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Why not tell us what the Saryn changes will be?


YpsitheFlintsider
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The reason why there is so much cynicism between the community and Digital Extremes, despite how much effort is actually put into fostering a connected environment, is because of how unclear the developers are with changes to gameplay. We all know the players aren't always right. Those responses are generally pretty easy to weed through. But there's no reason why we can't be told what the changes to Saryn will actually be. We're playing the frame. We have figured out firsthand what her build actually has to be to be successful at all (hint: it's a lot). Yet, there's no checking in with us. There's no dialogue. There's just, "Oh, we see a few complaints that she's inconsistent in the starchart. BUT OH BOY ONSLAUGHT, SHES STOMPING THERE. GOTTA MAKE CHANGES". You know who else we heard similar things about? Ember. Except, she destroyed the starchart and sucked elsewhere. And now she just sucks everywhere. So before you go and make your changes, maybe you should ask why we're sacrificing like, 5 modslots just for range and strength to make spores last for even 10 seconds. There's no reason why it should be a surprise what's going to happen with Saryn next week. People are investing in the frame right now. They should be able to know if it's worthwhile.

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They don’t have the official changes planned out to be clearly stated to use. We’re all POed right now over saryn because we were ticked that they were buffing her instead of frames that need it more like Wukong or Vauban. Only to then to decide to (very likely) render all that effort pointless because these “big changes” can mean nothing more than NERF.

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They don’t have the official changes planned out to be clearly stated to use. We’re all POed right now over saryn because we were ticked that they were buffing her instead of frames that need it more like Wukong or Vauban. Only to then to decide to (very likely) render all that effort pointless because these “big changes” can mean nothing more than NERF.

i like her changes. she has way more synergy now. and endless damage scaling.

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13 minutes ago, YpsitheFlintsider said:

But there's no reason why we can't be told what the changes to Saryn will actually be. 

You should probably follow the devs on twitter, instead of making these types of posts imho [EDIT: in regard to the opening sentence].

Pablo posted to his twitter feed that there is nothing yet. What they have decided is what they've conveyed;  that a change is needed.

from his post, it looks like they are simply testing various things. Nothing getting locked down any time soon either, as changes need lots of prototyping. 

Edited by MillbrookWest
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Just now, Senketsu_ said:

i like her changes. she has way more synergy now. and endless damage scaling.

...it’s not a matter of whether or not you like them! I like them too, but that doesn’t mean Vauban or monkey boy are getting any improvements. You read everything I said and took away from it the least important part.

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It's a long weekend here in Canada. Pablo's got ideas he probably jot down somewhere, itching to code up when back to work on Tuesday. You can try asking him via twitter but I doubt he can go into specifics without actually designing and testing it out first.

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I'm assuming you are talking about pablo's twitter comment about changing saryn some more. A tweet that went out yesterday: Saturday DE time. No one is the office to create or dispense information about saryn changes, they literally don't exist yet. Considering a dev took some time out of their personal time to tweet "more changes coming" that's plenty of open communication.

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You knowingly latch and invest into an outlier and act all wowey wooey when its getting fixed.

Maybe this is why they dont share the finer details? Just look at the current threads on her.

Edited by Misgenesis
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Probably because they don't have any concrete ideas yet?

Pablo btw in his tweet responded to another person saying he's looking to address her power in SO while making her stronger in the start chart.  Which in case you live under a rock has been one of the bigger complaints about saryn's rework so far.  Plus a lot of people, myself included don't enjoy the interaction of her ability in ESO or how your damage goes away completely and has to start from scratch once they're deactivated.

But sure, sweep it under the "NERF REEEEEEEE" mentality rug.  Whatever helps you sleep.

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4 hours ago, Senketsu_ said:

i like her changes. she has way more synergy now. and endless damage scaling.

You see, my response is going to be kind of salty purely out of the choice of words you decided upon. I will say she "feels" a bit better to play (only because the way Spores and Viral function makes sense to swap the damage types) even while she also feels weaker (in burst damage terms). However...

She has way more synergy? Not "forced" synergy at that (one of the biggest complaints about her before)? She actually has the same amount of synergy. DE however increased the incentive to use Toxic Lash and Miasma while removing the synergy of Molt completely. They could've accomplished as much by just making the Molt (increased survivability) and Toxic Lash (increased usability) changes and forcing armor damage on Miasma (also increased range); and not touch anything about Spores and their interaction with toxin (though they were free to clean up that interaction). You still technically need Spore to maximize the damage of Miasma (not that in the grand scheme of things did that ever matter).

Spores are not endless "scaling" damage also. They ramp up (in similar way Nidus ramps up) but its not endless and its not scaled. They cap at 100k damage per tick per Spore. It certainly is a lot of damage but it is flat damage (much like max stack Nidus) and the fact we can (by our own volition) have enemies exceed those limitations, technically that damage usefulness diminishes as we go higher. In reality, the premature end of a Spore cycle is hugely crippling.

I just find it funny how people feel about "synergy" when they just move the damage around. You technically still don't need to use Miasma (though Viral is great) or Toxic Lash (though there is no reason not to as a universal damage bonus) but now you cant front-load Spores with damage and have to let it ramp up. And on most things you will have to restart the process... a lot and that was never a problem of previous Saryn.


Now, I am sure they probably don't have a solid idea on how they'll address Saryn now. Honestly I can't even think of a way to limit Spores in elite that wont just be an overall nerf. Because if they made her Spore "damage growth" slowing decay when no Spores are active, which would help the rest of the game interactions, it would still help elite the same.

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1 hour ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

You see, my response is going to be kind of salty purely out of the choice of words you decided upon. I will say she "feels" a bit better to play (only because the way Spores and Viral function makes sense to swap the damage types) even while she also feels weaker (in burst damage terms). However...

She has way more synergy? Not "forced" synergy at that (one of the biggest complaints about her before)? She actually has the same amount of synergy. DE however increased the incentive to use Toxic Lash and Miasma while removing the synergy of Molt completely. They could've accomplished as much by just making the Molt (increased survivability) and Toxic Lash (increased usability) changes and forcing armor damage on Miasma (also increased range); and not touch anything about Spores and their interaction with toxin (though they were free to clean up that interaction). You still technically need Spore to maximize the damage of Miasma (not that in the grand scheme of things did that ever matter).

Spores are not endless "scaling" damage also. They ramp up (in similar way Nidus ramps up) but its not endless and its not scaled. They cap at 100k damage per tick per Spore. It certainly is a lot of damage but it is flat damage (much like max stack Nidus) and the fact we can (by our own volition) have enemies exceed those limitations, technically that damage usefulness diminishes as we go higher. In reality, the premature end of a Spore cycle is hugely crippling.

I just find it funny how people feel about "synergy" when they just move the damage around. You technically still don't need to use Miasma (though Viral is great) or Toxic Lash (though there is no reason not to as a universal damage bonus) but now you cant front-load Spores with damage and have to let it ramp up. And on most things you will have to restart the process... a lot and that was never a problem of previous Saryn.


Now, I am sure they probably don't have a solid idea on how they'll address Saryn now. Honestly I can't even think of a way to limit Spores in elite that wont just be an overall nerf. Because if they made her Spore "damage growth" slowing decay when no Spores are active, which would help the rest of the game interactions, it would still help elite the same.

Spores limit themselves because of the terrible spawn rates and points on most of the maps, and also, enemies seem to want to run away or around us for some reason.

At the moment, Saryn's effectiveness depends on saturation of the map (and mostly Grineer, because she's kind of booty against Corpus and not the greatest against Infested). So she's inconsistent in low levels, but in a mode like onslaught, there's enough people where damage can ramp up and scale like it's supposed to. I think spore spread should be more consistent, but could do less damage.

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37 minutes ago, YpsitheFlintsider said:

Spores limit themselves because of the terrible spawn rates and points on most of the maps, and also, enemies seem to want to run away or around us for some reason.

At the moment, Saryn's effectiveness depends on saturation of the map (and mostly Grineer, because she's kind of booty against Corpus and not the greatest against Infested). So she's inconsistent in low levels, but in a mode like onslaught, there's enough people where damage can ramp up and scale like it's supposed to. I think spore spread should be more consistent, but could do less damage.

I am not sure of the point you are trying to get across.

Yes, Spores depends on enemy saturation/density; I already implied that. "In reality, the premature end of a Spore cycle is hugely crippling." or "And on most things you will have to restart the process... a lot and that was never a problem of previous Saryn."  To which, if they let you save your damage growth in some way you partially circumvent this particular problem because her spores will just be stronger the more you use them and spread them. They would likely have to reduce/remove the double "growth" damage burst when you detonate them or just go back to multi-casts (which imo would be great). However this particular solution (depending on the exact save/decay implementation) would present some problems because Spores can get around, building that growth and ravaging/decimating everything until that eventual cap of 100k (which most people aren't going to reach enemy levels where it would matter) without proper limitations. And it certainly doesn't weaken it for ESO which is likely part of the reason they "have" to look at it again.

So I don't know what you mean by less damage or more consistent spore spread. They ramp up, so you could cut their damage in half and they will still meet any specific number in double the current time. You can't reduce their damage meaningfully as long as they function they way they do. They can reduce the cap which as long as its above 10k we are still looking at a powerful ramp up for a 1 for its area of influence but that isn't even the problem with them right now. I will say "something feels off" (aka I don't think it is a LoS issue; something a bit less obvious) with her spread but even so I haven't had huge problems with spreading.

Also this particular revisit helped her greatly with grineer, next nothing for infested (they honestly didn't care either way though I suppose the burst damage could still overwhelm them quicker), and only lessened her with corpus because she isn't destroying them with toxin spread on Spores. She is still however tearing through them with Toxic Lash like she could before but now she can do it with guns. Throw out a buffed Miasma for Viral if you need to as well.

Even while I really preferred "Toxin Burst" Saryn, saying she wasn't helped with this revisit would be a lie. She is only a few changes away from be consistently stronger than any of her previous incarnations. Whether DE will or wants to make those changes is up to them.

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6 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

I am not sure of the point you are trying to get across.

Yes, Spores depends on enemy saturation/density; I already implied that. "In reality, the premature end of a Spore cycle is hugely crippling." or "And on most things you will have to restart the process... a lot and that was never a problem of previous Saryn."  To which, if they let you save your damage growth in some way you partially circumvent this particular problem because her spores will just be stronger the more you use them and spread them. They would likely have to reduce/remove the double "growth" damage burst when you detonate them or just go back to multi-casts (which imo would be great). However this particular solution (depending on the exact save/decay implementation) would present some problems because Spores can get around, building that growth and ravaging/decimating everything until that eventual cap of 100k (which most people aren't going to reach enemy levels where it would matter) without proper limitations. And it certainly doesn't weaken it for ESO which is likely part of the reason they "have" to look at it again.

So I don't know what you mean by less damage or more consistent spore spread. They ramp up, so you could cut their damage in half and they will still meet any specific number in double the current time. You can't reduce their damage meaningfully as long as they function they way they do. They can reduce the cap which as long as its above 10k we are still looking at a powerful ramp up for a 1 for its area of influence but that isn't even the problem with them right now. I will say "something feels off" (aka I don't think it is a LoS issue; something a bit less obvious) with her spread but even so I haven't had huge problems with spreading.

Also this particular revisit helped her greatly with grineer, next nothing for infested (they honestly didn't care either way though I suppose the burst damage could still overwhelm them quicker), and only lessened her with corpus because she isn't destroying them with toxin spread on Spores. She is still however tearing through them with Toxic Lash like she could before but now she can do it with guns. Throw out a buffed Miasma for Viral if you need to as well.

Even while I really preferred "Toxin Burst" Saryn, saying she wasn't helped with this revisit would be a lie. She is only a few changes away from be consistently stronger than any of her previous incarnations. Whether DE will or wants to make those changes is up to them.

Oh I certainly agree, and this pretty much turned her into one of, if not my most, my favorite frames. I just hope whatever they do with her puts her in a sweet spot where players can still enjoy her but feels balanced in low level and higher level content.

As for the "something feels off" thing, I wonder if it's the angle in which the spores actually spread. As in, what is the cone or area in which the next person would be infected? Because one of the main things I heard at first was "enemies right by spored enemies who died wouldn't be affected, but an enemy a little further away would."

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On 2018-05-20 at 7:36 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

...it’s not a matter of whether or not you like them! I like them too, but that doesn’t mean Vauban or monkey boy are getting any improvements. You read everything I said and took away from it the least important part.

i feel Nyx needs more attention then those twp

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They haven't told us because, in all likelihood, they don't have any details to share right now. And even if they did, they probably wouldn't be finalized. And even if they were finalized, DE can't feasibly update us in real time on every change they're planning to make, or even every major change. They have actual work to do.

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Why? Isn't that painfully obvious? All they can release are concepts. It takes untill the testing, literally till the release untill they see if a concept works out or not. If it doesn't, they have to change it. Worst case from scratch. Consequently they'd be called liars, people would ask for refunds and it would be a awkward situation for everyone.

It would be No Man's sky all over again. They want to avoid that for obvious reasons is my call. 

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108
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Saryn is the only Prime I bought, because I really loved her. If they break her badly Im done putting in any RL cash. I try to support this game when I can, but the devs are on my last nerve with this game lol.

 I feel like leaving a year and then seeing what's been done. It's a waste of time and money right now to deal with all the changes over and over. I think their main issue with all these buffs/changes is they dont have a clue what they want their game to be. Is it going to stay like the old tilesets? tons of enemies you can clear? Or do they want things more like plains? Less enemies overall, but more challenging? They have to PICK. It will be impossible to find any kind of balance in this game the way it is. Too many modes, too many weps, too many frames, too many mods and builds. They need to have a solid roadmap of where they are taking us, or were going to be looking at these reworks for years more as they try to figure it out. 

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On 2018-05-20 at 7:21 PM, YpsitheFlintsider said:

The reason why there is so much cynicism between the community and Digital Extremes, despite how much effort is actually put into fostering a connected environment, is because of how unclear the developers are with changes to gameplay. We all know the players aren't always right. Those responses are generally pretty easy to weed through. But there's no reason why we can't be told what the changes to Saryn will actually be. We're playing the frame. We have figured out firsthand what her build actually has to be to be successful at all (hint: it's a lot). Yet, there's no checking in with us. There's no dialogue. There's just, "Oh, we see a few complaints that she's inconsistent in the starchart. BUT OH BOY ONSLAUGHT, SHES STOMPING THERE. GOTTA MAKE CHANGES". You know who else we heard similar things about? Ember. Except, she destroyed the starchart and sucked elsewhere. And now she just sucks everywhere. So before you go and make your changes, maybe you should ask why we're sacrificing like, 5 modslots just for range and strength to make spores last for even 10 seconds. There's no reason why it should be a surprise what's going to happen with Saryn next week. People are investing in the frame right now. They should be able to know if it's worthwhile.

The patch notes aren't out yet. Chill the #*!% out.

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"why not tell us about Saryn changes?" 

Maybe because they aren't done mocking up the changes yet. 

Maybe because of knee-jerk reactions. (see: what is already happening) 

Maybe because they put Pablo on this UI overhaul and that is taking his time away from Saryn. 

Maybe all of them. 

Idk, i can only speculate, since I'm not Pablo. These threads aren't going to do a whole lot of good though. Talk about what you like/dislike about current Saryn, and when they talk about balancing her, make judgements then. If there is enough well-made criticism of the balances, they will take another look I'm sure. 

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On 2018-05-22 at 7:32 AM, Senketsu_ said:

i feel Nyx needs more attention then those twp

She could use some major modernization and synergy. And rework her Psychic Bolts. The most useless ability ingame. She used to be my favorite. Though that Two Others have risen to that... 

 

About Saryn I was thinking making it so only dmg by Toxic Lash would increase the dmg Spores do ( so they wont ramp up on their own ) but Ancients would make her useless so... No.

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