What I think is wrong with Archwing

[Godin_The_Killer]

After looking at the entire situation that is Archwing, I've come to the conclusion that pretty much everyone else has: It's absolutely terrible. But, it's not because the concept is terrible (thus meaning that it's redeemable :D). It's simply that no matter the implementation (That being archwing, sharkwing, and skywing), it's near useless, sometimes a hindering force, which for gameplay reasons, makes people simply not want to use it. That's a problem.

Now as far as what exactly I think it's wrong with it, it's multiple things really. I'mma make a list out of this, starting with the more obvious things, and going into the more lesser noted things:

 

1: The Control of AW in general is trash- What I mean by that is, in a sense, how it handles, regardless of the mode, is subpar. Looking at Archwing, it doesn't exactly feel right compared to other similar space mecha games. For a really good example of this, look at Strike Suit Zero. The controls themselves make it feel like you can go where you want to go, and that nothing is pulling on your ship/mech, something that, especially in Skywing, is existant. On top of that, hitting targets is quite easy even while moving due to there being a PiP for you to aim at. Looking at other games, such as Nier: Automata, there's a great sense of speed, which although you can tell via math, any mode, especially sharkwing, that the sense of speed is terrible. Looking at Sharkwing especially, the speed itself isn't all that great either, as Even though you're technically moving somewhat quickly given that you are in "water", given how fast you can fly through the map in any given frame, is pretty slow comparatively. Lastly, for a QoL change, the controls between the 3 modes should, for parity's sake be unified, as it is quite confusing to go through the 3 and the controls differently between the two. imo, roll should be moved to a more traditional flight layout (so q and e for the default kb layout for instance), and quick melee should be moved elsewhere.

With all of that, I'm sure it could handle a lot better.

 

2: The verity of choice between AW and normal combat is vast- Looking at the numbers, AW has 5 wings, one being a prime, and 16 weapons, two being variants. Normal combat has 45 frames, 20 of which are primes, and a hell of a lot more weapons (I'm not even going to bother to count them, it's easily close to 7-10 times the amount). This is combined with the fact that there's also more tools to regular combat's disposal, especially pets/sentinels. On top of that, due to balance issues, most people, once they even bother to sink any resources into AW, do it on very specific builds, not because meta, but because AW balance is so bad that doing otherwise makes AW even more annoying than it already is (You know, Izatal/Fluctus/Centaur/Knux builds). Considering the fact that Archwing is only about a year and a half newer than the base game (I'm going off of the Open beta release, which practically speaking is the release of Warframe), this, imo, is relating to the entire situation that not only does the community in general not like AW, and don't really care about it due to it not really being a major aspect of the game in the slightest besides a few roadblocks (Imma get to that later), that DE themselves look at AW as not important at all; that they have better things to make rather than fixing a, what should be major aspect of the game by now considering that it was released around 3 and a half years ago.

imo, what needs to happen is a full balance pass on literally everything AW, including reworks to how the wings work to make the current stuff used. On top of that, new weapons and wings needs to be made, primes included.

 

3: AW needs to be more entwined into the normal flow- So, this one is imo the most complex one, as it'll require a lot of changes to the base game. To explain it, I want to look at the Jordas Assassinate. When I did it in the quest, this was one of the first "Holy crap, that was cool" moments, and the reason why is not the actual fighting, it was the transition from Warframe to AW that both threw me off, and had me wowed. That was the first time that I actually enjoyed, even if for a short while, AW. This feeling was brought back when I did the Jordas raid that one single time as well. Saying all that, I firmly believe that, if AW was in a better state, the game would be in a better place if missions better combined both modes. And no, I'm not talking about how Sharkwing is implemented, where it's for the most part optional (and in those cases, avoided as it doesn't do anything but slow you down); take in the case of ship missions like on Sedna or Saturn: In it, say on a exterminate, you could reach a section of the ship where you have 2 options. You either continue as usual, or you can burst open the ship, say at a window, allow yourself to be sucked out, and be able to not only obtain AW exclusive rewards (ex. Tellurium), but you could get a higher number of enemies to fight, or even a different objective, netting a reward for completion (ex. you're now tasked with blowing up the ship rather than just killing everyone on board, and doing so gives you extra resources or special resources or something). In the cases that already exists, namely sharkwing and Skywing, I believe that, assuming the feel of them are fixed, if going into those modes looked more interesting (and in the case of sharkwing actually made sense, considering it just appears out of nowhere), and then were made meaningful (More rewards, in the case of skywing being able to use AW weapons, etc.) they would feel more worth while to actually use.

To implement this would obviously take a lot. imo, starting with the closest possible major update (so probably the one after The Sacrifice, or the one after Venus if Venus isn't in the Sacrifice, or the one after that), it should be focused mostly on AW. After that, bits and pieces should be added in from there on. I mean, given how old AW really is, I think it deserves it.

 

4: Trying to invest in AW is expensive and not explained well- Looking at getting new frames and equipment as a new player is fairly straight forward. For the most part, doing assassinates, doing Junctions, and randomly in missions, you can get new crap; to kill with. With AW, it's quite different; Most of the stuff is tied behind the dojo, which isn't ever really talked about ingame, so unless you go look it up, you won't know this. Additionally, the parts for some weapons are tied behind syndicates, which given that there's very few in the first place, and that those are base weapons, make it to where the vast majority of people end up using very few AW weapons. This is terrible for progression's sake. This needs to be reworked along with the expansion of the choice so that at least most of the weapons are easily obtainable in the wild (meaning through normal progression, so in the market as normal weapon/wing BP's, in junctions, and if there's parts, those can be found in the starmap during missions).

 

5: AW should be tied into the tutorial of the game- This is going on with #3, in that AW would be more integrated with the actual game. Although you do get "The Archwing" quest fairly early, nothing is well explained, even compared to the fairly barebones (but improving) explanations for things such as weapon customization. given this, I believe that this should change to where The Archwing is changed to be an integration into the tutorial, a part 2 to the tutorial if you will.

Currently, to start The Archwing, you have to make it all the way to the Mars Junction to actually start dealing with AW. This imo should change to take place right after you deal with Vor, and this is how: When you first take out Vor, you will be prompted by the Lotus that the Queens sent a Fomorian to take out the base, so that not only you, but Vor and his loyalists could be taken out (them being angry at Vor essentially), and that you need to quickly escape. On your way to extraction, your liset had to bail due to the fomorian, however the Lotus has found a cache containing a Archwing prototype for you to use, and then directs you to that location.

Once you get there, another change will happen; instead of being forced to use Odanta, Imperator, and Veritux, you will now be given a selection of gear to choose from (so 2 or 3 of the wings, same for each weapon type). Once you pick it, then you will exit via a gate or window or something via a cinematic exit, and then make your way to a set exit point. It could even be like how the current tutorial is, where it changes the actual extractions, and between those teaches you different archwing things, such as how to use the abilities, how the weapons work, etc. Then you extract, and continue on with your life.

 

That's all I got for now.

 

BLUB

Edited May 21, 2018 by Godin_The_Killer
new content

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Long story short: archwing was designed as a separate part of the game, just as random and disjointed from the core gameplay expierience as most of the new things we get. And abandoned because of that.

[Godin_The_Killer]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Long story short: archwing was designed as a separate part of the game, just as random and disjointed from the core gameplay expierience as most of the new things we get. And abandoned because of that.

It's the worst offender let's say. There's the Arena mode, which has gotten the best support, there's raids, which were removed to get that much of a rework, there's Operator, which has expanded over time for usefulness with every passing update for them, and then there's Open World content, which in the past 6 months has gotten more love than AW has in 3 and half years. Everything else, even clans, are more intertwined to the core game.

[DeltaStorms]

I agree with 3. If arch-wing became more integrated with the core game in interesting ways, people probably would love arch wing. Imagine playing a Corpus Exterminate, and then a Balor Formorian suddenly showing up and #*!%ing everything up, forcing you to get into Arch Wing to extract and escape from the sudden onslaught of Grineer. That'd be #*!%ing awesome if done right.

[Falconer777]

I also would like more development of archwing in the game. This regime has good interesting potential. Which, in my opinion, more corresponds to the idea of Warframe, than Cetus. We are fighting throughout the solar system, and one of the main vehicles for the battles in space for some reason has not been properly developed.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

6 hours ago, Godin_The_Killer said:

It's the worst offender let's say. There's the Arena mode, which has gotten the best support, there's raids, which were removed to get that much of a rework, there's Operator, which has expanded over time for usefulness with every passing update for them, and then there's Open World content, which in the past 6 months has gotten more love than AW has in 3 and half years. Everything else, even clans, are more intertwined to the core game.

 Operator in its current state is a detriment to the gameplay even worse than overpowered melee weapons. Focus is the worst offender. Not archwing. Archwing is harmless compared to having on-demand invincibility button; and a set of mechanics that duplicate and replace the existing gameplay but in a degraded form, while being enforced by bandaids like enemy invincibility. Archwing is nothing compared to that. The only mess that comes even close is Void 2.0 and relic system, that already tangled itself in an incomrehensible mess of Relic M-whatevers that don't make sense as a valid reward; completely unintuitive for a new player, considering the insane variety of the relics; while also lowering the overall price of primed gear present in the game due to inherent leeching incentive that's present in the Fissure system design.

[BlackCoMerc]

That it still exists at all...

After two years without even a functional movement system that doesn't make half of the 16 people still playing the mode twice a month physically sick, I can't think of a bigger waste of Dev time than DoArchwing...

[BlackCoMerc]

4 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Operator in its current state is a detriment to the gameplay even worse than overpowered melee weapons. Focus is the worst offender. Not archwing. Archwing is harmless compared to having on-demand invincibility button; and a set of mechanics that duplicate and replace the existing gameplay but in a degraded form, while being enforced by bandaids like enemy invincibility. Archwing is nothing compared to that. The only mess that comes even close is Void 2.0 and relic system, that already tangled itself in an incomrehensible mess of Relic M-whatevers that don't make sense as a valid reward; completely unintuitive for a new player, considering the insane variety of the relics; while also lowering the overall price of primed gear present in the game due to inherent leeching incentive that's present in the Fissure system design.

Well said.

God Operator was a waste of Dev time. I mean, the game already has this AMAZING movement and combat system.

And they spend years on a second system that is strictly subpar to the existing one in literally every imaginable way...

Operator is awkward, with delayed transition, forced stop after dash. Too fragile, except when utterly Invulnerable...slow and clumsy and weak.

But hey, it can make crap enemy design very slightly less crap...and that's the BEST thing it does.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

That it still exists at all...

After two years without even a functional movement system that doesn't make half of the 16 people still playing the mode twice a month physically sick, I can't think of a bigger waste of Dev time than DoArchwing...

The problem is, if you start stripping down all the disjointed useless mechanics from Warframe, there will be no Warframe left. Warframe is just that: a bunch of mechanics randomly thrown in the same package. It's a jigsaw puzzle that nobody bothered to piece together.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

The problem is, if you start stripping down all the disjointed useless mechanics from Warframe, there will be no Warframe left. Warframe is just that: a bunch of mechanics randomly thrown in the same package. It's a jigsaw puzzle that nobody bothered to piece together.

Again, this utterly nails it.

Just because you have top notch animators and a collection of second rate mechanics, doesn't mean you have a coherent, cohesive GAME. One isn't the same as the other.

And then they tacked on Warframe 2: Clunky the Space Kid...and acted all surprised when people didn't like their second, subpar combat system...

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Well said.

God Operator was a waste of Dev time. I mean, the game already has this AMAZING movement and combat system.

And they spend years on a second system that is strictly subpar to the existing one in literally every imaginable way...

Operator is awkward, with delayed transition, forced stop after dash. Too fragile, except when utterly Invulnerable...slow and clumsy and weak.

But hey, it can make crap enemy design very slightly less crap...and that's the BEST thing it does.

 That's the thing, it doesn't change enemy design. At all. It's a bandaid, of a bandaid, of a bandaid tied into a complicated knot that DE by this point are probably too terrified to touch. It was a forced stillborn concept from the very beginning, that came out of the Wait Within production Hell; and it still haunts the game almost two years (?) later. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Again, this utterly nails it.

Just because you have top notch animators and a collection of second rate mechanics, doesn't mean you have a coherent, cohesive GAME. One isn't the same as the other.

And then they tacked on Warframe 2: Clunky the Space Kid...and acted all surprised when people didn't like their second, subpar combat system...

It could have been something though. The concept itself wasn't that bad at its core.

EDIT: Same as with archwing. If it was designed with the gameplay context in mind, it might have been a whole different story.

Edited May 20, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Mach25]

*whistles* Now those are some awesome concepts!

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

how about a TOTAL lack of support from DE?

[Noxin]

I believe a lot of the issues about the feeling of Archwing can be fixed if they dared to make it a bit more scripted and have it have some railshooter segments where there's a lot more cinematic bits between the phases of the mission or chasing of a boss.

Take the Fomorian events, getting in and out of a core is superbly anticlimactic, had it been a trench run in and out, maybe on a rail, the players could focus more on dodging structures and shooting enemies rather than navigating by the objective marker (that sometimes doesn't properly update).

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, Noxin said:

I believe a lot of the issues about the feeling of Archwing can be fixed if they dared to make it a bit more scripted and have it have some railshooter segments where there's a lot more cinematic bits between the phases of the mission or chasing of a boss.

Take the Fomorian events, getting in and out of a core is superbly anticlimactic, had it been a trench run in and out, maybe on a rail, the players could focus more on dodging structures and shooting enemies rather than navigating by the objective marker (that sometimes doesn't properly update).

 That would kill the feeling of flight, whatever little there is of it. The whole point of archwing is to give warframes wings and freedom of flight. What you're suggesting would basically turn archwing gameplay into an unskippable cutscene, or QTE shooting gallery. Are you sure that's what you'd wanna see in Warframe?

[Noxin]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 That would kill the feeling of flight, whatever little there is of it. The whole point of archwing is to give warframes wings and freedom of flight. What you're suggesting would basically turn archwing gameplay into an unskippable cutscene, or QTE shooting gallery. Are you sure that's what you'd wanna see in Warframe?

"some" 

It's to solve the handling issues in areas it needs to feel like it's going fast. I didn't say everywhere in every mission c; heck, I didn't even say for whole missions!

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 minutes ago, Noxin said:

"some" 

It's to solve the handling issues in areas it needs to feel like it's going fast. I didn't say everywhere in every mission c; heck, I didn't even say for whole missions!

handling issues are everywhere on archwing maps. Even on a literal empty space map there used to be handling issues (dunno if they fixed that now).

Edited May 20, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

I love Archwing and I agree with the OP. I want to see more AW missions. I want to use my AW weapons, which took me forever to level up, in the Plains. I personally can enjoy AW just for the joy of it, but I think it's been proven that rewards are more enticing for most.

Mini-Rant on the AW Movement and DE's many Changes to It:

I want classic AW movement back as an option without any of the recent changes. It took me forever to "master" classic AW movement. I was the person that was 2000m away from the extraction site, still running into walls, for a very long time. Just as I achieved "mastery" they introduced an entire new nausea-inducing iteration. Then they, mercifully, gave us the option between the two. Then they introduced Plains and no option feels right for me and like the OP said, but in different words, there's "mystery meat" movement between the different AW mission types or locations. MR25 test was hell, because my brain kept trying to use classic AW movement, when it was Plains AW movement. Cohesion and consistency are much needed.

My Strange Theory on How to Entice Players to AW:

I say, give them Itzal and Fluctus in the beginning! It wasn't until I got these that I was able to experiment with and understand AW. Now that I've gotten used to AW and have mainly used these items, it feels like it's time for me to move on to more challenging AW weapons and archwings. I have them all and even took the time to put at least two forma in all archwings and at least one forma in all arch-weapons. As a new player I felt powerless in AW alerts; at the end of the mission I would have only a third of the kills as the rest of the squad, unless they were all new. My reasoning is that if you give them the powerful stuff up front they will enjoy it more and eventually become curious about what other items offer in AW. I think Itzal is to AW what Rhino is to WF; they allow the new player to get the hang of things without an overly frustrating experience.

Archwing Relevancy and Integration:

Currently, the incentives for participating in Archwing are AW quest, AW mods, completing the star chart and codex scans. I believe it is still possible to get AW parts on some nodes. Also, there are AW missions that reward relics. The problem I perceive is that once you've gotten all the mods, the reward screen feels "empty" at the end of the AW missions. This is true for many non-AW missions, but usually there's a decent resource found on the mission. My solution to better integrate and make AW relevant is to add more AW missions, introduce AW fissures and new AW mission types. Ultimately, Tenno farm relics and prime parts after they've gained mastery for everything else. If AW isn't somehow relevant to the relic and prime parts system, then it is going to continue to fall by the wayside. 

 

[Noxin]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

handling issues are everywhere on archwing maps. Even on a literal empty space map there used to be handling issues (dunno if they fixed that now).

Yeah, I'm noticing this highly annoying pull, usually downwards and it's especially noticeable on the plains. Saw it a bit in the Fomorian event too.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

I've said this before, what they need is a lock on mode. Locking onto a target and having the system orient you to that target makes the whole system a lot easier to interface with. Basically you choose that ship, that enemy, as they move they stay centered, allowing you to dash in towards them and take evasive action appropriately. Also they need to do a better job with alerting you to incoming projectiles, I am sick of surface to air missiles kicking me out of aw without warning... 

Another thing is reducing inertia, and having different button mapping... I would very much like the "rush" to not be a toggle, I know they have forward thrust, and then afterburners, but it would be nice to have that handled in a more controllable manor because usually what you need is a little burst and instead you end up rocketing off way further than you meant to go....

And also most of the weapons need a pass, and absolutely all of the melee weapons need an animation and action rework..

[Godin_The_Killer]

7 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 That's the thing, it doesn't change enemy design. At all. It's a bandaid, of a bandaid, of a bandaid tied into a complicated knot that DE by this point are probably too terrified to touch. It was a forced stillborn concept from the very beginning, that came out of the Wait Within production Hell; and it still haunts the game almost two years (?) later. 

Regardless, that's beside the point. My post is on AW. Let's stick to that.

[Godin_The_Killer]

6 hours ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

My Strange Theory on How to Entice Players to AW:

I say, give them Itzal and Fluctus in the beginning! It wasn't until I got these that I was able to experiment with and understand AW. Now that I've gotten used to AW and have mainly used these items, it feels like it's time for me to move on to more challenging AW weapons and archwings.

 

I don't think this will work for the sole reason that people tend to side on using meta items only. Giving people the meta at the start will make it not only not challenging, but it will make it to where people won't likely expand to other wings and weapons.

 

However, I do think that it would be interesting to allow people to have a selection, similar to how the tutorial mission works.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I've only played one game in the last two years where I found I loved the flight mechanics and that was Strike Vector Ex...prior to that title I enjoyed playing as the flying Science Class from Fall of Cybertron... it's due to that pop and lock style of hit and run that I found to be quite enjoyable...now Archwing on the other hand is not fun at all.

It's sloppy and it's frustrating, and it feels made that way so no one can cheese POE. I don't know, I'd probably reduce its altitude, but allow it better control so you can skim the ground while having fun skating around the terrain's obstacles...currently as is though, I'd rather use my Operator to teleport all over the place than waste my time with an Archwing.

Edited May 21, 2018 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Godin_The_Killer]

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Operator in its current state is a detriment to the gameplay even worse than overpowered melee weapons. Focus is the worst offender. Not archwing. Archwing is harmless compared to having on-demand invincibility button; and a set of mechanics that duplicate and replace the existing gameplay but in a degraded form, while being enforced by bandaids like enemy invincibility. Archwing is nothing compared to that. The only mess that comes even close is Void 2.0 and relic system, that already tangled itself in an incomrehensible mess of Relic M-whatevers that don't make sense as a valid reward; completely unintuitive for a new player, considering the insane variety of the relics; while also lowering the overall price of primed gear present in the game due to inherent leeching incentive that's present in the Fissure system design.

1: You are talking about things of balance. I'm talking about integration to the actual game. Everything involving the operator is directly tied to normal gameplay.

2: It's irrelevant to the conversation at hand, which is AW. Stay on topic please.