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[DE]Danielle

[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD

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I wish the initial cast had a small aoe. It would help get the power started and mitigate some of getting you eye wiped on casting.

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Recent fix to Saryn in Hotfix 22.20.3!

  • Fixed a script error when casting Saryn’s Spores on a ragdoll. This resulted in the Spores to not show up (but still tick damage).
     

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53 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Recent fix to Saryn in Hotfix 22.20.3!

  • Fixed a script error when casting Saryn’s Spores on a ragdoll. This resulted in the Spores to not show up (but still tick damage).
     

Can we have the spores spread to their FULL range Always, either with the target dieing for whatever reason or with the target being alive and getting spores popped by the caster or anyone else ? this is what created this whole LOS confusion , an issue that before was irrelevant or un noticed because we could cast spores anytime we wanted on multiple groups far apart and let the spread ramp up even at low range..

I swear i had countless of long endurance runs as well as the quickest captures where at 145 range i had the biggest map perma spored just cus i could target multiple enemies in different groups as much as i wanted, an option that's gone away now.

By not being able to recast them because we detonate them this whole bag of complaints went live.

Nobody ever complained about the spread of the spores Prior to this, there were many complaints about saryn ( being too squishy, lacking cc, miasma being reduntant, Molt being Meh and insta Gibbed at sortie 1 lvl etc etc, but i have never read a single post about the way spores were spreading , because we could recast them obviously )

Now there are complaints about the spread , clearly something isn't right

We can't recast them, give us a trade off to have a way to keep them up as reliably as we could and without necessarily having to go for a mandatory high range build or remove the scaling dmg and just keep the corrosive status ticks + toxin dots being carried over, give it a duration and let us recast them as much as we want till we have energy or hard cap the recast times to a max set number before they detonate. problem solved

 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Danielle said:

We're looking into fixing this (again!). Thanks for reporting !

 

 

Just took saryn into an infested defence mission straight after latest hotfix, first runner I saw - 2 spores on, shot it dead. Immediately locked out from recasting. Stuck back on 12 on the UI. Only dying resets this problem. 

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Having played with this a lot more, I really think Spores need to spread even if the target dies by sources other than the Saryn.  I shouldn't have to fight my allies and sentinel/pet for kills to ensure my stuff keeps spreading.  I keep having to recast Spores often and it's awkward.

I also hate every situation in which I manually detonate Spores, which is almost always either accidentally or because I *have* to if I want to recast again, because my Spores have gotten off to somewhere I can't easily spread them again from.  I would prefer just to be able to cast them again.  My desire to keep those Spores going is far higher - even to the point where I would kind of prefer they stop ramping up, because that's what I used to do with the old Spores - keep them constantly cycling around and doing just enough damage with all the Toxin I'm introducing to be consistently killing things without overkilling everything and destroying my spore culture entirely.

I basically still prefer the old model of Viral and spreading Toxin procs instead of this slow ramp up from worthless to uncontrollable damage, after all is said and done.  I really hope this continues to get improved, because as it is now I would rather just go back to the old system.

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The only thing i can think of suggesting, is maybe lower the damage of spores a little (maybe like... 25% less damage?) and double the range that the spores can spread to. Make infection a more efficient/faster process. 

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I haven't read the 18 pages so I'm sorry if this repeats feedback. I was (am) a huge Saryn fan and she's my second most played Warframe. Prior to the most recent changes I'd usually play her in a run-and-gun style relying on my weapon (Usually Ignis Wraith) to pop and spread spores. The most recent changes seem to try to shift her to mostly this style, buffing your weapon with Toxic Lash and running around popping and spreading spores. There's a few issues:

  • Previously, if I had moved too far from the enemies I had spored I could just recast spore, now that's not possible. In ESO I'd often have a multi-thousand tick going and only one enemy (often a beefier one, like Nox) with spores which I'd then have to hunt down to spread. Recasting spores in the scenario will now reset my stacks
  • While I was never a fan of just repeatedly casting spores on your Molt the advantage was that I could put spores on my Molt just once, shoot them off the Molt and they would spread to all of the surrounding enemies. This was particularly useful in pugs because often times the enemy I'd be trying to spore would be killed by another team member and with Molt it ensured my target wouldn't die before I could burst the spores
  • The spore ticks resetting just feels really bad, I like how it ramps up and can deal lots of damage but I wish there was a grace period before the ticks reset if it happens to drop off of all the enemies.
  • Spores use to spread toxic status if the enemy was effected by toxic when the spores on them were popped and this is no longer the case. It would be nice if either this was retained or reintroduced with viral procs to spread both viral and corrosive. TBH this might not be whole necessary but in her previous iteration it helped with damage and I was disappointed that my weapons now don't synergize as well with my abilities as they use to.
  • Maybe instead of granting a grace period on the ticks make it scale with enemy health? As in the spore ticks grow as a percentage of the health of the enemy in damage instead of a static amount. It could scale with the average enemy health of all of those affected by spores so that after a set amount of time it'd kill enemies in ~2 seconds or whatever is reasonable etc.

Overall I think the changes were moving her in the right direction but as it stands now shes a little more clunkier than she use to be.

 

 

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Ok lets put some problems and things that we need here:

* Sometimes saryn spores broke, and the counter freeze, making all the habilities stop to work, and sometimes, only the spores until the end of the gameplay.

* Why not make the Spores an AURA that infect enemies, instead of cast them like crazy, will make the gameplay more fluid and make sense with saryn, will be like an gas that she emits. Other good idea is when enemies are dead by the spores spawn fungus on the ground that infect other enemies passing for the same place. 

* Why not put the same tweak of CHROMA on OCTAVIA? Rebuff and maintain the buffs. Will be amazing if that happens, jump, crouch and beat all the guys like a hell to make that again is annoying.

* We could have some Mechas to use too, warframes are armours, but why not an "powerarmour" like Fallout or TitanFall.

* Could you think about make Atlas rumbles more strong, or petrify enemies too for support, they are dumb as hell, and the damage they make are HORRIBLE. Some Atlas players ignore them. If fix that will be an perfect frame.

* Expand the range of Korra ulti and scale her whip damage, or make him do slash procs like ASH shurikens, that fix all the things.

* Make venari attack mutiple enemies on attack mode, not one per time. On the defense mode, make him emit an defensive aura like MESA third skill. Reflect bullets and CC enemies that come close. 

* Could us have some minigames to have fun with friends: Like more interaction, i remember a lot of Monster Hunter arm wrestling, dance places, sports. Players will love that type of thing.

And thank a lot for the update DE, your job is amazing!

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26 minutes ago, ArcusVeles said:

Having played with this a lot more, I really think Spores need to spread even if the target dies by sources other than the Saryn.  I shouldn't have to fight my allies and sentinel/pet for kills to ensure my stuff keeps spreading.  I keep having to recast Spores often and it's awkward.

There is a video in this topic showing spores spreading even when killed by allies. When an ally kills an enemy infected with spores, and does not pop the spore, the spores still spread at half range.

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb Valiant55:

Spores use to spread toxic status if the enemy was effected by toxic when the spores on them were popped and this is no longer the case. It would be nice if either this was retained or reintroduced with viral procs to spread both viral and corrosive. TBH this might not be whole necessary but in her previous iteration it helped with damage and I was disappointed that my weapons now don't synergize as well with my abilities as they use to.

I have been suggesting this same thing.

Spores: Switch to Toxin Damage that stacks with time

Toxic Lash: Gives Weapons Corrosive damage to strip armor and pop spores.

Corrosive on Spores is a bad choice as the way it functioned before was a direct hit to enemies health "true damage" where the change now is heavily dependend of the enemies armor. Having Toxin damage stack over time would actually have more synergy with Miasma then the corrosive does now.

Saryn is benched in my roster until there are some thought out changes.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Just tested this myself! When you use Ferrox's alt fire and toss it into a surface, there is a 5 second delay before it deals a dose of Electricity damage (this is intended for the Ferrox as it deals Electricity damage every 5 seconds). So as long as you have Toxic Lash on during the time it takes for enemies to be pull in + those 5 seconds between when damage is dealt, Spores will spread!

However, if you test this yourself and still come across some issues that may be bug related, let me know the details so I can track it down 🙂

 

Doesn't seem to work for me:

https://imgur.com/a/yYQe7J1

As you can see in the image I have Toxic Lash active plus spores on one enemy. The Ferrox doesn't inflict toxin proc to any target nor does it spread spores (you can see the radiation proc from my ferrox, so damage tick(s) have occured. If I however HIT with direct contact to an enemy by throwing the spear, it does just that. 

Hope this helps 🙂

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Comparing to the old Saryn, the new one feels odd. I am missing the ´complex synergy´ now, in general it feels more energy hungry than it was and I think that it can easily become a ´press 4´ frame now by modding it for range and strength.

 

Spores:           

Detonating the spores breaks the synergy with the other abilities especially with Toxic Lash, which is something the player wants to keep on.

In my opinion, there is no scenario where the player wants to clear the air and I feel this goes against the idea of having DoTs on the enemies.

Recasting should allow the player to continue spreading the disease… instead of curing the infected, and forcing the player to instantly try to recast after detonation, making Saryn energy inefficient.

I think that spores should also spread toxic and viral by the enemy infected by such statuses, this increases the synergy with the other abilities.

 

Molt:

Feels fine, I miss being able to cast spores on it.

An idea to improve it, remove the time duration and make it armor, health and power strength based just like Frost´s Snow globe or Rhino´s Iron skin, and make it vulnerable to player damage, allowing the player to cast spores on it, helping the player to spread spores but damaging and probably destroying molt in the process, avoiding the issue of the spore/molt machine guns. This keeps the time bomb idea but based on the damage it receives instead of a mix of time and damage. Recasting should create a new mold (with a limit as Frost´s Snow globe).

 

 Toxic Lash:

Building around it for melee damage feels good, but despite of the increased duration, it makes Saryn very energy inefficient, making Toxic Lash and Spores hard to keep it on.

 

Miasma:

As the enemies cannot be stunned again, the stun duration could be a little longer because its cast animation takes a good dealt of it, only allowing the player to cast miasma and flee, instead of counter the attacking.

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Hey guys! Wanted to pop in before us Canadians head out on a long weekend (Victoria Day on Monday woop woop). Thank you for all of your feedback so far, we've got lots of great notes on your first impressions.  

Looking forward to reading more of your thoughts as a weekend of Saryn playing is upon us!

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Make spores spread full range when the enemy dies regardless of who/what kills the enemy.

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Veteran Saryn enthusiast here, and after 3 hours of testing in both simulacrum and star chart, I can firmly say I support this rework as a positive thing. 

Things I like:

-all audio/visual changes

-all molt changes

-all toxic lash changes

-all miasma changes

-I like spore's swap to corrosive. Fluff/lore wise, if you still think about the spores as magic/sci-fi bio goop that works like xenomorph acid blood mixed with some kind of rapid-onset pathogen, they still "feel" like super-poison so I don't think there's any issue with the lore/fluff of swapping to corrosive. Corrosive damage is good damage, and the corrosive proc is a great proc. I was worried about high-level corpus enemies, but with all the gas/toxin I was pumping out with my weapons + toxic lash, lvl 80+ corpus enemies died just as fast as they always have. 

 

Things I dislike are all spore and spore-related, so I'll do my best to keep this brief while still providing enough exposition to help DE (and other readers) know what I'm talking about. 

-spore spreading (so far, spreading is clunky and seems to not work well like it used to; it does sometimes, seems random)

-spores competing with other players' (idk why this is, maybe an internet/host issue, but it seems like only 1 Saryn in a game has the "dominant" spores)

-spores being popped by re-pressing 1 needs to be changed to either "hold 1" to pop, or auto-pop like with re-casting molt (I'm fine with either, just luxury of life issue)

-spores no longer feel useful for large maps and long-term battles, because previously the spores would spread far and linger (with no danger of popping/losing stack) and would ensure by the time you and/or your allies are ready to engage those enemies, they're already debuffed and suffering dots; now with the changes, spores seem to be a very "active" ability with how I have to manage them and be aware of them, they're no longer a faf debuff+dot, and that not only lessens my enjoyment of Saryn because I feel like I have to constantly keep aware of spores and monitor the enemies they're affecting, but I feel like it makes me far less of a "support" dps, which is how I feel like Saryn was always meant to be played (melee support dps)

-spores on weak enemies seem to linger only a bit longer than previous, but that's irrelevant because toxic lash working on ranged weapons means even weaker/newer Saryn players will shred things faster when using "proper synergy", meaning they don't need longer 'wind up' time on the spores in regards to damage; a simple fix for this could be giving a .5 to 1 second delay before the damage of spores takes effect, giving you a window of time to establish and spread spores on weak things which are gonna get mulched anyway, regardless of level

-spores on strong enemies seems to be fine in regards the damage, but unless Im missing something about the new synergy, spores don't feel like the way Saryn is supposed to be dealing the bulk of her damage; the spores feel like they're a debuff/support power still (and I like that, plz no changie) but don't seem to debuff/support as well as they used to with toxin/viral (especially with viral instantly cutting ehp by 50%); meaning that against tough enemies where it matters your team is probably stripping/bypassing armor already (party is CP-heavy, has good gear/frame synergy, etc) and would benefit far more from viral, making spores in their current state effectively "weaker" as a debuff/support power by association, even if the math and solo tests say otherwise (tl;dr good change for solo/rando, possibly weak change for doing anything that requires build synergy with other players**)

-spores only spreading from a single cast severely limits the tactical application of Saryn's spores; the reason I dislike this is spores is a support power, not a main damage ability, and if I have to make the application, management, and spreading of these spores part of my active tactical focus, it feels like it has become a burden unworthy of what it offers in return; this might not make as much sense as my other points, but I have a feeling veteran players will know what I mean (tl;dr i dont like having only one 'group' of enemies at a time that I have to actively manage in order to make spores useful/viable, and only one group at a time means I can't tactically fly back and forth keeping my debuffs/dots rolling on the entire opfor)

-so while I love the look and feel of new spores, as well as the good ideas behind them, I don't want to use spores for intense/serious play now because of how different they "feel"; going to keep at it though and see what I can discover with new spores as time goes on

 

I hope this helps DE and other players with Saryn's rework, my intent with this post is to provide my feedback as well as support for intelligent & fun changes to perhaps my favorite Warframe. Thank you. 

 

** I type this with full knowledge that there are many upcoming changes with elemental effects and melee, so this might actually be a good thing once future changes go into effect

 

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46 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

There is a video in this topic showing spores spreading even when killed by allies. When an ally kills an enemy infected with spores, and does not pop the spore, the spores still spread at half range.

Allies can pop spores with abilities or weapons, but they absolutely aren't spreading on death.  I have a team of four who has helped me test this a lot, in the Simulacrum and in ESO.  Even just putting Spores on one enemy while solo and letting my sentinel kill it will result in no spread Spores.

In general, Spores spread far, far less effectively now than they did before these changes.

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10 minutes ago, ArcusVeles said:

Allies can pop spores with abilities or weapons, but they absolutely aren't spreading on death.  I have a team of four who has helped me test this a lot, in the Simulacrum and in ESO.

There is a video in this forum showing spores spreading on death when killed by an ally. This isn't a point of contention. Unless you want to put up a video showing what is you are talking about I'd suggest removing user error and being thorough in your tests before saying it is an issue with the ability.

 

EDIT: I think what you are experiencing is the halved range on death.

EDIT: Where before allies could easily pop spores with AoE and get the full range. Now spores are more consistently popping at half range. Firstly because allies can't pop spores with AoE and secondly now enemies are only infected with 1 spore when a spore is spread, making it difficult for allies to actually hit the spore.

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A couple of notes I forgot in my initial feedback:

* If you're looking to spread infection, Spores-ed enemies are too hard to discern from enemies simply Tox procced by Toxic Lash.
Maybe it's just my min-graphics, but it basically devolves into clouds of numbers, and the only way to distinguish is to try and spot the corrosive status procs.
Not very conducive to trying to rekindle a dying infection.

 

6 hours ago, Chroia said:

Spores is excellent in SO modes, made useless elsewhere by its restricted delivery mechanic and constant burnouts.

* To elaborate:
Enemy spawn-point density and spread incentivise camping a dead-end, as in Sewer camp.

 In SO/ESO, you're disincentivised from canceling your Spores - the spawn point density makes it likely that letting the Spores kill the last carrier will take long enough for new spawns to pop in to pick up the infection from its death.

Outside of SO however, the restriction on seeding spores, combined with the encompassing spawns if you're in a hub tile either forces you to constantly be ending active Infections in one spot so you can start one in another, losing you both spend build-up time, as well as energy.

An easy counter to that, ofc, is to hole up in a dead end, forcing all the spawns to bottleneck and infect each other.
Which is, I believe, a play style you're trying to move away from?

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Okay, heeeere we go. I really adore saryn so I want this to work but the rework only put her back on the "press 4 to win" kind of play style that was supposed to be addressed by the prior rework, and it did, kind of.

First of I kind of disliked the changing of damage types of spores and miasma alongside the changes to the spreading of the spores as well. Conceptually speaking saryn should be spreading disease all over the map not nuking the whole room with the press of a button, making the spores un recastable makes it harder to spread especially when you can only infect one enemy a cast, again making miasma an easier and more efficient way of getting things done. Spores is the core of saryns abilities, this iteration of spores breaks that. I think that spores should be a lot easier to spread. Can't we just move the spore detonation as an option like; hold 1 to detonate or have miasma detonate and immediately re apply spores to those hit by miasma?  I honestly don't mind lower damage numbers but this saryn right now is just very inconsistent and incohesive. 

I think miasma should be the clean things up button, not the clean everything button. What I mean with that is it should done in everything that spores can't. Lowers number is fine but making it have more utility more like; if enemies are affected by spores it immediately strips their armor or shields away, would be a welcome change and would still make sence conceptually. Anything that isn't press 4 to win is better.

I kind of liked the speed boost on molt tho, well, you're shedding skin. Of course you'd be lighter and faster so that's a welcome addition. Also chnges to toxic lash is okay for the most part but with the changes to spores I guess my melee lash + spore range build is effectively dead. Too bad, would have been fun with the speed boost from molt lol.

Hope that they take another lookat changing saryns spores because she is the spores, if she's not spreading it like crazy where's the "fight poison with poison"? :'(

Spores= viral

miasma= corrosive

Spores + miasma= strip armor(instantly) +half health + pop and re apply spores.

something like that, if it's too crazy then lowers the damage numbers. It's the concept coherence and cohesion that I care about were already too powerful anyway. 

This is an opinion anyways, I knoe that someone out there has better ideas so please let those ideas be heard, I loce saryn and I want her to work beautifully.

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On 2018-05-18 at 12:53 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

c2958b86152985ee840df054169e720b.jpg

"This... is Saryn. Elusive and deadly." ... Only now, she's even more elusive and deadlier. 

The poison queen has made her second debut into the hall of revisited Warframes in Beasts of the Sanctuary: Update 22.20.0! We hope you enjoy experimenting with her changes. We will be watching closely for your first impressions. As always, we appreciate your constructive feedback and encourage you to thoroughly play with the rework before sharing your thoughts. Please provide videos/images where possible when you do!

Interesting in hearing the devs perspective on the changes? Check out the official Saryn Revisited 2.0 Dev Workshop! For ability changes, read on in the spoilers below:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Spores 
Inflicts target with a pox of Corrosive spores. Spread spores to nearby enemies by destroying them or killing their host (*Specifically by the spores themselves or by the hand of the Saryn who owns those Spores). Trigger the ability again to detonate active spores. Additionally:

  • Increased Status Chance from 10% to 50% (scales with Power Strength). 
  • A meter in the bottom right corner of your screen will show the number of affected enemies and how much damage is being dealt per tick to said enemies.
  • Recasting Spores detonates all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an inflicted enemy based on the number of active Spores and the current damage per tick. 
  • Venom Dose Augment: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive damage to all attacks.

Molt
Shedding her skin like a snake, Saryn leaves a decoy behind to draw fire from enemies.  Additionally:

  • After casting, Saryn receives a momentary speed boost for a short duration. 
  • Molt now scales similar to Rhino’s Iron Skin - All the initial damage it takes in the first 3 seconds will make it stronger. Any damage it receives after that point will target the absorbed health.*
  • *Damage absorbed is shown in a buff indicator at the top of the screen.
  • *Once all absorbed damage has dispensed, Molt explodes dealing Toxin damage to nearby enemies. 

Toxic Lash 
While active, attacks deal additional Toxin damage; this effect is doubled for melee strikes. Instantly burst spores when attacking afflicted enemies. Additionally:

  • Increased Duration from 30 seconds to 45 seconds. 
  • Toxic Lash no longer grants 2 Energy restore when bursting Spores - With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increased duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is not as Energy hungry as she was before!
  • Contagion Cloud Augment: Kills with Toxic Lash leaves behind a Toxin cloud and Melee kills double the damage dealt by the cloud. 

Miasma
Release a poisonous miasma that deals Viral damage to enemies in range. Foes afflicted by spores are more susceptible to the mist. Additionally:

  • Now has a 100% guaranteed Viral Status Effect on damage tick. 
  • Increased range from 15 meters to 20 meters (at max rank). 
  • Increased duration from 3 to 5 seconds.
  • Miasma inflicts double damage on targets affected by Spores. 
  • When recasting on the same enemy it will refresh the tick duration and maintain the Viral Status Effect, but will not stun enemies a second time until the Status Effect ticks have subsided. 

General Changes to Saryn: 

  • Increased Saryn’s Armor from 175 to 225 (at rank 30)
  • Increased Saryn Prime’s Armor from 225 to 300 (at rank 30) 
  • Made some minor FX updates to Saryn’s abilities! 
    • Spores received a slight improvement to the FX.
    • Reduced the brightness of Miasma.
    • Improved FX to make her Molt cast more pronounced.
  • Spores have been optimized and will be much nicer to your CPU! 
  • Saryn is also coming with a whole new set of sounds voiced by [DE]Danielle. 

 

Also providing the FAQ list that was originally posted in the workshop here, and will continue to update it as questions pop up:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Q: Is Saryn's passive changing in her rework? 
A: It remains the same! Status Effects last longer on inflicted enemies. 

Q: Can you only spread Spores by having an enemy die while inflicted? 
A: That's one way of doing it! Destroying a Spore and dealing damage to enemies while Toxin Lash active will also spread Spores to surrounding enemies. 

Q: Does recasting Spores detonate all active Spores? 
A: Yes! 

Q: Is there a limit to how many enemies can be inflicted with Spores? 
A: No limit! 

Q: Is there a limit to Spores escalating damage? 
A: Spores can reach up to 100k damage per tick.

Q: Do Toxin Procs still get transferred via Spores?
A: Toxin Procs no longer get transferred via Spores. Instead of relying on that damage being carried we increased the overall damage of Spores and Melee with Toxin Lash. 

Q: Does Miasma pop Spores when cast? 
A: It does not! It will deal double damage on enemies inflicted with Spores, but Spores will continue on as usual regardless. 

Q: Can Molt still be recast to create a new decoy (destroying a previous instance in the process)? 
A: Yes! 

Q: Does Miasma still detonate Molt if its within range? 
A: It does not! 

Q: Can I still spread Spores with AOE damage?
A: You sure can! As long as Toxic Lash is active, you can spread spores with weapons with AOE damage. 

Q: How many Spores are transferred at a time? 
A: If you burst 1 Spore (or deal damage to a "spored" enemy with Toxic Lash) it will transfer a single Spore to nearby enemies. However! If all 3 Spores are burst in a single instance all 3 can spread.

Q: Can companions spread Spores? 

A: Yes! If they target and burst the Spores, they can spread. 

Known issues: 

  • Spore counter in the UI disappearing if you swap to your Operator and back as Client. 
  • Spore counter in the UI remaining when switching to Operator. 
  • Casting Spores on an enemy that dies during the animation locks the ability from being recast until you die. 
  • Spores not doing damage while in Operator but damage continuing to increase over time. 
  • Spores breaking when entering the Onslaught Conduit while Spores is active. 
  • Above bugs have been fixed in Hotfix 22.20.2 ^
  • [Came back to life] Casting Spores on an enemy that dies during the animation locks the ability from being recast until you die.
     

 

Dear developers, enough talking about mechanics, I'm here to honestly analyse why the new Saryn is not FUN. And give a few suggestions on how to merge new and old Saryn together. While also truly eliminate the 2-1111 spammer and solve the problem that the Miasma is still problematic after rework.

The whole rework brings a massive change in Saryn's playstyle. We need to do different things to get a similar result.

Old Saryn Playstyle:

In low to mid-Lv missions: Cast Spore, hit enemies with weapons modded for toxin or gas proc, and see the chain reaction of spore explosion do AOE damage.

In high Lv missions: Cast Spore to half enemies HP for the entire team, hit enemies with weapons that carefully moded for Slash, Corrosive or etc to kill them. The Toxin procs carried by the spores could do some additional damage.

Reworked Saryn Playstyle:

In low to mid-lv missions: Your spore need too much time to scale, your weapons and teammate would kill enemies efficiently. So you become a 4 spammer.

In high Lv missions: Just cast Spores, carefully take care of the infected enemies by chasing them, not shoot them immediately, to make sure the spore keep scaling and spreading. Then the spore would automatically nuke the entire map without any strategy, weapon interaction or else.

With these comparisons, it's obvious to see that several facts that can bring interest to the player are missing.

1. The effort needed to kill strong enemies is very less. I melee soloed an elite sanctuary onslaught and I got 200 melee kills with 3100 spore kills. So technically I can just sit there and watch enemies dying. Just keep eyes on spore spreading. Sometimes the last enemy infected by spore is at somewhere I can't find. I can do nothing, but when he died, the spore spread and all other new enemies quickly died together. I can still do nothing.

2. The overall skill requirement is drastically reduced. You don't have to mod your weapon for toxin proc to do additional damage, nor use slash proc combine with viral spore to kill high lv enemies. I feel like I'm not playing this game with a brain and thinking how to combine the viral proc and the carried toxin proc with my weapons and teammates, but just a brainless spore-keeper.

3. You are not helping your teammate but eliminating their participation in some ways. Your teammate would have to do nothing but helping you to manage your spore spreading, and watching you sitting there but still get 75% damage of the entire team. This is mainly because corrosive proc is easily replaceable by corrosive projection or good armor stripping weapons such as Torid, Pox, Zenistar, etc. But a sustained viral proc that benefit the entire team and effective on all factions is hard to replace.

The loss of several features also affect the fun that they can bring:

1. Toxin Lash no longer regens 2 energy. The true interest that this feature could bring is more modding potential. It would allow Saryn to self-regen some energy, which means the players would not be limited to Zenurik, Energy Siphon or Rage. Other focus schools would be considerable. Open a mod slot for more modding potential. Also, it would benefit Saryn, especially melee Saryn's survivability drastically. With this energy regen, you can keep channelling melee and utilize Life Strike. Or you can spam Regenerative Molt and leave a mod slot on your melee weapon, allow you to mod you melee with more damage, speed or range, which could be more fun. Finally, with this energy regen, melee Saryn becomes a good choice of energy reduction Sorties. You would have enough energy to use your 1 for debuff, and spam your 2 to keep alive.

As for developers who argued that the reworked Saryn is no longer energy hungry. I would like to ask if they ever play their game. For both new and old Saryn, when fighting tough high lv enemies, the true energy-hungry ability is never her Spore. She needs to constantly cast Regenerative Molt to distract enemies and keep alive. She needs to use the Miasma as emergency CC before entering an enemy crowded tunnel. Spore was always a cheap ability, even for the stupid lazy spammers who don't know how to play Saryn properly but just spam 21111111. In addition, new Saryn is basically a 4 spammer in low lv mission, which is even more energy hungry.

2. Unable to cast spore on Molt. Not all players use it as a mindless spore turret. Also, considering Saryn need to cast Molt very often in the tough face to face battle. Run to enemies----Cast Molt----Evading/Rolling----Put Spore on the Molt.........This is an awesome way to engage in a battle safely, create opens to attack and have become one of my instinct movement. It just makes you feel you are a skilled player and acting like a cool space ninja.

Finally, here is my suggestion on how to merge the new Saryn, infinite scaling damage and the old Saryn together:

Spore:

Basically change it back to what it was. However, remove the viral explosion damage when a spore is popped. Hence the 2-111111 spammer is banned forever since there is no burst damage but pure Viral Debuff. In addition, allow the Spore to carry the Toxin proc again. By combining this with the new Toxin Lash, it could do some not-so-crazy AOE damage and create a more clever, active playstyle.

Then, add in a new mechanic. When the spore is infecting an enemy, a damage number is shown by the new UI meter that would infinitely scaling. The more enemies are infected, the longer the spore is infecting, the damage number scaling faster. Considering the old Spore has an internal CD of spreading to an infected enemy, the scaling speed would not be broken.

This scaling damage number would not affect the viral DOT damage that spore deals during its existing duration. Spore act only as a tool to spread Viral and Toxin proc, while generating this scaling damage number.

The scaling damage number could be used as an additional resource to enhance other abilities, just like Nidus' Mutation Stack.

There are several ways I can think of here:

1. The damage number would be added as additional damage to your next Miasma cast. After this cast, the damage number is refreshed or consumed partially.

This would solve the problem that Miasma is basically untouched after the rework and still not very worthy to use besides as a CC.

If the player wants to deal more damage by Miasma, he needs to play actively to keep more spore infecting more enemies for a longer duration. The player will have an AOE nuke similar to Day Form Equinox's 4. By carefully playing the number, this strong AOE that could deal corrosive damage would be very rewarding but not broken. It can absolutely nuke the map but need time and effort to build the damage up.

2. The damage number would be added as additional damage to the Toxin proc created by Toxin Lash on its next casting(Or some similar enhancing effect). After this cast of Toxin Lash, the scaling damage number is refreshed.

This is just another way to utilize this infinite scaling resource. The player would have to think that if he wants to deal more damage by the Toxin Lash, but have to spend the time to build up damage. Considering how enemy Armor and Hp scales, the Toxin damage type, and Toxin Lash has a limited duration, this would not be a broken ability. The player can let the damage number scale to a very very high level after a long duration, and do some really insane AOE damage since Spores can carry Toxin Proc. But he would only able to do this like 5 minutes once.

3. Etc.....

Molt:

1. Simply allow players to cast Spore on Molt every X second. Considering I suggested to remove the viral burst damage when a Spore is popped, this would actually be unnecessary because the 2-11111 spamming is banned forever.

2. Other changes brought by the rework is welcomed.

Toxin Lash:

1. Brings back the 2 energy regen, but limit it to melee strike. The reason and necessity are given above. It's just a fantastic feature that has a lot of potentials.

2. Other possible changes relate to the Infinite Scaling Mechanic I suggested above.

Miasma:

Cooperating with the new mechanic I suggested above, allow it to be enhanced by the Infinite Scaling Mechanic. And in order to make the enhancement become worthy, change its damage type back to corrosive and allow more ability duration to give it more damage ticks. Possibly, allow it to proc corrosive.

 

All my above suggestions are based on objective analysation centred around "What makes a player feel fun.", while also taking consideration of creating more acting and clever playstyle. Hope my time and suggestions would be helpful and this post would go to developers who are responsible for their players.

 

Some additional chatting:

To be honest, the ignorance of people's feedforward during theory-crafting last weekend is not a good marketing decision. When customers already point out that a change is not necessary or problematic, and it is still problematic after implementation. This exposes a fact that the developers haven't listened to the community and carefully exam the changes that they are going to imply before execution. Which is a bad attitude that really should not exist.

I am a loyal player and understand the importance and pressure of keep generating new content for WARFRAME. But sometimes it's not bad to slow a bit when serious changes are coming. Let a single person doing a broad affecting task such as Saryn rework is hard and would unavoidably cause marketing problem.

I played this game nearly two years and spent a lot of money in it. But the recent stream of developers' attitude shown by Ember and Saryn rework make me feels a bit worry. The reworks haven't really solved problems but create new problems. Not mentioning this boring new Saryn, Ember can still rekt low lv missions but lost her CC potential in high lv missions. Honestly, after this Saryn "Rework", it is the first time I am thinking of quit WARFRAME if my favourite frame is reworked under such attitude while truly weak frames are not touched.

All in all, still a big big thanks to your hard working. May you have a nice day and hope the game would work through these problems eventually.

 

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So pretty much most of my concerns from here are confirmed. As of now my Saryn has been added to the pile of Frames I'll never use again. 

Spores can be useful.....so long as there are a lot of enemies clustered together on the screen and no one else kills them, cause they don't spread if a another player kills them or anything else kills a spored target. So outside of Solo this ability is now a literal Slot Machine, will it work? Or will it die off before it can really do anything? so far in my experiences...it dies off before it can do anything simply due to the new spread mechanics and lack of ability to recast it again with out detonating it. I am not impressed with it so far.

Molt and Toxic Lash? Nothings really changed about either aside from Lash now affecting all weapons with melee doing double damage these are just slightly more useful now.

Miasma? .....Well it went from being useful as an "Oh S#&$!" button that could potentially save you from getting killed to not even worth pressing since the stun is shorter then what it used to be and is reliant on spores for any real damage. 

Saryn was fine before you "reworked" her and all she needed was a few minor tweaks now she's basically garbage. So thanks for killing a frame I used to enjoy. 

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1 minute ago, ICA-970326-47 said:

Dear developers, enough talking about mechanics, I'm here to honestly analyse why the new Saryn is not FUN... *snip*

Yeah no kid... I absolutely disagree with you. Sorry... but she's a blast. 

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2 minutes ago, Nurmetya said:

Spores can be useful.....so long as there are a lot of enemies clustered together on the screen and no one else kills them, cause they don't spread if a another player kills them or anything else kills a spored target.

Part of this statement is incorrect. There is a video in this topic showing spores spreading on enemy death when killed by a teammate.

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59 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Wanted to pop

I see what you did there Danielle 🙂

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I love Saryn. She's my GoTo frame. Always found her great for my playstyle.

Miasma is good. Maybe too good. Right now it's on the edge of "press 4 to win". At least on lower levels (<50). On higher levels, the damage scaling falls off quickly though.

Molt: Like all the changes, but the speed boost. It's not "bad", I'm just not used to it on Saryn. Would love an option to NOT have that speed boost on Molt, but doubt that would happen. The 4 seconds invuln and gain health really work well on it for suitability at higher levels.

Toxic Lash: Nice change. Love that it works with all weapons now. Though since popping the Spores doesn't grant energy anymore, would it be possible to have it increase Toxic Lash duration by 2 seconds for every enemy infested with Spores and then killed with Toxic Lash?

Saryn's Armor: Well, I like it, but dang did that boost it. I've got 765 armor on Saryn Prime without trying to min/max build her for armor. Makes her -very- hardy. While I'm not calling for a nerf, this is riding the edge of what should be.

That all being said, the rework of Spores is abysmal.

Detonating on Recast. This idea is the worst that could possibly be put on Spores. Multiple casts are how her Spores spread best (which is why she has a nice big energy pool). Killing enemies to spread them? There's NEVER enough enemies grouped to facilitate that. They come in spurts, and from different directions. Previously, one could cast four times to each compass point to spread Spores around. Now, you just get to go in one direction.

Then there's the "increasing damage" on Spores. This only happens if you let the enemies live long enough to do so. This is Warframe. Enemies die fast! Fast paced game play is what Warframe is about. Go ask Steve if you don't believe me, because I can go onto Twitch and pull a few dozen quotes of him saying they want to keep the combat fast paced. With this new SLOW build on damage, Spores are anything but "fast paced". Most times enemies are dead before Spores tic 2 dozen times. With the slow damage creep, this barely hit 4k on high level testing, and that was after allowing 20ish enemies to tic while I stood back and waited....and waited....and waited.

The range on Spore spreading is BROKEN. Don't know what was done to it, but I've killed enemies with Spores on them (with Toxic Lash active), and watched enemies right next to the target (within 3m at least!) not be affected. Spores are flat out NOT spreading as detailed, and especially NOT as needed.

In short, Spores just became useless. They either need to spread far and fast, or deal damage quickly. Right now, they do neither.

 

Edit for information:: While I stated above that I hit 4k damage on current Spores, this was after a good 3-5 minutes of waiting. With the old, viral system, I had modded for Spores to do an instant 1500 damage out the gate on those same enemy types. That's with cutting their health by 50% with the viral proc, so effective damage of Spores with the old system was 3k out the gate. So 4k after 3 minutes is a huge nerf to her Spore damage. Now, if the damage increased while on enemies, but only decreased by the same time frame with no enemies, resuming increase when cast upon enemies again...then it would be worth something.

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