Nidus vs Oberon: Why Nidus Needs A Bit Of Change

[Max7238]

Let's start here:

 

Old contents:

Spoiler

Above, obviously, is Oberon's Renewal. Currently, a bubble that lasts a short while and casts a lingering effect on those who enter in time. The buff triggers a heal over time, and will gain extra benefits if combined with Hallowed Ground - the increase in armor of the listed value.
Below, then, is Nidus' Ravenous. Currently, a patch of ground that grants a heal over time to any standing in it. The patch also spawns NPC Maggots to seek enemies and detonate to help recover Nidus' stacks he's spent.

Simple enough. Both are useful abilities that fit the theme of each frame. No big deal, right?
But what about the major differences?
Oberon can cast his as a 25 energy ability that drains energy over time. His heal follows allies to an infinite range as long as he can sustain it. Without mods, that means 40HP/s and 200 armor.
Nidus casts his as a 3-stack ability with a set duration. To gain stacks, that means fifteen enemies must be hit by his 1st ability, Virulence. That ability, without mods, costs 40 energy, and restores energy based on the number of enemies hit at 25% of the cost (so, unmodded, 10 energy per enemy hit). His heal does not follow allies, and range mods do not affect the diameter of the patch Nidus casts.

What does this mean?
It means Nidus is not a healer for his party. He is healing himself - choosing a place as his battleground and gaining an advantage there.
But Oberon can do that with Hallowed Ground.
Nidus can link with an enemy to reduce the damage only he takes, transferring it to the enemy. Linking to an ally grants both power strength, instead.
Oberon canNOT buff his party's damage, but he CAN cut enemy armor by 30% (again, unmodded). With four casts at 100 energy, any enemy is completely stripped of armor and hit with a radiation debuff.
Nidus has 450 armor base, Oberon has 150. Oberon, with his own buff, pushes that to 350 (not counting his Prime variant).
Nidus has 450HP, Oberon has 375HP.

And now... We get into the mods and Prime.
Equip both with Rage, to regain energy when struck with attacks. Oberon Prime is now 25 armor down from Nidus, and both are healing over time. Nidus is gaining energy, but not stacks to cast his heal again. Oberon is healing constantly and fueling his own buff by taking damage.
By the time you get to, say, a 200% power strength build with both, increasing their armor by adding Steel Fiber, you have an Oberon who will not die until enemies surpass 80 damage per second on a moving target that can increase damage reduction by rolling and take cover.
Nidus, however, cannot leave his patch and does not gain the 400 extra armor, putting him ahead in only his HP pool. If we assume both are taking above 80 damage per second, Nidus dies long before Oberon Prime.

Yes, the effectiveness of both Warframes is determined by the user. I love both. But having brought both up to as much power as I could, as effective a build for my style as I could, I have found repeatedly that Nidus falls short. With Oberon, I am even praised occasionally by players who were saved by the heal or the bleedout slow. I can strip armor to help cut through tougher targets. I can proc radiation to confuse enemies - Nidus' Maggots panic them, but he can't control which enemy they target.

Both are fun, and very effective.
My point? My suggestion?
Simple.
Bump the heal value. ONLY the heal value.
Give Nidus' ULTIMATE ability the 40HP per second heal.
Renewal already has fantastic uses. The extra armor when paired with Hallowed Ground is a life-saver for the lightly armored caster frames I often find myself partied with in public matches. The heal is so powerful, it takes sorties to even begin to crack it, and even then, I WANT to take damage to fuel my buff and other abilities, too. In lower level content, it's all I can do just to keep the buff applied for the entire mission, let alone actually cast anything else - not that I need to. In high level play, it just makes my Oberon Prime my best frame, hands down. He can CC, strip armor, buff everyone, heal everyone, confuse enemies, deal damage based on enemy max HP...
Nidus... Is Nidus. He needs time to get going. If his allies repeatedly kill the enemies he pulls in with his Larva ability, he can have trouble getting off the ground. He can't have a heal that follows his allies around, and if he wants to get the full payout for his ultimate, he needs to stay in one place. He cannot buff himself or his allies at infinite range, and he is limited to choosing just one target for his Parasitic Link.
I'm not even asking for his Parasitic Link to be capable of attaching to more than one enemy or ally or both! Just... A better heal, maybe?

 

The point here was simply that Oberon has an extremely effective, infinite range heal, and Nidus has a much less effective, stationary one. When I play a frame aside from Frost, it's to have a different flavor of support. I play Nidus to fill that role in an interesting and engaging way, to buff allies with his link and keep up a healing patch they can return to, but he never feels as effective as Oberon OVERALL. With Nidus' need for murder to increase his effectiveness, and with a cascade of other frames better at murder than he is, it can be difficult to get him off the ground and into the swing of things as I try to use him.

It was just a simple discussion. Keep calm, people.

Thoughts?

Edited May 16, 2018 by Max7238
Clarification.

[NinjaZeku]

9 minutes ago, Max7238 said:

nerf to Oberon

Buffing Nidus to be better Squad support, sure, but ... nerfing Oberon? Say wha?

[GnarlsDarkley]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Max7238:

Oberon can cast his as a 25 energy ability that drains energy over time. His heal follows allies to an infinite range as long as he can sustain it. Without mods, that means 40HP/s and 200 armor.

I stopped reading here because you have a simple error in your logic. If any Squad member receives damage the energy costs of Oberon explode until it is fully healed, which is roughly 10 energy/second per target with 100% Duration and 175% Efficiency

Edited May 15, 2018 by GnarlsDarkley

[TastyTaro]

1 минуту назад, NinjaZeku сказал:

Say wha?

ikr? Oberon frame has almost no use outside PoE and even there his usability is questionable.

[(PSN)WeaverDuck]

Nidus should receive buff to his heal (range or short heal over time after leaving his...  grassy gore party). Oberon is perfect as he is, no changes needed.

[GPrime96]

Nidus can take much more of a beating than Oberon. When you have his stacks flowing, and he got his Parasitic Link and Ravenous, He become of the hardest frames in the game to kill. Oberon can give his Team and himself Armor, Healing, and immunity to status effects but Oberon's healing is not Trinity's level of healing. His healing is much slower. Nidus can buff his team while being Unkillable at the same time.

[VentiGlondi]

You're looking at a single ability instead of entire kit.

Context matters

[Mk.1]

Why would you want to Oberon to be nerfed..

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

23 minutes ago, Max7238 said:

*snip* And a slight nerf to Oberon at the same time?

Thoughts?

Yes. Gtfo of here with that nonsense.

You don't have to nerf one frame to justify your decision to play a different frame.

The frame you want to play doesn't have to be the best at everything!

Oberon is defined by his healing.

Nidus is defined by his amazing survivability + scaling dmg. He even has better CC.

Healing is just a bonus for Nidus. 

You want a buff for Nidus? (One of the highest tier frames in the game and possibly the best solo frame that doesn't have cloak...), fine.

 

...but don't throw poor Oberon under the bus, bro.

[LightningsVengance]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)INe Saninus said:

Yes. Gtfo of here with that nonsense.

You don't have to nerf one frame to justify your decision to play a different frame.

The frame you want to play doesn't have to be the best at everything!

Oberon is defined by his healing.

Nidus is defined by his amazing survivability + scaling dmg. He even has better CC.

Healing is just a bonus for Nidus. 

You want a buff for Nidus? (One of the highest tier frames in the game and possibly the best solo frame that doesn't have cloak...), fine.

 

...but don't throw poor Oberon under the bus, bro.

Amen!

[Darkvramp]

40 minutes ago, Max7238 said:

Above, obviously, is Oberon's Renewal. Currently, a bubble that lasts a short while and casts a lingering effect on those who enter in time.

no it is a wave, like a nova molecular prime wave, that has a set range, that leaves an INVISIBLE field for anyone to walk over and pick up the regen buff, as long as Renewal is active

[hellodownthere]

1 hour ago, Max7238 said:

What does this mean?
It means Nidus is not a healer for his party. He is healing himself

well duh.

1 hour ago, Max7238 said:

Nidus dies long before Oberon Prime

yeah no, his link makes him one of the toughest frames so no oberon will die long before nidus ever will.

1 hour ago, Max7238 said:

Nidus can link with an enemy to reduce the damage only he takes, transferring it to the enemy. Linking to an ally grants both power strength, instead.
Oberon canNOT buff his party's damage, but he CAN cut enemy armor by 30% (again, unmodded). With four casts at 100 energy, any enemy is completely stripped of armor and hit with a radiation debuff.
Nidus has 450 armor base, Oberon has 150. Oberon, with his own buff, pushes that to 350 (not counting his Prime variant).
Nidus has 450HP, Oberon has 375HP.

You're comparing apples to oranges, in this you're insinuating that Nidus is a semi-support frame like Oberon is this is just untrue. Nidus is just a tank, his 4 is so he can regain hp, think about it how many ways does nidus have to gain health from his abilities ? there aren't many. Inaros has 3 abilities that grant health back while nidus only has one, this is countered with his link being able to grant a lot of damage reduction and his 4 that gives those that stand on it up to 68 health per second.

1 hour ago, Max7238 said:

Flip the heal values. ONLY the heal values.
Give Nidus' ULTIMATE ability the 40HP per second heal and give Oberon the 20HP per second heal.

if that's how much your 4 heals whilst playing nidus then you aren't playing him with power strength mods my current nidus build gives my ~50 hps so...

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by hellodownthere

[Marthrym]

Maybe just put Ravenous' base healing on the same level as Renewal without nerfing Obi? Also if range mods could affect the size of the "patch" of infestation, it would be nice. At least positive range please? It's already forcing you to stay within the confines of the patch if you want to benefit from it after all, so it being affected negatively would effectively kill this ability entirely IMO. Or maybe don't touch anything. Also works for me, even though I wouldn't say no to a more potent/versatile Ravenous.^^

[NezuHimeSama]

Probably because Nidus is primarily a selfish frame by design and overall does not need any buffs to be good.

Not every ability needs to be as good as another ability when lined up. The overall frame just needs to be good as an overall frame.

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, Kel_Silonius said:

Oberon frame has almost no use outside PoE and even there his usability is questionable.

Is this a joke? If not I'm calling BS.

Oberon is one of the "go to" 'Frames for Eidelon hunts, due to his ability to keep the party AND any and all Lures healed, which is instrumental in ensuring a Capture, rather than a Kill. In addition, Hallowed Ground is effective at preventing and neutralizing any and all status effects that might be inflicted on the party.

If you're going to hate on a 'Frame, at least get your facts straight.

 

[Darkvramp]

19 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Is this a joke? If not I'm calling BS.

Oberon is one of the "go to" 'Frames for Eidelon hunts, due to his ability to keep the party AND any and all Lures healed, which is instrumental in ensuring a Capture, rather than a Kill. In addition, Hallowed Ground is effective at preventing and neutralizing any and all status effects that might be inflicted on the party.

If you're going to hate on a 'Frame, at least get your facts straight.

 

so he has one or 2 game situations/mode that he is used in, verses a nidus, yea an oberon is a weak sauce frame

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Nidus is a selfish frame.  His abilities benefit him over his allies for a reason.

He creates a patch not to heal his allies but to heal himself and get better at killing with maggot popping.

His larva doesn't exist to CC enemies for his team.  it's so Nidus can kill as much as possible to jack his stacks for survival.

Him linking to an ally is the onyl team orientated action that's not born of selfish nature.  and No nidus is going to link to an ally in any serious situation because linking to an enemy is much more beneficial for nidus.

Nidus out survives oberon from stacks alone.

[MickThejaguar]

.......What?

[NezuHimeSama]

3 hours ago, Darkvramp said:

so he has one or 2 game situations/mode that he is used in, verses a nidus, yea an oberon is a weak sauce frame

Works great for affinity farming, too, esp with a speed nova. Also has solid 4frame damage potential, and renewal and especially phoenix renewal are solid. The armor buff is handy, too, and smite is a decent enough 1 for taking the heat off, with it's knockdown and puncture procs.

Oberon is actually a pretty solid all 'round frame with a focus on healing and damage reduction. 

 

On the other hand, Nidus is a survival frame with high damage scaling and low team support.

[TastyTaro]

3 часа назад, MirageKnight сказал:

Is this a joke?

no it's not. my man i killed and captured 1002 Eidolons in total, you can just check my stats to see and here is the deal. Harrow and Oberon both have a rather questionable value when it comes to hunts. Trinity is far more efficient than both of these frames combined. Because Harrow can only do damage and proc prevention. Oberon can only prevent status proc from wave and status electricity procs on Hydralyst. Both of which is rather meh and Trinity just can throw a single blessing to solve all possible problems. The best result i had is 10 captures and 1 kill of Eidolons during a single night was in a party of Rhino, x2 Volts and Trinity and we killed last Eidolon only because lures vanished at dawn.

I would say that Oberon needs a lot of love and rework because i honestly fail to see any use for this frame.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

IT feels like a joke, it reads like a joke, it tries to compare 2 different things as a joke
i guess it can only be a joke 

I mean Nidus x Oberon?  why not put also Rhino and Mirage or Trinity ?  which still would feel like a joke because they are different play styles 

also

26 minutes ago, Kel_Silonius said:

I would say that Oberon needs a lot of love and rework because i honestly fail to see any use for this frame.

Really ? thats the frame that i use for 99% of things, only using ash for spy missions, because loki is too easy and ash looks cooler

Oberon became really great after his last rework

Edited May 16, 2018 by -.SP.-G43riel

[(PSN)Zelgorath]

This post started as a comparison between Nidus and Oberon and specifically their ability to heal, and has degenerated into people saying Oberon either does or does not need a rework. Let's stay on topic.

To be frank, I have and use a Nidus, and I primarily main my Oberon Prime. In terms of survivability, I find that Nidus needs to not have a party of people trying to poach kills (Ember, Banshee, Volt, Saryn, et. al) with room clearing abilities to build up enough stacks to reliably cast Ravenous. As for Oberon, between Hunter's Adrenaline/Rage, Steel Fiber, Holy Ground, Phoenix Renewal, and Arcane Guardian, I am damn near invincible, and if I actually die, Phoenix Renewal revives me, and I probably have full energy.

My point is, that I properly modded my Oberon for high damage reduction with energy and health regen feeding each other. Heck, I used to rock Equilibrium. My build is way more efficient.

Nidus is an Infested Juggernaut, meant to plow through foes and become more powerful in doing so, like a perpetual engine. Oberon is based on the idea of a Paladin. Decent, but not amazing heals. The ability to crowd control foes. The ability to protect allies. He does all of these and does them well.

My point is that comparing them is simply wrong. Different archetypes, different play styles.

[Max7238]

4 hours ago, Darkvramp said:

so he has one or 2 game situations/mode that he is used in, verses a nidus, yea an oberon is a weak sauce frame

 

26 minutes ago, Kel_Silonius said:

no it's not. my man i killed and captured 1002 Eidolons in total, you can just check my stats to see and here is the deal. Harrow and Oberon both have a rather questionable value when it comes to hunts. Trinity is far more efficient than both of these frames combined. Because Harrow can only do damage and proc prevention. Oberon can only prevent status proc from wave and status electricity procs on Hydralyst. Both of which is rather meh and Trinity just can throw a single blessing to solve all possible problems. The best result i had is 10 captures and 1 kill of Eidolons during a single night was in a party of Rhino, x2 Volts and Trinity and we killed last Eidolon only because lures vanished at dawn.

I would say that Oberon needs a lot of love and rework because i honestly fail to see any use for this frame.

You two... Clearly either can't read, or don't know how to play Oberon OR Harrow, or you've only ever seen people who don't know how to play those frames.
OBERON is a weak frame? Oberon. The guy who can dunk every enemy in a radius and strip 60% armor, prevent any and all status effects, heal for 80HP per second, deal damage based on enemy max HP, and has infinite range buffs... Is a weak sauce frame? Really? Seriously? That's supposed to be a serious statement? I don't believe you. You HAVE to be trolling. The ideal setup for Eidolons is Trinity, Harrow, Volt, Oberon. Trinity powers the party with EV, Harrow INCREASES CRIT CHANCE and grants periods of invincibility through the more annoying Eidolon attacks, Volt's barrier increases crit DAMAGE and he's a good frame to pulse and crack the base HP of the adds, and Oberon keeps the lures up and keeps people from bleeding out if they go down.
OUTSIDE that, in, say, long survival runs, Oberon is STILL one of the best frames to support a party, because he can strip armor and CC an entire room. Trinity has to rely on her trick of 1 > 2 (if that even still works), to achieve the same effect on a SINGLE target.

I would get it if you said NIDUS wasn't so great. He's not. I know. I just like to play the frame. But OBERON? You've gotta be trolling.

[hellodownthere]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Zelgorath said:

This post started as a comparison between Nidus and Oberon and specifically their ability to heal, and has degenerated into people saying Oberon either does or does not need a rework. Let's stay on topic.

To be frank, I have and use a Nidus, and I primarily main my Oberon Prime. In terms of survivability, I find that Nidus needs to not have a party of people trying to poach kills (Ember, Banshee, Volt, Saryn, et. al) with room clearing abilities to build up enough stacks to reliably cast Ravenous. As for Oberon, between Hunter's Adrenaline/Rage, Steel Fiber, Holy Ground, Phoenix Renewal, and Arcane Guardian, I am damn near invincible, and if I actually die, Phoenix Renewal revives me, and I probably have full energy.

My point is, that I properly modded my Oberon for high damage reduction with energy and health regen feeding each other. Heck, I used to rock Equilibrium. My build is way more efficient.

Nidus is an Infested Juggernaut, meant to plow through foes and become more powerful in doing so, like a perpetual engine. Oberon is based on the idea of a Paladin. Decent, but not amazing heals. The ability to crowd control foes. The ability to protect allies. He does all of these and does them well.

My point is that comparing them is simply wrong. Different archetypes, different play styles.

yes i completely agree it's like what i said in my reply to OP you're comparing apples to oranges 

[Max7238]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Zelgorath said:

This post started as a comparison between Nidus and Oberon and specifically their ability to heal, and has degenerated into people saying Oberon either does or does not need a rework. Let's stay on topic.

To be frank, I have and use a Nidus, and I primarily main my Oberon Prime. In terms of survivability, I find that Nidus needs to not have a party of people trying to poach kills (Ember, Banshee, Volt, Saryn, et. al) with room clearing abilities to build up enough stacks to reliably cast Ravenous. As for Oberon, between Hunter's Adrenaline/Rage, Steel Fiber, Holy Ground, Phoenix Renewal, and Arcane Guardian, I am damn near invincible, and if I actually die, Phoenix Renewal revives me, and I probably have full energy.

My point is, that I properly modded my Oberon for high damage reduction with energy and health regen feeding each other. Heck, I used to rock Equilibrium. My build is way more efficient.

Nidus is an Infested Juggernaut, meant to plow through foes and become more powerful in doing so, like a perpetual engine. Oberon is based on the idea of a Paladin. Decent, but not amazing heals. The ability to crowd control foes. The ability to protect allies. He does all of these and does them well.

My point is that comparing them is simply wrong. Different archetypes, different play styles.

You and others have made this point. You are correct.
Though poorly communicated, my point was that Nidus' heal isn't effective enough for OTHERS for me to ever want to use it *like that. I have a Hema and *Hirudo. I can lifesteal to keep myself alive 90% of the time I'm actually in danger, and the other 10%, I can pop the ult. I just can't help anyone else. It's why I never play Rhino. They're selfish tanks with a damage buff and CC. Not really my thing... I say as a Frost Prime main of four years...

Edited May 16, 2018 by Max7238