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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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43 minutes ago, lihimsidhe said:

Before I begin with Warframe's combat system, I'd like to briefly talk about Devil May Cry's combat system.  Without going into too much detail the player does not have to choose between 'firearm mode' or 'melee mode'.  It also has a unified combo system.  Meaning that regardless of the weapon a DMC player has the combos they learned for their first weapon works on any subsequent weapon they acquire.

While there is a lot more to DMC's combat than that, Capcom's approach has created a combat system that is near peerless in its execution.

Warframe is a different game on many levels so a straight copy and paste into Warframe wouldn't work well as any of us would hope.  However, there are 2 things Warframe can import from DMC that would work wonders:

  • The elimination of 'firearm mode' and 'melee mode'.  
  • The implementation of universal combos.

How this would work is by using the formerly named quick melee button as the gateway to launch into all of a weapon's combos.  

By this train of thought, a Tenno could also block at anytime by having a dedicated block command which could either be a single key press and/or a combination of key press.

Finally the elimination of 'firearm mode' and 'melee mode' would allow a player to channel at any time they so choose.  It should buff firearms and melee.  Deplete energy per shot fired with a firearm and deplete energy per enemy struck with a melee weapon and per attack blocked.

As for the combos themselves every weapon should have at least two combos: an AoE dedicated combo (because Warframe is a horde based game) and a single target focused combo in the rare event there are enemies which aren't hordes but challenging (I'm looking at you Nox).

The above suggestions would breathe new life into melee, allow channeling to be saved and to make it useful, and would be much less work than going in a whole new direction.

As an avid DMC player and 4 year Warframe vet, I agree that having access to all our melee abilities right at our finger tips is a good idea... in large part, I think this is why many of us rely on spin so much. Because it's instant, it's mobile, and it tends to hit crowds of enemies.

If you wanted to do away with melee-only mode, you would need to develop the context melee attacks more. Spin, Slam, and Air melee. Which all occur under context of hitting melee while sliding, while falling, and while falling with style.

If that were to happen, we could even salvage block as an aiming + melee input combination. Then make the stances for each weapon totally change the basic combo, AND the spin, slam, and air attacks. Possibly even let these 3 context attacks lead into combos of their own? This would allow stances to be well rounded and interesting:

  • -spin attacks to become unique distance closing attacks. -example: Something like the classic Stinger from DMC? Or that multi-swing strike that Agni and Rudra does. Or any of Virgil's distance closers.
  • -slam attacks leading into powerful ground pound combos, that keep the enemy prone or some other utility. Not simply "knock them down and do a ground finisher."
  • -air attacks leading into powerful multi strike combos that keep the enemy (and yourself) moving through the air.
  • -attack after a roll or while sprinting, kind of like Dark Souls? Leading into a low-blow style combo, to trip up enemies, without needing to jump slam first.
  • -blocking could simply be aim + hold melee. Which could then be pulled out in a split seconds notice. Allowing more skilled and fluid use of an otherwise sidelined mechanic. In the time you NEED to block, the time it takes to ACTUALLY Block... we might as well not have the feature.

Warframe's combo counter could become like the DMC style meter, favoring mixing up your attacks over spam. Without necessarily copying the aesthetic presentation. No S-S-STYLISH combos. But we could have a Warframe appropriate graphical representation of combo gain and combo decay.

This in my opinion would be the best way to make warframe's melee combat instant, reliable, and revitalize the move variety with combos previously buried in timing chains.

This would remove...

  • Channeling. Instant body disposal could be moved over to stealth attacks, fatal finishers, and OHKO's on unalerted enemies. Rewarding stealth play.
  • Heavy Attacks. As a player who's never used the feature, I'm not particularly attached. Having access to the whole arsenal of melee moves at all times is more important to me a new feature that I may even appreciate or use if implemented. Especially if it requires melee-only mode.

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8 minutes ago, DhatZ said:

I only played the reboot of DMC on PC but the differences are obvious. I can't even think that warframe would work with enemies being comboed in air, however I agree the biggest pain in the current melee is the S#&$ timer on aerial attacks.

I just want them to put the slam on the heavy attack button and the aerial to be JUST forward facing normal attacks but in the air.

Also get rid of wall attacks, just use the slam or targeted air melee when latching.

The only slight problem is that aim gliding will need to be combined with blocking in the air.

To be honest with you, I was in a rush to post because I feel very strongly about this topic.  I should have posted a Ninja Gaiden video as its enemies don't float in the air when you attack or shoot them.  I don't mind that per se but it doesn't fit within Warframe's narrative.  Then again... we have a Jolly Rancher colored dancing music frame so....

I personally wall latch all the time.  I just don't use the wall attack because when I do in higher end content, I get myself killed more often than not.  In lower end content I just... miss.  Constantly.  It's awful.  I'd rather see DE do it justice than to get rid of it.

As for the aim glide plus blocking that can be solved by blocking being a multi key press.  So you are aim gliding and if you want to block, press two keys at once.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

And last but not least, and sadly what only looks like one bullet point but actually touches well over 100 weapons, and is in fact parallel to the depth of the Secondary/Primary rework we did this year:

Just a reminder, you guys forgot about the Acrid and Stug in the weapon changes.

Edited by Madway7
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So now that DE is done deleting most of the critical posts... this entire rework is unnecessary. It's overkill to fix a handful of smaller problems.

Go back to the drawing board, pinpoint the issues melee has and fix those. A complete rework is going to cause far more problems than it will fix.

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Melee not going through walls: Yes

Melee not going through objects: What's an object?

Is it gonna be little ledges in the geometry? Any tiny obstacle? What? This sounds destined to make melee buggy and unusable through sheer coding related nonsense.

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well, a heavier attack is pretty much the same thing. though you could still have a modifier to change normal/heavy into a third and fourth type, yes.

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So what would this mean for frame abilities that use or scale off of the combo counter? Like atlas' landslide or wukongs primal fury for example?

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I'm intrigued by these changes. It's pretty concerning initially because while it defeats the aforementioned spin to win meta (which I don't care for in the slightest), it'll also undermine the more legitimate playstyles one can achieve with combo duration mods, blood rush, and standard melee gameplay. I worry that simply raising the base damage of melee weapons might not be enough to make up for the proposed changes to the combo counter and basic melee attacks. At the very least, I think the entire melee weapon arsenal will need to have dramatic improvements to their base crit and status chances, otherwise melee-centric playstyles might be at risk of being significantly weaker than the alternatives. Though I suspect the accompanying stat review to melee weapons would deal with that issue anyway. I also think the new charge/heavy attacks will need to have better damage, crit, and status properties than the weapon's base stats. If the whole point of the combo buildup is to spend it all on a single attack, it needs to feel powerful and rewarding when it happens, otherwise the new combo counter aspect of this system will feel like a complete bummer.

I am looking forward to trying this new melee system. Disregarding spin to win playstyles, even current standard melee gameplay can feel pretty bland and static. The concepts shown in the workshop demo videos look like they have the potential to be a lot more fun and engaging. I really like the new directional slam attacks; with more polished animations those are going to be amazing for sure. I also really approve of the stance+combo unification, I think that will go a long way towards making all melee weapon classes feel viable.

Lastly, I'm really excited about the full melee+secondary dual-wielding being implemented. I could see that becoming my go-to playstyle in this new system.

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all im saying is pls keep the dmg aspect of channel. dont just put it into blocking....that would be a huge waste. improve the damaging aspect and keep it alongside the blocking.

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Excluding melee though walls which was a bit too op - Im a bit apprehensive with the purposed changes. Seem like they are based around people that didn't know how to use the systems already in place that where perfect.

Well if your gonna mess it all up, Might as well be wile player counts are low so what good is now is never missed.

Maybe the new generation of players can get baby rattles too.

Doubtful changes will make melee more fun but if anything less fun,

I'll try to be hopeful.

Edited by 5nak3Doctor
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Will the Dodge cancel simply interrupt the attack recovery (as in DMC) or will it be a Dodge Offset (as in Bayo, MGR) where you can continue the attack chain where you left off?

Also, will the inclusion of launchers mean there will be more aerial options?

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please please please no... please do not make the combo counter only apply to heavy attacks please just don't. I Hate heavy attacks thay are way to slow have to much momentum and are just in general worthless, rework them sure but do not murder the combo counter

 

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Unless you're providing a substantial boost to base melee damage across the board, combo counter only applying to heavy attacks and also spending all your combo sounds like a terrible idea.

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Justo ahora, ShogunGunshow dijo:

Unless you're providing a substantial boost to base melee damage across the board, combo counter only applying to heavy attacks and also spending all your combo sounds like a terrible idea.

Absolutely agree

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1 hour ago, KubrowTamer said:

thats your fault and yours alone

I disagree, the fault comes from the kids complaining of meme strike builds (You know, the ones with their Rank 0 weapons or mr fodder expecting to get a kill and waste everyone's time or drag longer the bloody grind). Now I will have to re-forma all my melee weapons and I am sure I am not alone on this. Not to mention it will make some weapons I like even more useless.

Just like the kids who complained about Embers old WOF build, look at her now, collecting dust in my armory. Useless.

Edited by NecromancerX69
Forgot to add mr fodder
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49 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Just to preface this, I've been playing for about 5 years now with in-game hours sitting at ~3,500. My most used frames are Ash and Valkyr, as I love melee very much in this game.
I especially loves Scythes, but that's besides the point for now. My point is that it would be apt to call me a Melee main just for context. My points are below in bold.

Unfortunately I'm a goon and forgot some points:
Combo counter being completely lost after the timer runs out still feels bad to this very day. 
It should work like how Naramon's Power Spike passive node works exactly at it's max rank, then you can just change Power Spike to something else entirely.

 

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@[DE]Rebecca

what will happen to rivens featuring channeling damage/efficiency ? i do have rivens with either or both and i didnt get them to buff blocked channeling but as an alternative to add some damage alongside condition overload on a status build. what will happen with these 2 stats ? personally speaking it would result in trash rivens for me if channeling was all about blocking soon.

i know this might sound strange, but would it be possible for those with channeling rivens to choose an alternate stat for that riven once the melee update hits ? personally i didnt use these rivens by accident...i WANTED channel on them and now that this is probably changed i hope it wont just become a case of rage-endoing. letting players choose another stat instead would not hurt anybody and compensate the change without issues. we do not get a melee overhaul/such stat changes often so such a special case would seem appropriate in my opinion. usually i wouldnt suggest allowing to choose stats on a riven, but considering this "special" case i think its not unjustified.

 

greetings~

 

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Il y a 2 heures, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Scenes like this are all too common, our data shows this method in particular is often abused by automation, and our minds show it just simply isn't fun.

Maybe game should be a little bit less grindy? I think that the main root of the problem. 

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Yay nice, the only thing I feel missing are the stats for combos in-game. As of now the ingame screen only shows input, hiding the effective potential of a combo behind test or more commonly the Wiki. But combos are much more of that: multiple hits in one input, hits with different damage multipliers, forced procs, knockback, knockdown, ragdoll and finisher opening. Maybe even more than that!

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Been trying to mull over this topic, again and again. Cannot really say I was able to change my opinion much, despite of really trying - the removal and very impacting change of how combo-counter and its' multipliers affecting the basic weapons' damage, being main reason for my opinion.

The reason I find melee fun - for the record, I melee almost exclusively, and have way over 3k hours of in mission time, with melee-centric Warframe & style - so I believe I speak as someone, who's played a lot of ingame content, to be able to deduce why said system was fun, and why the proposed changes seem much less appealing, fun and efficient in comparison. 

  • Fast-paced
  • Dynamic
  • Scaleable  (combo multipliers being applied to base damage)
  • Efficient, due to the speed + scaleability

Problem with combos in general, is they are often clunky and static, therefore, in a game, when you're Zerg-rushed by bazillion of enemies, their efficiency is heavily reduced. Likewise, relying on 'heavy' attacks, that get boosted by the combo-multiplier in the new system - too situational, and applicable much less readily; again, when enemies keep swarming in. I love the mass Zerg-rushing of enemies, but I had ways to deal with it, in a way that I found enjoyable - having that potentially reduced feels less than stellar to me.

I do understand the removal of punchthrough - but some people did raise a valid criticism, as to why removing it altogether from melee is bad. We'll see how that one affects the melee gameplay.

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Well, I can see you wish for a more sophisticated melee combat system, which seems very desirable, but you have me a bit worried that this might make it less fun than it is right now.

Am I saying this because spin to win is damn strong right now? Yes, probably plays a big part in it.

Here's my opinion what should be paramount in designing the melee combat for warframe, do with it as you please, I don't care too much about the cool factor, but if you kill the momentum, it'll be frustrating, and dying because your character suddenly decided to take it slowly is less fun than spinning against a wall for an hour.

So, if I get the idea to use your new jump attack mechanic, and I hover slowly in the air for 2 seconds because the game wanted to be nice and give me time to aim, and then a bombard's rocket hits me, I'll be having very little fun.

Same bombard, most likely a different location, I try dispatching that guy up close and personal, but notice too late that my first 3 attacks didn't connect because the game is realistic enough to decide it was illogical for my weapon to go through the side of a terminal, but not realistic enough to simply strike in one of the many ways from my position where the weapon wasn't obstructed.

Other than those fears of mine, I think the dodge cancelling is a step in the right direction, and the other changes you named seem very interesting.

 

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Melee is one of my favorite systems in this amazing game.  I'm very excited to see these changes.  Will Naramon focus be adjusted for this?  Did anyone catch when this is coming?  I'm hoping for the Mainline update next week (fingers crossed) but this looks workload intensive and I couldn't tell if this has been a wip for some time or just recently...

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In general I support these ideas and the rework. I think less cheese is better for the game, and if properly done, melee could become a system that rewards skilled play quite well.

I do however feel that several things need to be clarified/perhaps rethought:

#1 - How much better will the base damage of melee weapons be? Currently the highest damage for a primary weapon is the Tigris Prime at 1560. By contrast the highest base damage of a melee weapon is the Arca Titron at 180. Can we expect this number to grow to something like 800-1000 base damage or something for a top end melee weapon given the removal of quick melee combo counter?

#2 - Some more clarification on how Critical melee scaling and blood rush works is needed. I am not personally opposed to having Condition Overload status builds scale more since you have to put a lot of work into getting them to high levels. If blood rush is only to apply to heavy attacks now (as its tie in to combo counter suggests), we will likely need to see True Steel buffed by a lot (like to 100-120% values), quite possibly the introduction of a primed True Steel, and Organ Shatter will likely need to be buffed to 100+% to keep crit melee competitive. Even with this, base crit chance melee values will need to be much higher than the equivalent Primary/Secondary values just to make getting yellow+orange crits viable.

#3 - Is the plan with reach mods to make them flat values (i.e. +0.5-2.5 meters)? I wouldn't mind this personally since it gives benefit to small range weapons that need them more, while also not making too much difference for long range melee weapons. I also feel like Primed Reach doesn't need to be quite as massive an upgrade to standard reach in this regard.

#4 - Will Combo counter still feature a combo decay, or will it be stored give that it is only used for heavy attacks now? In a lot of ways, I would much prefer to have it stored since the extra slot for another melee mod would be nice.

#5 - Will Zenurik Channeling + Naramon Combo Decay get modified post rework?

#6 - How will Life Strike work post channeling? Will it become something like a flat value per melee strike, or will it be based on blocked damage?

#7 - Since mods like Condition Overload are what help status melee to compete, is it wise to have them locked behind a very unreliable grind? It just seems a lot harder to get this mod compared to how essential it is for many builds. I love mine, it just seems hard to get for how much it is needed in status melee builds.

#8 - Have you considered making channeling energy work in a similar way to amp energy? It seems like this is the best overall solution for the problem since melee channeling is unpopular because nobody likes using our limited energy for small overall damage benefits in most cases. Instead of totally taking away channeling, and I'm not sure how this would work on a controller, but could the reload be repurposed for melee channeling mode while in pure melee mode (the button acting as a toggle on and off essentially)? This + the independent melee channeling energy would make channeling a lot more attractive overall. It would also save having to replace the current channeling mods, and likely make them a lot more attractive overall. It also saves you from have to rework all of the different channeling mechanics.

#9 - Will the Aerial Attacks get buffed at all? These strike me as requiring the most precise timing with weapons, so it would be nice to have them rewarded a bit more compared to the easier to execute slide attacks.

p.s. love the heavy attack button + the stance reworks. The current mechanics behind these are just clunky, and I must admit, I'm kind of trash at doing the current stance moves (beyond the basic slide, jump, block, and air combos), so I mostly execute them by accident. Also love the dual wielding concept.

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