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[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD


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Just tested solo ESO 8 zones. The damage output on spores is the real deal. Really happy with the changes.

Now to some negative feedback:

  • I don't like the spore detonation. If you want to reset the spores with each cast just make the recast both the detonation and spore cast at the same time. Currently I need to double click 1 to cast my spores on the enemy in front of me because some dude somewhere on the other side of the room has a spore on him. But it would be even better if spore recast would not remove the spores on the enemies and instead reset the damage counter only.
  • I still don't use miasma. If you think spores outmatched miasma before then its even worse now. Compared to spores damage, miasma is dirt. And it costs 100 energy + needs to be recasted. It's like very expensive dirt. With the way spores are now, miasma has no place in saryn's kit as a straight up damage spell. Keep the viral, keep the cc, but you need to make it do something else instead of doing damage. It can't compete with spores.

Anyways, my saryn is great(just that she only has 3 useful abilities)!

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So far played one mission and every time I looked up my spores where gone ..... so pretty much exactly what I was expecting where managing your spores is just kinda irritating. 

Also the thermal runaway worked exactly as expected where the damage ramps up enough that it forces a spore reset. Which I'm sure was intended but everyone was too distracted by the "but it scales infinitely~" to see the glaringly obvious trap

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey! AoE will spread Spores with Toxic Lash active 🙂

Ferrox doesn't do anything when thrown (when it is impaled in the ground and does ticks of damage) - doesn't spread spores nor is it affected by Toxic Lash. Intended?

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Anyone else play Saryn on low level stuff yet...?

I have no problems keeping spores up on higher level stuff but in low lvl games it's just not even worth using anymore... 

And I don't think spores spread at the same range when they just die from the spore... at 265% range they won't spread to an enemy on the other side of a defence cryo pod when the spores kill the enemy, but when I pop a spore it goes around the map... Is this supposed to happen like this?

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3 hours ago, SultryArgonianBard said:

Saryns new voice is kinda hard to listen to because of how off-putting it sounds. I personally just don't like it -- I won't speak for others -- and it makes it difficult to play Saryn without completely muting the game altogether. Like, voices for Rhino and Valkyr make sense  due to them roaring / screaming. Atlas' "voice" doesn't even sound remotely human. So it's easier to put up with theirs, even though they still kinda grate the ears a fair bit. Those I can deal with. But Saryn? Again it's just... really off-putting. It'd be great if we could have an option to disable her voice in the Sound options menu, similarly to how we have the option to disable Octavia's Mandachord.

So... anyone at DE notice this or...? Can't speak for others really... but I know I'm not the only person with some mild discomfort when hearing the voice. Saryn sounds like an Infested trying to heave up a bad Grineer.

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Spores scale very well, but to use them effectively you absolutely have to have a 280% range build otherwise they just do not spread. Miasma is good, Miasma always suffered because of the lack of range, but now the roles are reversed with spores having the lack of range. Toxic lash is great, but still doesn't fit the frame. And Molt, oh Molt, the removal of the synergy with spores greatly decrease its usefulness and Saryns endurance run survivability. Basically her molt is an empty ability slot now. She's a lot more energy hungry now.

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3 hours ago, SultryArgonianBard said:

Saryns new voice is kinda hard to listen to because of how off-putting it sounds. I personally just don't like it -- I won't speak for others -- and it makes it difficult to play Saryn without completely muting the game altogether. Like, voices for Rhino and Valkyr make sense  due to them roaring / screaming. Atlas' "voice" doesn't even sound remotely human. So it's easier to put up with theirs, even though they still kinda grate the ears a fair bit. Those I can deal with. But Saryn? Again it's just... really off-putting. It'd be great if we could have an option to disable her voice in the Sound options menu, similarly to how we have the option to disable Octavia's Mandachord.

Im with ya. Not a fan of the voice of Miasma.

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So this is quite irritating. Max range saryn is the new way to passively rack up damage for no energy investment at all with spores freely spreading around indefinitely. I thought DE was opposed to passive/AFK play yet you guys keep adding more and more ways for the game to play itself. I'm not even sure this is still a game for me, if that's what I wanted to do I'd play idle games on my phone.

Edited by sixmille
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51 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Fixed a case where Clients may get stuck unable to cast Saryn’s Spores anymore if they cast Spores on a target that dies during the cast.

I think its this bug again? I was locked out of casting spores.saryn_locked_out_bug.png

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The rework turned out to be exactly as could be expected from the layout plans - a complete mess.

1. Energy and Hunger

She had ONE whole ability to use before, which you could cast once in a blue moon and still easily have a couple hundred meters covered in spores without any effort on your part. This is the exact opposite of energy hungry. Now she has 3 abilities to use, one of which is the ultimate that applies a very short proc. Meaning from a frame that used to be topped off on energy with as little as 45% efficiency she turned into a frame that can really be energy hungry.

2. Abilities

A. Spores - they are now extremely unhandy. Very often you find yourself having to cast spores twice - because you have to pop the old ones before you can apply new ones to newly encountered enemies. At times I find myself confused about whether I should pop and recast anew or maybe backtrack find old enemies and spread from them, but there's no way to measure the range between them. Corrosive damage and what's more important procs are extremely shifted towards armored targets. 

B. Molt - well, it's a little bit better than it used to be but it still holds very little value. Integrate the augment into the ability. 

C. Toxic Lash - damage bonus is too high and strong against corpus. It wasn't as pronounced when it was a melee only buff, because melee was already strong by itself. Adding it to ranged weapons is a bit too much. However, it would have been fine, if you kept the old sporesDouble damage bonus for melee is just insane. Blocking should be replaced with damage reduction if you have melee equipped.

D. Miasma - an ultimate applying a temporary proc was a mistake. And it was a mistake to switch corrosive with viral. 

3. Overall Performance

The new Saryn is very powerful damage-wise, in fact she is too powerful between the armor melting Spores, damage buff from Toxic Lash and the new Miasma. But she is as much clunky and unbalanced. The rework brought more problems than it solved because she got reinvented instead of getting tweaked. She could have been reworked into something beautiful with very simple changes that would increase the value of her underused abilities making her whole kit great, while retaining her general playstyle. Many suggestions were made. Looks like all of them ignored. Here's mine, for example.

Instead we got what we got.

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51 minutes ago, SSkorus said:

First impressions of new Saryn in a kuva survival:

I quite like this new rework. I'll admit that the spores are useless until enemies are around level 65ish, but they truly begin to shine after level 100. Combo-ing the corrosive spores with viral miasma and a torid with radiation was pretty deadly. Enemies were dying left, right and center. However I felt that the spores weren't spreading properly at times, my build has +235% range and sometimes enemies that were about 10m away from popped spores wouldn't contract them. I'm hoping this is a bug. The operator switch removing the spores counter is a bit annoying but this will probably get fixed. Molt was really nice, as it actually lasted longer than half a second against level 130s which provided decent cover for me and my squad. Toxic Lash is really nice now. This ability felt pointless at all levels before - your melee weapon would kill stuff quickly enough at low-mid levels, but then you would just die if you tried to melee at high levels. I went from rarely using it before this rework to basically having it active at all times. Miasma is great, really high damage and the viral procs are useful (I'd still prefer if spores had them though). One thing I particularly liked is that miasma no longer pops spores, meaning I don't have to build up all the spore damage again. 

My issue with the rework:

As a Saryn main, I enjoyed Saryn a lot because spores were viable in many aspects of the game, at all levels. However, they are rather lackluster against lower levels. Now instead we're back to having miasma being the ability that is spammed to kill low level enemies. I understand that some people may like this as it will replace the hole that ember filled before her rework, but I find this playstyle extremely boring and I don't think I'll be playing Saryn outside of sortie 3, ESO or survivals anymore. I'm not sure what to think about spores being cast-able once. As mentioned above, there is a weird issue preventing spores from spreading properly. I'm hoping that spreading spores without this bug is simple, else they should make it so you can re-cast it at least 3 times without them all popping. As for the spore's corrosive procs...I'm not a fan. Corrosive spores are just not useful especially when you have 4 CP's or are against corpus. I completely understood Pablo's logic with swapping miasma and spores' damage types (Spore has 3 procs per second on an enemy, miasma has 1 = more corrosive procs per second = faster armor reduction), but I feel that viral had much more utility against all factions and trying to spread viral with miasma is extremely energy-consuming and you have to use it quite a lot. I have a couple of ideas to make this better (Quite simple ideas, but hear me out) :

 

I mentioned something like this in a previous thread. I tested her out in the simulacrum. 20 x L155 Corrupted Bombards. Left vulnerability up to see how tanky she really is. She can take a hit, but not a direct one/two. She is pretty  tanky.

I found if I cast Toxic Lash, with the augment equipped, first then jump head long towards them casting molt as a distraction. I would cast spores and then melee them to proc the spread and the augment. Hit Miasma to halve their health then bugger off under the molt speed boost, and then switch to an ignis modded for rad viral. Stick your head around the corner and give them the occasional good news with the flamer to continue the spore spread under toxic lash..... Let's just say they all melted rather quickly. On the low end of the scale, she is not so useful with spores. 

Edited by CuChulainnWD
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SARYN - still should be the master of toxins, so she should be able to use all toxin type status and damage (Toxin, Gas, Viral and Corrosive).

1.SPORES:
-each Spore have 30% chance to inflict corrosive status per second.
-Spores don't boost their damage by them self.
-Spores damage can be boosted by applying to them toxins and gas damage type (damage applied from guns are reduced by 90% [or even more, need tests]).
-Spore duration 45 seconds, so you can't boost spores infinitely. (duration affected by power duration)
-After duration ends, spores detonate dealing 10x damage they have gathered from toxins and gas.

2.MOLT:
-Molt when detonated deals gas damage and have 100% chance to inflict gas status, that add to spores.
 

3.TOXIC LASH:
-Add toxin damage to weapons that adds to spores.

4.MIASMA:
-100% chance to inflict viral status on enemies.
-Detonates all spores after applying viral status, dealing 10x damage of spores.
-Deals 2x and 3x more damage on every enemy affected by gas and toxin status, boosting SPORES damage too
                                     one status (gas or toxin)  = 2x Miasma damage+20x spores damage 
                                     two status (gas and toxin) = 3x Miasma damage+30x spores damage

How this will work all together:
-Saryn now get benefits from Power duration. If you want to build her damage longer and stronger you need duration to keep spores longer.
-You can boost spores damage by using Molt and Toxic Lash.
-In the duration of spores you need to inflict the gas and toxin damage as fast as possible to build into the spores a massive damage.
-To make the most of damage/DPS you need to build your spores damage and then cast Miasma when spores duration is ending, making the build damage
-If players don't control situation and forget about spores duration, they will detonate inflicting 10x damage.
-If player control the situation, player will use Miasma before spores duration ends to double or even triple the gathered damage in spores.

Player need to work for the dps/damage he makes.

 

 

 

Edited by IfritKajiTora
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Further to my post earlier here is a direct comparison of before and after the rework.

Elite Onslaught with a Discharge Volt - before, at best, the best volt could match the Saryn Kills there or there abouts.  Now, they can outkill Saryn 4 or 5 times over.  Who is next for nerf I wonder?

Be under no illusion, this is not a buff.  Saryn is weaker than before and is now constantly fighting her team mates (in a co-op game) for kills just to keep her spores alive and doing any kind of significant damage.  If you play alone there aren't enough spawns to keep the spores going and if you play with a full squad you have to pray they aren't very good at killing if you want to be any use.

Before Rework - Zone 8 of Elite Onslaught with a Volt in the party meant 2500 kills for Saryn (spore and condition overload build) approx.

After Rework - Zone 8 of Elite Onslaught with a Volt in the party means around 800 kills for Saryn after a couple of tries.

Better?  I think not.

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Things I like about the rework:

- Overall Saryn is now easier to play and to understand, meaning more players will likely be interested in trying her.

- Molt is now stronger, Toxin Lash is a lot more useful and Miasma is no longer just a really expensive crowd control power.

- Saryn can survive a little bit more due to increased armor.

- New sounds are nice.

 

Things I dislike about the rework:

- Spores no longer proc Viral, which means they are useless as a debuff tool against unarmored enemies. As a consequence, Saryn is now overall less useful and less unique. She is only useful if she is doing damage and killing enemies, whereas before she could still be useful even if your Spore damage was low (because of the Viral procs on Spores).

- You can no longer recast Spores, which means you can no longer manually spread Spores by casting them at isolated enemy groups. This is yet another hit against Saryn's capabilities as a debuffer as she now has to work miracles in order to spread Spores when fighting in open areas. This also works against the infinite duration/scaling aspect of the power. What's the point of infinite duration/scaling if I can't get my Spores from one point of the map to another? Warframe is a dynamic game and enemies spawn all over the place. Even 500% Power Range would probably not cover the necessary distance.

- Your teammates can now work against you if they wipe out nearby enemies and isolate your Spores from new victims. That was already a problem before, but you didn't really worry about it because there was no infinite duration/scaling mechanic. You could afford to start over as many times as necessary and Viral procs meant damage was not the only thing Spores had to offer.

- Spore damage doesn't benefit from your equipped weapon anymore. That's bad because with a powerful weapon you used to be able to get a considerable amount of burst damage very quickly. This made Spores a very flexible power that you could quickly deploy anywhere near you. Now you have to baby-sit the damage build-up and pray for the spawns to be kind. I honestly feel like I spend more time looking at numbers now then looking at the enemies I'm fighting.

- You can no longer cast Spores on Molt. This used to be very helpful when you wanted to cast spores but your team kept killing everything and leaving you with no targets.

- Molt temporary buff should give Saryn armor, damage resistance or invisibility instead of speed. Speed is cool but it has very little use when you're overwhelmed. And that's precisely the kind of situation you want Molt to save you from.

- Currently, it only feels like Saryn is functioning properly when you play Onslaught or another similar type of endless mission that has high level enemies and a high number of enemy spawns. The previous Saryn worked well on mid level content (around level 30) as well as high level content (level 60+) and crowds of enemies were important but not mandatory.

- It feels frustrating to play the new Saryn solo because there are not enough spawns to maintain the infinite duration/scaling mechanic on Spores.

 

Things I absolutely hate about the rework:

- I have found situations where the most effective way to play the new Saryn is to cast Spores at an enemy, shoot him once and then run away and hide behind a box. Since Spores can propagate automatically you can just sit there while enemies die and spore damage builds up. Spores will still run out from time to time but due to the fact that there is absolutely no encouragement or benefit for engaging enemies you can just repeat the process.

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I tried her a bit. Overall I like this rework (I didn't like all the forced sinergies she had), but there is something that imo can be improved: with the way spores spread, having a teammate stealing kills makes impossible to make them spread and scale. Also, it's a bit of a "use and forget" ability. I think the detonation should be triggered by holding the ability button, and pressing it simply recast it on another enemy. If the problem is the scaling, maybe recasting it on a new enemy reduces the damage a bit.

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9 minutes ago, Drufo said:

I tried her a bit. Overall I like this rework (I didn't like all the forced sinergies she had), but there is something that imo can be improved: with the way spores spread, having a teammate stealing kills makes impossible to make them spread and scale. Also, it's a bit of a "use and forget" ability. I think the detonation should be triggered by holding the ability button, and pressing it simply recast it on another enemy. If the problem is the scaling, maybe recasting it on a new enemy reduces the damage a bit.

Hold to detonate, and press again to spread more spores at a reduced damage tick would certainly fix many of these issues she has imo.

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DE, Please don't overhype this rework like its a super happy exciting thing because it's not. I guess I can work with this*. If not I can always just use valkyr again. 

L8YMfve.png

Yeah my weapons do all the work as usual. Wa hah wa hah wa hah

Edited by CupcakesMoo
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Did a bit of testing with Saryn in the Simmy.
Modded for max Power Strength 299% or so, I can use Toxic Lash (Just Toxic Lash) on my Zaw Polearms or Scythes and completely annihilate them in a few swings. The damage at the table is very nice, and the scaling damage from Spores is also very helpful with that.

AoE Stun and Insta-Viral from Miasma is also a good thing, but I don't like that sometimes you're trying to cast Spores on more than one target just to realize that you're only blowing it up. Maybe make it a hold to explode, press to cast.

That's what I would like to see.

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8 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

While waiting for the update to download, may as well do some theorycrafting. 

Looks like spores will require 200% minimum power strength for the corrosive procs. 

Miasma's low base range and duration (even post-buff, 20 metres and 5 seconds are both seemingly low values when it comes to Saryn's usual kind of nuking) mean that both range and duration are required. 

Meaning, efficiency is the dump stat.  "Less energy-hungry", yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiight.    -_-     So now, Saryn needs an EV Trinity to feed them energy, in order for the Saryn to have a nuking build just as effective as pre-rework, using a 1-4 nuke style. This is with Saryn as the lone nuker. 

It just seems like Saryn's going to require a lot more work for close to the same nuking as pre-rework. 

Plus, even though 'infinitely' scaling damage sounds nice, in the time it takes damage to scale to the point where Spores would be worth using, all enemies could be killed faster through any number of alternative methods. 

And the problem with an endlessly scaling Spores, is that if there's ever a delay between spawns where no enemies are alive to carry the Spores into the next wave/group/set of enemies, she has to restart her scaling of Spores all over again by recasting to re-infect more enemies. 

This hard caps her damage in Sanctuary Onslaught, since she only ever has 2.5 minutes to scale her Spores' damage. 

 

Alternatively, in a squad of 4 Corrosive Projections, Saryn's spores would not require 200%+ power strength, but they just wouldn't be useful, considering the alternative nuking that would take its place. 

Saryn's role in nuking squads has been, traditionally, to spread viral procs, making her a unique nuking-support.  It seems that now, only her 4th ability will be useful in this regard, but now has a hard range cap.  280% of 20 metres is 56 metres, which doesn't seem like it'd cover anywhere near where Spores used to be able to cover via spreading and spam casts/pops. It's just... not ideal, and not as good as it was. 

The CC removal on subsequent casts to an already afflicted enemy is very nice, as it allows already viral'd enemies to come closer for easier nuking by other teammates. 

 

On the bright side, though, the Molt and armour buffs make her more survivable, which is very nice. 

Molt could become more of a pocket-nuke like Iron Skin with Iron Shrapnel after absorbing enough damage, but that remains to be seen. 

 

Toxic Lash was buffed in terms of damage output and cross-weapon utility, but nerfed in terms of energy utility.  So it retains more or less the same usefulness that it previously had. 

 

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

All in all, here's how I'd theoretically rate the changes to Saryn:

Squad Nuking: nerfed across the board

Solo Nuking: nerfed across the board except for in survival

Tanking: buffed across the board

Support Capabilities: 'reworked', since her 1st ability augment changing from Toxin to Corrosive limits it to solely Corrosive, instead of Viral, Gas, or Corrosive - but Corrosive is generally the most useful of those three options

Build Diversity: there are now many builds that would work, but few that would excel

 

How I'd theoretically change this:

Scrap the 'cast once and 2nd cast removes all scaling' mechanic of Spores that was just inserted into her 1st ability.  This lone mechanic brought her 1st ability into theoretical trash-tier, compared to where it was. If all affected enemies or all enemies within spreading range die, it leaves Saryn with no choice but to recast and lose all scaling to start another spread.  I would change this to a mechanic where tapping 1 would cast more Spores even after Spores are already in place, and holding 1 would detonate Spores.  Adding more Spores to an already spored target would increase scaling speed.  And detonating Spores should not remove any scaling.  Rather, much like Nidus' 100-stack maximum, there should be a limit to how much scaling can be stored up, especially since Saryn's Spore nuke is one that needs to be spread before it can even be used to its potential.  And, like Nidus' stacks, being in a Nullifier bubble should gradually lower the amount of scaling Saryn has stored up, instead of forcing the recast and instantly removing all scaling, like it theoretically should do now. 

This would make Saryn into something closer to what Nidus should've been - an infested menace that isn't always being hindered by teammates, and not always a second choice in comparison to other Warframes that can do the same job, but more efficiently.  When I can replace a Saryn with 3 Red Veil weapons and cycling the cooldowns (radial Viral procs), that's a problem. 

This rework is heading in the right direction in terms of a good place for Saryn, but the execution of her 1st and 4th ability changes was quite poor. 

Of course, everything above this point is now theoretical.  When the download cache finishes optimising, I'll provide some feedback from playtesting, below. 

<TO BE CONTINUED...>

i agree with all of this, tried several builds reforma'd once. just.. she fails. i cant keep her stacks going, or keep them spreading. teammates kill the mobs to fast. or the range is to short. Or from what i have seen, SPORES WILL NOT GO THROUGH WALLS. even if the enemy is within range. it seems los dependent. 

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