[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD

[GhostLacuna]

Feedback on Saryn Changes:

Spore:

The spreading mechanics need several tweaks even a 100 base saryn before the changes could spread spores more consistent and affect more targets then a 280 range saryn can do now.

i tested 190 range builds, 250 range builds and 280 range builds both in regular fissure gameplay as well as sanctuary onslaught and even solo and the main point is that spores do not spread with any reliability nor consistency.

I have run several adaro tests with various kinds of weapons at all ranges and i could never ever get the spores to spread reliably.

This was with weapons such as gas arca plasmor, torid, pox, ignis wrath, gas lanka. That is strong Aoe weapons that should have no problem to pop spores and spread them with ease. But they do have problem to spread them.

Activating toxic lash has had no effect at all on the spreading of spores in my tests, it has just added damage.  Even popping spores with melee weapons and toxic lash active has been unreliable. 

The damage itself is fine but there are way to many bugs with spores as it is now.

Any ragdolled enemies can still break spores completely until you die. Khoras strangledome is a prime example of this.

Futhermore any enemy that is killed by the damage from spore only spread 1 single spore and that is at around 1/4 the range of the ability.  Also unless squad mates directly target spores and hit them spores will not spread at all.

Remove the absolute terrible randomness from how spores spread and it will be a good ability with the changes.

Molt: The changes has been good and it can now actually do its job for a few seconds even when facing level +100 enemies. The speed boost helps with getting out of trouble and even makes taking yourself from a to b faster then ever before.

Never used the spore turrent build so that is not missed at all by me.

Toxic Lash: This was a very welcome change and its now amazing. My melee saryn build loves it even more with the augment and her plague Kripath polearm zaw hybrid CO/crit build makes it a blast to play.

Still it does not reliably spreads spore no matter if we talk about primary, secondary or melee weapons which removes the synergy effect it had before. I hope this is a bug and that the near total randomness of spore spreading as it is now is fixed in upcoming hotfixes.

Miasma: the range increase was very welcome and since most saryns build for range anyway it hits a decent amount of enemies per cast. Miasma no longer seems to help with spreading spores but it gets a nice damage increase on spored enemies.

At lower levels you can jump around and play her more like a hit and run fighter and waste groups with miasma.

So overall the changes is welcome but spore are to unreliable and inconsistent to be left in that state. 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by GhostLacuna
Added bugs with spores spreading

[(PSN)a1-w23e_r4]

So I’m hearing that her spores are only working well in onslaught and survival? That is kind of weird, DE can’t just leave it like that. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by (PS4)a1-w23e_r4

[GhostLacuna]

1 hour ago, dkt0404 said:

The glitch where her 1st ability gets stuck on something that dies is still present.

Infested died to a pit from Vaubauns tripwire and my Saryn's spores were stuck active.

That is because all ragdolls on enemies break spore as of now this also happens with khoras strangledome. I have not had time to test if its the case for all ragdolls in the game or not.

[SolarDwagon]

Spores is a definite decrease in both power and QoL. Having to spread them off an initial enemy vastly decreases the impact of the ability, and the spreading mechanic makes it easy for spores to get stuck on enemies in the corner of the map and die out. This would be much less of a problem if spores were recastable.
Suggestions: Make spores recastable on Molt, but only pop them when enemies fire at Molt. As well, change spore detonation onto a held mechanic, allowing recasting on targets while the first instance is still spreading, or make detonation preserve some portion of damage for the next cast. There also still seem to be occasional instances where Spores do not spread correctly.

Molt has very little purpose without it's augment now.
Suggestions: Roll the augment into Molt and make the augment do more interesting things.

Toxic Lash however, is the one definite buff. Having it apply to weapons creates some interesting (and unexpected) uses.

Miasma, despite the changes, is honestly in a worse place than before, as the conditional synergies with other abilities are less likely to trigger, and less useful, since Spores do best left to kill enemies on their own.

Overall, Saryn is, contrary to DE's statements, much more energy hungry than before, with less power to deal with anything outside Survival and Onslaught, and much more frustration when other players kill vital enemies preventing Spores from spreading even within her current ideal game modes. Even as a support, Saryn no longer has cheap access to viral. As a frame, Saryn has had her usefulness massively diminished and needs multiple fixes and changes to her new abilities to make her competitive in Warframe's fast paced gameplay.

Edited May 18, 2018 by SolarDwagon

[Varja99]

9 hours ago, AetherLink said:

Longtime Saryn player, I'll post my current findings and feedback.

tl;dr version: saryn's ability to spread spores is now very weak and does not currently synergize with team play. Paired with the removal of toxin stacking, Saryn just can't compete with or even reliably assist other damage dealing frames. Can't damage reliably, can't debuff reliably because your spores will NOT SPREAD when your teammates are playing the game. Go Equinox, Mesa or Excal for damage. Saryn is okay for solo semi-tanky high damage.

What I wanted out of this change:

• Team Synergy with spores
• consistent debuff mechanic
• consistent damage mechanic

What we have so far:

• Spores only spread properly when they are popped OR when the target dies via spore damage OR by the saryn that cast the spores (and pops for toxic lash from that saryn)
  • tl;dr Saryn doesn't even have synergy with other Saryns anymore. If your teammates get kills it will severely hamper your ability to spread spores for debuff or damage stack. Lots of recasting.
• In addition to synergy issues, Spore spread was nerfed down to 1 spore per pop/kill/toxic lash bullet. This has a very very noticeable effect on spore spread. In team play, your teammates will not remotely be able to help you spread and you will have to recast a lot. In solo, you'll find it very difficult to spread spores to faraway mobs because they simply don't transfer as rapidly as they used to. unreliable debuff
• In addition to the number of spores spread, the range of the spread even with solo Saryn is still inconsistent. I've done several test runs in Adaro where I kill an enemy and an enemy ~20m away doesn't get infected even though my listed range is ~34m. Sometimes faraway mobs do get infected due to unique effects like the torid cloud. Toxic lash does help the spread consistency but it would be very nice if it simply worked as stated. I expect a mob in range to be infected if I kill a nearby infected enemy whether lash is up or not.

 

Conclusions

I understand why these tweaks were made and that Saryn could be very powerful if spores were both easy to stack and easy to spread. I can understand why the developer needs to monitor these tweaks carefully.

...All I want is to have fun playing with my friends. I really like Saryn and I really want her to add something to team play. I really like the spore counter and I wish I could get it to 100% uptime. I think it'd be really interesting if her armorstrip debuff was reliable. This might encourage alternatives from the 4x Corrosive Projection meta and spawn all sorts of interesting builds and synergies.

Very powerful stuff isn't a weakness in a game, especially when it keeps people playing and makes it more fun. Spore's damage stack is very powerful, but counterbalancing this power with crippling uselessness everywhere else isn't a solution I'm liking a lot at this moment.

Changes to Molt are great, Toxic Lash is interesting but doesn't fix spore spreading, Miasma is great. low duration is good on saryn to keep that cc rolling.

 

You got it completely right. These are exactly my thoughts.

[Stykera]

Less powerful or not, i dont know. But man she is fun to play with now. Her first bugs out and gets stuck sometimes. 

[Cibyllae]

9 hours ago, AetherLink said:

In addition to the number of spores spread, the range of the spread even with solo Saryn is still inconsistent. I've done several test runs in Adaro where I kill an enemy and an enemy ~20m away doesn't get infected even though my listed range is ~34m. Sometimes faraway mobs do get infected due to unique effects like the torid cloud. Toxic lash does help the spread consistency but it would be very nice if it simply worked as stated. I expect a mob in range to be infected if I kill a nearby infected enemy whether lash is up or not.

If you are killing an enemy with spores on them their range is going to halved, this would explain why you are not able to reach an enemy 20m away with a 34m radius spore has the effective radius is 17m.

[Ozamchist]

3 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Dude, there's no LOS in spores. I just did a kuva survival in the kuva fortress, whole map covered with spores. And just to be 100% sure before replying to this thread, I tested it again in the kuva fortress. Cast spores in one room, it spread to enemies behind a closed door in the next room. Why is everyone in these forums saying there's LOS on spores? Do you guys actually know how to use the new spores? 

New Saryn is tons of fun, I really like her. I miss the synergy of toxin procs being carried by spores, you could create some insane combos with that, but the new saryn is also very strong in the right situation. Kuva survival she effortlessly melts that entire map. 

A lot of these people probably ran in with thier old Garbo builds with zero adjustments to reflect the changes and with the notion that the new rework is bad. They did it with the last rework, and judging by that it will be a month to half a year before they either pull their heads out of thier own rear ends, or go off to play some other thing.

[UncaIroh]

New feedback re spores:

We used to be able to easily spread spores with gas clouds from weapons like pox or torid, this is not the case any more unless you activate toxic lash. Could we have that back?

Right now the most efficient way to spread it consistently (meaning you don't need to watch whether toxic lash is still active) is to use punch through weapons like ignis or arca plasmor, or use a punch through mod.

Again, more range please...

[True_Naeblis]

I just finished a run where she was again locked out of all abilities. I hope that gets fixed quickly.

Noot a fan at all of the press 1 to pop mechanic. I'd rather have it as it was before, that 1 spreads additional spores. If they can spread on their own infinitely, then there's no reason that we shouldn't be able to spread them ourselves. I don't think unlimited duration was the way to go combined with having to pop them to spread them in another area. It just makes the ability feel clunky in comparison with the way that spores used to spread both on their own and by a Saryn spreading them manually with how spread out mobs can be. Would still prefer Viral here, but I think we know what the chances are of that being reverted.

• Spores need to be able to be spread manually to additional enemies.
• Shame that her Molt was abused. It was nice to put spores on it and let enemies shoot it and spread spores to themselves. Would be nice to see healing built in rather than needing an augment.
• The increased armor is a welcome change. Please see Mr. Rhino about that kind of fix next.
• Toxic Lash working on all weapons is great.
• Miasma now using Viral is a nice change, though higher range for it would be nice. Honestly I'd prefer that it was reverted and Spores got Viral, but again, I doubt that will happen.

My biggest issue is seeing this released without more in-depth testing. For such a huge overhaul it feels unnecessarily rushed. Please in the future have more players involved and get things polished before pushing them live. Please also consider community feedback. There's a lot of potential here, but even once all the bugs are fixed if she continues to function the way it seems she's intended to she's going to be clunky in a way that will make quite a few players less than enthused to use her. Guess we'll see, but I hope that constructive feedback is taken into consideration.

[Cibyllae]

Here is a video in Sim of Spore interacting between two enemies without LoS. I'm working on another one out of Sim.

 

Saryn_Spore_LoS_Test

EDIT: I'll try and fix the quality on the next one

Edited May 18, 2018 by Cibyllae

[GhostLacuna]

12 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

A lot of these people probably ran in with thier old Garbo builds with zero adjustments to reflect the changes and with the notion that the new rework is bad. They did it with the last rework, and judging by that it will be a month to half a year before they either pull their heads out of thier own rear ends, or go off to play some other thing.

A 5 combo post that is a new record and NO many of us has ran tests for several hours with vastly different builds to see how it affects the abilities now.  Spores inability to consitant and reliably be spread is the most glaring issue as of now.

Edited May 18, 2018 by GhostLacuna

[Jemades]

[BUG]

Synoid Simulor is not popping spores in any capacity.

[UncaIroh]

1 minute ago, Jemades said:

[BUG]

Synoid Simulor is not popping spores in any capacity.

try these: turn on toxic lash or put shred in. I do consider this a bug though since aoes are supposed to pop spores... at least they used to.

[LIKE_A_PR3DAT0R]

9 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

The following fixes for Spores just went live in Hotfix 22.20.2!

• Fixed a case where Clients may get stuck unable to cast Saryn’s Spores anymore if they cast Spores on a target that dies during the cast.

this glitch is still here

 

it got fixed when the host left the game.....

[Ozamchist]

23 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

 NO many of us has ran tests for several hours with vastly different builds to see how it affects the abilities now.

Given this community's track record of rarely, if ever, giving things their fair shot, I sincerely doubt enough actual full tests and in depth examinations have been done.

Edited May 18, 2018 by TermiteFrame

[Valaska]

3 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Dude, there's no LOS in spores. I just did a kuva survival in the kuva fortress, whole map covered with spores. And just to be 100% sure before replying to this thread, I tested it again in the kuva fortress. Cast spores in one room, it spread to enemies behind a closed door in the next room. Why is everyone in these forums saying there's LOS on spores? Do you guys actually know how to use the new spores? 

New Saryn is tons of fun, I really like her. I miss the synergy of toxin procs being carried by spores, you could create some insane combos with that, but the new saryn is also very strong in the right situation. Kuva survival she effortlessly melts that entire map. 

Look at target. Hit 1, shoot spore or kill enemy (killing is SUPPOSED to spread at max range now), watch spore refuse to spread even past crates, containers, etc and is extremely inconsistent... Worse than it ever has been.

That's it, that's about it man. It is simple and the reason people are complaining is that it is NOT working.

[Sasuda]

Still need to test more but had a bug where all of my abilities and melee quit working, including transference.

Spores definitely kills itself out all the time, and sucks to spread as many expected. Much less interesting back to a basic first ability that primarily kills a small group and that's it. Toxic Lash really lasts and seems to do a lot of damage. It's a general damage buff you always leave on, like other abilities nothing particularly interesting. Molt is a usable decoy nothing more, back to seeing limited use. Nothing particularly interesting. Of course I need to spend more time testing. But so far she seems less interesting than before. Still usable sure. We will see.

[Morthal]

3 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Given this community's track record of rarely, if ever, giving things their fair shot, I sincerely doubt enough actual full tests and in depth examinations have been done.

Just finished testing for duration/range/power/efficiency against lvl 135 corrupted. In all instances, the only useful skill was molt and miasma BUT the duration and range of miasma is pretty crappy. Ignis Wraith stripped armor faster, killed targets faster and of course half the time required after getting hit with miasma.

Pretty much exactly the issues that many of us were stating before the rework are present 😐

[kyori]

I think why many said spores are not reliably spreading is because we used to be able to cast spores many times on enemies coming from all direction. Now we can only cast it once on a certain group of enemies coming from 1 direction and if there’s a new group of enemies coming from the opposite direction, we won’t be able to cast spore again without having to burst those previously casted first. So in this sense casting spores has been severely handicapped. 

[Ozamchist]

2 minutes ago, kyori said:

I think why many said spores are not reliably spreading is because we used to be able to cast spores many times on enemies coming from all direction. Now we can only cast it once on a certain group of enemies coming from 1 direction and if there’s a new group of enemies coming from the opposite direction, we won’t be able to cast spore again without having to burst those previously casted first. So in this sense casting spores has been severely handicapped. 

It is in fact this very thing, spores have always had a wonky spread.

[Cibyllae]

51 minutes ago, Valaska said:

Look at target. Hit 1, shoot spore or kill enemy (killing is SUPPOSED to spread at max range now)

Quote where DE said this in the patch notes please, this is how rumors spread if you don't quote where DE said this was a change they made.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Cibyllae

[Edzhang]

17 minutes ago, Valaska said:

Look at target. Hit 1, shoot spore or kill enemy (killing is SUPPOSED to spread at max range now), watch spore refuse to spread even past crates, containers, etc and is extremely inconsistent... Worse than it ever has been.

That's it, that's about it man. It is simple and the reason people are complaining is that it is NOT working.

I can confirm too that it isnt affected by LoS.. i did an onslaught, on derelict tileset i got like 17k focus by casting spore, killing that enemy and standing still for the next 45 sec while the spore do the job, my spore kills enemies both downstairs and upstairs.. i didnt need to recast or anything.. yeah, sometimes there’s one or two enemies that stand right before the infected and isnt affected by spore, but mostly it still works and isn’t affected by LoS..

[Ozamchist]

19 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Just finished testing for duration/range/power/efficiency against lvl 135 corrupted. In all instances, the only useful skill was molt and miasma BUT the duration and range of miasma is pretty crappy. Ignis Wraith stripped armor faster, killed targets faster and of course half the time required after getting hit with miasma.

Pretty much exactly the issues that many of us were stating before the rework are present 😐

Oh yeah...
Mhm...
Definitely some in depth testing going on here.

[Cibyllae]

Saryn_Spore_LoS_Test_Solo_Hydron_Sedna_Wave_2

Links are working now

 

 

Proof Spore Spread is not affected by LoS

 

EDIT: This is the Sim. test I ran with equatable results. I apologize for the quality.

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

Here is a video in Sim of Spore interacting between two enemies without LoS. I'm working on another one out of Sim.

 

Saryn_Spore_LoS_Test

EDIT: I'll try and fix the quality on the next one

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Cibyllae
Link Fixing