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[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD


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Saryn infected icon in bottom right corner isn't working 50% if not most of the time, as you can see from images below (DE these are F6 images so if you can get more info from them great)

But its hit or miss if it tells you the infected amount and tick damage

 

And I hope DE will change and tweak I'm sure they will but sorry have to say from a couple missions and all 3 sorties I just completed she is BAD, sorry especially spreading spores is just terrible, its nothing like it used to be where everything would be covered infected this its next to nothing and really doesn't seem to be doing much damage at all.... her toxin lash seems OK but I thought was suppose to work on weapons too, how ever Arca Plasmor didn't seems to be proc'ing at Toxin but I wasn't testing that much

My Saryn Prime build is I'm MR25 and sh'es 78% Duration, 130% Efficiency, 265% Range, 160% Strength 

She feels very lacklustre and before pressing 1 on a enemy and melee that enemy would spread her spores all over like crazy it was a beautiful thing to see, now its meh... and I'm really disappointing...sadly have to say this seems to be a recent trend with changes and tweaks and upcoming changes are just meh...

oh and I've been saying as well as many many others that Exodia Contagion was dead broken did baby damage and you today patch it to now work with combo counter increased damage (only at 30+ meters though 😞 ) And we all know you're going to take away the combo counter increased damage which I might say is a HUGE mistake, either way. Why?

Back on Saryn, Sorry not liking it and It sound great the changes but we know it all rested on how you make the spores spread and how they do and its bad... I hope they will change this asap and fix the tick damage icon too, as its 50% of the time not there

I feel rather depressed about many of these things that are not broken and work ok then are seeming changed to much and then we have to spend the next several weeks tweaking and fixing all the mistakes... I know DE will sort it but seriously her spore spreading which is what she is known for now is terrible

OK I'm 32 hours awake very tired so if this is all over I'm sorry, just got of a plane after a 12 hour flight and being up for 24 hours so im 36 hours ish or close to that awake and im dead lol

 

her is the F6 images from the game showing her spores where on enemies and doing tick damage but the icon in right hand corner wasn't there

 

Warframe0027.jpg

Warframe0026.jpg

 

 

 

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Been playing a little bit and experienced some interactions that might make it game breaking.
One being the spore skill becoming locked when moving between portals in Onslaught.
Another similar situation is when the spore target dies just as you cast your spore will result in the spore not propogating, essentially locking the spore skill as well.

 

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My thoughts on Saryn change.

Did an onslaught with my regular setup. Keeping spores up was terrible, so I decided to run a very low power build. Went down to 40% power, and 258% range, 100% dur 130% eff. (not running augur reach yet which I need to get). The results were devastating. The first few waves enemies were too weak to build a good chain reaction, but around wave 4 it got much easier to do. I was able to keep the entire room spored, and even with spore dropping to 1 enemy infected, using Molt and some positioning I could easily ramp up infection again. 

Running very low power seems to allow spore damage to ramp up well with increasing enemy HP, and in this instance going from viral to corrosive I feel is doubly beneficial since spores can tick more damage without killing enemies, especially unarmored ones. 

Molt's change is incredible. I love it.

Toxic lash needs some testing to see how it works with primaries since I couldn't quite tell how it was affecting my weapon. Speaking of which, I was using a Mutalist Cernos and leaving gas clouds around to help keep spores spreading when newly infected enemies run into them. 

I had a little debate with myself over how such a low power build would affect Miasma, but Miasma's power now comes from it spreading viral. I don't need to do a lot of damage with it. If I have a lot of spore damage ticking, and armor has been stripped, an aoe Viral blast is devastating. The room literally melts. 

Final thoughts: Once people get the hang of this build and tweak it and find new ways to synergize it, I have a feeling this is going to be incredibly broken. I'm expecting a few tweaks to how spores work, but Molt and Toxic lash are in a really good place right now. 

Edited by Kaerd
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9 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hidden: "While waiting for the update to download, may as well do some theorycrafting. "

We hide posts that don't meet the requested criteria to devote our attention to the ones that do :)!

> we appreciate your constructive feedback and encourage you to thoroughly play with the rework before sharing your thoughts 

Saryn spores are not spreading I hope this isn't how it should work if so its huge amount less than it did before, also her Icon in bottom right hand corner like Nidus which informs us how many enemies and tick damage isn't showing up 50% if not more of the time 🙂

I know we will get tweaks and fixes but srory have to say I'm not liking the feel of it, her spreading of spores is bad, and the toxin lash doesn't seem to work on everything most of the time either. I don;t know getting sad with all these changes of things that are ok and now not 🙂 love you guys but 😞 

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Loving it. that's for sure. Spores scale really well now at higher levels especially with proper management.

EDIT: just did 9 waves of elite onslaught solo and left with near max efficiency. Yeah... she is strong.

Edited by Airwolfen
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I hate the fact that I cannot cast multiple spores on different parts of the map and sometimes I am not even be able to cast it on a moa

idk if it is a bug but seems I cannot recast spore if the spore got nullifered

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18 minutes ago, ARKANOiiDe said:

I really dont understand how the spores work now, sometimes they spread on like the whole map(was testing on Hydron), and sometimes on just 1-2 enemies. And many times the spore counter disappears, but i clearly see damage numbers ticking on enemies. Used 130% Strength and 280% Range.

 

Also damage wise theyre are ok imo, WHEN they work and spread 🙂

Spore counter will dissapear when spores runs out, but don't forget Saryn doubles status duration. If using toxic lash, popping spores spreads toxin, and this is the damage you are seeing. Unlike before, spores don't seem to proc toxin damage based off your weapon (RIP sniper Saryn). Not sure how pure gas weapons work now. Will have to wait for someone to do some simulacrum testing. If I've got this wrong please let me know. :)

Edit: Spores are supposed to last indefinitely now, so I'm assuming that what I saw had to do with my gas clouds popping spores and not reaching new enemies, but leaving the toxic proc. Not sure what you are using. It might have something to do with toxic lash, but unsure at the moment.

Edited by Kaerd
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Played with her a bit, it seems like she's gone back to press 4 to win, I just stacked range + strength with some efficiency and spammed 4 and watched the map die.

My spores sometimes spread throughout the entire map and sometimes wouldn't even spread to the guy right next to them... I'm really not sure what is going on here, I'm playing with 250% range and the spore spreading seems very weird. I've also had all my spores instantly vanish (I didn't press 1 to detonate).

Prior to the update I ran my Saryn with negative efficiency (because I would only cast 1-2 spores per wave/round), now even with positive efficiency and zenurik I'm always out of energy, she's become extremely energy hungry.

I REALLY miss Viral on the spores, the global viral proc made running around with toxic and slash weapons amazingly fun - even with extremely low power strength. Now I need to spam 4 to do the same effect (and then I might as well go for the full damage nuke build).

New Toxic Lash is quite nice, I'd love to use it with the old Viral spores.

Instead of focusing on spreading spores, it feels like Saryn has become like Discharge Volt or Quake Banshee...
 

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I am running with 128% dur, 75% eff, 235% range, 209% Str.

1) Well Sporing a target was never our best way to go as Saryn, because another player may kill it at the time of cast, wasting our energy, therefore we preferred Sporing our Molts..

2) Molt has no timer on it (bottom right) but only the upper right and shows no health bar whatsoever when you hover your cursor on it.

3) As some already mentioned spores spread weirdly and what happened to me several times is that they get stuck in the "press again to explode" state, requiring death-self ressurect  tactic to debug.

4) Feels like Spore-Spreading needs some help if the "no sporing your molt" remains, the damage is way better though.

5) As of this new Spores breaking armor, there goes our Naramon Polarity Aura, another forma wasted due to such changes.

Edited by Dimzor
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My smaller gripes thus far are;

Neggo--
Corrosive instead of Viral on spores? Thanks for the set back in damage capabilities... Doesnt help that the damage scaling feels waaay off in the first place - Is the toxin procc mechanism even still in or did it get removed?

Press again to trigger? No thanks! In the heat of battle miss-pressing happens and if you then already scaled the spores a bit and just so happen to end up out of LoS with enemies, your out of luck... spores gone and you can't cast it until you get LoS again to get it rolling again!

So what is the molt really good for now? Aggro is a joke still, spores cant be cast on it(I do really get it, you don't like those 'afk' farming people and I'm fine with that)! To me the movement speed increase felt like a very weird choice to go for - now Saryn feels more like a scared lizard that drops its tail to run away.. 

Miasma still need to be a few energy points cheaper, with the damage it brings to the table it'd be more efficient just having any other aoe frame push theirs like Equi, Volt, Rhino, Mag and so on...


Cuudos--
I love the armor increase, now the melee Saryn can actually take a hit and use that regenerative molt augment efficiently!

Toxic Lash on other than Melee? Woop woop my Sobek turns from godslaying beast to the unknown object that ripped a hole in spacetime!

I like the fact that the spores spread back and fourth between targets so much faster now, all hail the removal of internal cd's on infections!(Or so I perceived it to be)

Suggestions--
I'd love seeing Miasma having a complete work over, skip the push button give effect crap and turn it into this aoe haze aura that just creeps viral proccs and damage on targets within your aura, let it linger in an area you've been and slowly fade out if the Saryn moved away or turned it off/ran out of energy. This could really take advantage of that new shiny particle gfx system that was put in!

Push again to trigger spore explosion, change this to a Hold for 0.5 s to trigger - As a QoL change it would be a HUGE difference on the less motor-functional players, clumsy peeps and the stressed out trigger spammers! 😄

Give the molt some life, it's after all the skin of a pestful, viral almost floral killer - the miasma effect I mentioned earlier could be in play here but at a reduced range and power!
If not that then at least make the movement speed increase act like Volt Speed where you gain some melee attack speed as well!

Give back the possibility to have the spores spread outside of LoS, seriously until you remove half the crummy boxes, enemy outside map spawns and so on it's just gonna be a pain trying to get that spore to be useful again. Forcing non-stop LoS for interaction really just caters to a scenario where tank-meta's that can stand in the face of an enemy and smile like any other masochist would..

That's all I can come to think of right now, Not a bad update overall but some points really made my evening crap..



 

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First impressions are not good I'm afraid.  You talked a lot about the reason for these changes being to make her more active and to make the abilities work better together, if anything the reverse has happened.  Spores don't interact well with any of the other abilities, Molt and Toxic Lash are completely on their own and Miasma cancels spores, the very thing you don't want to do!!  Also it's cast and forget if the spores do stay alive, which certainly isn't more active!  ~shrug~

Spores - there is a bug where is is locked and uncastable kicking around.  Also they barely spread, even with max damage and she's lost the interaction she used to get with nova for example... this was a poor choice imo.  Kuva survival the spores barely keep alive with max range for more than a few seconds, occasionally the counter would get up a bit and tick some decent damage but compared to the saryn of old if you had a good spore/condition overload build, this is very weak.  You are basically trying to get your team mates to stop killing so you can let your spores last long enough to do enough damage to do the killing... it doesn't make sense!!!  EDIT;  Elite onslaught with max range and high str was working ok for spores, still  plenty kills, but the actual number infested was often dropping to zero, even with frames that aren't meta for their onslaught murdering.  If there had been a volt it would have been game over.  Also it seemed like their might be a bug with the spore spreading as the counter was dying out but with enemies still on the tile!  Hmm?

Molt - bring casting spores on molt back if there is any hope of this 'infinite' damage you were so excited about.  The speed boost is nice, otherwise, meh.

Toxic Lash - no longer interacts with the spores, again a poor change, the weapon buff is nice but it's now just a random ability with no real synergy with any of the others

Miasma - Spores and Miasma together are counter intuitive... miasma bursts all spores, if its cast by another Saryn!!  Really?  That needs changed.  Also there was a lot of talk about making the abilities work together and this just doesn't work well with spores at all.  So if you are gonna roll out a Saryn instead of bringing along your CP, then great, otherwise, disappointing.  EDIT:  Tried another mission and Miasma wasn't bursting the spores... which is bug that it does or doesn't??

I have 5000 hours in this game and this needless breaking of frames who were better before is really sad.  First Ember, now this, sad times for our classic, favourite frames. 

Edited by Scarlet78
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please allow us to cast spores on more then one target manually, and detonate with holding it. atm it kills the flow to cast once, and watch it fail to spread. atm even with range it seems to not wanna go anywhere. after playign a couple defense missions i feel sad. Not watching them spread/fail spread. Or just clickign power from how she use to be and id detonate them early. killing my own spread. 

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29 minutes ago, Sky_Gamer_Ufficial said:

Is me or is not possible to cast Spores on Molt? I've tried a lot of times to cast it, but nothing....... sometimes Spores don't want to go on enemies. Please DE fix this...

They changed that as it was a bit of a low effort nuke

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Wow, awesome job with this rework. Love everything so far.

The only thing that I can think of to change is that Toxic Lashes Melee Block Reduction should be changed to something else. Still defensive and something that would work for both Ranged and melee. Like a straight Damage Reduction, maybe.

 

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Well, the new patch is live, and I was excited to test out saryn's new spores, both in the simulacrum, and on the field.

Tests were against 20x level 100 heavy gunners both paused and unpaused, and a kuva flood.

Against 20x level 100 heavy gunners with a max range/blind rage build, by the time I killed all twenty, spores had ramped to 413 damage, not even 1% of prior immediate dps.

Field tests were even worse, as the run and gun nature of most missions completely clashes with the forced reset. Even when I got to the siphon and got to stand still for a bit, the long range spread forced me to reset it anyways whenever we killed off the nearby mobs.

Hypothetically if I afk for 2 minutes it could actually temporarily match old toxin spread dps, but a dps frame who needs multiple minutes of ramp that gets reset every time you clear the room is a pretty crappy dps frame.

Spores were Saryn's strongest ability, and now they are far more impractical for far less power.

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14 minutes ago, Scarlet78 said:



 

this needless breaking of frames who were better before is really sad.  First Ember, now this, sad times for our classic, favourite frames. 

Agreed, the worst thing is it sounds like more frame 'changes' are incoming... not to mention the melee rework... the quick change we got this update to melee doesn't exactly instil me with confidence in their upcoming melee rework 😞

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The changes seem ok so far.

Just... Miasma has the exact same problem of Nova's Molecular Prime in its early days: it nukes everything in a huge area in a blink. I thought this was something not wanted anymore.

Saryn is a contagion frame: her ulti should propagate through time, like the current Molecular Prime. (maybe with differences, but the overall mechanics).

Edited by Yaerion
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Spores:
Other players mentioned it before me, spreading spores feels slow, cluncky and unreliable.
Sometimes it's possible to infect a whole room, but sometimes it's just doesn't happen.
Detonating the spores is nice, but it's too easy to accidently press 1 to do it and lose all the hard earned spread of spores the player got.
The spread is unreliable and very limited, because of the "recast to detonate" the spread rely on a single enemy to be able to pass the spores to other enemies, but being able to cast Spores on more uninfected enemies might fix the main issue of poor spreading.
My suggestions are:
- Cast on an uninfected enemy to infect him with spores. That way the player can have more than one sourse of spores to spread from while preventing spams on spores.
- Hold the button to detonate. It will prevent unintentional detonations of spores.

Molt:
Feels much better.
The added speed is probubly one of the best changes in this rework. Being able to run to safty when needed is amazing.

Toxic Lash:
I see no dowsides.

Miasma:
Feels untouched. The new sound makes it just sound more powerful, but it still feels the same.

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So I did some Simulacrum testing on Spore, and here's what I figured out. 

  • Spores has one damage tick for every Spore on an enemy. An enemy afflicted with 3 Spores takes 3 ticks of damage from Spores every cycle. 
  • Every time a Spore ticks its damage, the damage per tick of every spore on any enemy increases by 1. This increase appears to be affected by Power Strength. 
  • Every tick has a 50% chance to proc Corrosive. 
  • Spreading appears to obey LoS.

Now. What I really like about this is that I could test it for 10 minutes and essentially figure out how the mechanics work on my own, whereas before, I spent a lot of time researching and testing it and only came up with a bunch of conflicting results that led to far more confusion than clarity. 

So now I'll give some feedback based on my first impressions. 

The Good

  • Durability is massively better. Between the extra armor, Molt actually functioning as a decoy, 3 guaranteed seconds of Regenerative Molt healing, and the speed boost on Molt, Saryn actually feels functional as a melee Warframe now, instead of a gimmick that I can get away with.
  • With the mass corrosive procs and the changes to Toxic Lash, her melee DPS feels a lot higher as well. 
  • The duration buff to Toxic Lash is very welcome. 
  • Energy economy in general is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better. Seriously. Thank you. It's great. 

The Bad

  • Damage ramp-up feels really slow, but I suppose it makes sense why it's this way, since I'm assuming there's no cap on its damage per tick. 
  • The spore detonation on recast is useless. Full stop. That nuke needs to be utterly devastating to justify it totally resetting the Spore damage counter. I'll have to test this feature a little more, but at the moment, it just seems like far too little of a payout for how costly it is when I could just wait for the damage to tick. 
  • Miasma still feels really lackluster, especially considering how much it costs. It's still probably going to mostly end up being a panic stun for me, and not much more than that. 
  • She still feels really bad against low level enemies, but I don't know what to do with that. 

Suggestions

  • Remove the recast to detonate on Spores. Let us cast it on multiple enemies like we could before. 
  • Move that mechanic to Miasma, but with a couple of adjustments. 
    • Miasma now detonates all Spores and resets the damage counter. Instead of Miasma's base damage being doubled, it now adds double the Spore's damage counter to its damage per tick (So if Spores is dealing 300 damage, then Miasma does 600 per tick in addition to its base damage). 

That would make the Spore detonation feel less punishing, while preserving it in the kit to make Miasma better. 

I think that's all I have for now. I'll go play her in some missions, then probably update this post. 

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Going to start by saying, as a solo player who has always built around surviving higher level stuff on saryn and played her alot as a melee frame her power has definitly increased but even with hunters adrenaline, i feel energy starved a lot. I will also say that with a super high range low power build, it feels somewhat worse then before, and i cant exactly put my finger on why.

Spores: I dont know how to feel about it. Its not a line of sight thing, its not always a range thing, but there is somthing going on with the way they proliferate that is super unpredictable. I dont know if its something happening when mobs try spreading spores after they die, or if its an interaction with guns and toxic lash. This may just take time to get use to, and needs more testing but i also feel 200% power strength for max status chance is too high. It pretty much forces you into running blind rage if you want to keep any survivablity and range, which in turn causes energy hunger which is not helped by the removal of the energy gained on toxic lash. The ramp up damage with even 240% strength is too low for a frame that isnt a front line damage dealer, after this i have come to the realization that toxic lash and miasma feel like her main damage abilities.

Edit:@235 range i had much better functionality from spores, before with a melee build 190ish was fine but it seems there is no escaping overextended in her builds now, so that leaves you with needing overextended/blind rage/stretch/power drift and transient fortitude to get functional range and max power strength. Whatever fix you guys made to it seems to have also got them spreading better. thanks.

Molt: I dont like that speed buff at all, i know that its new and maybe takes some growing pains, but i spam molt alot, and i felt like i had volt in my group the whole time i played her and not in a good way. I understand that this was put there to help her "get out" of situations and regen up but, i think if you wanted to go that route 4-5 seconds of stealth would be way more welcome at least for me, because it would force the AI off of saryn and actually let her navigate as a better upfront damage dealer with weapons and toxic lash.\

Edit: The more i fine tune my build and run elite onslaught solo, the more i think she is a little bit strong. In real world game play it will never get out of control because of the mobile nature of the game or enemy hp will force a spore damage reset, but in onslaught some of these numbers are... big. She is undeniably on the level of mesa and other dps frames in terms of just raw damage now.

Toxic lash: Umm, Its really good.. really really good shot guns and melee are loving this. The problem is she is not built to stand and deal damage like that in level 80+ content, even with the armor change and running steel fiber and regenerative molt, greneer and corpus shred her, so if this change is meant to see her dealing more raw weapon damage she needs a way to actually hang in a fight and frankly molts distraction will never be enough no matter how long it lives because the AI just doenst switch off of saryn a lot of the time, see before mentioned speed burst to stealth idea.

Miasma: Feelsgoodman. Its really nice. The viral proc on top of the new damage with a high strength build definitly gives it a feeling of punch and sounds great, i love it. I would like to see its energy cost slightly reduced but that was in a blind rage build, so i will mess with it, either way its nice.

conclusion: saryn is still saryn if you weren't a player depending on spores to spread toxin as your main or only playstyle for the frame. She feels tankier for a solo player and most of her kit overall saw an improvement. Spores are going to require some testing, patients, and time, something feels different and i just havent figured it out yet, and the desire to cast spores again as you move around is going to be a rough habit to break. I love that toxic lash brings a more flexible damage playstyle to her and any change that gives you more ways to play a frame are always welcome. Its one of those situations where, in the beginning there will be alot of doomsayers and opinions on what or how things should change but for the most part i feel this will in time be considered a welcome update to her.

Edited by Revantis
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