[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD

[Windy_Wind]

I like this new saryn rework, it puts her at a very nice spot...too nice actually. My only complain is that Miasma is still...meh, yes it's still quite useful with its viral proc but for 100 energy..it's not worth it.

[Braneman]

I like this Saryn Rework after playing around with it, but i feel like it's too heavily anti synergized against companions, sentinels and other players. In a total vacuum alone and without decent damage sentinels or other players the spores spread pretty well, when you have a sentinel with say Vuklok that does enough damage to kill most Sortie enemies, or a Kubrow/Kavat, or another player anywhere on the map you're running into the Nidus problem where you have to either not bring a companion that does any damage or tell players to not use AOE weapons(good luck when even things like the convectrix are apparently AOE weapons, seems like there is no consistency to that at all, so even if other players want to help you they might not know what to actually bring) or to not kill things so your spores can do their work. There needs to be something so that spores can spread if your allies just kill an enemy, otherwise Saryn is even more confusing than before but for everybody else because working with her isn't consistent at all and you have to go build and look up a spreadsheet to see if your gun is on the naughty list for spreading spores.

I would like the ability to use my 2 when I've been knocked down even if I still have to get up so I can shed all those nasty corpus LN2 canisters they keep around.

I feel like her 3 is in an AMAZING position right now and the duration increase is wonderful, thank you so much for that.

And her four remains a good quick stun if you need to revive somebody.

[Chroia]

Right, so.  

In order, I've played solo through:
1 ESO, 1 SO, 2 SO starting unranked, 1 ESO, 1 Kuva Surv, 1 MD Kuva Flood. On the basis of the spawns in the last 2, I feel I can accurately extrapolate the experience in an Int, Ext, Spy, Cap or PoE bounties.
This is my build and I'm primarily using a Zakti built for rad status.

Saryn's very good in SO/ESO due to how enemies spawn everywhere, so spores keep spreading rather than burning out.
Molt's nice but not huge without the augment.
Miasma's pretty pointless. Either the area's small enough that Spores'll do the work, or too big for Miasma to hit much.

Now for the bad.
The change to Spores makes it effectively useless in anything that isn't SO.
The combination of
* removing the Molt <-> Spores interaction,
* the 'recast = instant sterilization' and
* staggered and/or spread out spawns
means that Spores is at most affecting a fraction of the extant enemies at a time, and is constantly either burning itself out, or you're constantly extinguishing the (however ramped up) current infection so you can apply Spores elsewhere for the armor stripping - rendering Spores' damage effectively moot, despite theoretically huge possible numbers.

I mean, I literally ended up with more weapon kills while trying to cultivate and husband my infection than actual Spores kills in the Kuva Surv. Don't even get me started on the MD.

 

Toxic Lash is in an interesting spot.
The fact that it pops spores is quite helpful.
The added straight damage, however, puts it in conflict with Spores.
If you don't need the extra damage from TL to kill enemies, you don't need Spores.
If you do need to extra damage, you'd be better off letting Spores build up, doing both more armor stripping (improving your weapon damage) and more Spores damage (which TL would then let you spread).

Translating the previous iteration to the current one, the Toxin proc inheritance let you 'jump start' Spores' damage.
Either Spores needs to be easier to spread, or require less ramp-up.
This could be achieved by (for instance) removing TL's +%Toxin damage and instead making it increment the Infection damage. The issue with that being that it'd now be entirely dependent on Spores to have any effect. Whether or not you see that as a problem (considering Nidus' kit), idk.

 

tl;dr -
Spores is excellent in SO modes, made useless elsewhere by its restricted delivery mechanic and constant burnouts.
Molt is functional. The speed boost's nice but unimportant.
Toxic Lash's Spore-popping's great in SO. Its +Toxin damage is of much greater effect anywhere else.
Miasma I honestly haven't had much use for.

Will need to try running Saryn on a less well equipped account, I guess.

[jmthebigman]

18 hours ago, Koed said:

It got crit buffed recently so it's qutie awesome. I would imagine u can't do a charge build with that riven though? The spread must be crazy with that many rockets?

its hilarious for area nuking from above.

[GhostLacuna]

4 hours ago, catastrophy said:

How about balancing it around mods that can be collected by regular play?

You do know that corrupted mods is one of the easiest mods around to get right? its not hard even for those new to the game to do a full squad with 4 different keys a couple of times and then they will have nearly all corrupted mods that exists. 

Of the mods listed in that build only Primed Con could be said to be harder to get for new players. 

[catastrophy]

22 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

You do know that corrupted mods is one of the easiest mods around to get right? its not hard even for those new to the game to do a full squad with 4 different keys a couple of times and then they will have nearly all corrupted mods that exists. 

Of the mods listed in that build only Primed Con could be said to be harder to get for new players. 

Can only speak from my experience and that is been a slog and mostly mods for weapons, not frames.

[Xyhon]

Spores get stuck on cast too often. Also, propagation is too slow - one spore per enemy is way too low. Propagation range is mediocre - could use a bump.

[Ameijin-Grey]

If you do anything at all to Saryn, please allow the casting of Spores on her Molt again. 

[mawdeeps]

spores dont spread as well at lower levels, viral is better than corrosive again at star chart level, shes more energy hungry not less (see first point), corrosive

projection exists.

Edited May 18, 2018 by mawdeeps

[Evanescent]

3 hours ago, PetTinks said:

I like that this is well thought out, but I have some questions.

Thank you! I'll try my best. Again, I'm no pro Saryn and i didn't enjoy her and play her much before the change so that may color my replies.

3 hours ago, PetTinks said:

1. Spore capping itself - At lower levels the ability capping itself could be a turn off for newer players no? why play something that is only fun in a part of the game they have yet to reach?

I think newer players won't have the mods needed to bring spores to the potency more progressed players have out of the get go. As such the weaker spores should still give the satisfaction of spreading and affecting wide groups before ramping up enough to kill them. 

Note that it's possible it's potent enough without any/sup-par power strength mods. It is not possible for me to test and prove or disprove at the moment so someone will have to do it fo rme. In that case, we have a problem that Nidus very much shares. Players pushing higher levels will get infinitely more enjoyment out of them.

3 hours ago, PetTinks said:

2. Dependency on Toxin lash - Does it not feel forced into being almost needed to play Saryn effectively? Does it not feel more like splitting spore out across two abilities since one without the other is almost pointless?

I wouldn't quite say it's a dependency. Toxic lash is such a good buff and has such generous duration for its energy cost that you would want it up at all times anyway. Especially if you're going melee! In that case, because you naturally keep it up it's intuitive that you can use it to shepherd your spores and spread them. If I'm not very wrong, it is intended for enemies killed to also spread spores. So it's more for if you want more control and take an active part in it. While I have not let spores do all the work, I've noticed after spreading the initial spores they seem to be propagating quite well on their own (for example, in the derelict tile in onslaught I'd see spores on the upper floors spreading away though I had never attacked enemies on them, only on the lower floors) once they begin ramping up to hurt enemies. It helps that allies will likely be killing and popping spores too I think.

I believe because of her shift toward scaling, it is intended for you to face high level enemies and as such be constantly using the damage buff because you need to whittle down inflating ehp. From that point of view it is indeed natural to link spores and toxic lash. 

It's more correct to think of it like this: Spore and Toxic Lash together act like how Virulence acts for Nidus: a keystone for the entire kit's functionality.

3 hours ago, PetTinks said:

3. Encouraging active play - Could this not have been achieved through smaller tweaks, as it is just DE forcing people to actually play the game how it was intended, rather than finding loopholes?

I don't have enough experience with her previous kit to have a definitive answer, but I can make an educated guess: I don't think so. Her kit previously was simply too passive, disparate and convoluted. To touch on an earlier point, spores and molt acting as a turret seems more of a forced synergy to me!

But if you think about it they haven't really taken a sledgehammer to her. They have done simple alterations to existing abilities and moved some elemental properties around.

Do I think that the existing playstyle is vastly different to the previous one? Mostly yes.

Is it better? I don't know, because I have so little knowledge of what came before. But in terms of making her more mobile I think the rework succeeds.

3 hours ago, PetTinks said:

4. Scaling - Is this beneficial, or equally broken as standing still all mission, as another player demonstrated quite snarkily that an unmodded saryn can quite easily kill level 100 heavy gunners?

I'm interested in what you think about this.

That's a difficult question. Is it broken? I don't think scaling is broken or a bad thing. Damage powers staying relevant is a good thing and something I want to see in every kit.

I think what you mean is this: is the current build as ripe for "unhealthy gameplay"? Possibly. We need more time to see if such strategies will emerge. As of this moment Miasma smashing in lower levels is possible, while spores present healthy dps in higher levels with miasma acting as a very nice debuff. As far as sheer game-feel goes, the current kit feels like it nudges you to be more hands on than staying in one spot and smashing the same buttons. Personally I was having great fun bullet jumping around and spreading my spores along with an atomos.

As far as simulacrum testing goes, I tend to take them with a grain of salt. It is quite different as to how things actually play out in different tileset volumes, mob densities, mob combinations, etc. A prime example is the Zephyr Funnel Clouds situation. 

Could you forward the video to me kindly though? It could possibly still have some impact on my opinion.

 

I hope that answered your questions!

[Evanescent]

6 hours ago, Razgriz8492nd said:

I had all my spores die but the UI did not go away. Could not recast after that.

Had the same bug earilier today. Was also the client.

[nokturnihs]

Regarding Spores and how they spread:

Why, in a TEAM  PVE horde shooter would you create a mechanic around a warframe that PUNISHES you for playing in a group? I realize a lot of you guys have been "testing" in solo, but to those who haven't try testing in a group. I did my testing in various places but in elite onslaught it became clear that this new mechanic discourages you to group play with others. Spreading your spores to have all the buildup immediately zeroed because a volt discharges and kills your infected or an equinox uses their 4? No thanks. Terrible design decision in my mind.

Lash is nicely updated, fine with molt, miasma is still meh. But spores only spreading with your own kills makes me not want to play in groups with her. When you don't play in groups with her there's no point in playing her and no point in acquiring her (except for MR). 

 

[PookieNumnums]

casting spore tends to break

 

not sure if pox or something else. someone suggested it was target enemy dying during casting animation.. not sure what it was but yeah it breaks and cannot be recast  even after all enemies are wiped and a new wave begins

spreading spore seems to be los based. old spread was better. this amazing damage potential that she has doesnt manifest unless there is unobstructed views of enemies within range. it should just spread. los, or whatever it is, is killing the usefulness. 

toxic lash should last longer, that or swap her 2 and 3 around so it costs less. 

 

and lastly, toxin viral or corrosive procs on saryn should actually give her a small buff. thatd be neat. 

 

thanks

[Cibyllae]

Posting this here

6 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

 I did not want these to get lost in the megathread, that is the reason for making my own topic. I will also post the other two spread tests I made here.

 

Saryn_Spore_Half_Range_On_Death_Sim_Test

Range: 145%

 

Saryn_Spore_Spread_On_Teammate_Kill_Sim_Test

Range:280%

 

Saryn LoS Tests

  10 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

Saryn_Spore_LoS_Test_Solo_Hydron_Sedna_Wave_2

Links are working now

 

 

Proof Spore Spread is not affected by LoS

 

EDIT: This is the Sim. test I ran with equatable results. I apologize for the quality.

 

11 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

Here is a video in Sim of Spore interacting between two enemies without LoS. I'm working on another one out of Sim.

 

Saryn_Spore_LoS_Test

EDIT: I'll try and fix the quality on the next one

tl;dr

Spores spread on death from Saryn and Teammates

Spore range is halved when enemies die, this means your spread radius is half of what it is when calculating the range at which your spores will propagate when spores spread from enemies dying and not the actual popping of spores.

Spore Spread is not affected by LoS

 

 

[PookieNumnums]

2 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

Posting this here

 

 

ah so the illusion of LoS affecting spore is simply poor range

good to know thanks for working that out

[[DE]Danielle]

20 hours ago, Koed said:

Ferrox doesn't do anything when thrown (when it is impaled in the ground and does ticks of damage) - doesn't spread spores nor is it affected by Toxic Lash. Intended?

Just tested this myself! When you use Ferrox's alt fire and toss it into a surface, there is a 5 second delay before it deals a dose of Electricity damage (this is intended for the Ferrox as it deals Electricity damage every 5 seconds). So as long as you have Toxic Lash on during the time it takes for enemies to be pull in + those 5 seconds between when damage is dealt, Spores will spread!

However, if you test this yourself and still come across some issues that may be bug related, let me know the details so I can track it down :) 

19 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

I think its this bug again? I was locked out of casting spores.
[removed image for scrolling ease]

19 hours ago, zenabiz said:

still getting a bug where I cant detonate or recast spores. Counter sticks at 12, icon flashing. Pressing 1 does nothing. everything is dead. 

We're looking into fixing this (again!). Thanks for reporting !

 

 

[Oblitum]

any chance you guys could undo the awful line of sight need for spores, the ability can't spread nearly at all without recast and needing line of sight, her dot feels pathetic on anything but the most open maps.

[AlanW001]

Spores don.t work well for me at all. I cannot get them to spread much if any. I have the following issues.

1. Targeting enemies to attach spores is tedious and hard to make happen. The target is had to target since there is no zoom  and without zoom it is hard to make it work unless you try several times.

2. The spores ALL are destroyed once you hit "one" again, This should spread spores but it does not seem to happen. I hardly get any indication that anything is attaching to any other enemy. Might be the really short range of spread in an real mission. It did not seem to work very fast even in a closely packed demo shown by DE

3,  I Do far better using corrosive projection then what I get using spores now, no matter what I do. 

4.  Using spores only gets me killed since now you are standing still taking damage while you try to make spores attach to enemies and spread. It seems as if the spores do not spread and very poorly until you kill the enemy or press 1 again. They are simply ineffective in real missions. Even when I get a single enemy with a spore and shoot him in a group of close enemies there is little or no spread. I barely get anything more than five infected on my HUD

Unless I figure this out. Saryn is useless and ineffective now and is only mastery rank fodder.  I can survive and kill better with weapons in any other frame. I can see no way that this frame can survive any 50+ enemy level mission now. 

RIP Saryn Prime

[Chronometria]

After testing, I was left wondering why I wasn't just using nova instead. The spores take a lot of work to spread and there are many better alternatives, including simply shooting enemies instead or using any of the other AOE frames. The secondary option to explode the spores just gets in the way.

 

I`d make it so that the secondary resets the counter but forces a spread to nearby foes, that way you can balance between spread and damage, which would promote an engaging and productive playstyle.

[Mover-NeRo]

Not sute it is here but gas clouds from Pox or Mutalyst Cernos dont pop spores unless Toxi lash is used.

[dan.io.wal]

46 minutes ago, AlanW001 said:

Spores don.t work well for me at all. I cannot get them to spread much if any. I have the following issues.

1. Targeting enemies to attach spores is tedious and hard to make happen. The target is had to target since there is no zoom  and without zoom it is hard to make it work unless you try several times.

2. The spores ALL are destroyed once you hit "one" again, This should spread spores but it does not seem to happen. I hardly get any indication that anything is attaching to any other enemy. Might be the really short range of spread in an real mission. It did not seem to work very fast even in a closely packed demo shown by DE

3,  I Do far better using corrosive projection then what I get using spores now, no matter what I do. 

4.  Using spores only gets me killed since now you are standing still taking damage while you try to make spores attach to enemies and spread. It seems as if the spores do not spread and very poorly until you kill the enemy or press 1 again. They are simply ineffective in real missions. Even when I get a single enemy with a spore and shoot him in a group of close enemies there is little or no spread. I barely get anything more than five infected on my HUD

Unless I figure this out. Saryn is useless and ineffective now and is only mastery rank fodder.  I can survive and kill better with weapons in any other frame. I can see no way that this frame can survive any 50+ enemy level mission now. 

RIP Saryn Prime

RIP 

[Cibyllae]

48 minutes ago, Oblitum said:

any chance you guys could undo the awful line of sight need for spores, the ability can't spread nearly at all without recast and needing line of sight, her dot feels pathetic on anything but the most open maps.

There are videos in this topic showing spores spreading without LoS

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

@[DE]Danielle any chances of having that condition where enemies dieing  spread the spores for half of their range ?

it should be :

Enemies Die ( period, no matter what killed them or who ) = spores spreads for their fulliest range. 

Enemies live and you pop spores ( or your team mates ) = same

and it's one less issue on the table

 

or

just simply revert the spores back to how they worked ( viral status, duration, recastable, toxin dots carriage etc ) just WITHOUT the spores on Molt synergy, so you get rid of that detrimental issue with saryn turrets, molt changes are good, toxic lash too, Miasma will work like Hallowed reckoning removing armor % on each tick ( with enough strenght 2 casts from oberon does the job at removing armor permanently ).

faster revisit and painless.

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by arm4geddon-117

[VoidFlux]

Someone that is having problems with Spore spread, try this, turn down graphics to low (keep resolution) and see if that helps. i was noticing that the issue seemed to be that the spores are populating as expected, but i would have to wait up to 10 seconds for the mob to show signs of it, or mob would randomly die with out spore on them.  turned graphics to Low seemed to fix this. it might just be weird side effect or something so want some one else to test it to see if they see the  same results. 

[Cibyllae]

20 minutes ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

Enemies Die ( period, no matter what killed them or who ) = spores spreads for their fulliest range. 

This has always been how spores worked, their range was always halved when spread by the death of the enemy and not the actual popping of spores.