[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD

[ArcusVeles]

If Pablo wants to make Spores better for normal play but not as strong in ESO, then increasing the base damage and spread range/ease and lowering the rate at which it ticks up its damage is probably what I would ask for.  Maybe adding the possibility for Spores to cling to Molt if they're going to run out of targets so you can still keep them going even if they spread poorly, too.

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

Remove the scaling dmg, keep the status ticks and give use back toxin dots being transferred via spores...even tho i'd just wish to have the old spores back as well as miasma with a % or armor stripped on each tick like oberon's 4th ( 2 casts with average pwr to remove 100% armor )

saryn only needed tweaks to her 2nd ( eventually keep the option that we can't cast spores on molt ) and 3rd, and eventually scaling dmg on her 4th ( based on highest enemy health % ) or armor stripping capabilities ( reckoning treatement )

I've spent countless of hours with saryn and i just hate the scaling dmg, it's boring, it's OP in ESO and hella redundant in anything else,and i hate this cumbersome spreading mechanic. yes i can keep them going alot, doesn't mean that i like how spores are now just cus i got used to keep those cancerous spores going over and over without hiding in some god forsaken corner and have them do all the work.

#give us old spores back

Edited May 20, 2018 by arm4geddon-117

[SyBuhr]

18 hours ago, Helm said:

For all the people that like the new saryn spores

Incoming ember-esque nerf

 

7 hours ago, zazo55 said:

 Its easier to nerf saryn than make other stuff out of EOS better. DE logic. 

Spoiler Contains a huge-list of Notable Suggestions, Positive Changes, and some QOL changes that have been suggested in the thread. It also has a short paragraph on why we should be optimistic in regards to this.

Spoiler

I doubt the team (or Pablo, for that matter) have intentions to Nerf Saryn. Given the nature of this rework thus far, her entire kit has been upgraded. Many of the players who are used to old saryn, myself included (from 2.0 days), feel that her Spores are not consistent enough in the majority of the game's content, and that so far has been the main driving issue, from what I have read. This doesn't mean that Saryn can't be nerfed, or she will be, or the opposite of those for that matter, but it should also give insight on the other aspects the community has stated in this thread.

Hopefully, the team (or Pablo) will push out some of the Quality of Life Changes to help these issues:

• Spores being re-evaluated for their recast/detonation aspects. As they stand, Spores are only efficient and fun to use in mission(s) with incredibly high spawn rates.
• Spores spreading more consistently, especially in mobile missions.
• Spores remaining Active on enemies that become affected by void-fissures (as it stands now, Void Fissures that transform Spore'd enemies will Cure them of their spores).

Some positive things to reflect on with this rework:

• Saryn's Molt has an Invincibility duration, similar to Frost's Globe, and also grants a speed Boost. Many players craved this, as a sort of quick-fix to the Regenerative Molt issue, where the Augment Mod's buff only lasted as long as the Molt did.
• Saryn's Toxic Lash works with all weapons in her arsenal, not just melee. This means you don't have to face-tank anymore to have super-effective spore spreading.
• Her Miasma has received a buff to it's range, which means more enemies affected over-all.

Some Notable Ideas players have mentioned/suggested in this Thread (not necessarily required changes to make her better):

• Making her Miasma a toggle-able ability, that creates a lingering cloud. (Mentioned in this thread by someone somewhere around ~pg.19-21)
  • I personally like this one, as it would give her a bit more mobility, and remove the spam-4 mentality. Having enemies recoil around you from the smell would also be hilarious. 
• Undoing the change in damage types for her Spores and her Miasma.

I am sure I might have missed a few cool ideas in this mega-thread. A lot of the players within the forums have been pushing out awesome ideas, and I feel that DE has a lot to work with in regards to that. This doesn't mean that, if there is something you don't like, you should "let sleeping dogs lie", but if they push out a change that affects the frame poorly, we should always strive to mention it in a way that offers something to rectify the issue. Just saying there is an issue, without offering a fix does little more than address the elephant in the room; Yes, you should address it, but we should also offer something in return to make that "elephant" go away, otherwise you offer nothing but an alert. As a community, we have the luxury of having a lot of great-minded people in different aspects.

TL;DR

Just keep posted on her (especially if she is your favorite frame), and make sure that whatever changes get rolled out, you play with them for a while. You could always be pleasantly surprised at what they throw at you unexpectedly.

[hexacypher]

After having played with this rework of Saryn for a while, I have to say again why did DE touch and proceed to screw up what was already a unique and perfectly good Frame?

This New Coke version of Saryn is a chore to use, clunky as heck, boring and even less intuitive than the previous Saryn Classic. DE did succeed in getting me to use her 3rd and 4th more because now her 1st and 2nd seem broken and useless. Sometimes, the 1st is actually broken and gets stuck for the rest of mission. She's definitely become a press 4 to win Frame...and we got a lot of those already as is.

Please just bring back Saryn Classic and how about actually listening to players and fix Ember, Wukong, etc or rather tweak and iterate on them instead of totally killing their flow and style.

My suggestion would be:

• Return Spores to how they worked before and with original damage type, get rid of the GUI indicator as it's useless in this iteration.
• Return Molt to how it worked before, keep the useless Speed and laughable Invincibility if you guys want.
• Keep Toxic Lash how it is now, but bring back the passive energy recharge.
• Change Miasma into a Corrosive Cloud that lingers.

 

Reading some of the comments on this thread, I don't get the Molt Spore Turret hate? It was a great option to have, even if you didn't need to use it. Why lose a potential play-style when we didn't have to?

Edited May 20, 2018 by hexacypher

[Top_Kekkonen]

Please just revert her if you find a need to nerf her current form. She was fine as a debuff frame.

 

[Kaerd]

Earlier in this thread I noted that once Saryn users got the hang of her, she was going to be incredibly broken. Turns out I wasn't far off. In high level missions with large enemy densities (long duration survivals, ESO, etc.), her playstyle becomes even more set and forget than before. Unfortunately, lower level missions pretty much require you to run 40% power, and even this is too strong in some cases. 

I wanted to play around some more with the changes before posting what I would like to see changed, and here is what I think.

Spores and Molt

I can't really separate these as they go hand in hand when it comes to efficient spore propagation. I can understand trying to get rid of the spore turret play style, but at the end of the day, this was the most efficient way of evenly spreading spores to the nearest targets. I think that the spore turret playstyle can be mitigated, while allowing Saryn to efficiently place her spores. Previously, spores popped on Molt would not carry toxin proc, but this wasn't enough to stop the spore turrets. The ability to reach incredible infection ranges with spores through Molt during an initial mission entry overcame any negatives. 

A big negative to Spores is that if an enemy dies with spores on it, the infection range is cut in half. With gas/toxin no longer adding a tick to spores, this should be removed. It should instead be added to spores popped on Molt. That way, you can get a nice spread going, but at a shorter range. Additionally increase spore energy cost when cast on Molt (it used to cost half energy, make it double energy cost now?), and make spores cast on Molt require points from your damage stacks to cast (25%? 50%? not sure what would be acceptable here) sort of like how Nidus uses his stacks for some abilities. 

Proposed Change: Allow Saryn to cast Spores on Molt, while keeping damage counter from completely resetting, with the counter decaying if no enemies are infected. Use spore damage counter + energy as source for spore casting on Molt. Remove infection range penalty on enemy death, and transfer it to spore spread range when used on Molt. 

I feel this would allow Saryn a lot of flexibility and ability to spread spores, but keep its spammability down. It would also help with teammates destroying enemies very fast as opposed to popping the spores, which really dampens the spore spreading due to the death spread penalty. 

I won't discuss other things such as the damage types being swapped between Spores and Miasma, how Toxic Lash works, or other aspects of these skills as I want to concentrate on making Saryn less clunky to use. Once spores can be well managed, I'll put in my thoughts on what else can change. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Kaerd

[Morthal]

Remove spores entirely. Create a new skill in it's place. Use Miasma for % of armor reduced AND inflicts ramping viral damage, either duration or unlimited same range values as current. Unable to think of a new spore skill, damage type stays corrosive on a short timer, that once ends, changes to gas, forming a 10m cloud at lvl 30 ( improved by mods ) which linger and cause more spores to propagate on enemies who pass through the cloud or were in patient zero's radius.

🤔That's just some crap I'm thinking aloud.

[Olianu]

There are times when I'm pleased to be wrong and times where I hate/dread when I'm right.  This is one of those I hate it when I'm right moment..  I tried using Saryn, but it feels far less natural compared to her old version.  Yes the things you did are a huge buff, mostly, but the exact thing I spoke about in the previous thread is the exact issue I have.  Losing Energy Gain on Toxic Lash.

I repeat myself from the past forum pre-work:  Her losing energy gain on Toxic Lash is a detriment more than it is a boon now.  It is forcing me to look for trinity, harrow, energy pads and Zenurik when pre-update all I had to do was spore, toxic lash, and use the extra 2 energy in conjunction with rage to gain energy at a fast and efficient enough rate that I could be self-sustaining.  It should have stayed, even if it was like 1 energy for primary/secondary and 2 energy per melee.  I am still going to try and work with it, but from what I've seen in game so far is that I'm actually burning through more energy just to hope and pray I can keep the spores alive long enough so that they can spread to other enemies and it feels less of an "optional" and more of a mandate that I have to run over 200% range just to use it reliably.

There is little more I can tack on to this statement outside of the following.  With all the positive changes you made, this one, seemingly nanoscopic detail from what I have experienced so far is a handicap and it has forced saryn into line with other non-support warframes, and not in a good way.

[-ODIN-Charizard_Prime]

Saryn's concept with this rework is great in my honest opinion. Moved her away from being a debuffer to a more DPS oriented frame, but with her current iteration comes some issues.

Her damage is either too strong or too weak and only thrives in niche scenarios, that being enemies in mass numbers of higher levels: ESO and higher level missions like Survival.

The idea with spore was the damage would ramp up over time was made to incentivize players to spread spores, but spores either ramped up too fast and/or killed enemies before they could spread. Not to mention that due how spawns in most missions work and enemy population, it was difficult to even spread spores in most situations.

An idea I had was that spore damage would stack up every time you popped a spore and that spores stopped dealing damage to health at either 100 or 10% of the enemies HP (which ever value was higher), this way lower tier enemies wouldn't die too fast to spores allowing you to spread them more effectively, as well as require you to actually work for ramping up the damage.

Another issue I found was that detonating spores had little value, has dealing 100% bonus damage of current damage ticks, was equivalent to letting the spores last 2 extra seconds. i understand that you wanted to limit the spore spread by limiting Saryn to casting spore once, but the incentive to detonating spores didn't outweigh letting spores continue and searching for the target with the last spore (not very fun might I add, in doing so). Detonation damage should be increased, as well as let the spore stacks decay when no spores are active or something would also be good, to counter the fact with my idea ramping up spore damage would be harder than it is now.

[NezuHimeSama]

So spore spread mechanics are definitely broken. I just had an enemy dying on the other side of the map infect enemies in the extraction tile. No way they were any less than 300m away.

Also, it seems various enemy states can prevent spores from being cast and remove all spores from the enemy without any feedback, including being corrupted, and certain stagger animations.

Still seeing spores not spreading to nearby enemies but hitting further enemies.

 

I think we need to return to popping a spore causing it to explode once per target, causing the spore to reset to the initial cast state before it grows(so it pops, and then grows back, unable to be popped until it's grown in again), but with an explosion that ignores other spores and does corrosive, viral, or toxin(yes pls) damage with no proc chance and a 100% add spore chance.

The explosion consistently spread spores without issue before, aside from the fact that it would chain it's self across the map because of action ordering being completely broken. This would be solved by the sporesplosion not interacting with other spores, would improve spore's poor initial damage scaling, making it more useful for short term use, and the long-term damage scaling could be reduced to compensate and prevent spore from becoming op, which would also serve to reduce it's imbalanced scaling in onslaught.

Personally, I like the idea of dealing base 25 toxin, but base 40 viral or corrosive would be fine too.

Also, I think Spore range should probably be increased a bit, or maybe mirror half the cast range sourced from Saryn on manual/toxic lash pop so that spores can be spread manually across larger maps.

Edited May 21, 2018 by NezuHimeSama

[Camberwell]

I think it was [DE]Rebecca who once said "theres nothing like seeing numbers popping up all over the map as you spread your spores"

so what they did, was give us the opposite of that 🙂

edit: allthough i do enjoy putting spores onto an enemy popping one and seeing 20 enemies infected, then the numbers pop up

the number of affected enemies goes down with each death until 0 and thats it, you do it again

to spread spores accross a map requires a very unlikely set of events. yeah i can put spores onto an enemy 100m away, but he can only spread to enemies 20 meters away, spores are more a localised thing now, which isnt all that bad i guess

I'd like to be able to press 1 again to put more spores onto a different enemy but instead it just detonates all curent spores which i'm not too keen on, and also going out of bounds seems to destroy all spores aswell, which seems odd to me

Edited May 21, 2018 by Camberwell

[Naqel]

Just a read-through of the thread has me convinced the rework is a mess and a failure.

[Remiasta]

1. Molt

This ability can decoy within skill range and protected Saryn from enemy's bullets. But now Molt can't block any enemy attack. Just Pass through!

 

2. Miasma

Q: Does Miasma pop Spores when cast? 
A: It does not! It will deal double damage on enemies inflicted with Spores, but Spores will continue on as usual regardless. 

Can not deal double damage by Spores!

Edited May 21, 2018 by Remiasta
Fixed wrong words.

[Camberwell]

well at the end of the day, you can't please all of the people all of the time

you can only please some of the people, some of the time

 

[Ceteruler]

Two concerns that have stood out to me the most are the request to bring back transfer of toxin damage through Spores and the frustration with Spores infections dying out before the player felt it was fair/worth the investment.

10 hours ago, -ODIN-Charizard_Prime said:

Her damage is either too strong or too weak and only thrives in niche scenarios, that being enemies in mass numbers of higher levels: ESO and higher level missions like Survival.

The idea with spore was the damage would ramp up over time was made to incentivize players to spread spores, but spores either ramped up too fast and/or killed enemies before they could spread. Not to mention that due how spawns in most missions work and enemy population, it was difficult to even spread spores in most situations.

 

On 2018-05-18 at 5:04 PM, Nurmetya said:

Spores can be useful.....so long as there are a lot of enemies clustered together on the screen and no one else kills them, cause they don't spread if a another player kills them or anything else kills a spored target. So outside of Solo this ability is now a literal Slot Machine, will it work? Or will it die off before it can really do anything? so far in my experiences...it dies off before it can do anything simply due to the new spread mechanics and lack of ability to recast it again with out detonating it. I am not impressed with it so far.

 

On 2018-05-17 at 9:59 PM, kazeyama said:

Either superior AOE abilities kill everything before you can spread any spores or enemies just die too quickly even at high levels for them to ramp up. Also getting completely reset instead of a decay between killing each group of enemies is pretty punishing.

 

On 2018-05-18 at 8:14 AM, Showerwalker said:

AI in this game is stupid (or too 'smart' in this case perhaps.. ) if u cast on 1 enemy and he decides to turn his back and just leaves his team or never move up from his cover, u need to detonate it and do it again, and if the target dies too quickly the dmg never get to spread beyond 2 or 3 before they have the chance to bunch up (happens very very frequently in solo), making higher than average range not rewarding but a necessity.

 

On 2018-05-18 at 4:01 AM, HidesHisFace said:

Either way, the damage was underwhelming to say the least - it really didn't matter if I cast the spores or not - they didn't really help killing the enemies - the damage buildup was too slow to matter. Enemies were dead before the spores could reach 150 per tick. The best thing spores could do was finishing stragglers.

For the sake of further stirring the thought pot, I wonder if these two concerns can be linked. Allowing a player to transfer damage from toxin procs through Spores allowed them some control over how much killing power the ability possessed.

[Naneel]

Make the spores also spread to yourself, no damage on you, so you can take the accumulated damage with you. The damage should decrease over time when your spores have no one infected, beside you. (5%/s or a fixed amount ) Additionaly it could cost mana to keep the spore alive (1/s)

[Cibyllae]

 

[Huyhn]

Please look into toxic lash and weapons/mods that can cause self-damage(such as the lenz), having toxin being proc on one-self isn't great.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

1 minute ago, Huyhn said:

Please look into toxic lash and weapons/mods that can cause self-damage(such as the lenz), having toxin being proc on one-self isn't great.

Molt the f**k outta there xD

[Huyhn]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Molt the f**k outta there xD

Toxic Lash is non-toggle ability, this locks saryn out of using certain playstyles such as concealed explosives because of her own ability. Your solution only causes Saryn to expend 50 energy repeatedly just to avoid dying to what essentially is caused by your own ability, which you do need to use to pop her spores like old Saryn or take your time to aim at randomly placed spores on enemies or kill the enemy(which can be a detriment given you need a target to continuously spread spores).

Edited May 21, 2018 by Huyhn

[SyBuhr]

12 hours ago, Naqel said:

Just a read-through of the thread has me convinced the rework is a mess and a failure.

Only real concern with the re-work is the Spores. It's inconsistent with practically 80% of the rest of the game. Otherwise, it's a pretty solid foundation of a re-rework.

59 minutes ago, Huyhn said:

Please look into toxic lash and weapons/mods that can cause self-damage(such as the lenz), having toxin being proc on one-self isn't great.

You probably shouldn't be shooting things that close, then. Weapons that do self-damage have always applied whatever status-damages on them. I guarantee that if you are firing a Lenz that close, that toxin proc isn't your only concern (Frost Proc, followed by Blast, followed by whatever else), and I am genuinely surprised you aren't dead after hitting yourself with weapons such as the Lenz.

Also, you do not "need" toxic lash, though it helps. The spores have accurate hit-boxes, and I have been getting solid results with the Tiberon Prime on semi-automatic.

[LuckyCharm]

Spores vs void fissures is super costly with energy. Everytime the fissures appear and enemies change form your spores get removed and most of the time will have to recast the ability since enemy spawns are so low to start with. Not sure if its a bug for a feature, but either way its very irritating since she doesn't have a way to get her own energy back anymore

[SyBuhr]

6 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Spores vs void fissures is super costly with energy. Everytime the fissures appear and enemies change form your spores get removed and most of the time will have to recast the ability since enemy spawns are so low to start with. Not sure if its a bug for a feature, but either way its very irritating since she doesn't have a way to get her own energy back anymore

Yeah, I mentioned the same thing earlier. It would be an awesome Quality of Life change, because Spore (and subsequently, toxic-lash) are pretty useless in void missions now.

[Onimusho]

She felt about the same to me till I used spores then... just ouch.. something feels broken almost. Like this was not tested on things less then level 150 targets. We need better control of the spores if your going to use this "ramp up damage system". Remove press it one time to add spores then again to blow them all up. how about this for a quick spore revamp.

Hit 1 to add spores to target. (so we keep that old "apply spore" feel) but change..

Hold 1 to recall spores back to Saryn for a short time before they explode dealing damage around her. (or the tick damage slowly drops as she holds them) 

this way.. you can put spores up like we are now and get your damage going, but when you see your about to lose it all cause there is only one target left and nothing else around, you could hold 1 call your spores back for a short time then reapply it to a new target before it all drops off and have to start over.

after all she is the spore queen and she should be able to control her babies.

[AlucardXVX]

I've got an idea for Spores that I'm taking from my time as an MMO player. I think Spores should have a small cooldown, maybe 10 seconds, but during that 10 seconds, recasting it will pop any spores and spread them to nearby enemies to prevent them from dying immediately and the spread being reduced. So basically double tapping 1 would apply and spread spores. Or it could be an AOE ability that hits an enemy and enemies within a small area around them to instantly spread to more than just one. 

If that kind of thing isn't possible within the game's code, maybe having Toxic Lash on activation pop spores within a specific range, obviously extended by mods, could be another solution to enemies dying before spores can spread. 

Beyond those suggestions, I'm kind of at a loss. We need something that allows them to spread without the risk of killing enemies before they have a chance to spread. I know I sound like a broken record with most people saying the same thing. I really like the rework as a whole, just the buggy nature of Spores compared to how it used to work is a major buzzkill. 

Edited May 22, 2018 by AlucardXVX