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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We all use it - even us here. The dizzying yet super-effective slaughter-tornado that can make all other Arsenal options obsolete. But spin to win and melee going through walls - should it stay the way it is? At present time, we don't think so.


via GIPHY

We do not think Melee is at its best when you are facing a wall and spinning into it over and over again. And if we do not address that, any work invested in our melee rework could be wasted. We want to make melee better overall. Primary and Secondary weapons have all gotten pretty painless overhauls this year. Melee's turn is coming.
 

via GIPHY

Scenes like this are all too common, our data shows this method in particular is often abused by automation, and our minds show it just simply isn't fun.


The melee review is taking the longest. It has the most complexity - you can equip Melee, use combos, channel, stealth kill, hit multiple targets, and so on. Removing the clear 'spin to win through walls' is our first step in this plan of making all things melee engagement better.

The first change melee will see before it's broader review is a change to how melee attacks work. The coming change:
 

  • Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

 

As for the rest of the steps? What follows is an open door to what we're working on internally. This may not release exactly as described here, but we want everyone to be on the same page of what our plans are.
 

  • While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
  • Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.
  • We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.
  • Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.
  • Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.
  • You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!
  • Dodge canceling any melee attack!
  • FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.
  • Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 


And last but not least, and sadly what only looks like one bullet point but actually touches well over 100 weapons, and is in fact parallel to the depth of the Secondary/Primary rework we did this year:
 

  • Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.
  • Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks
  • Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!


These videos show what we have so far. The first is showing quick attacks and heavy attacks together, with emphasis on direction ground attacks. The second video hows you how combat looks against invincible enemies so you can get a feel!

OK, these changes are really fu¢king awesome but one thing that I suggest is leave the light attack scaling damage with combos... 

It feels great climbing the combos and getting really nice damage boosts all around. Otherwise, I am SOOOO HYPED for this. It looks so cool

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack. 

Careful with this one.  The damage supplied by the combo counter system and builds which exploit it will require extreme buffs to counter act, unless the intent is to nerf those.  I'm OK with that, just acknowledge it.

I'm not a melee enthusiast.  I would lament loss of the channeling mechanic as a damage source, but my preferred "battle stance" does not recognize the concept of equipping melee and waiting for a holster animation.  Blocking, combos, and channeling do not exist for me.  I would like to see those animations, as I'm sure their animators would like them to be seen, but unless I'm screwing around, the combat flow won't permit it. 

These changes will require massive reworks of half of the melee arcanes, mods, interfaces and builds to properly support.  I just hope its not released half baked and when the dust settles everyone finds their place again and some deeper part of melee make it into the always-on command set.  "You do not equip your blade.  It is always at the ready."

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To be perfectly honest as much as I'm concern about the range change (mainly because the amount of resources I sank into primed reach) the possible hangs I'm most worried about is the potential changes to blocking because I really like using the Silva and Aegis Prime but a large part of that weapon is its blocking and any changes to blocking would potentially be a huge Nerf to it, but not only that you be saying "Hey guys if you want to Tank you HAVE to take out a far that can draw the enemies agro with its abilities cause that's the only effective way to do it now".

Let me clarify on that last point but saying IF and that's a big if at that, that blocking ends up consuming energy per hit blocked then it will quickly deplete you reserves where as a frame using an ability uses a chuck of energy the ability can out last a block like that when there's a large number of enemies tainted or fast attacking ones.

So what I'm saying is as much as I love you guys DE please don't make it so I can't effectively tank in anything other than the "proper" tank frame like rhino cause I really do enjoy doing it in things like frost and oberon

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1) For melee attacks not going through objects and walls - exclude closed doors from this. That could get frustrating with laggy hosts.
2) Find a way to keep the channeling effects in some way
3) If you are giving melee 100% block damage now... what will you do for sword and boards?
4) Allow dual wielding of secondary and any sword and board. AKA using the shield with the secondary.

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb DatDarkOne:

I also agree with this.  I like using channeled attacks this way.  

i use it on some builds with rivens specifically for channel to create artificial crits basically for 1 energy with around 2.2 multiplier...artificial crit is a stretch maybe since its 100% on every attack but still. the combination of crit viability, condition overload and channeling mixed into one drink is actually insta dead drunk state damage wise. its a shame most ppl copy paste the opinion of others since channeling just needs some improvements on mods. the -efficiency is just too silly to make it worth the positive of most mods so in my opinion the energy economy of channeling just needs improvement. maybe also improving the actual math behind +channeling damage would help too since it doesnt really do what one would expect from the numbers. 

my scindo prime on such a build ended up doing 14k dmg per crit attack without combo counter and stealth. condition overload not added into that, neither stance multipliers. i rly wish ppl wouldve tested other things out more. it surely doesnt scale infinitely as combo does but it can still go vs rly high lv enemies without combo counter. i think if more ppl played around with that it would be more obvious statistics wise that channeling just needs improvement, surely not removal from the game or 100% focus into blocking. maybe i misunderstand what they exactly mean by that but it sounds to me like i will have to endo these rivens so very sadly. i do hope it wont come to that but....

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I want to say I am super excited for everything here! I can't wait to hear more details. I do have a few questions and hopes that aren't covered here:

Are there any plans to help sword and shield weapons aid in a support/tank playstyle? The weapon type doesn't really offer anything in that regard that other melee weapons don't. On top of that we don't really have any weapons that help a player fulfill a support role, with the possible exception of the sancti magistar. Electromagnetic Shielding and Guardian Derision are alright but they both have very limited range, and the latter mod's effects are highly erratic at best. A few thoughts include making effects similar to the mentioned mods' innate to the weapon type (preferably with better range and more reliable); projecting an energy barrier while blocking that stops projectiles (similar in function to volt's shield, allowing you to protect allies from enemy fire); ability to add damage blocked to next heavy attack in the manner of Avenging Truth.

Will we be able dual wield sword & shield weapons? I thought I heard it mentioned as an option but I can't find it referenced anywhere. Pistol and shield could be a fun combo that I don't see often in games, and trading aiming for blocking could be an interesting choice.

With the stated focus on slam attacks, will AoE slam damage scale with mods? Side note: the directional slam attacks look amazing.

Will weapons with unique charge attack functions - notably glaives, blade-whips, and gunblades - function more smoothly like the current dual wielded glaives do? Will we see thrown glaives and other special attacks (caustacyst, plague star arcanes) benefit from or otherwise interact with the combo counter? On a similar note are there any plans to make the broken scepter's health/energy restore flow better with the pace of gameplay?

Could we get some sort of unique ability for the kesheg? Near invulnerability is not a good idea, but it would be nice to have something that reflects its place in the lore rather than just another polearm.

Sorry for the word vomit, but I am really excited for this update. Can't wait to see more soon!

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vor 35 Minuten schrieb AcidLynx:

Just delete maiming strike and problems with spin2win is ended 😕

the math behind bloodrush is the issue, not maiming strike. pls blame whos rly at fault, not the one who might just seem to be.

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*Deep sigh*

If there's really nothing the community can do to dissuade you from these changes, then at least be ready to roll back the changes after the community backlash when they drop. Like you said at the start of the post, everyone uses melee.

Warframe is a fast paced game at its highest level, and while these slow attacks and animations look nice in videos, and are certainly something to interest new players, actual Warframe players won't use something that is slow, inefficient and far more complicated than the reward it provides.

Let us not forget that there WILL be bugs, and with a change like this that means melee attacks not registering, which is extremely frustrating. As a lark, when this update goes through, I will probably play Limbo with maxed Duration and Range to place Cataclysm everywhere so everyone is forced to use the new Melee. We'll see how long it lasts.

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Okay, this is a 'first reaction' post. I'm literally writing it as I read. Edits will be kept minimal.
Might revisit the thread tomorrow/sunday if I've thought of anything different or else.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We do not think Melee is at its best when you are facing a wall and spinning into it over and over again.

Wow, I literally haven't seen anyone do this in over 22 months.

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

our data shows this method in particular is often abused by automation,

... Ah.
Well, I appreciate your at least saying this outright, even if you're de-emphasizing it.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls

Yeah, alri-

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

or objects.

oooh S#&$.
Um.
Remember Viver? Remember the LoS restrictions on abilities? Remember those restrictions breaking those abilities in a large portion of your tiles (due to design decisions, read: lots of cover, few long, clear sight-lines)?
Or, more recently - Remember melee weapons inside a Arctic Eximus globe or Null bubble hitting the bubble meaning it doesn't harm the one projecting it? Which, incidentally, is still the case?

Weapon swings in Warframe are not a precision tool at the best of times.
I can only imagine the heckstorm that'll happen when object collision breaks any melee with more range than a dagger.
 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back)

I hope you don't mind that I argue that assertion.
* 100^% block, which requires that your melee be wielded, both putting you at a range disadvantage against anyone with a gun or aura, and subjecting you to the effing interminable weapon swap animations if you need a ranged option at any point.
If you don't have a melee wielded, blocking, channeling and stances effectively don't exist. But let's put that aside for a second.

* 100% block, with energy cost scaling to damage.
-> Energy spent blocking is energy not spent on the -much more effective- frame abilities.
* 100% block, in a frontal cone, which is useless in any mission with continuous perimeter spawns. So pretty much anything that isn't Exterminate.
^ 100% block, in a horde mode game. If you're blocking, you're not attacking.

Honestly, the one good thing about Blocking was that it didn't restrict your mobility.

Oh, and damage reflection falls off by level 30, and that's before considering the opportunity cost of not just using that energy for your actual abilities.

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'.

Well yeah, it's pretty but it's got very little to recommend it as an actual gameplay mechanic, as per above.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.
  • We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.

Alright, will bide.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily.

Okay.

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

Again:
1) Warframe's a scaling horde mode game.
2) There's no encounter design, it's all handled via weighted and capped RNG spawns.

The only time 'burning your cooldowns' is worth using is against a VIP, or a closed/non-scaling mission.
This means exterminates, boss missions (ignoring health gates), and assassins.

Unless building a counter-stack is trivial, it's not worth consuming at any other time. Gib a heavy/eximus now, the next spawns in 20-30 sec, assuming you don't have multiple onscreen to begin with.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.

Look, from experience and observation, for people who aren't melee fanatics, this is how the melee-progression works:
- 'Braton kills bishes'.
- 'Or not. Panic-spam E and hope your targets die before you do.'
- 'Wow, that air slam does some good CC.'
- *discovers ground finishers*
- ...
- eventually gets a 2nd elemental damage mod, a Serration, and mostly stops using melee except as an ocassional panic CC airslam.
- Sooner or later, the damage falls off, and the player returns to melee.
- Player learns about Damage 2.0 and armor, farms Fleeting Expertise, and effectively never uses melee again.
- {Optional) Gets Maiming Strike/slide-crit riven. Proceeds to spin-to-win forever.

Heavy attacks suffer from animation lag - any ranged target's gonna retreat faster than your anim unleashes the attack, (and any heavy has probably already killed you with their burst DPS/AOE DoT, and any assassin or boss's too dangerous to play sitting duck with) and a poor Damage <-> Time tradeoff - they're simply not effective to use even when they do connect.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!

'Cool factor', sure.
But any actual point in playing like this?

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Dodge canceling any melee attack!

[size=14]![/size]
Holy crap, this is HUGE.

One of the myriad main issues plaguing melee is animation lock.
Wow. This could be huge.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.

Awesome.
Any chance this includes hitbox matching weapon size?

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

Stance combos are problematic, and have been since forever.

Pulling them off is an exercise in pedantic, mind-numbing button-press counting, timing is impacted by attack speed, which suffers from the fact that more attack speed is always beneficial (and that's before taking anim-lock into account), certain combos restrict your movement, and - oh yeah, most of them do cause anim-lock.
(And the reason I harp on anim lock: it makes you a literal sitting duck, open, vulnerable and rooted.)

I assume it'd be too much to hope that you're going to rework combos entirely, but I can't help but feel you'd be better served going the beat'em'up route:
Ditch the combo tree system.
Stances are now 'styles' (e.g. Sparring can get Capoera, Muy Thai, Karate), equipping one unlocking a set of command-moves from that combat style, giving the player a themed toolbox of moves from that style.
Each move is a standalone, self-contained, one-shot attack with different properties (damage vs. speed, yes/no distance closer, crit chance, procs, hitboxes, knockdown, conditional effects; and so on).
Sure, some moves will be easier to use, some more useful, but (at least theoretically) now you've removed anim-lock entirely, and the player has reason to do something beyond EEEEEE and is rewarded for it.

At least to start with, this oughtn't be too difficult to implement (I think), as you've got loads of individual attack animations to draw on.
The harder part'll probably be managing the inputs, because controllers.

But that's just my personal pipe-dream.

======================

On a semi-related note:

[size=12]Any chance that you'll revisit/remove crit?[/size]

Rewarding skill with damage is (supposed to be headshot/crit volume's job). Crit, as it stands, particularly on guns, where intentional headshots are possible, is purely a passive, opaque, non-interactive damage multiplier.

There could be some merit to in melee as a payoff for specific buildups, but in the 'combo tree' paradigm that's already handled by forced combo damage mults and/or procs.

Edited by Chroia
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1 hour ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Unless you're providing a substantial boost to base melee damage across the board, combo counter only applying to heavy attacks and also spending all your combo sounds like a terrible idea.

Very much this. The combo counter change sounds pretty obnoxious.

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Im not gonna play melee if i cant play with range and speed (and combo multiplier), as main melee this ruins the system, i must be able to choose if i want speed or not, and not being debuffed for my choosing, this is madness. What the hell are you thinking at guys? 

 

I hate Maiming Strike btw

 

Edited by XzWasPzX
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I really have some concerns about these changes but like some of this as well - I'm reluctantly hopeful

Concerns:

- With broken hitboxes abound and level geometry being somewhat buggy, the melee through wall thing has been a bit of a workaround for said unrelated issues. Is this going to be addressed in conjunction with the melee work?

- Concerned about the changes to combo multipliers.

- Channeling is something I personally used quite a bit. Not sure I enjoy these changes as it breaks the play style completely for me with frames like ATLAS. 

I have more concerns but these are the biggest....

Edited by nokturnihs

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how will the change to the combo system effect blood rush builds? will my beautiful red crit rapier build be dead D :

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Hi DE,

1) Please consider the overall logic and pressures that generate a set of meta's in the game.

Why people gravitate to efficient use of melee is due to the pressure of needing to clear enemies quickly.

Why do people need to clear enemies quickly - because the missions take a long time.

Why do the missions take a long time - because the rewards are at set periods of time and random - in some cases highly low chance for a particular peice of gear.

So if you rework and remove a grinding crutch that allows for higher capacity of grinding without addressing the drop/rewards, you will definately get some negative impact.
Bottomline - same as all exp farms you have to look at why people are using those methods to be efficient and also address that.
(Note to self... need to grind the crap out of Elite to try and get Lato and Braton before it gets even more grindy)

2) Please also consider the effect on rivens and the overall direction of the game that you designed around melee from 2.0 forwards. Entire financial and community structures have built up around the trade and rolling of specific stats and weapons to be efficient and grind better. Without addressing the potential impact of current riven and melee choices will lead to a significant challenge. There has been some talk of allowing fixing of certain riven options while rolling for the remainder ala The Division which may address this - but overall when you have sunk hundreds of hours of Kuva grinding into a riven that will be nerfed its going to be hard to take a look at the new melee options objectively in a positive light. Im not clear if you are looking to remove spin crit but effecting crit and the ways to quickly apply damage has a huge impact and specifically to things that cannot adjust - ie Rivens

3) Please also consider the logic of needing to apply damage to mobs quickly. Survivability of many frames with enemies at a higher level is a challenge. If you cant kill them quickly they will do damage and for many frames that will mean death... so unable to grind higher.... so unable to gather rewards with reasonable effort.

4) Please consider enemy armor scaling. Again the need for efficiency and the highest damage is always the most challenging against high levels of armor. Most frames do not have an armor strip - and unless you are expecting Corrosive Projection to be a 'must wear' addressing armor scaling for the designed and expected enemy levels should be reviewed.

Will be an interesting time in the game when the changes go through - see you then 🙂

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DE, Channeling wasn't used because it wasn't useful. And it wasn't useful because the channeling specific mods were all worse than the equivalent non-channeling mod, in a more narrow set of circumstances than the normal mod, with downsides. It's clear from this design we're intended to use them alongside their non-channeling counterparts, but no build has the space to spend on that, and of the few that might, have other, better options than something that isn't active 100% of the time. Further few weapons take advantage of the design space offered by the current channeling mods- a melee weapon with a 50% crit chance would actually use True Punishment, because that and True Steel means 100% crit chance. And maybe Killing Blow would see use if there were weapons with more than just a 1.5x channeling damage multiplier.

Just dumping the system without really investigating why it failed, is just going to have you make the same mistake over and over again, like you have with Archwing, and Pets, and Focus... twice. You aren't providing your players with any value to keep using the system or to want to see it expanded.

So, before you commit to removing channeling, try buffing the channeling mods. Double the bonuses, halve the penalties, and actually iterate on a design you put out.

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When reworking the stances please make them usable "on the move". Having to stop in your tracks for animations breaks the flow of combat.

Take polearms for example, the quick melee allows you to helicopter your way through a group of enemies at full speed yet the stances make you come to a dead stop.

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I've learned that apprehension about change is just a waste of time, none the less, I've got some reservations.

Real quick : for the past few weeks, melee has been my jam. Polearm zaws with extra range, very fun, woot. I've been having great fun and taking note of how awesome the melee in warframe has become (I guess I was like the only person who didn't see this coming?). With that in mind, here are my thoughts :

The problem I have with removing the punch through and potentially with the ambiguous changes to range mods is that the core of melee in warframe is very much clumsy, quick messy hit and run, which is impossible to finesse, which is why range and environmental penetration is nice.

The thing frustrating me is that I don't really see this rework adding anything good... I've read everything, maybe I just don't understand it? The fixation on stances and combos bothers me. The reason being that the clips shown above are horrible representations of how combat in warframe works. Combat in warframe is fast, I mean, really fast. I mean... I don't have time to do a combo, I barely have time to press the button once before I need to move on or risk being mowed down.

On a positive note, maybe along with combo changes this is the opportunity to chance the combo dissipation. Body count should no be a mod, it should just be the mechanic. According to me anyway.

Despite my best efforts at understanding, I feel like this is just an unnecessary and counterproductive effort to fix one single overpowered build... I'm looking forward to, hopefully, being proven wrong.

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There's so much damage scaling tied up in the combo counter and related mods that hearing that you want to overturn it completely makes me want to scream in terror.

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2 часа назад, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

 Finally.

2 часа назад, [DE]Rebecca сказал:
  • While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
  • Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.

 

   About Melee Parry..... It should never be RNG.... But always 100% chance is also bad.

Add a hidden "parry energy" bar.   This bar will decay while you block.   At 100- 90% of the bar parry chance is 100%.  At 90-70% Parry chance is 70%....and so on (this can be affected by weapon type).   When you stop blocking, "parry energy" refills quickly. 

That way, player will have to drop Block for a moment to regain ability to Parry.     Will encourage clever blocking usage.

   About normal blocking....please, no energy drain.   

Actually, i think it doesnt need any drain at all.  It already have a drawback : you cant attack while blocking. 

 

   About melee enemies 

You know....melee is not just fancy moves and nice combos.... It requires proper opponents.  A bunch of mindless puppets will not do.

Enemies must have attacks that can BREAK your blocking ( heavy attacks ).  We need something to dodge, right?  Being able to block everything is kinda...boring.

Make them more careful.  Teach them to circle and wait for openings....To block (breakable by our heavy attacks )

 

Oh and....dont miss opportunity to improve Shadow Stalker's  melee attacks and AI.   Would be so nice to have a nice melee battle with him.  

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Also I am sorry, but while the idea of 'building up your combo and then cashing it out for big damage!' is a nice idea on paper, and could work in a game like Nier:Automata or Bayonetta, Warframe moves WAY TOO FAST for that kind of system to be anything but clunky at best.

The same goes for Dodge Canceling. That's uhm. That's nice and all? But I can't think of one instance where it would have helped me. Anything that's close enough for me to actually worry about dodging should be dying. Anything strong enough to not die is going to wreck my sh*t if they even touch me.

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3 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

They never said it won't be effected by combo counter mods, just the multiplier to damage.

We are trying to get information on if Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, etc will still have an effect on the basic attack.

 

If they up the base damage of all melee by 5x at least, and Blood Rush and other mods still effect it, we won't see much of a change.

just kinda had a thought weeping and blood rush go off the combo counter so you could jsut ignore the heavy attack and get the rewards like normal from weeping and blood rush since all they care about is what your counter is at and what state its effecting and if you do the heavy its faster to get the counter up to get the bonus back

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Justo ahora, ShogunGunshow dijo:

There's so much damage scaling tied up in the combo counter and related mods that hearing that you want to overturn it completely makes me want to scream in terror.

Im angry because of this, deeply angry, this is not fair. 

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gonna quit this game based off neglecting veterans and stuff, oh and censorship

feel free to censor me ❤️

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