[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD

[SyBuhr]

54 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

I love Saryn. She's my GoTo frame. Always found her great for my playstyle.

Miasma is good. Maybe too good. Right now it's on the edge of "press 4 to win". At least on lower levels (<50). On higher levels, the damage scaling falls off quickly though.

Molt: Like all the changes, but the speed boost. It's not "bad", I'm just not used to it on Saryn. Would love an option to NOT have that speed boost on Molt, but doubt that would happen. The 4 seconds invuln and gain health really work well on it for suitability at higher levels.

Toxic Lash: Nice change. Love that it works with all weapons now. Though since popping the Spores doesn't grant energy anymore, would it be possible to have it increase Toxic Lash duration by 2 seconds for every enemy infested with Spores and then killed with Toxic Lash?

Saryn's Armor: Well, I like it, but dang did that boost it. I've got 765 armor on Saryn Prime without trying to min/max build her for armor. Makes her -very- hardy. While I'm not calling for a nerf, this is riding the edge of what should be.

That all being said, the rework of Spores is abysmal.

Detonating on Recast. This idea is the worst that could possibly be put on Spores. Multiple casts are how her Spores spread best (which is why she has a nice big energy pool). Killing enemies to spread them? There's NEVER enough enemies grouped to facilitate that. They come in spurts, and from different directions. Previously, one could cast four times to each compass point to spread Spores around. Now, you just get to go in one direction.

Then there's the "increasing damage" on Spores. This only happens if you let the enemies live long enough to do so. This is Warframe. Enemies die fast! Fast paced game play is what Warframe is about. Go ask Steve if you don't believe me, because I can go onto Twitch and pull a few dozen quotes of him saying they want to keep the combat fast paced. With this new SLOW build on damage, Spores are anything but "fast paced". Most times enemies are dead before Spores tic 2 dozen times. With the slow damage creep, this barely hit 4k on high level testing, and that was after allowing 20ish enemies to tic while I stood back and waited....and waited....and waited.

The range on Spore spreading is BROKEN. Don't know what was done to it, but I've killed enemies with Spores on them (with Toxic Lash active), and watched enemies right next to the target (within 3m at least!) not be affected. Spores are flat out NOT spreading as detailed, and especially NOT as needed.

In short, Spores just became useless. They either need to spread far and fast, or deal damage quickly. Right now, they do neither.

Essentially this. I like all her changes, the armor buff was needed IMO, along with the Molt buffs.

She really is just a "press-4-to-win" frame now, only her 4 doesn't scale as well, and sort of requires the now buggy-spores to really be effective, which simply isn't happening in game-play. Sure, you can get insane stacks in simulacrum, but that's in an area of the game pretty much built for theory-crafting, and not actual gameplay. I don't think I've ever hit about 400-500 damage with spores, and they do not last nearly as long as they should simply due to bad-spreading. Built for max range, and the spread is still 50/50 on whether it lasts 20 seconds or 5 seconds. Sure, the scaling damage is awesome, and I think all the saryn mains (myself included) love that aspect, but it simply doesn't work in action like it should. At worst, it's a minor nerf to what she had before, and at best it is a side-grade to what she had.

She's pretty broken right now, and that's sort of expected given it is a re-work of the frame. But as it stands, she simply isn't enjoyable to (try to) play currently.

• Allow her spores to remain on enemies who become corrupted, rather than the spores just disappearing. The spores used to do this on Saryn 2.0, so I am not sure if this was an intentional removal, or if it was just a bug at the time. This is a quality-of-life change, because as it stands, her 1 (and subsequently her 4) are useless in void missions, because the spores disappear due to the Void portals, and then also disappear due to nullifiers. This would allow players playing Saryn effectively to preemptively apply the spores on crewmen/targets, gain tick damage, and  then be rewarded for doing so. As it stands, you are pretty much punished for playing Saryn on void, since nothing of her's can be cast preemptively to engage enemies before the fight has even begun, where other frames can do this (I.E.: Ember's 1 AoE. It doesn't damage during the invuln time for the enemies, but if the AoE persists after they change, you can pop the nullifier bubble immediately with it, rewarding you for engaging and actively playing. Saryn's Spores should handle this similarly, though due to their nature, shouldn't pop the bubble.)
• Allow a specified amount of re-casts on her spores. As it stands, they are not spreading as efficiently/effectively as they should. I like the idea of the spore detonation, so I don't think removal of that is necessary. I think (personally) if I had a total of 2 (or 3 casts, but that's being generous) casts, I could alleviate some of pain from this abysmal spreading
• Re-evaluation of the Spore-spread attribute. Clearly something is not adding up with how they theoretically spread and how they spread-in-action.
• A fix on the "ever-lasting-invisible-spores-that-do-nothing".This bug is still present, at least when I tested on Taveuni (@4 this morning). I am not sure if it is due to the Turrets (since they constantly respawn, and thus somehow bug the spores, and the UI), or if it is due to an issue relating to Khora's Strangledome (can't comment on vauban, didn't play with any Vaub. players).

These are probably my 4 biggest complaints with how she is setup right now. I really do feel this was actually set to be an amazing re-work, and that some of these bugs (namely the spreading) have gimped her incredibly. Even if the Spores remained a 1-time cast, I think that once her spore-spread is fixed, she'll be back to being enjoyable to play, regardless of my other two bulleted-statements. I think the speed boost, the invuln.time, added armor, those are all great, and really made the life of playing saryn a touch easier, and more enjoyable to play.

 

[AutoPhox]

I like all the buffs to Saryn. The one thing i miss is being able to cast spores multiple times. I perfer that over the detonate upon casting mechanic. But i see how it could self combo with the damage ramp. Still happy with the overall changes. Thanks!

 

Edit: Also, re: what SyBur says above me.

Edited May 19, 2018 by AutoPhox

[Aktriaz]

Overall, I'm very disappointed with this rework. I really enjoyed Saryn's previous setup, because of her Ability Synergy, and requiring actual human input. Meaning, using all her abilities often enough, and achieving peak performance, as well as having to interact directly to achieve said performance. Harrow is probably the best example of this, and Saryn was a fairly good example, albeit with some flaws (some of which were fixed in this rework, but...).

Many may disagree with me, but I think the scaling damage of Spores was a mistake. It has literally become another map-wide nuke that pretty much works with ZERO player input. Coupled with the addition of spreading on death, this is a recipe for disaster. I personally think that you should only have one; "spreading on death" OR "scaling damage". Both just seem to have removed the need for player interaction. Plus, not being able to manually recast spores really irks me, since I like to dash about, and having to recast spores because the last time I cast it was a room away, and apparently +90% range isn't enough.

How ironic, that Spores interaction with Molt was removes because "it was too campy", and now Spores work best when there's a constant stream of enemies in a stationary position.

Toxic Lash lost it's niche. Spores spread themselves, and Toxic Procs no longer multiply the damage dealt, and there is no more energy gain by popping spores. I never really used Toxic Lash before, because with my setup I didn't need the energy and could spread spores just fine using Zakti, but plenty of other people did. Now it just seems out of place-- not having any significant interactions with other abilities, or playstyle for that matter.

In all honesty, if you were to switch Saryn back to the way she was pre-rework-- keeping the Molt invincibility phase (mostly because you never did fix Regenerative Molt not healing after Molt dies...), I would be more than happy. But I don't think that's going to happen.

You are certainly not going to ignore the sheer broken-ness of Spores, I am certain of that.

I want to play your game, not sit in a corner and watch EXP and damage numbers fill my screen while I eat a sandwich.

[Morthal]

So I really miss the unique synergy that Saryn used to bring to a squad. No matter who brought a corrosive projection, at least if a Saryn was present, you could count on nearly all enemies having 50% HP debuff. It was the only reason I took Saryn into any missions, knowing that I was going to be a support role. I've never looked at Saryn as a damage dealing/ nuke warframe but now I'm able to come close.

The current build I'm using is what I feel comes closest to the old Saryn's ability to spread viral across a large area. Because most of the other skills aside from Miasma, are trashy right now, it's a spam 4 nuke build with a low cost, great for ESO/Kuva/Exterminate...whatever you like. This is really boring however, not that prework build was more exciting. Still using spin2win for most enemies because it's the easiest way to survive still. Molt is great, speed buff much needed addition since base speed of 1.00 feelsbad. Saryn has no room for Rush or even Augments to me. I'd rather have the enemies be dead/CC'd than pretend I'm a tank. Anyway, below is my current viral nuke build, it's pretty much useless for all else but to support your squadmates, IF the enemies don't die first ( lower to mid levels that is ). 

[CuteFoxyFox]

3 hours ago, ICA-970326-47 said:

 

Dear developers, enough talking about mechanics, I'm here to honestly analyse why the new Saryn is not FUN. And give a few suggestions on how to merge new and old Saryn together. While also truly eliminate the 2-1111 spammer and solve the problem that the Miasma is still problematic after rework.

The whole rework brings a massive change in Saryn's playstyle. We need to do different things to get a similar result.

Old Saryn Playstyle:

In low to mid-Lv missions: Cast Spore, hit enemies with weapons modded for toxin or gas proc, and see the chain reaction of spore explosion do AOE damage.

In high Lv missions: Cast Spore to half enemies HP for the entire team, hit enemies with weapons that carefully moded for Slash, Corrosive or etc to kill them. The Toxin procs carried by the spores could do some additional damage.

Reworked Saryn Playstyle:

In low to mid-lv missions: Your spore need too much time to scale, your weapons and teammate would kill enemies efficiently. So you become a 4 spammer.

In high Lv missions: Just cast Spores, carefully take care of the infected enemies by chasing them, not shoot them immediately, to make sure the spore keep scaling and spreading. Then the spore would automatically nuke the entire map without any strategy, weapon interaction or else.

With these comparisons, it's obvious to see that several facts that can bring interest to the player are missing.

1. The effort needed to kill strong enemies is very less. I melee soloed an elite sanctuary onslaught and I got 200 melee kills with 3100 spore kills. So technically I can just sit there and watch enemies dying. Just keep eyes on spore spreading. Sometimes the last enemy infected by spore is at somewhere I can't find. I can do nothing, but when he died, the spore spread and all other new enemies quickly died together. I can still do nothing.

2. The overall skill requirement is drastically reduced. You don't have to mod your weapon for toxin proc to do additional damage, nor use slash proc combine with viral spore to kill high lv enemies. I feel like I'm not playing this game with a brain and thinking how to combine the viral proc and the carried toxin proc with my weapons and teammates, but just a brainless spore-keeper.

3. You are not helping your teammate but eliminating their participation in some ways. Your teammate would have to do nothing but helping you to manage your spore spreading, and watching you sitting there but still get 75% damage of the entire team. This is mainly because corrosive proc is easily replaceable by corrosive projection or good armor stripping weapons such as Torid, Pox, Zenistar, etc. But a sustained viral proc that benefit the entire team and effective on all factions is hard to replace.

The loss of several features also affect the fun that they can bring:

1. Toxin Lash no longer regens 2 energy. The true interest that this feature could bring is more modding potential. It would allow Saryn to self-regen some energy, which means the players would not be limited to Zenurik, Energy Siphon or Rage. Other focus schools would be considerable. Open a mod slot for more modding potential. Also, it would benefit Saryn, especially melee Saryn's survivability drastically. With this energy regen, you can keep channelling melee and utilize Life Strike. Or you can spam Regenerative Molt and leave a mod slot on your melee weapon, allow you to mod you melee with more damage, speed or range, which could be more fun. Finally, with this energy regen, melee Saryn becomes a good choice of energy reduction Sorties. You would have enough energy to use your 1 for debuff, and spam your 2 to keep alive.

As for developers who argued that the reworked Saryn is no longer energy hungry. I would like to ask if they ever play their game. For both new and old Saryn, when fighting tough high lv enemies, the true energy-hungry ability is never her Spore. She needs to constantly cast Regenerative Molt to distract enemies and keep alive. She needs to use the Miasma as emergency CC before entering an enemy crowded tunnel. Spore was always a cheap ability, even for the stupid lazy spammers who don't know how to play Saryn properly but just spam 21111111. In addition, new Saryn is basically a 4 spammer in low lv mission, which is even more energy hungry.

2. Unable to cast spore on Molt. Not all players use it as a mindless spore turret. Also, considering Saryn need to cast Molt very often in the tough face to face battle. Run to enemies----Cast Molt----Evading/Rolling----Put Spore on the Molt.........This is an awesome way to engage in a battle safely, create opens to attack and have become one of my instinct movement. It just makes you feel you are a skilled player and acting like a cool space ninja.

Finally, here is my suggestion on how to merge the new Saryn, infinite scaling damage and the old Saryn together:

Spore:

Basically change it back to what it was. However, remove the viral explosion damage when a spore is popped. Hence the 2-111111 spammer is banned forever since there is no burst damage but pure Viral Debuff. In addition, allow the Spore to carry the Toxin proc again. By combining this with the new Toxin Lash, it could do some not-so-crazy AOE damage and create a more clever, active playstyle.

Then, add in a new mechanic. When the spore is infecting an enemy, a damage number is shown by the new UI meter that would infinitely scaling. The more enemies are infected, the longer the spore is infecting, the damage number scaling faster. Considering the old Spore has an internal CD of spreading to an infected enemy, the scaling speed would not be broken.

This scaling damage number would not affect the viral DOT damage that spore deals during its existing duration. Spore act only as a tool to spread Viral and Toxin proc, while generating this scaling damage number.

The scaling damage number could be used as an additional resource to enhance other abilities, just like Nidus' Mutation Stack.

There are several ways I can think of here:

1. The damage number would be added as additional damage to your next Miasma cast. After this cast, the damage number is refreshed or consumed partially.

This would solve the problem that Miasma is basically untouched after the rework and still not very worthy to use besides as a CC.

If the player wants to deal more damage by Miasma, he needs to play actively to keep more spore infecting more enemies for a longer duration. The player will have an AOE nuke similar to Day Form Equinox's 4. By carefully playing the number, this strong AOE that could deal corrosive damage would be very rewarding but not broken. It can absolutely nuke the map but need time and effort to build the damage up.

2. The damage number would be added as additional damage to the Toxin proc created by Toxin Lash on its next casting(Or some similar enhancing effect). After this cast of Toxin Lash, the scaling damage number is refreshed.

This is just another way to utilize this infinite scaling resource. The player would have to think that if he wants to deal more damage by the Toxin Lash, but have to spend the time to build up damage. Considering how enemy Armor and Hp scales, the Toxin damage type, and Toxin Lash has a limited duration, this would not be a broken ability. The player can let the damage number scale to a very very high level after a long duration, and do some really insane AOE damage since Spores can carry Toxin Proc. But he would only able to do this like 5 minutes once.

3. Etc.....

Molt:

1. Simply allow players to cast Spore on Molt every X second. Considering I suggested to remove the viral burst damage when a Spore is popped, this would actually be unnecessary because the 2-11111 spamming is banned forever.

2. Other changes brought by the rework is welcomed.

Toxin Lash:

1. Brings back the 2 energy regen, but limit it to melee strike. The reason and necessity are given above. It's just a fantastic feature that has a lot of potentials.

2. Other possible changes relate to the Infinite Scaling Mechanic I suggested above.

Miasma:

Cooperating with the new mechanic I suggested above, allow it to be enhanced by the Infinite Scaling Mechanic. And in order to make the enhancement become worthy, change its damage type back to corrosive and allow more ability duration to give it more damage ticks. Possibly, allow it to proc corrosive.

 

All my above suggestions are based on objective analysation centred around "What makes a player feel fun.", while also taking consideration of creating more acting and clever playstyle. Hope my time and suggestions would be helpful and this post would go to developers who are responsible for their players.

 

Some additional chatting:

To be honest, the ignorance of people's feedforward during theory-crafting last weekend is not a good marketing decision. When customers already point out that a change is not necessary or problematic, and it is still problematic after implementation. This exposes a fact that the developers haven't listened to the community and carefully exam the changes that they are going to imply before execution. Which is a bad attitude that really should not exist.

I am a loyal player and understand the importance and pressure of keep generating new content for WARFRAME. But sometimes it's not bad to slow a bit when serious changes are coming. Let a single person doing a broad affecting task such as Saryn rework is hard and would unavoidably cause marketing problem.

I played this game nearly two years and spent a lot of money in it. But the recent stream of developers' attitude shown by Ember and Saryn rework make me feels a bit worry. The reworks haven't really solved problems but create new problems. Not mentioning this boring new Saryn, Ember can still rekt low lv missions but lost her CC potential in high lv missions. Honestly, after this Saryn "Rework", it is the first time I am thinking of quit WARFRAME if my favourite frame is reworked under such attitude while truly weak frames are not touched.

All in all, still a big big thanks to your hard working. May you have a nice day and hope the game would work through these problems eventually.

 

I was looking for a post like that and I agree about everything above. Also as from my own gameplay: I recently started picking Saryn more. She was fun for me and number that I saw in a distance from spores were super satysfing. I didn't used 2 - 1 combo since... I just didn't felt like I have to. I sometime used it to get more damage on enemies. Honestly I had no idea of those weird AFK gameplay or "meleeing" the Molt with Spores on it gives anything. And you know what? I do not care about that. Saryn was fun without those weird special interactions or stuff or anything. She was just a simple frame, simple and amazingly fun!

Recasting her 1st ability was cool cuz you felt like she was dynamic and numbers you saw afterwards were the confirmation of that also your price.

Casting spores on molt was cool idea, gave me a feeling of this cool synergy. "I can compare this ability and this and if I do this I get this - cool!" it gave you tons of playstyle choices!

Honestly... I never used 3rd ability once in my life. I'm not a melee-type-of-person I like shooting and ability spamming. New changes encouraged me to use it and i'm really happy and satysfied from using it. Well weirdly more than spores... I can't spam them, numbers are low no metter of levels honestly... AND IT WAS MY FAVOURITE ABILITY IN THE GAME! I would have enjoyed it If the "Blast" damage from poping them was cool and let them spread but it is just so freaking low!

And now Miasma... well I got to know this ability better, since you changed Saryn from 1 spammer to 4 spammer. Still think we HAVE TO get some kind of stun duration on ability UI... like Volt! Exacly like volt! I like new viral damage on it... but since "you start to appreciate thing you lose" I saw how I miss old damage types and fun. This frame was ripped from any fun.

Hearing new sounds is cool but those can't be fun after 1000 casts of her 4th. I won't be satysfied to spam my 4 and have my 1st as a "ability that was fun once but now I just leave it on enemy I can't kill so they will finish the work"

Spores now has so low damage, it is even whorse from old AFK gameplay! Now if you cant kill particular enemy, you just leave spores since they have unlimited duration and run past!

--------------------

TO SUM UP

I really do not enjoy new rework just from fun state. Honestly you can leave spores with 1 damage per sec, you can give them fire damage, you can make it a impact damage but for the love of god go back to her old Spores. I just beg you. Yes i'm reasy to beg for that. I can't see how you punish AFK players etc. while hurting everyone else! The whole rework is fantastic BUT not spores.

And I'm determined to fight for old Spores! I won't quit, If it takes me to leave a thread about it every day - I will do it! If it takes me to write a petition - I will do it! If it takes me to fly from Europe to America and start finding people that think the same I will do it!

I won't stand here and talk that "I will quit Warframe cuz you did this and that". I'm not this kind of person.

If it takes to fight for Reversing Spores changes I shall fight till my death.

Why? Becouse I won't let anyone punish everyone for mistakes made since first rework and left till this day!

 

I love Warframe and I love this community and especially I love Devs - That's why I'm determined to fight. for. what. I. Love.

[CuteFoxyFox]

On 2018-05-17 at 7:09 PM, Fosuya said:

Suggestions--
I'd love seeing Miasma having a complete work over, skip the push button give effect crap and turn it into this aoe haze aura that just creeps viral proccs and damage on targets within your aura, let it linger in an area you've been and slowly fade out if the Saryn moved away or turned it off/ran out of energy. This could really take advantage of that new shiny particle gfx system that was put in!

Push again to trigger spore explosion, change this to a Hold for 0.5 s to trigger - As a QoL change it would be a HUGE difference on the less motor-functional players, clumsy peeps and the stressed out trigger spammers! 😄

Give the molt some life, it's after all the skin of a pestful, viral almost floral killer - the miasma effect I mentioned earlier could be in play here but at a reduced range and power!
If not that then at least make the movement speed increase act like Volt Speed where you gain some melee attack speed as well!

Give back the possibility to have the spores spread outside of LoS, seriously until you remove half the crummy boxes, enemy outside map spawns and so on it's just gonna be a pain trying to get that spore to be useful again. Forcing non-stop LoS for interaction really just caters to a scenario where tank-meta's that can stand in the face of an enemy and smile like any other masochist would..

Cool ideas! I would love to have mechanic to spread spores. Since i miss old ones...

[Valaska]

16 hours ago, HidesHisFace said:

Did some more testing, this time on grineer under-sea base on mid level enemies.

The spore spread definitely DOESN'T rely on line of sight but it is wonky beyond reason, so I understand why the LOS myth exists. It feels random and inconsistent.

- Toxic lash is now a must for spreading the bloody thing - nice way to force the ability that was borderline useless for ranged builds /sarcasm.

- seriously though, why even have toxic lash as a separate ability if I absolutely MUST use it to spread spores even semi-consistently.

 

Back to the spores spreading - it was spreading through walls... sometimes. I was able to infect 12+ enemies easily, including enemies coming from different sides of the defended area, almost all enemies in the large room... again, sometimes. 

The other time I put a spore in the middle of the large clump of enemies and popped it... only for it to infect two other enemies, while there were 6 or so more within 5 meter radius.

Spores popping seem to be heavily weapon-dependant. So far I had most success with Soma Prime, I still need to check Torid.

Either way, the damage was underwhelming to say the least - it really didn't matter if I cast the spores or not - they didn't really help killing the enemies - the damage buildup was too slow to matter. Enemies were dead before the spores could reach 150 per tick. The best thing spores could do was finishing stragglers.

Exploding spores on the same key as casting it is becoming increasingly annoying. Limit to a single cast feels more artificial and annoying with every game I play.

 

The major problem is... spores do NOT synergize well (as in AT ALL) with your team mates. Most of the time, your own team is a nuisance, they STOP spreading the spores instead of helping it - that is a very bad gameplay mechanic for a multiplayer game...

Well then they completely failed one of the major reasons for this re-work and made her far, far, far more inconsistent. But yeah team mates really annoy the hell out of me now as a Saryn, and I think that's not the goal in a cooperative game experience.5

[Enedora]

Unfortunately, I will probably never play Saryn again.

My favorite thing in the entire game was setting up builds to take advantage of the spore propagating toxin to other enemies as a method of killing enemies. Sniper Saryn was a uniquely powerful build that has been utterly destroyed by these changes. Saryn now gets absolutely nothing out of using a sniper rifle.

Now, she's just another frame that can, and will, use any overpowered weapons they want and it'll be irrelevant to the frame you are using. I took a lot of pride playing without the Tigris Prime, Lenz, Atterax, and the like. I could because the synergies within Saryn's skills made it possible to turn a lot of really niche weapons into something more. And those weapons would turn Saryn into something more. Now, she's just a damage machine irrespective of what you do to achieve that damage. Build range and strength, press 1, watch it cook.

Spores went from one of the more interactive and one of the most powerful enemy debuffs in the game to being the least interactive and one of the most powerful debuffs in the game. The spores changes were not a nerf nor were they a buff. The spore change is an insult to any player who enjoys the game, and nothing more. It was changed from being a complicated spell that defined the entire frame to being a complicated spell that defined the entire frame. They made the damage slower and less exciting initially just to justify having it be braindead in a couple minutes of doing effectively nothing.

And yeah. I know. You can shoot the spores to cause the armor stripping to occur faster. I get it. "Synergy." What that ultimately boils down to, however, is that the enemy you spored was doomed the moment you had spores on it, because, y'know, infinite duration. All that changed was that you decided you'd rather kill that enemy quick. I don't blame you. I'd do the same thing.

That's why this rework is terrible. It's an inaction frame, like the Limbo rework. Sure, you CAN do stuff while the sit-n-spin is cooking your enemies, but you don't need to, and the game doesn't reward you in any real way by doing so. At least when you did Sit-n-spin as Limbo, your bubble would pop if a nullifier got nearby, so you had to do at least rudimentary goaltending. Saryn hits the entire map, and a nullifier within that area isn't going to solve that.

-

Saryn didn't need a buff. Saryn already had very strong niches. If you had removed molt's spore casting, I wouldn't have batted an eye, I'd honestly consider it a justified nerf since she wasn't even uniquely effective within that niche. If you would have given the toxic lash change to pre-22.2.0 Saryn I would have lost it because that would have been insane. Guaranteed Toxin procs and spore popping on any weapon? It would wreck havoc in terms of damage because you could utilize Critical Status toxin procs and melt things, even more assuredly than I managed to in my own Saryn Videos without such an edge (utilizing a Vectis riven to reach 100%crit + 100%status) because you wouldn't need a weapon that could get a high status. All you would need at that point was high critical chance and that potential would be guaranteed.

What's my point? My point certainly isn't "I don't like the new Saryn, waaah." My point is that the Toxic lash change makes more sense on the old Saryn than it does on the new one. With spores as they are, I don't see a reason for Toxic Lash to exist at all. It makes no difference what Saryn has besides Spore because Spore has what is essentially infinitely scaling damage at an comparably microscopic cost. Toxic lash is a fragment of the old Saryn that perfectly shows the dysfunction of the new rework. How much damage your weapons do is wholly irrelevant to 100,000 corrosive damage ticks.

Sure, I've already said this new Toxic Lash on pre-22.2.0 Saryn would be busted. It would be. But at least it'd be busted and fun to play with. Imagine being able to do crazy spore shenanigans, spreading deadly Toxin AOE procs to the entire map... with whatever weapon you wanted to, rather than having to use a specific weapon or a specific build. Wouldn't that be great? I think it would be.

What's happened instead is you can't do spore shenanigans with any weapon whatsoever... and the weapons you bring can be whatever weapon you want, although they're irrelevant to your sit-n-spin spore damage. So that's a shame. And that's why I won't play Saryn, or likely Warframe, anymore. 

[CuteFoxyFox]

Ok so new Saryn looks...

4th - You spam this ability to kill whole rooms

3rd - You use it to deal more damage

2nd - You use it to stay alive and run fast boi

1st - You don't use it. Ok sorry I'm let me put it into other way... *cough*

1st - You put it on enemy that is hard to kill and leave it. No... maybe more like...

1st - You build up some high damage but only for Defence since you have to run. Warframe is a dynamic game you have no time for that so just go back to 4th, or...

1st - Nice my spores deals 1k per tick! But now I have to move to the new objective... eh

 

Just lest me recast spores and not detonate active ones.

Please

[SyBuhr]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Aktriaz said:

Overall, I'm very disappointed with this rework. I really enjoyed Saryn's previous setup, because of her Ability Synergy, and requiring actual human input. Meaning, using all her abilities often enough, and achieving peak performance, as well as having to interact directly to achieve said performance. Harrow is probably the best example of this, and Saryn was a fairly good example, albeit with some flaws (some of which were fixed in this rework, but...).

Many may disagree with me, but I think the scaling damage of Spores was a mistake. It has literally become another map-wide nuke that pretty much works with ZERO player input. Coupled with the addition of spreading on death, this is a recipe for disaster. I personally think that you should only have one; "spreading on death" OR "scaling damage". Both just seem to have removed the need for player interaction. Plus, not being able to manually recast spores really irks me, since I like to dash about, and having to recast spores because the last time I cast it was a room away, and apparently +90% range isn't enough.

How ironic, that Spores interaction with Molt was removes because "it was too campy", and now Spores work best when there's a constant stream of enemies in a stationary position.

Toxic Lash lost it's niche. Spores spread themselves, and Toxic Procs no longer multiply the damage dealt, and there is no more energy gain by popping spores. I never really used Toxic Lash before, because with my setup I didn't need the energy and could spread spores just fine using Zakti, but plenty of other people did. Now it just seems out of place-- not having any significant interactions with other abilities, or playstyle for that matter.

In all honesty, if you were to switch Saryn back to the way she was pre-rework-- keeping the Molt invincibility phase (mostly because you never did fix Regenerative Molt not healing after Molt dies...), I would be more than happy. But I don't think that's going to happen.

You are certainly not going to ignore the sheer broken-ness of Spores, I am certain of that.

I want to play your game, not sit in a corner and watch EXP and damage numbers fill my screen while I eat a sandwich.

 

@Aktriaz I am disappointed as well (I think that is a unanimous feeling, at this point).

I respectfully disagree on a few of your points. I never have achieved map-wide nuke-age with her spores, due to their erratic behavior. I think the scaling corrosive damage was a huge boost to Saryn players who play in PUGs, who may not have the coordination a true-squad or clan would have. That said, that's also theoretical currently, because I don't think I've ever seen anyone in the last 24 hours actually achieve this "sit-and-watch-the-spore-fireworks" god-hood. In-fact, I find myself stressed over whether I can get it to achieve anything above ~500 damage. But you are right, it does currently work "optimally" when you are sitting idly, and letting enemies flow in. I don't know if that was intended, or if that is due to any bugs/glitches/issues with the rework, but it does work like that.

Another point I would like to make is that, her Spores being corrosive lends itself more to the end-game playstyle (which is obviously bamboozled now, due to everything said above, regarding the nature of a rework). Her viral spores were great, but compare that to every (almost) other warframe's first ability, and I think we both can agree, that it might have been a little too much. Some exceptions to this might be Atlas, but I digress; Her viral was too potent in every stage of the game. In fact, I don't think I ever used anything other than her first, second, or third abilities during her 2.0 time, simply because her fourth power didn't offer the same corrosive power that her first ability now has. It made it so that, by the end of the mission, I had the most DPS, the most Kills, and many players did D/C out of PUGs because of how boring it was (and this wasn't even the campy-style of play we would have sen with molt). And that was all pretty frequent.

I feel like her Toxic Lash power hasn't lost its "niche", in-fact I turn to it when I definitely want spores to spread (if they do, that is). The quality of life changes it got to be used with all weapons makes it more useful now than ever before.

All in all, I feel more stressed playing her than I do enjoying her (the general population's consensus thus far, from what I have read). I definitely do not sit idly for my spores to "maybe" spread, which is good because it achieves something DE wants, but for the wrong reasons (bugs/glitches/etc).

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Morthal said:

So I really miss the unique synergy that Saryn used to bring to a squad. No matter who brought a corrosive projection, at least if a Saryn was present, you could count on nearly all enemies having 50% HP debuff. It was the only reason I took Saryn into any missions, knowing that I was going to be a support role. I've never looked at Saryn as a damage dealing/ nuke warframe but now I'm able to come close.

The current build I'm using is what I feel comes closest to the old Saryn's ability to spread viral across a large area. Because most of the other skills aside from Miasma, are trashy right now, it's a spam 4 nuke build with a low cost, great for ESO/Kuva/Exterminate...whatever you like. This is really boring however, not that prework build was more exciting. Still using spin2win for most enemies because it's the easiest way to survive still. Molt is great, speed buff much needed addition since base speed of 1.00 feelsbad. Saryn has no room for Rush or even Augments to me. I'd rather have the enemies be dead/CC'd than pretend I'm a tank. Anyway, below is my current viral nuke build, it's pretty much useless for all else but to support your squadmates, IF the enemies don't die first ( lower to mid levels that is ). 

 

Spoiler

21 minutes ago, Enedora said:

-SNIPPED-
What's my point? My point certainly isn't "I don't like the new Saryn, waaah." My point is that the Toxic lash change makes more sense on the old Saryn than it does on the new one. With spores as they are, I don't see a reason for Toxic Lash to exist at all. It makes no difference what Saryn has besides Spore because Spore has what is essentially infinitely scaling damage at an comparably microscopic cost. Toxic lash is a fragment of the old Saryn that perfectly shows the dysfunction of the new rework. How much damage your weapons do is wholly irrelevant to 100,000 corrosive damage ticks.

Sure, I've already said this new Toxic Lash on pre-22.2.0 Saryn would be busted. It would be. But at least it'd be busted and fun to play with. Imagine being able to do crazy spore shenanigans, spreading deadly Toxin AOE procs to the entire map... with whatever weapon you wanted to, rather than having to use a specific weapon or a specific build. Wouldn't that be great? I think it would be.

What's happened instead is you can't do spore shenanigans with any weapon whatsoever... and the weapons you bring can be whatever weapon you want, although they're irrelevant to your sit-n-spin spore damage. So that's a shame. And that's why I won't play Saryn, or likely Warframe, anymore. 

 

@Morthal Saryn offers a new synergy. You can still take that build for the Corrosive procs on spore though, so you really aren't missing much, in fact you are probably building her just as I did when she was 2.0, and that build also carries over well in 3.0 now. Spore is still pretty strong (when it wants to be), even at that 70% power strength. I don't know why you think it is useless for anything other than her Miasma, in that regard. Molt will still offer you everything, and you'd primarily use toxic-lash for spreading the spores to up the corrosive damage and remove armor, allowing the viral to do more. So yea, pretty much that build for anything will do well, especially once they iron out some of the issues. That build isn't just specific to Miasma, you can throw your spores (and be effective with it, when they don't bug out), your molt will still be viable, and your lash will still be effective for spreading (When it wants to). 

@Enedora that's all theory-crafting. You will most likely never see those spores hit 100,000 damage in actual gameplay, either due to squad-mates killing too fast, or the erratic nature of the spore-spreads, or even enemy spawn rates. I feel that toxic lash is almost a requirement to get them to spread, and that is still iffy at best. Toxic lash has, and will likely always be, a utility to pop all the spores on a hit-target, and the fact you can do that with any weapon, primary, secondary, or melee is a great quality-of-life change that many people wanted. Before, Toxic-Lash forced you to use a massive-ranged based melee, and macro your way through. Now you don't need to do that, you can if you still want to, but you can now have similar effects (or even better ones) with AOE weapons (Lenz and torid come to mind). You will find yourself spamming that "microscopic" cost ability a lot, when you can (and if you can), and using toxic lash more now to help them spread (either from the nature of the rework, or just for efficiency). I don't think I ever saw anyone use Toxic lash on Saryn 2.0, and I see it a lot more now after the QoL change has been made, mainly because Viral-Proc-Spores were pretty good.

Edited May 19, 2018 by SyBuhr
Re-formatting; Added Spoilers to quotes, to shorten the post a bit. Added Proper "@"s

[Enedora]

14 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

@Enedora, that's all theory-crafting. You will most likely never see those spores hit 100,000 damage in actual gameplay, either due to squad-mates killing too fast, or the erratic nature of the spore-spreads, or even enemy spawn rates. I feel that toxic lash is almost a requirement to get them to spread, and that is still iffy at best. Toxic lash has, and will likely always be, a utility to pop all the spores on a hit-target, and the fact you can do that with any weapon, primary, secondary, or melee is a great quality-of-life change that many people wanted. Before, Toxic-Lash forced you to use a massive-ranged based melee, and macro your way through. Now you don't need to do that, you can if you still want to, but you can now have similar effects (or even better ones) with AOE weapons (Lenz and torid come to mind). You will find yourself spamming that "microscopic" cost ability a lot, when you can (and if you can), and using toxic lash more now to help them spread (either from the nature of the rework, or just for efficiency). I don't think I ever saw anyone use Toxic lash on Saryn 2.0, and I see it a lot more now after the QoL change has been made, mainly because Viral-Proc-Spores were pretty good.

No, it's not theory-crafting. If you watched a single one of the videos I have linked, you'd know I'm making the statement as a fact that if it doesn't get to that point it's unquestionably a nerf to Saryn because Saryn could, with the right build and setup, instantly set up lethal damage on a hoard of level 120 high-threat enemies and further, quickly dispose of them, no theorycrafting necessary.

If you would have given Saryn's toxic lash as-is to Saryn's previous iteration, this would be a possible reality for any weapon, not just a weapon well suited for the job (though certainly, it would help to have a well suited weapon) if it'd be available to it. Now, having toxic lash is just a tool to spread spores faster. That's a pretty lame and shallow synergy if my opinion is to be asked on the subject.  My opinion on the subject is that the frame now completely at the mercy of spawn rates and nothing the frame does directly affects the success of the frame besides putting the spore down, because as soon as a target is spored, they are dead unless you make the mistake of pressing 1 and releasing them from scaling DOT damage. The only decision you make as a player is deciding whether or not you want to kill them earlier or save yourself the bullets.

Tell me I'm wrong. Show me an enemy that survives the full "infinite" duration of Saryn's Spore. If you can't, I'm not wrong, and then the only thing this version of Saryn has to do is find a way to stay out of sight and/or alive infinitely and the frame would be the perfect sit-n-spin.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Enedora

[Purity]

7 hours ago, AlanW001 said:

Spores don.t work well for me at all. I cannot get them to spread much if any. I have the following issues.

1. Targeting enemies to attach spores is tedious and hard to make happen. The target is had to target since there is no zoom  and without zoom it is hard to make it work unless you try several times.

2. The spores ALL are destroyed once you hit "one" again, This should spread spores but it does not seem to happen. I hardly get any indication that anything is attaching to any other enemy. Might be the really short range of spread in an real mission. It did not seem to work very fast even in a closely packed demo shown by DE

3,  I Do far better using corrosive projection then what I get using spores now, no matter what I do. 

4.  Using spores only gets me killed since now you are standing still taking damage while you try to make spores attach to enemies and spread. It seems as if the spores do not spread and very poorly until you kill the enemy or press 1 again. They are simply ineffective in real missions. Even when I get a single enemy with a spore and shoot him in a group of close enemies there is little or no spread. I barely get anything more than five infected on my HUD

Unless I figure this out. Saryn is useless and ineffective now and is only mastery rank fodder.  I can survive and kill better with weapons in any other frame. I can see no way that this frame can survive any 50+ enemy level mission now. 

RIP Saryn Prime

How does one not survive in any 50+ missions with saryn p? Its all about the builds mang. Though spores has some issues, overall shes pretty okay, you just need to pay more attention which isnt too hard. And her 2 takes off a lot of heat tbh so surviving sorties shouldnt br a problem.

[SyBuhr]

12 minutes ago, Enedora said:

No, it's not theory-crafting. If you watched a single one of the videos I have linked, you'd know I'm making the statement as a fact that if it doesn't get to that point it's unquestionably a nerf to Saryn because Saryn could, with the right build and setup, instantly set up lethal damage on a hoard of level 120 high-threat enemies and further, quickly dispose of them, no theorycrafting necessary.

If you would have given Saryn's toxic lash as-is to Saryn's previous iteration, this would be a possible reality for any weapon, not just a weapon well suited for the job (though certainly, it would help to have a well suited weapon) if it'd be available to it. Now, having toxic lash is just a tool to spread spores faster. That's a pretty lame and shallow synergy if my opinion is to be asked on the subject.  My opinion on the subject is that the frame now completely at the mercy of spawn rates and nothing the frame does directly affects the success of the frame besides putting the spore down, because as soon as a target is spored, they are dead unless you make the mistake of pressing 1 and releasing them from scaling DOT damage. The only decision you make as a player is deciding whether or not you want to kill them earlier or save yourself the bullets.

You mean the video where you are in the simulacrum in your post? Because that's what I am referring to. Anything in the Simulacrum is pretty much theory-crafting, because it isn't representative of the actual game at that point. Also, that video is from Feb.27, 2018, so I do apologize on that front ; I thought it was more recent.

• I don't know if we disagree on whether or not it is a "nerf". (See: "... if it doesn't get to that point it's unquestionably a nerf to Saryn because Saryn could...")

Yes, we both agree on this front, the "give-current-Lash-to-2.0-saryn". But Toxic lash's only change was to be used on all weapons so, I am unsure how the direction of  it being a "tool to spread spores faster" changed from 2.0 to 3.0. As I see it, it has still remained the same, with the added bonus of being useful on all weapons, in regards to this.

• "My opinion on the subject is that the frame now completely at the mercy of spawn rates and nothing the frame does directly affects the success of the frame besides putting the spore down, because as soon as a target is spored, they are dead unless you make the mistake of pressing 1 and releasing them from scaling DOT damage."

You are absolutely correct. However, given the current nature of how spore works (at least with my 24 hour experience of testing her again), it isn't just the spawn rates, but the way spores spread themselves. Currently, I need to use toxic lash to get them to last up until ~500 damage. 

So yes, you are right in that sense, you could see this as a "nerf", because they won't hit that 100,000 damage mark realistically. However, whether that is intended or not is debatable currently.

EDIT: This is what I was referring to in regards to theory-crafting, by-the-way:

• "My point is that the Toxic lash change makes more sense on the old Saryn than it does on the new one. With spores as they are, I don't see a reason for Toxic Lash to exist at all. It makes no difference what Saryn has besides Spore because Spore has what is essentially infinitely scaling damage at an comparably microscopic cost. Toxic lash is a fragment of the old Saryn that perfectly shows the dysfunction of the new rework. How much damage your weapons do is wholly irrelevant to 100,000 corrosive damage ticks."

As I stated, you will  most likely NEVER hit those 100,000 corrosive damage ticks, so yes, there is reason to use that third ability ; to make the spores last as long as possible. Unless you utterly sit still, in a spot where you cannot be harmed, and contribute nothing else to the game, you will not see this happen.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by SyBuhr
Re-adjusted, added Statement I was referring to in theory-crafting.

[Vengerz]

Saryn rework is great. I've played her for 10+ hours since the rework and enjoy her a lot. I think the only thing I would change is the spore detonation, honestly it would be more useful if we could simply recast spores instead. I can't really think of any time you would want to detonate spores over recasting them. That said there is some gameplay in choosing the right spore target right now and recast on demand might take that planning away. Maybe if recast is possible the spore ability itself should have a short cooldown (6-8 seconds).

[SyBuhr]

2 minutes ago, Vengerz said:

Saryn rework is great. I've played her for 10+ hours since the rework and enjoy her a lot. I think the only thing I would change is the spore detonation, honestly it would be more useful if we could simply recast spores instead. I can't really think of any time you would want to detonate spores over recasting them. That said there is some gameplay in choosing the right spore target right now and recast on demand might take that planning away. Maybe if recast is possible the spore ability itself should have a short cooldown (6-8 seconds).

I really think this idea is great. 6-8 seconds is quite a while though. As it stands, Spore detonation is useless for long-term, which is the entire nature of her spores now.

However, I think the spore spam is something that does need to be addressed in some way, and I think having 3 stacks of castable spores, each on separate cooldown timers at 6-8 seconds would be a good middle ground. This would allow players in more mobile-missions to keep that damage scaling, where-as now she is pretty much a sit-and-wait frame, which really doesn't fix the over-arching issue she faced before (if she had one, which is all perspective, but I digress).

[Purity]

I just hope that spores gets another fix and has the ideas that players layed out here incorporated. Some of these are plain genius. Personally im split between saryn being good so for noe the rework is just a rework to me. Not a buff or nerf. However because of her spore issues its leaning towards a nerf, in which i hope it is fixed.

Edit: I mean I still dont have too many qualms with it for sorties and endless kuvas and stuff like that. Might be because of suped up phage and sarpa. Overall I dont have too many complains besides that. Oh and again with fixing the limited ability to not recast, and maybe an ability to switch between spore porc types. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Jebbers

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Enedora:

Unfortunately, I will probably never play Saryn again.

My favorite thing in the entire game was setting up builds to take advantage of the spore propagating toxin to other enemies as a method of killing enemies. Sniper Saryn was a uniquely powerful build that has been utterly destroyed by these changes. Saryn now gets absolutely nothing out of using a sniper rifle.
 

 

You're aware that the spread toxin in this video has 2-3 digids at best right? The one thing that killed them at all was you shooting them twice with gas.

You can literally do the same now. Only that you'll recieve both, armor and life dbuffs from her kit. The fact that gas still makes spores pop even boosts its toxic ticks, rather then just lowering theyr health.

...if exploiting the toxic spread was your sole reason to play her then you really shouldn't have played her at all. That mechanic was abysal.

Edited May 19, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[SyBuhr]

23 minutes ago, Enedora said:

No, it's not theory-crafting. If you watched a single one of the videos I have linked, you'd know I'm making the statement as a fact that if it doesn't get to that point it's unquestionably a nerf to Saryn because Saryn could, with the right build and setup, instantly set up lethal damage on a hoard of level 120 high-threat enemies and further, quickly dispose of them, no theorycrafting necessary.

If you would have given Saryn's toxic lash as-is to Saryn's previous iteration, this would be a possible reality for any weapon, not just a weapon well suited for the job (though certainly, it would help to have a well suited weapon) if it'd be available to it. Now, having toxic lash is just a tool to spread spores faster. That's a pretty lame and shallow synergy if my opinion is to be asked on the subject.  My opinion on the subject is that the frame now completely at the mercy of spawn rates and nothing the frame does directly affects the success of the frame besides putting the spore down, because as soon as a target is spored, they are dead unless you make the mistake of pressing 1 and releasing them from scaling DOT damage. The only decision you make as a player is deciding whether or not you want to kill them earlier or save yourself the bullets.

Tell me I'm wrong. Show me an enemy that survives the full "infinite" duration of Saryn's Spore. If you can't, I'm not wrong, and then the only thing this version of Saryn has to do is find a way to stay out of sight and/or alive infinitely and the frame would be the perfect sit-n-spin.

Spoiler

I think you are being a bit over-zealous on the matter, and are not paying attention to what I am typing.

But yes, you are "wrong" (because that's what you are looking for me to say, right?), but not for the reason you think.

I did roughly 10-12 Taveuni missions (20 minutes each), with a focus on range (because spores "scale infinitely", right?). Sure, the enemy will "Not survive" the "infinite Duration". However, that doesn't mean that the new spore is the "end-all" thing. Often times, enemies will die quicker due to teamates, and you will NOT see those spores spread effectively. So now those 2-3 enemies are dead, with the spores NOT spreading. Congratulations, go cast it again now, and "stay out of sight", starting all over from scratch. You will be the most ineffective team mate in this regard. It would have been the least amount of fun you will have had ever, and you will not play her again. To emphasize this, you could bring a squad-limbo, and just sit, banished for eternity, but you will not be effective at what you are doing, or have any iota of fun in the process. I have not had any "Success" doing it this way, and I am thankful, because it is reminiscent of the campy-style 2.0 Saryn, and I didn't enjoy that either.

Even with close to 250% range, spores are iffy on spreading, on their own or otherwise. Again, her scaling damage revolves around how many spores are active. You want to hit 100,000 Damage? You better pop those spores with something, because you are NOT reaching it any time this year, unless you spread them. And in order to pop them, what are you going to use? Toxic Lash maybe? A weapon? Anything that does DAMAGE? So no, you are not going to hit that damage-cap unless you spread them actively, and in doing so you will be hastening the death of your assumed target. Yes, you could sit there, and wait idly while corrosive damage CRAWLS up to any meaningful damage on anything aside from armor on your 1 target, but you will be there for YEARS on any meaningful content. Let me also reiterate that certain conditions will REMOVE your spores, such as VOID fissures converting enemies. And if you do decide to "spread the spores"? You are now no longer just sitting somewhere, you are actively doing something to achieve that high-end number, and are most likely in an a position to be attacked by enemies.

Again, her spore damage-scaling revolves around ACTIVE spores.

So now you spread them right? Good luck, because they decide how they want to spread, and if you want them to spread effectively, you need to be active and aware of enemy positioning. This is why I believe toxic lash is more useful now; Because now it is a requirement almost to spread them efficiently. If you are not actively doing something, you are not playing her efficiently. Also, with the new Line-Of-Sight patch, you can't just "sit-n-spin" anymore. I think it should become more clear now why toxic-lash on all weapons is pretty nice, right? Torid is pretty nice for some of this, but it is also reflective of the buggy nature of the spores.

TL;DR: Spores scale with amount active, active amount relative to how many you have bursted on an enemy, bursting a spore requires damaging an enemy, damaging enemy kills enemy sooner, enemy position matters to spread spores effectively to hit cap.

See why I said "It's theory-crafting", "You won't hit that damage-cap", etc. ? It's not an attack on you. It is a statement. If you hit that number, don't admit it or tell anyone, because you are doing something right with the new meta, and the moment you mention it, DE will nuke it. (XD)

Again, I am not even sure we are "disagreeing" on any front in that regard. Again, I am not making an attack on you, but based on what I've seen and done, I have reason to believe you will never hit that 100,000 damage cap in a realistic setting without being active. 

 

[SyBuhr]

31 minutes ago, Jebbers said:

I just hope that spores gets another fix and has the ideas that players layed out here incorporated. Some of these are plain genius. Personally im split between saryn being good so for noe the rework is just a rework to me. Not a buff or nerf. However because of her spore issues its leaning towards a nerf, in which i hope it is fixed.

I think her spores need to be re-evaluated on their spread, but yeah. A lot of the players here (who have spent a considerable amount of time on Saryn or otherwise) are pretty great, and many have a lot of awesome ideas.

I don't know if I am in the minority when saying this, but her spores feel hit or miss for me personally. The direction Pablo (I think that's his name, the guy who worked on her) went in was pretty clear, and it is obvious what he was going for, I just think there is something technical happening to the spores that make them so wonky to spread. He really gave a lot of Quality of Life changes to her, so hopefully he will (or the team, IDK lol) patch her up.

[ICA-970326-47]

57 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

I really think this idea is great. 6-8 seconds is quite a while though. As it stands, Spore detonation is useless for long-term, which is the entire nature of her spores now.

However, I think the spore spam is something that does need to be addressed in some way, and I think having 3 stacks of castable spores, each on separate cooldown timers at 6-8 seconds would be a good middle ground. This would allow players in more mobile-missions to keep that damage scaling, where-as now she is pretty much a sit-and-wait frame, which really doesn't fix the over-arching issue she faced before (if she had one, which is all perspective, but I digress).

 

5 hours ago, ICA-970326-47 said:

 

Dear developers, enough talking about mechanics, I'm here to honestly analyse why the new Saryn is not FUN. And give a few suggestions on how to merge new and old Saryn together. While also truly eliminate the 2-1111 spammer and solve the problem that the Miasma is still problematic after rework.

The whole rework brings a massive change in Saryn's playstyle. We need to do different things to get a similar result.

Old Saryn Playstyle:

In low to mid-Lv missions: Cast Spore, hit enemies with weapons modded for toxin or gas proc, and see the chain reaction of spore explosion do AOE damage.

In high Lv missions: Cast Spore to half enemies HP for the entire team, hit enemies with weapons that carefully moded for Slash, Corrosive or etc to kill them. The Toxin procs carried by the spores could do some additional damage.

Reworked Saryn Playstyle:

In low to mid-lv missions: Your spore need too much time to scale, your weapons and teammate would kill enemies efficiently. So you become a 4 spammer.

In high Lv missions: Just cast Spores, carefully take care of the infected enemies by chasing them, not shoot them immediately, to make sure the spore keep scaling and spreading. Then the spore would automatically nuke the entire map without any strategy, weapon interaction or else.

With these comparisons, it's obvious to see that several facts that can bring interest to the player are missing.

1. The effort needed to kill strong enemies is very less. I melee soloed an elite sanctuary onslaught and I got 200 melee kills with 3100 spore kills. So technically I can just sit there and watch enemies dying. Just keep eyes on spore spreading. Sometimes the last enemy infected by spore is at somewhere I can't find. I can do nothing, but when he died, the spore spread and all other new enemies quickly died together. I can still do nothing.

2. The overall skill requirement is drastically reduced. You don't have to mod your weapon for toxin proc to do additional damage, nor use slash proc combine with viral spore to kill high lv enemies. I feel like I'm not playing this game with a brain and thinking how to combine the viral proc and the carried toxin proc with my weapons and teammates, but just a brainless spore-keeper.

3. You are not helping your teammate but eliminating their participation in some ways. Your teammate would have to do nothing but helping you to manage your spore spreading, and watching you sitting there but still get 75% damage of the entire team. This is mainly because corrosive proc is easily replaceable by corrosive projection or good armor stripping weapons such as Torid, Pox, Zenistar, etc. But a sustained viral proc that benefit the entire team and effective on all factions is hard to replace.

The loss of several features also affect the fun that they can bring:

1. Toxin Lash no longer regens 2 energy. The true interest that this feature could bring is more modding potential. It would allow Saryn to self-regen some energy, which means the players would not be limited to Zenurik, Energy Siphon or Rage. Other focus schools would be considerable. Open a mod slot for more modding potential. Also, it would benefit Saryn, especially melee Saryn's survivability drastically. With this energy regen, you can keep channelling melee and utilize Life Strike. Or you can spam Regenerative Molt and leave a mod slot on your melee weapon, allow you to mod you melee with more damage, speed or range, which could be more fun. Finally, with this energy regen, melee Saryn becomes a good choice of energy reduction Sorties. You would have enough energy to use your 1 for debuff, and spam your 2 to keep alive.

As for developers who argued that the reworked Saryn is no longer energy hungry. I would like to ask if they ever play their game. For both new and old Saryn, when fighting tough high lv enemies, the true energy-hungry ability is never her Spore. She needs to constantly cast Regenerative Molt to distract enemies and keep alive. She needs to use the Miasma as emergency CC before entering an enemy crowded tunnel. Spore was always a cheap ability, even for the stupid lazy spammers who don't know how to play Saryn properly but just spam 21111111. In addition, new Saryn is basically a 4 spammer in low lv mission, which is even more energy hungry.

2. Unable to cast spore on Molt. Not all players use it as a mindless spore turret. Also, considering Saryn need to cast Molt very often in the tough face to face battle. Run to enemies----Cast Molt----Evading/Rolling----Put Spore on the Molt.........This is an awesome way to engage in a battle safely, create opens to attack and have become one of my instinct movement. It just makes you feel you are a skilled player and acting like a cool space ninja.

Finally, here is my suggestion on how to merge the new Saryn, infinite scaling damage and the old Saryn together:

Spore:

Basically change it back to what it was. However, remove the viral explosion damage when a spore is popped. Hence the 2-111111 spammer is banned forever since there is no burst damage but pure Viral Debuff. In addition, allow the Spore to carry the Toxin proc again. By combining this with the new Toxin Lash, it could do some not-so-crazy AOE damage and create a more clever, active playstyle.

Then, add in a new mechanic. When the spore is infecting an enemy, a damage number is shown by the new UI meter that would infinitely scaling. The more enemies are infected, the longer the spore is infecting, the damage number scaling faster. Considering the old Spore has an internal CD of spreading to an infected enemy, the scaling speed would not be broken.

This scaling damage number would not affect the viral DOT damage that spore deals during its existing duration. Spore act only as a tool to spread Viral and Toxin proc, while generating this scaling damage number.

The scaling damage number could be used as an additional resource to enhance other abilities, just like Nidus' Mutation Stack.

There are several ways I can think of here:

1. The damage number would be added as additional damage to your next Miasma cast. After this cast, the damage number is refreshed or consumed partially.

This would solve the problem that Miasma is basically untouched after the rework and still not very worthy to use besides as a CC.

If the player wants to deal more damage by Miasma, he needs to play actively to keep more spore infecting more enemies for a longer duration. The player will have an AOE nuke similar to Day Form Equinox's 4. By carefully playing the number, this strong AOE that could deal corrosive damage would be very rewarding but not broken. It can absolutely nuke the map but need time and effort to build the damage up.

2. The damage number would be added as additional damage to the Toxin proc created by Toxin Lash on its next casting(Or some similar enhancing effect). After this cast of Toxin Lash, the scaling damage number is refreshed.

This is just another way to utilize this infinite scaling resource. The player would have to think that if he wants to deal more damage by the Toxin Lash, but have to spend the time to build up damage. Considering how enemy Armor and Hp scales, the Toxin damage type, and Toxin Lash has a limited duration, this would not be a broken ability. The player can let the damage number scale to a very very high level after a long duration, and do some really insane AOE damage since Spores can carry Toxin Proc. But he would only able to do this like 5 minutes once.

3. Etc.....

Molt:

1. Simply allow players to cast Spore on Molt every X second. Considering I suggested to remove the viral burst damage when a Spore is popped, this would actually be unnecessary because the 2-11111 spamming is banned forever.

2. Other changes brought by the rework is welcomed.

Toxin Lash:

1. Brings back the 2 energy regen, but limit it to melee strike. The reason and necessity are given above. It's just a fantastic feature that has a lot of potentials.

2. Other possible changes relate to the Infinite Scaling Mechanic I suggested above.

Miasma:

Cooperating with the new mechanic I suggested above, allow it to be enhanced by the Infinite Scaling Mechanic. And in order to make the enhancement become worthy, change its damage type back to corrosive and allow more ability duration to give it more damage ticks. Possibly, allow it to proc corrosive.

 

All my above suggestions are based on objective analysation centred around "What makes a player feel fun.", while also taking consideration of creating more acting and clever playstyle. Hope my time and suggestions would be helpful and this post would go to developers who are responsible for their players.

 

Some additional chatting:

To be honest, the ignorance of people's feedforward during theory-crafting last weekend is not a good marketing decision. When customers already point out that a change is not necessary or problematic, and it is still problematic after implementation. This exposes a fact that the developers haven't listened to the community and carefully exam the changes that they are going to imply before execution. Which is a bad attitude that really should not exist.

I am a loyal player and understand the importance and pressure of keep generating new content for WARFRAME. But sometimes it's not bad to slow a bit when serious changes are coming. Let a single person doing a broad affecting task such as Saryn rework is hard and would unavoidably cause marketing problem.

I played this game nearly two years and spent a lot of money in it. But the recent stream of developers' attitude shown by Ember and Saryn rework make me feels a bit worry. The reworks haven't really solved problems but create new problems. Not mentioning this boring new Saryn, Ember can still rekt low lv missions but lost her CC potential in high lv missions. Honestly, after this Saryn "Rework", it is the first time I am thinking of quit WARFRAME if my favourite frame is reworked under such attitude while truly weak frames are not touched.

All in all, still a big big thanks to your hard working. May you have a nice day and hope the game would work through these problems eventually.

 

I have another idea here. Simply remove the burst of viral damage occurred when the old Saryn spore is popped. So the spore only acting as a tool to spread viral and toxin proc, with a minor viral dot during its existing duration. Hence the stupid 2-111111 spammer is banned forever since there is no damage.

But the old spore can carry Toxin proc. So it can combine with Toxin Lash to do some not broken AOE, while also create a more active playstyle.

About the infinite scaling mechanic, I have an idea to use it not simply increasing spore DOT, but as an additional resource to enhance her other abilities such as Toxin Lash or Miasma. So that it may turn Miasma to a strong nuke similar to Equinox, which can nuke the map but need time and effort to build up damage.

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by ICA-970326-47

[SyBuhr]

1 minute ago, ICA-970326-47 said:

(EDIT: Removal of other Quotes)

I have another idea here. Simply remove the burst of viral damage occurred when the old Saryn spore is popped. So the spore only acting as a tool to spread viral and toxin proc, with a minor viral dot during its existing duration. Hence the stupid 2-111111 spammer is banned forever since there is no damage.

But the old spore can carry Toxin proc. So it can combine with Toxin Lash to do some not broken AOE, while also create a more active playstyle.

About the infinite scaling mechanic, I have an idea to use it not simply increasing spore DOT, but as an additional resource to enhance her other abilities such as Toxin Lash or Miasma. So that it may turn Miasma to a strong nuke similar to Equinox, which can nuke the map but need time and effort to build up damage.

 

 

I have mixed feelings on her having similar mechanics, because then they all feel conflated in direction. But I could see this as being an alternative to Equinox. I think it should be pointed out, though, that people still wouldn't use that, because why use two-abilities on one frame to nuke a map, when another frame can do similar with just one (and also requires less over-all maintenance to achieve). Right now, spore does act as a "resource" to miasma ; When miasma hits, it pops all spores, dealing double damage, and refreshing the spores, so I think your idea is already implemented, in a vague sense. Theoretically, you could let that damage ramp up eternally, and then pop miasma for double-viral damage, killing enemies quickly. However, achieving that requires attention; you need to be active and spread the spores efficiently to ever hit a meaningful DoT for those spores, and the spores themselves are what is tracked for that double damage bonus on Miasma, from what I can tell. Right now, spreading spores for some of the community is abysmal, and others seem to not face an issue.

[SenorClipClop]

So far I find Saryn tons of fun. There have been some trade-offs, weakening here and strengthening there, but overall the strengths outweigh the weaknesses and have made Saryn better imo.

Spores are interesting. It's a lot more strategic than before and it gives you more benefit to focusing the spread of your spores than before. It makes the gameplay more engaging and rewards your focusing with scaling damage. I've always enjoyed Molt and the straight-up buffs are much appreciated. I wasn't really concerned about Toxic Lash's extension to ranged weapons because I prefer melee Saryn, but given this additon and the change to how Spores work, I'm gonna try her out as a ranged frame now as well. Toxic Lash's Damage Reduction on block was nerfed but she got a pretty meaty Armor buff, which is overall defensive buff for little tradeoff from TL. Miasma feels a lot better to me. It doesn't discharge Spores (and since Spores are infinite-Duration), so I feel more freedom in using Miasma. It works both at the beginning or the end of an ability combo now, and it feels way nicer because of this.

Ultimately, Saryn feels a little more intuitive and flexible in her gameplay, and the built-in minigame of Spore spreading feels more active and fun to me. Really nice update.

[Purity]

See this is good progress. People adding to other ideas, making more complexive goals for saryn. Pablo has a lot to take from here, and I cant wait to see the outcome

[SenorClipClop]

12 minutes ago, bbeeaann said:

They have taken her best ability away from her. You want to hinder players from spreading spores with molt at range? Fine remove molt spores, but don't take her ability away to cast spores around the map to keep her frame contained.

Well on that first part, I know some people enjoyed it, but I found Molt/Spore spam as boring as a Facebook game. I can't really make any other comments about it because I used it maybe twice ever.

In terms of making Spores spread gradually rather than being able to spam it, like I said, it's gonna take some getting used to. While it does mean she's not going to be able to spam 1 around for top damage, I don't mind because Spores now have way more damage potential than they used to. You just have to put effort into it. I'm a supporter of the idea that the most effective strategies should require more effort/skill than the easy strats, so I'm okay with this.

It's frustrating to have your Spores go down when you or your team kills everything fast, but in those cases I think of it as "well, you never needed Spores in that situation". I equate it to Harrow's Thurible -- if enemies are dying too fast for you to grant Energy with Thurible, that extra Energy was never needed. Same with Spores, but in this case it's damage. Saryn works a little different now, and until I figure out her new ins-and-outs, that's all from me for now.

Edited May 19, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[SenorClipClop]

15 minutes ago, bbeeaann said:

  I literally start my spore, stand there with 5-8 enemies running at me, and try to get an angle on the tagged target to kill it so it will spread to the other targets that I will kill with one shot from any of my weapons.

Sounds like your gameplay strategy is perfect for dealing with both the old and new version of Spores.

15 minutes ago, bbeeaann said:

 And what happens while I'm trying to set my spores up to spread? Another player comes along and kills the target, so I have to start all over again. This ends my spores ability to go anywhere, and makes me want to punch babies.

In missions where you're having this trouble, what level are the enemies?