming strike and its riven counterpart and replace the "hold" and "pause" combos. Thats all. Nothing mire needed.

We understand you have placed a lot of work (=money) into developing melee 3.0. Introduce it to conclave and then it wont go to waste. At the end we will tell you in the forums how great this decision is and how much more plat we will buy because not ruining the game. You can keep the investors happy and the players will be happy = clear win win situation.

On the other hand if you do it intentionally to keep us away from higjer lvl content by removing the ability to have an effective melee then please dont do it. Really. Please dont do it.

 

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1 hour ago, Csaszar said:

If we lose the combo multiplyer AND the easy combos melee 3.0 will be a huge nerf. No amount of fancy animation will save that.

First DE allowed maiming strike to ruin melee. Most players cant build a melee char without spin to win because they never needed to learn how to make it properly. Secondly DE throws out of the window their best working system.

Please learn from your past mistakes. Melee is great atm. With minor modifications it would be more accessible to more players. Kill/delete/burn maiming strike and its riven counterpart and replace the "hold" and "pause" combos. Thats all. Nothing mire needed.

We understand you have placed a lot of work (=money) into developing melee 3.0. Introduce it to conclave and then it wont go to waste. At the end we will tell you in the forums how great this decision is and how much more plat we will buy because not ruining the game. You can keep the investors happy and the players will be happy = clear win win situation.

On the other hand if you do it intentionally to keep us away from higjer lvl content by removing the ability to have an effective melee then please dont do it. Really. Please dont do it.

 

You say it like they wouldn't be adding in anything to replace the combo multiplier. They've delayed specifically because they're doing just that. It seems that the 'devil trigger' mode and greatly increased damage will replace the combo multiplier.

For example, in the demo in devstream 114, I went through and saw that the Kronen did 377 damage to a corrupted ancient. These weapons were being tested unmodded due to how the dev build commands work, so whilst I don't know the exact damage it's doing (Slash deals more damage to fossilised flesh type, and I'm not good enough at maths to deal with that), we do know that it has about 5X to 5.5X the base damage it did before. And I doubt they're going to just axe blood rush, body count, and so forth completely, so they may well take on new properties. This dev workshop isn't the final build, a lot of stuff has changed.

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I'm not sure why there needed to be so much unnecessary change to the combo counter. The little "Devil Trigger" mode you had could just be tied to Channeling while combos could be revamped. Since the reload command already isn't used in melee mode, that could easily have been the extra button that could be used.

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The question mark on the "Devil Trigger" reiteration of Channeling is just how responsive it will and if it can fill in what channeling does right now, which is reflex tanking with Life Strike.

 

4 hours ago, Csaszar said:

If we lose the combo multiplyer AND the easy combos melee 3.0 will be a huge nerf. No amount of fancy animation will save that.

First DE allowed maiming strike to ruin melee. Most players cant build a melee char without spin to win because they never needed to learn how to make it properly. Secondly DE throws out of the window their best working system.

Please learn from your past mistakes. Melee is great atm. With minor modifications it would be more accessible to more players. Kill/delete/burn maiming strike and its riven counterpart and replace the "hold" and "pause" combos. Thats all. Nothing mire needed.

We understand you have placed a lot of work (=money) into developing melee 3.0. Introduce it to conclave and then it wont go to waste. At the end we will tell you in the forums how great this decision is and how much more plat we will buy because not ruining the game. You can keep the investors happy and the players will be happy = clear win win situation.

On the other hand if you do it intentionally to keep us away from higjer lvl content by removing the ability to have an effective melee then please dont do it. Really. Please dont do it.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement. Maiming Strike and its riven counterpart modifier should just be cut without mercy, not tip-toed around. Though I do think there are some improvements that could be done for my dear staple melee. Assuming that the current movement lockdown is unintentional (if it is intentional, please please please reconsider melee needs to move around as fast as it can), we can get to actual things I could see improved on:

If there's one thing that I think should be changed, it'd rather be working combos to use two buttons (perhaps even three!) for a straight-forward brawler style of combos à la Yakuza or NieR: Automata for example. Since Warframe strike speed tends to be so fast (both in swinging like the Tasmanian Devil, and in how fast you must kill but bullets too slow) and the camera is behind the shoulder, having those two buttons contain two combo loops to switch between would good for mixing up your attacks rather than dial-up combos would be ideal.

Alternatively you could get the almost the same effect by either reworking combos to allow custom inputs, or have stances only use the three inputs that are functional in the context of Warframe's speed: Hold nothing, hold RMB, or hold Forward; with hold RMB taking priority over Forward. Rework of weapons and stances would be ideal too, since many stances are simply useless and many weapon categories have qualities that make them subpar like Fists having such a massive lack of range (one way could be making +range mods either give a flat increase or percentile increase based on a minimum increase).

The point in both is really to just allow mixing up combos based on functionality in a rapid, reflexive manner. Due to the need for speed, right now the melee ideal is to keep your combo to your "canned" choice (usually RMB hold), and focus instead of maneuvering and targeting quickly. One thing that should be considered in this that it isn't a bad thing to have combos and moves that can be used just for fun or indulgence because it's flashy and cool and doesn't hurt your play. Having the combo counter be turned into a super bar is a nice idea in that sense, if you don't really have to sacrifice anything for a move that you can use purely for the fun of it.

 

Also more weapons should bisect enemies, the gibs everywhere are one of the great joys of melee after all.

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6 hours ago, Csaszar said:

Melee is great atm. With minor modifications it would be more accessible to more players. Kill/delete/burn maiming strike and its riven counterpart and replace the "hold" and "pause" combos. Thats all. Nothing mire needed.

This is a really good point.  Melee was already in a really good place if you ignored maiming strike (they could also have put a timer on it, that would've solved the same set of issues.IMHO) and I'm honestly not sure how it's been treated like a sacred cow but channeling (which just needed some boosts to mods) is getting deleted completely.  

Heck, they could 'stealth nerf' maiming strike right now and the only people who would complain are the people who are have been leaning on it to the expense of everything else. 

I'm also kind of surprised we're not hearing more about using stances to ease this transition. It was ALWAYS an option to have most of melee 3.0 exist inside a subset of stances (or have channeling stances, mobility focused stances, even dual wielding stances) and when you get down to it unless you're just quick attacking stances ARE melee.

I don't want to see all the stances end up basically the same, I want a lot of variety in them...a good stance is like a good frame. DE should lean into that more.

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7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You say it like they wouldn't be adding in anything to replace the combo multiplier. They've delayed specifically because they're doing just that. It seems that the 'devil trigger' mode and greatly increased damage will replace the combo multiplier.

For example, in the demo in devstream 114, I went through and saw that the Kronen did 377 damage to a corrupted ancient. These weapons were being tested unmodded due to how the dev build commands work, so whilst I don't know the exact damage it's doing (Slash deals more damage to fossilised flesh type, and I'm not good enough at maths to deal with that), we do know that it has about 5X to 5.5X the base damage it did before. And I doubt they're going to just axe blood rush, body count, and so forth completely, so they may well take on new properties. This dev workshop isn't the final build, a lot of stuff has changed.

Melee is quite a conex system right now. A lot of factors decide how effective is. The current xombo system with channeling with the proper arcanes (easy to get ones) with the combo counter with player knowledge together make it shine. Its comex and it has answers for all the important questions includind sustained survivability.

See, i am not worried with the 10 min survivals - melee 3.0 will be designed for that.

I also fear the damned uniformity theese changes will bring. Flashy lacluster and underpowered.

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11 minutes ago, Csaszar said:

Melee is quite a conex system right now. A lot of factors decide how effective is. The current xombo system with channeling with the proper arcanes (easy to get ones) with the combo counter with player knowledge together make it shine. Its comex and it has answers for all the important questions includind sustained survivability.

See, i am not worried with the 10 min survivals - melee 3.0 will be designed for that.

I also fear the damned uniformity theese changes will bring. Flashy lacluster and underpowered.

Uniformity is one thing that I'm worried about, and a problem honestly think Melee suffers from currently anyway, which doesn't help.

Yeah, sure, each weapon and stances has different combos, but it's not really enough since a lot of them feel pretty similar. I mean... does using a pair of twin Krohkur really feel all that different to a Nikana? Or the Lesion from the Broken Scepter? Different damage values, different appearances, but there's nothing special discriminating them. If I'm honest, that's what I personally am hoping the 'Devil trigger' thing's for. Giving weapon classes something special all their own.

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Right now with a heavy zaw tempo royale exodia hunt combo counter and channeling i can do 1.5 hour MOT survival with the best damage and most kill. The combo counter is at 4x damage in a few mins. Thats with a melee Nekros. With Inaros or chroma i can do a lot more. Thats something that is achievable to anyone interested right now. The above setup has a clearing ability that melee 3.0 will not can not match or provide. We are all losing to this systematic nerf thats coming for melee.

Do math and use logic. There is no way 3.0 could even come close to the current melee efficiency when the best parts are taken out.

Raising base stats wont help because it wont be enough and the boost wont be too much. It cant be big enough because DE cant and wont make such a huge gap between melee and primary and secondary weapon stats.

Other thing is that killing the combo counter is not only taking away the 3-4.5x damage multiplyer (theese are easy to achive) but all the other bonuses they are coming from it (foe example the huge crit or status chance). On the top of that we loose channeling what is the best and biggest sustain and damage giver.

With the info we have now Melee 3.0 CANT COMPETE WITH THAT. 

Everyone will loose.

Ah the quick attack casual 10 min survival and leave at the first opportunity type wont. They lose already leaving the game best moments out.

DE should consider what will they do to the game if they will turn game design to support only theese type of playing.

 

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17 minutes ago, Csaszar said:

Right now with a heavy zaw tempo royale exodia hunt combo counter and channeling i can do 1.5 hour MOT survival with the best damage and most kill. The combo counter is at 4x damage in a few mins. Thats with a melee Nekros. With Inaros or chroma i can do a lot more. Thats something that is achievable to anyone interested right now. The above setup has a clearing ability that melee 3.0 will not can not match or provide. We are all losing to this systematic nerf thats coming for melee.

Do math and use logic. There is no way 3.0 could even come close to the current melee efficiency when the best parts are taken out.

Raising base stats wont help because it wont be enough and the boost wont be too much. It cant be big enough because DE cant and wont make such a huge gap between melee and primary and secondary weapon stats.

Other thing is that killing the combo counter is not only taking away the 3-4.5x damage multiplyer (theese are easy to achive) but all the other bonuses they are coming from it (foe example the huge crit or status chance). On the top of that we loose channeling what is the best and biggest sustain and damage giver.

With the info we have now Melee 3.0 CANT COMPETE WITH THAT. 

Everyone will loose.

Ah the quick attack casual 10 min survival and leave at the first opportunity type wont. They lose already leaving the game best moments out.

DE should consider what will they do to the game if they will turn game design to support only theese type of playing.

 

Pretty much sums up what I kept saying as well somewhere in this very own thread - I have the very same fears too. I just hope, that we are very wrong about this & it's just our fears speaking. And the only thing that can dissipate assumptions and fears, is devs coming and actually providing facts. It'd prevent a lot of panic-posting from knowledgeable and often passionate melee-users. Because yes, people who melee majority of their time in Warframe can make extrapolation based on what has been said already: And not only it seems less fun, but also less effective. Therefore, for people like me, it's hard to see any improvement, aside of melee looking pretty. But looking pretty does not equal better or more fun.

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I will be waiting with bated breath for more info from DE on this.  Hoping it does not end up harming melee effectiveness as it's my favorite part of the game. 

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There are some drawbacks to the combo counter as it is presently, namely that due to current mods and specifically Blood Rush the standout build in melee at the moment is using combo counter for a crit build. In a way, this is kind of a shame since it reduces build diversity when Blood Rush builds are clearly better a lot of the time. But it does point that the compensation to losing combo counter needs to be scaled appropriately, because the importance of even 2X much less 4X with Blood Rush can be enormous for melee DPS (especially because melee cannot reliably headshot and always needs to close distance). Additional note there too is that Blood Rush is a mod with unwarranted exclusivity to it (same as Maiming Strike really, but Maiming Strike is irredeemable well before that consideration), something that I think is not healthy for encouraging people to use melee as their main weapon or melee gameplay in general.

 

Another thing that's kind of overlooked but could be a notable improvement is doing away with the current air attacks for melee. Simply put, they're useless for everything except adding a tiny bit of distance to a jump and even there it's kind of superfluous. Often the only reason you get air attacks at all is because of momentum and downward terrain causing you to make one accidentally. It'd be better to instead add multiple hit air combo to each stance, so you can at least properly aim at and kill those Hellions when they're midflight.

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1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

There are some drawbacks to the combo counter as it is presently, namely that due to current mods and specifically Blood Rush the standout build in melee at the moment is using combo counter for a crit build. In a way, this is kind of a shame since it reduces build diversity when Blood Rush builds are clearly better a lot of the time.

Weeping Wounds is a thing, though. It comes down to base stats and if a weapon is better tuned for crit or status.

1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

But it does point that the compensation to losing combo counter needs to be scaled appropriately, because the importance of even 2X much less 4X with Blood Rush can be enormous for melee DPS (especially because melee cannot reliably headshot and always needs to close distance).

Except the meter is also going to build faster, meaning that 4x should be a little less crazy to reach. This is a good thing, because needing to reach such high hit counts means switching between guns/melee is needlessly punishing.

Currently players must commit to melee for it to be effective, which I (as a player who prefers melee) see as a bad thing. Dynamic use of our entire loadout should be encouraged.

1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Additional note there too is that Blood Rush is a mod with unwarranted exclusivity to it (same as Maiming Strike really, but Maiming Strike is irredeemable well before that consideration), something that I think is not healthy for encouraging people to use melee as their main weapon or melee gameplay in general.

Blood Rush is easily available with a generous drop chance from Lua Spy. Of course, it should be better documented as such a critical mod... But it's not actually Acolyte-exclusive.

1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Another thing that's kind of overlooked but could be a notable improvement is doing away with the current air attacks for melee. Simply put, they're useless for everything except adding a tiny bit of distance to a jump and even there it's kind of superfluous. Often the only reason you get air attacks at all is because of momentum and downward terrain causing you to make one accidentally.

I disagree. I regularly use air attacks to kill Ospreys and Hellions, and they're alot more reliable than trying to time specific high-hitbox combos from the ground on most stances.

1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

It'd be better to instead add multiple hit air combo to each stance, so you can at least properly aim at and kill those Hellions when they're midflight.

+1.

I dislike the air combos they showed in the streams because they look like they almost completely kill momentum. I think it would be much better for air combos to not ADD to momentum and allow multiple consecutive swings.

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Uh oh. Killing momentum? I don't like the sound of that. I guess I haven't looked at the air combos yet.

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15 minutes ago, Gnohme said:

Uh oh. Killing momentum? I don't like the sound of that. I guess I haven't looked at the air combos yet.

I don't know what he's talking about, but i probably missed the actual "air" combos, I did however see the new "air-to-ground" slam attack and it looks more like it preserves momentum; It doesn't look you into a "crouched" position afterwards

 

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6 minutes ago, helioth137 said:

I don't know what he's talking about, but i probably missed the actual "air" combos, I did however see the new "air-to-ground" slam attack and it looks more like it preserves momentum; It doesn't look you into a "crouched" position afterwards

 

Yeah the aimed slam does look badass. I need to watch more of the melee 3.0 videos from their streams so I can get a better idea how it's all coming together. 

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Reaching 4x combo counter isnt hard at all.

Either you use fast dual weapons or remain in a mission long enough.

Its needed only when effort is needed. For the star chart no effort is needed. Even the sortie missions are easy to do. The arbitrations are not hard but tedious needing only mediocre effort. At the time you would be challenged your party already left or dead anyway. The true challenge are the real endless missions - and thoose wont be melee doable with 3.0.

See thats the problem. Melee 3.0 is designed for mediocricy and designed for the star chart lvl of difficulty where no effort needed at all.

But even there it would fail miserably outside of solo playing because after the cinematic killing of 1 enemy the team already cleared the whole map. Consider this.

The current combos are not only very very effective but visually stunning and a joy to play. Tempo Royale is one of the most enjoyable and best looking way to play. Why to take it away? Strengthen the bad combos revise them, make them easyer to start but for god sake dont throw one of your best system out of the window.

I am aware you (DE) dont want us to actually do long runs and endless missions but getting no reward for doing them is a punishment enugh already you dont need to point it out wrecking the entire melee system too.

Edited by Csaszar
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4 hours ago, Csaszar said:

Reaching 4x combo counter isnt hard at all.

Either you use fast dual weapons or remain in a mission long enough.

Its needed only when effort is needed. For the star chart no effort is needed. Even the sortie missions are easy to do. The arbitrations are not hard but tedious needing only mediocre effort. At the time you would be challenged your party already left or dead anyway. The true challenge are the real endless missions - and thoose wont be melee doable with 3.0.

See thats the problem. Melee 3.0 is designed for mediocricy and designed for the star chart lvl of difficulty where no effort needed at all.

But even there it would fail miserably outside of solo playing because after the cinematic killing of 1 enemy the team already cleared the whole map. Consider this.

The current combos are not only very very effective but visually stunning and a joy to play. Tempo Royale is one of the most enjoyable and best looking way to play. Why to take it away? Strengthen the bad combos revise them, make them easyer to start but for god sake dont throw one of your best system out of the window.

I am aware you (DE) dont want us to actually do long runs and endless missions but getting no reward for doing them is a punishment enugh already you dont need to point it out wrecking the entire melee system too.

I can understand the points and worries you are bringing up

But it sounds like you have very, very little trust in the developers?

Did you forget that they are the same one's who designed the system as it is?

I'm sure an alternative to combo counter will come along, which will be better.

unless I'm missing something, I don't think they are removing stances???

Tempo Royal is also my favourite, so, good taste sir, good taste 😉

As for no rewards in infinite missions, i really disagree, 

Ranging from boosters to drops, you are rewarded

Edited by helioth137

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2 hours ago, helioth137 said:

Tempo Royal is also my favourite, so, good taste sir, good taste 😉

As for no rewards in infinite missions, i really disagree, 

Ranging from boosters to drops, you are rewarded

Edited 2 hours ago by helioth137

Only a select mission types give bonus mainly its not rewarded at all or not enough.

The problem isnt that i am greedy 🙂 but the players doesnt have a real incentive to remain in a mission. 10-20 mins are the standard max sadly. In sanctuary onslaught its either at the 4th or the 5th round because the difficulty and the gains are not balanced - at least the players feel that way - and act accordingly.

As an another example: doing Mot 20 min then starting again gives you the exact same chance to get that Axi relic you are after than staying there 60 min. That is what the real problem is. No incentive to stay in a mission longer than absolute neccessary. The boosters that came in the 2 mission types are so meager no one considers them really.

And sadly as far as we could know the special weapon stances like Tempo Royal will be replaced 😞 

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21 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Weeping Wounds is a thing, though. It comes down to base stats and if a weapon is better tuned for crit or status.

Except the meter is also going to build faster, meaning that 4x should be a little less crazy to reach. This is a good thing, because needing to reach such high hit counts means switching between guns/melee is needlessly punishing.

Currently players must commit to melee for it to be effective, which I (as a player who prefers melee) see as a bad thing. Dynamic use of our entire loadout should be encouraged.

Blood Rush is easily available with a generous drop chance from Lua Spy. Of course, it should be better documented as such a critical mod... But it's not actually Acolyte-exclusive.

I disagree. I regularly use air attacks to kill Ospreys and Hellions, and they're alot more reliable than trying to time specific high-hitbox combos from the ground on most stances.

+1.

I dislike the air combos they showed in the streams because they look like they almost completely kill momentum. I think it would be much better for air combos to not ADD to momentum and allow multiple consecutive swings.

Yea my bad on the exclusivity thing. I... I'm not sure how long it has been since I even did a Lua Spy. It's gotta be at least over a year. Like, damn.

Still, the interaction with the multiplier scaling mods is something I think melee 3.0 needs clarification on beforehand. Albeit, personally I figure they're honesty only a tiny bit less ridiculous than Maiming Strike, so maybe some other consideration should be done. But it's kinda like Multi-Shot, you can't really mess with it too much because of how things interact.

Anyway I totally agree, an air combo would really need to have no momentum of its own either for more or less (outside of maybe some sort of desired input, like say RMB air combo or something) and really just be something akin to the spinning lightsaber attack from SNES Star Wars games. That's the implementation style the air combo would really possess the most use, a repeating attack that moves like you otherwise would. Kind of similar situation with present wall-cling/run, the current single swipe is extremely clumsy and mostly something that just gets in your way by accident.

 

PS: Personally I just use a gun, make rude gestures at it, or pretend I don't notice it to hurt the feelings of a flying Hellion.

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I've been saying all this since the initial reveal, and I'll keep saying it.

Removing combo meter on normal attacks/ buffing base damage will make low level tissue paper enemies become even less satisfying to kill, and high level enemies dgaf about base damage without proper elements and status.

Burning your combo for one strike is inefficient. Spin attacks with Maiming Strike, Organ Shatter, Primed Reach, Primed Pressure and 4x elements will become the new meta, changing nothing. There is not one thing said in any post or stream from DE about nerfing Maiming, even though that's their "reasoning" for doing this in the first place.

Making hold forward a universal combo input is a terrible idea, as you will only end up getting stuck doing the same combo over and over again, as we saw in the streams with Reb showcasing them. Animation steps that hold you in place only make this even worse, as you swing at the air, hit nothing even though you're holding forward because you need to close distance ALWAYS with melee. "Closer" attacks are only going to make this even more annoying, as you'll only have one overly complication option, instead of simply being able to MOVE TOWARDS THE PERSON YOU'RE TRYING TO CUT.

Removing quick melee for this ^ is also not a good idea. Polearms are popular because their quickmelee is better than any polearm stance, simply because it doesn't restrict your movement. Shimmering Blight is a perfect example. The first two swings are a direct copy of the quickmelee, the third swing locks you in place to be shot.

People complain about Maiming Strike because of +range +combo duration RIVENS. NOT MAIMING STRIKE ITSELF. If Scoliac rivens got a disposition nerf months ago, no one would have cared anymore. They are the #1 weapon that's abused in this way, which is why those rivens were going for thousands of platinum.

Simply fixing the math behind the interaction of Blood Rush and Maiming in addition to rebalancing rivens would have fixed this, easily. Buffing weaker weapons like Fang Prime could have been done the same way as the Secondary and Primary passes, with no need to butcher base mechanics of the game.

Adding another energy sink with this "devil trigger" mode won't help. New players already don't even have proper access to their abilities until they get Rage/ Adrenaline, Energy Pizzas or spend an inordinate amount of time grinding focus.

But hey, "rebalancing" melee will sell forma bundles and drive up interest in rivens, just like releasing primed versions of 5/5 disposition weapons like Gram Prime.

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With implied switching taking away “quick melee” as a concept I honestly think the better approach is to dig harder into “melee combos lock you in place with discrete root motion steps forward” and just make it so every melee weapon has access to the “quick melee endless loop” if they melee while sprinting. Give players the Raiden Ninja Run 1-2 slash combo and be done with it; for clearing hordes of grunts this (combined with high mobility) will make all melee weapons feel “mobile” while freeing the devs up to make the core melee rework closer to actual action game design with stationary combos based on positioning. Instead of this current weird half-and-half mixture where you can sort of run around kinda comboing and sometimes lock in place with odd timing between the hitboxes and lurching forward steps.

Bonus points for giving different attacks a different amount of combo multiplier increase, so that sprint-slaughter can be used to maintain the multiplier but only intentional combos can really effectively build it; if you pair that with a much higher rate of combo meter increase for actual combos (versus dash and slash), you can balance melee around comboing/juggling high priority targets and dashing around one-shotting the scraps at full speed until the next high priority targets spawn.

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Saludos

Desde la última actualización para Xbox One llamada 'Quimera', el mod de guardia para armas de asta llamado 'Maldición fulgurante' (Shimmering Blight) ha dejado de funcionar como antes de dicha actualización ... Ahora, al golpear se detiene en seco tras varios golpes (momentum) lo que provoca que no se pueda avanzar luchando y golpeando enemigos, o sea, que ya no se puede avanzar libremente golpeando enemigos como antes, algo que hace que te maten cuando se produce esa detención de movimiento, ya que justo en esos instantes, hasta que se inicia de nuevo el combo, no puedes hacer nada, y los enemigos te matan ...

Vamos a ver, señoras y señores de Digital Extremes, ¿a quién se le ha ocurrido la genial idea de cambiar el mejor mod de guardia de armas de asta del juego? ... ¿A quién se le ha ocurrido la genial idea de provocar que el mod detenga los movimientos (momentum) del warframe en pleno combate? ... 

Llevo casi 700 días en Warframe, y siempre juego en modo melé, a no ser de que por las directrices de la misión, deba usar otro tipo de armas ... Desde la fatídica actualización, no puedo luchar correctamente, ya que al detenerse los movimientos del warframe (momentum) los enemigos me dan caza y muero sin poder remediarlo, porque el warframe se queda absolutamente inmóvil y los enemigos me matan a placer ...

Por favor, Digital Extremes, en nombre de todos los que pensamos que han cometido un grave error al modificar ese mod, rectifiquen y devuélvannos el antiguo mod 'Maldición fulgurante' (Shimmering Blight) ...

El nuevo modo de combate Melee 3.0 que nos quieren obligar a utilizar, simplemente, no funcionará ... El hecho de que modifiquen las armas a melé para que todas, o casi, tengan los mismos combos, mismos movimientos y/o ataques, será un fracaso y no hará que más personas jueguen Warframe ...

Creo que les vendría bien recordar esa máxima que dice: Si algo funciona, ¿para qué cambiarlo? ...

Muchas gracias.

Master Tutak

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The sentiment that spin-to-win ruined melee already, and that maiming strike and ALL its riven counterparts/buffs be completely removed, or sub out that buff completely for something else. Whichever way it needs to happen, it needs to happen. Start with that. And no adding a substitute for it either that would be counter-productive. IMO just completely remove that buff and any trace of it.

Removing the combo multiplier doesnt seem like a sound idea, that's the one unique system we have that works well. You change/remove that, and there goes the entire way we use melee altogether. You'd be completely gutting one of the best features of Warframe that really isnt broken aside from noob--to-win. A slight addition or change will refresh the melee system, but completely rehauling it  is a bad idea.

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Honestly though maiming strike isn’t the reason spin2win predominates, its popularity is a symptom of spin2win’s dominance. It may have helped to cement the slide attack’s value as melee’s best real end-game option due to its extreme abusability, but even without it spin-spam has been a fact of Warframe since coptering.

The real problem is that slide attacks give you 2 things: (1) a big radial AOE hitbox, and (2) the ability to maintain your speed while generating said hitbox. In a game where all but the highest level content being run involves one-shotting enemies by the dozens, that’s always going to be the best choice of attack. Any attack that either interrupts momentum or has a smaller or harder-to-position hitbox will be sub-optimal if hitbox overlap = instant enemy death.

The real challenge is understanding the reality that Warframe is a game about one-shotting or two-shotting enemies as you encounter them and quickly moving on, and developing a satisfying combo-based melee system demands that this not be the case. If everything died in one hit, Bayo/DMC/GoW/whatever else DE is attempting to model their combat after would be an exercise in frustration and tedium.

So really, the only choices are to embrace spin2win as Melee’s Role In Warframe (by leaving melee as a means of oneshotting), nerf melee to a point that it loses its endgame viability (by taking away its ability to oneshot), or completely reimagine melee’s role in Warframe as something other than a means of DPS (by taking away its ability to oneshot ON ITS OWN but making it a useful complement to the oneshot-capable parts of your kit)

Realistically I don’t think anyone will be happy with the decision to do anything but the first option, which means whatever rework DE plans, it will fall into disuse just like Melee 2.0’s combo system did while maxed-Reach slide attacks and/or full sprint E spam continue to be the only worthwhile use of your melee weapon

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2 hours ago, RhythmScript said:

Honestly though maiming strike isn’t the reason spin2win predominates, its popularity is a symptom of spin2win’s dominance. It may have helped to cement the slide attack’s value as melee’s best real end-game option due to its extreme abusability, but even without it spin-spam has been a fact of Warframe since coptering.

The real problem is that slide attacks give you 2 things: (1) a big radial AOE hitbox, and (2) the ability to maintain your speed while generating said hitbox. In a game where all but the highest level content being run involves one-shotting enemies by the dozens, that’s always going to be the best choice of attack. Any attack that either interrupts momentum or has a smaller or harder-to-position hitbox will be sub-optimal if hitbox overlap = instant enemy death.

The real challenge is understanding the reality that Warframe is a game about one-shotting or two-shotting enemies as you encounter them and quickly moving on, and developing a satisfying combo-based melee system demands that this not be the case. If everything died in one hit, Bayo/DMC/GoW/whatever else DE is attempting to model their combat after would be an exercise in frustration and tedium.

So really, the only choices are to embrace spin2win as Melee’s Role In Warframe (by leaving melee as a means of oneshotting), nerf melee to a point that it loses its endgame viability (by taking away its ability to oneshot), or completely reimagine melee’s role in Warframe as something other than a means of DPS (by taking away its ability to oneshot ON ITS OWN but making it a useful complement to the oneshot-capable parts of your kit)

Realistically I don’t think anyone will be happy with the decision to do anything but the first option, which means whatever rework DE plans, it will fall into disuse just like Melee 2.0’s combo system did while maxed-Reach slide attacks and/or full sprint E spam continue to be the only worthwhile use of your melee weapon

This is just flat out wrong and a bad POV without understanding the underlying issue: balance. Nothing in the game scales like the enemy armor does, or like enemy damage does. The reason people use spin to win is because they find it difficult to deal with said mobs by any other means. And while most of the time it's against enemies that just require a little skill, at the extreme side of this, spin-to-win would definitely be the endgame as it's the only thing reliable enough to keep pace at extreme levels where one-shotting OTHER than S2W is impossible. Which is the problem: we have (or rather, dont have) end game where the best option for survival is a broken mechanic that takes zero skill or effort. The fact that S2W exists is a glaring beacon on the fact that we need proper endgame, and proper balancing of armor and damage scaling.

 

Maybe DE should look into the fact that melee is the only thing that scales it's damage (combo multiplier). Without it, even S2W would have it's damage capped to mods. Perhaps, as a suggestion, maybe DE should look into other forms of damage scaling in a similar way. But no, we need to get rid of S2W completely. People need to learn how to play properly. At the same time, that kinda also needs to be possible.

Edited by AresTheLegendary
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