Ember is Far From Okay

[HRD654]

So, I'm usually not one to complain but, DE, you really need to give Ember a deep dive and figure out what you want to do with her. I am going to start by stating that I do NOT want her old World on Fire range back. Let me make this clear right from the start; I like Ember because she is one of the few frames that actually requires movement in order to use properly. The problem is that the last time you touched her she was left in a place that is more awkward than anything else. So she is supposed to be a DPS frame that sacrifices defense for offense, sure, I got that; the problem is she does not actually work for that kind of play currently. Her last change effectively changed nothing for low level play (the stated intention when the change was rolled out) and made her incredibly ineffective for damage at high level. Fireball takes forever and a day to charge, which means Ember players have to sit in place and die trying to use it and World on Fire is not effective without stacking Accelerant at high level. So you have Accelerant + World on Fire being required at high level plus an increase in energy drain once her meter hits 100%.

Ember is not, and never has been, about DPS at high level. A lot of players like to bring up her Firequake augment, but personally I hardly even use it because she USED to be good at CC at high level. Now she is is next to useless for CC, she cannot DPS because fire is a horrible element that has way too many weaknesses for it to be useful for damage, and she does not have enough EHP to stay alive without World on Fire stun locking enemies. I know you are a bunch of talented developers, but it is moves like this that leave people with a bad taste in your mouth. Ember has been significantly changed five times since I have started playing in Update 8 and only two of those have actually left her in a place that is not lacking. I get that it is hard, but it is very frustrating seeing this happen to one of my favorite warframes over and over again. Ember is not even that popular (as far as I know, maybe I'm wrong) so making her even less popular by nerfing her and leaving her in a broken state is kind of asinine. Sure there were complaints of World on Fire killing enemies in low level before other players even saw them, but I am possitive you could have found a better way to fix that than this... whatever the hell you even call the state you left her in. Also, you did not even solve the problem.

I am sorry, but I just had to vent my frustration because, as I stated previously, Ember is one of my favorites and I love the way she plays. The fact of the matter is you ruined her by making her abilities clash with your overall design philosophy for her. If you want Ember to be pure DPS with little defense giver her a full rework because that is what she will need. Tweaking her existing abilities will never line up with what you want her to be because that is not what she was in the beginning. If you want Ember to focus on damage and movement over defense the first thing you need to do is raise the base damage of all of her abilities; the second thing you need to do is get rid of this overwhelming compulsion to have her use all of her energy within the first five minutes of a mission. Right now it is a requirement for her to use both Accerlant and World on Fire to do decent damage to enemies. I do not know if anyone at DE will actually read this, but if they do I would like to thank them for taking the time out of their day. I know you have a lot going on at the moment and if you do decide to make changes I am not expecting them soon; really I just wanted to voice my frustration.

[traybong111]

Yes, I feel like DE really doesn't know what to do with Ember. Ember has existed for 5 years in Warframe--first as the worst, and I do mean the absolute worst frame with 15 armor, no CC, no damage, nothing--and in those years DE's attempts at improving Ember have been...questionable would be the diplomatic word. I remember a good chunk of Ember users (myself included) arguing against World on Fire becoming channel ability (since, even back then, WoF's range or damage wasn't anything to write home about) and just asking for a different ability altogether, but not much came of numerous feedback and suggestions on reworking Ember's kit.

And then DE nerfed Fire Blast's damage because I don't f*cking know. 

Now that I see Saryn's 3 adds toxin damage to all her weapons, something Ember needs an Augment mod for, my salt level has reached inhuman levels. I've kinda given up hope and half-accepted that DE intends Ember to stay a lowbie frame. Don't get me wrong, trying to make her work beyond L100+ is difficult and rewarding; just building & experimenting status arsenals centered around Flash Accelerant has kept me engaged for a long time. But DE either being blind to their own f*cking game or just ignoring the vast power gap between her and frames like Equinox, Mesa, Nidus, Nova, Octavia, Saryn etc and calling her "glass canon" infuriates me. 

Fire Blast needs to be a better CC and/or defense instead of a half-a$$ed attempt to mix offense and CC. World on Fire is an outdated ability, it was outdated back in U14, and it needed to be the first 4 ability to get decapitated when DE started axing AoE nuke ults. If her 3 knocks enemies back, her 4 could be a flash fire that creates mass oxygen deprivation and vacuum pulling enemies towards her, and maybe heat proc could create smoke that gives accuracy debuff, etc etc...

Edited May 21, 2018 by traybong111
grammar, paragraph break

[Djego27]

Well I suggest adding the toxic lash damage bonus to all weapons quite a bit as a Ember main, given that Saryn has a lot harder time when it comes to weapons and is incredible weak when it comes to CC or single target DPS(laughable bad compared to Ember if you look at something like L150+ solo, given how eximus effects work and Saryn was even more limited in weapon modding then Ember). What DE however did was also adding the auto spore spreading what is stupid on ranged weapons, given that this boils down to full auto rifles or Ignis what is just as absurd as how the toxic transfer mechanic did vastly reduce the weapon selection by only moving 1 toxic proc(what made weapons like Ignis or full auto rifles useless).

As for Ember, the frame was super common at low levels before the changes, you could hardly run a public mission without one. I do agree that the WoF change missed the mark to prevent low level AOE farming. Ember does a lot more damage then you might assume when you state that the WoF change limited her has damage frame, given that the WoF damage is just a minor thing on the frame and the real damage comes interactions between accelerant and your weapons(what should be modded around how accelerant works). This damage gone actually up by a lot by the weapon changes(even if it is questionable why we did need the extra damage to begin with, given even L100 sortis where fairly trivial with weapons from 2014 for a good player).

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

She can actually dish great damage if you have heat on your weapons since 2 of the 3 abilities she has buffs heat damage quite well.

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

She can actually dish great damage if you have heat on your weapons since 2 of the 3 abilities she has buffs heat damage quite well.

True

She is a little bit squishy though. That's my main gripe with Ember currently. The new build sort of puts her as an ideal short-range fighter but she doesn't really have much (aside from firequake) that assists her longevity

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

43 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

True

She is a little bit squishy though. That's my main gripe with Ember currently. The new build sort of puts her as an ideal short-range fighter but she doesn't really have much (aside from firequake) that assists her longevity

Yeah she can deff see an improvement.  I just think it's a lil silly that people find her to be garbo now.

[Synpai]

3 hours ago, Synpai said:

*Dusts off Ember Rework from 2015*

NOTE: UNLESS DE MADE THE NUMBERS, THEY ARE JUST PLACEHOLDER; IT IS MY BELIEF THAT TESTING IS THE ONLY SURE WAY TO KNOW WHAT VALUES WORK, AS SUCH I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO A "NUMBERS GAME" DEBATE.

0. Passive: Ignition - Ember no longer takes damage from heat procs, instead she gains 35% Ability Strength and regenerates 10 points of energy and health for every second she’s ablaze. Embers abilities have a 25% chance to set her ablaze (This is all the passive really needs: A way for players to actually trigger it without killing themselves).

1. Ability 1: Pyronic Scourge - Ember unleashes a wave of fire in a cone dealing X% (cap scales; flames die after dealing capped damage) current health over 5 seconds. Enemies within the range of the affected target after .5~1s have a chance to be ignited. Can be charged (affected by cast speed) to travel a further distance.

• Augment: Erosion
  • Affected enemies instead have their armor removed over the burning; Significantly reduced damage dealt

2. Ability 2: Overheat - Briefly stun (open to finishers) nearby enemies with strong accelerant. If the enemy is on fire, they are instead knocked down and dealt the remaining heat damage immediately. 
Increases all fire damage dealt (based on the heat damage consumed), energy cost, and cast speed of next ability cast. 

The next ability ember casts in X seconds will have additional affects for half the duration:

1.      A second wave returns to Ember after the first that consumes the fire.
2.      Does not affect itself
3.      At the end of the duration ember will release a wave similar to fire eximus that deals damage multiplied by unique (doesn't count the same enemy twice) enemies pulled
4.      Ember and her allies cause enemies to explode on death dealing damage in an area as blast (double range with melee)

3. Ability 3: Inferno - After a short channel Ember surrounds herself in a continuous flame vortex pulling enemies close to her on cast. The vortex deals X-Y damage per second to enemies depending on how close they are to Ember. (Think flat + horizontal vortex )

-Duration is locked at increments of 3 (up to 9 or 12; minimum 3s)

• Augment: Eternal Hell
  • Pulls enemies every 3 seconds.

4. Ability 4: World on Fire - Ember envelops herself and nearby allies in flames. All those affected gain:

+X% movement speed

+Y% fire damage ( or chance to add fire damage)

+Z% armor

They also gain effects based on Ember's active abilities (25% of the effect):

In other words:

1.       During the duration of Pyronic Scourge, Ember’s allies have a chance to ignite enemies that come into contact with them
2.       If Ember gets 50% cast speed and 25% bonus to fire damage, allies get 12.5% cast speed and 6.25% fire damage increase
3.       Ember's allies have smaller vortexes that deal less damage.
4.       They receive the full effect

These flames don't have a duration, instead they have health (like iron skin); once the health is gone for a person, WoF effects are lost for them (not for everyone).

• Augment: Slow Burn
  • Fire damage dealt while WoF is active slows enemies.

Just go ahead and throw this here.

[Maka.Bones]

On 2018-05-21 at 12:32 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

She can actually dish great damage if you have heat on your weapons since 2 of the 3 abilities she has buffs heat damage quite well.

 

On 2018-05-21 at 4:06 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Yeah she can deff see an improvement.  I just think it's a lil silly that people find her to be garbo now.

That's not really a unique thing though.... You could do that just by getting a riven, or by playing rhino, mirage, chroma, nova, or saryn.... and they can dish out more damage while they're at it. . On top of that Ember needs to dance around spamming 2 abilities, and aiming through specific spots, to keep the damage buffs & enemy debuffs while any other warframe only needs to press 1 button.... for >= to the amount that ember gets. 

 

Ember really is bad atm man... sure you can kill enemies with her weapon damage, but you can also kill the same enemies without needing to specifically build for ember, and also run a circus show. You can do it by simply using that weapon's optimal build.  (the only exception to this, is Javlok)

 

Ember can no longer contribute something unique to warframe, in terms of fun/play/skill/QoL. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[DYSEQTA]

Just now, Synpai said:

Just go ahead and throw this here.

If DE really are stuck then feeding ideas to them to help get the thought process going again is probably the best course of action right now.

Although I don't like the details of the build idea you provided I do like one key element of it very much and that is the idea of Ember setting things alight, including herself, and using that as a kind of synergistic fuel to augment her ability set.

Some aspects of fire, beyond "Fire is hot!", that could be drawn on for inspiration:

• Fire behaves quite differently in enclosed spaces to how it does in open air so there's a point to pivot some variety in how skills work (like Equinox having dual modes Ember could have skills behave one way indoors and another way outdoors this can provide for more "cerebral" play as Ember users have to think about their environment and how to use it effectively)
• Fire consumes oxygen, and along with smoke, causes suffocation conditions in enclosed spaces
• Oxygen depletion followed by a sudden reintroduction of oxygen in plenty can cause violent explosions (possible synergy with previous point?) (see Backdraft)
• Smoke itself intermingled with flammable gases released from heated materials that has subsequently cooled can instantaneously ignite upon reintroduction of a high heat source creating a smoke explosion (see Delayed Flashover/Smoke Explosion) - I can see use of smoke, not just fire in Ember's skill set as a kind of cloaking, think enemy hit chance reduction or something due to difficulty seeing target, and then using this idea of smoke explosion to turn a defense into an offense

Anyway that's just my attempt to add some fuel to the Ember-rework fire.

[Arcira]

I think there are a lot of good suggestions but whatever here is another inspiration:

Passive: Each source of heat within 20m provides .2% energy regeneration. Sources of heat are ignited enemies, Flame Blast Fire Rings, Lingering Fire, burning ground (environmental hazards), ignites on Ember.

Lingering Fire (the one that´s left when a Fireball hits an object/enemy) can be Inflamed. For each additional Fireball projectile the radius and damage dealt is increased up to a maximum of x stacks. qol: casting more fireballs doesnt start a new animation instead the existing one will be extended. Maybe a bit difficult to explain but essentially this shortens the time between casts because Ember doesn´t do the whole animation for each cast.

Ignites (heat status effects) on enemies affected by Accelerent can stack and each new proc will refresh the duration.

Fire Blast is limited to 5 Fire Rings at a time but doesn´t have duration. The expanding wave of fire is now part of the augment and triggers once Embers life is below a certain threshold (10 sec cooldown)

WoF changes should be reverted and replaced by the following: damage = base damage / (distance to target - base range). base damage within 16m.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Arcira

[HRD654]

17 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Well I suggest adding the toxic lash damage bonus to all weapons quite a bit as a Ember main, given that Saryn has a lot harder time when it comes to weapons and is incredible weak when it comes to CC or single target DPS(laughable bad compared to Ember if you look at something like L150+ solo, given how eximus effects work and Saryn was even more limited in weapon modding then Ember). What DE however did was also adding the auto spore spreading what is stupid on ranged weapons, given that this boils down to full auto rifles or Ignis what is just as absurd as how the toxic transfer mechanic did vastly reduce the weapon selection by only moving 1 toxic proc(what made weapons like Ignis or full auto rifles useless).

As for Ember, the frame was super common at low levels before the changes, you could hardly run a public mission without one. I do agree that the WoF change missed the mark to prevent low level AOE farming. Ember does a lot more damage then you might assume when you state that the WoF change limited her has damage frame, given that the WoF damage is just a minor thing on the frame and the real damage comes interactions between accelerant and your weapons(what should be modded around how accelerant works). This damage gone actually up by a lot by the weapon changes(even if it is questionable why we did need the extra damage to begin with, given even L100 sortis where fairly trivial with weapons from 2014 for a good player).

I did not miss it, the fact of the matter is that I was dead tired and failed to address it entirely. Ember does have damage potential, but only at the cost of a lot of efficiency when we are talking about anything level 50+. I consider myself a fairly adequate Ember player and I use Accelerant in combination with her other abilities quite often, but the fact of the matter is that this recent change took her from using a lot of energy before (something which I was fine with dealing with) to using almost all of her energy in a five minute span if you don't have Primed Flow equipped; what other frame requires Primed Flow in order to just be functional? I confess I may be exaggerating a bit but not by much. You could argue that Ember's first ability and second ability are where the damage is, but the problem is that, for a warframe that is supposed to focus on movement and damage, Fireball is almost impossible to use effectively past a certain point. It doesn't charge fast enough for the maximum damage to be worth it, and the quick cast version of it is kind of... pathetic for lack of a better term. As I said in my post, I don't actually use Firequake; to add to that World on Fire was more to keep enemies stunned while I set them up to for the real damage with Flash Accelerant (fixed). Now I cannot actually do that because World on Fire takes way too much energy to use Accelerant with any kind of regularity and turning off World on Fire is pretty much begging to be put in bleed out. The whole setup is just a big mess right now because for all of the talk about how they want Ember to do damage there are way too many steps to get that damage.

On top of all of this, Fireblast is still useless. Allies can shoot through the ring of Fireblast to buff their weapons, but Ember cannot? Like what the actually S#&$ where they thinking with that change?

My conclusion on the whole thing is that Ember is not useless, but you have to work much harder for her to be decent at a certain point. I would be fine with this if I could not open the game right now and point to around fifteen other frames that can kill any enemy just by staring at them. Where is this damage you are talking about DE, because short of using my entire energy pool to kill a couple enemies I do not see it. If DE wants to make Ember a DPS and movement focused frame I more than welcome it, but this is not the way to do it.

Edited May 22, 2018 by HRD654

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

A slower rev up to 100% on these "lazy" frames would be decent. These 6 second intervals are the polar opposite from Ash's reworks in energy efficient abilities and tool kit.

[Synpai]

9 hours ago, DYSEQTA said:

If DE really are stuck then feeding ideas to them to help get the thought process going again is probably the best course of action right now.

Although I don't like the details of the build idea you provided I do like one key element of it very much and that is the idea of Ember setting things alight, including herself, and using that as a kind of synergistic fuel to augment her ability set.

Some aspects of fire, beyond "Fire is hot!", that could be drawn on for inspiration:

• Fire behaves quite differently in enclosed spaces to how it does in open air so there's a point to pivot some variety in how skills work (like Equinox having dual modes Ember could have skills behave one way indoors and another way outdoors this can provide for more "cerebral" play as Ember users have to think about their environment and how to use it effectively)
• Fire consumes oxygen, and along with smoke, causes suffocation conditions in enclosed spaces
• Oxygen depletion followed by a sudden reintroduction of oxygen in plenty can cause violent explosions (possible synergy with previous point?) (see Backdraft)
• Smoke itself intermingled with flammable gases released from heated materials that has subsequently cooled can instantaneously ignite upon reintroduction of a high heat source creating a smoke explosion (see Delayed Flashover/Smoke Explosion) - I can see use of smoke, not just fire in Ember's skill set as a kind of cloaking, think enemy hit chance reduction or something due to difficulty seeing target, and then using this idea of smoke explosion to turn a defense into an offense

Anyway that's just my attempt to add some fuel to the Ember-rework fire.

There was accuracy reduction in the original, but as Titania has shown, Evasion does jack squat in this game when a good bit of the enemies have weapons that just kinda destroy you (Napalm, Bombards, etc). Believe me you don't want to get tooooo literal and sooner or later we'll get a smoke warframe cause that could take up a theme of its own, hence just turning the heat procs into essentially blast procs via accelerant. It's essentially creating that explosion, just not explicit as to how.

 

As an avid Mirage player, it sounds logical that fire acts different depending on space, but conditional buffs/debuffs that you have no control over get old really fast the reason Equinox works is because players can choose which form they'll use (and most typically use one per mission lol). 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Are we gonna ignore that her WoF is still automated Cc and that her health and energy pool are both gigantic? Are we gonna ignore that she's the best energy tank in the game and the only one among them that's got a damage buff at all? Are we gonna ignore all of her kit for the sake of the WoF bias?.. yeah, that's cool too.

Ember. Everyone played her for the Cc in high levels. I'm sure that's the case.

Edited May 22, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Arcira]

14 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Are we gonna ignore that her WoF is still automated Cc and that her health and energy pool are both gigantic? Are we gonna ignore that she's the best energy tank in the game and the only one among them that's got a damage buff at all? Are we gonna ignore all of her kit for the sake of the WoF bias?.. yeah, that's cool too.

Ember. Everyone played her for the Cc in high levels. I'm sure that's the case.

1.) Her "automated" cc is limited to 5 enemies at any given time (not moddable) which in my opinion a is good design choise for a squishy Warframe that relies on mobility. It´s an alternative to facetanking or locking crowds of enemies down with recastable abilities.

2.) For her "gigantic" hp and energy pool... did I miss something?Last time I checked (1min ago) she had 100(300) hp, 150(225) energy and 125armor. Pretty much the definition of standard. In fact her energy is quite low compared to other caster type frames but on the other hand she has a bit more armor in exchange.

3.) With "the best energy tank in the game" I´m asuming you are talking about Quick Thinking. So let´s do some math:

Ember: Damage Reduction = 125 / (125+300) = 0.294      EHP from max QT = (225* 2.4) / (1 - 0.294) = 764.87 (from QT)+ 424.92 (frome base hp) = 1189.79 ehp

Volt: Damage Reduction = 100 / (100+300) = 0.25             EHP from max QT = (300* 2.4) / (1 - 0.25) = 960 (From QT) + 400 (from base hp) = 1360 ehp

The formulas and values can be found on warframe wiki if someone want to calculate for themself, but I think it´s clear that she´s not the best energy tank.

4.) There are countless calculations for her "damage buff" where you can see that this buff isn´t as impactfull as you might think. If you consider slot efficiency and the nerfs to energy eco and range it´s clearly an overall nerf. Remember the exchange for double damge is a 7.5m base range! If you are trying to offer power strength for range you are in lower overall damage values very fast.

5.) I´d like to see some improvements to her other abilities, but do we have to scrap the working synergy between WoF and Accelerant? I don´t think making Fireball and Flame Blast viable would make her op or something.

6.) I think you are confusing something here.Most comments I have read did not state that they only play Ember because her cc in high lvl is so good rather than pointing out that her survivability in high lvl is heavily effected by the nerfs but the actual problem remains the same. Personally I simply like to play Firecaster and her visual design is cool as well.

Reminder: it would be nice if everyone could restrain from claiming something as fact without proves. A lot of people take statements as they are without questioning them.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Arcira

[Buttaface]

Melee TTK on 8 150 corrupt gunners in the simulacrum starting with 0 combo, Ember is 3rd behind new Saryn (OP but please don't nerf too hard lol) and behind Rhino in my measurements. Slightly ahead of/tied with Resonance Banshee. Ahead of every other frame I use regularly. In missions, Ember is one of the strongest buffers in the game now because her team dmg buff also functions as significant team dmg reduction with the short spammed stuns. I regularly did t3-4 survivals for an hour or longer solo and teamed with Ember back in the days before the augments, and she's much better now. With the beam weapon buff and rivens, Ember is an absolute monster with the Atomos/Ignis, and that is at middling/low power str and lots of QOL mods in the build.

Sure, tweak WOF I guess, but Ember is generally fine and strong in the 1, 2 and 3. Claiming she is -bad- now because her 4 isn't the best ultimate in the game is hyperbolic. She is far from "bad" and better than "OK." AOE heat procs are strong for CC and fueling more ever-popular CO damage also.

Finally, seeing the "gives out at high levels" error repeated over and over is getting old. That is -not- the case. Another one, the "heat damage is bad" is wrong also. Even pugs are learning to bring corrosive projection to armor missions, and with just two in the team, let alone 3-4 and armor stripping powers, viral + accelerant buffed heat procs are very good, maybe better than slash.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Buttaface

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

~snip~

exactly. ive been experimenting with other weapons and found that amprex is also a good choice. phage im on the fence, but my go 2 is arca plasmor primary.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Arcira:

1.) Her "automated" cc is limited to 5 enemies at any given time (not moddable) which in my opinion a is good design choise for a squishy Warframe that relies on mobility. It´s an alternative to facetanking or locking crowds of enemies down with recastable abilities.

Why yes, especially when it is strong enough to weed out small fries. 5 enemys at a time is unrelyable Cc in the first place and hardly something that kept her alive previously, in small range, it attacks simply everything in range. Period. To set eather knockdown or panic Cc with a chance, what's not only Cc but hard Cc that indeed works great with mobility, is not essencial something a glass cannon would have.

 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Arcira:

2.) For her "gigantic" hp and energy pool... did I miss something?Last time I checked (1min ago) she had 100(300) hp, 150(225) energy and 125armor. Pretty much the definition of standard. In fact her energy is quite low compared to other caster type frames but on the other hand she has a bit more armor in exchange.

3.) With "the best energy tank in the game" I´m asuming you are talking about Quick Thinking. So let´s do some math:

Forget the math since similar numbers emerge from armor centered frames too... or everything that doesn't feature a damage reduction at all imo. What's affecting but a hand full of frames right now including gara, trin and nekros. Maybe rhino with his recent augument too but that's really just about it. Let us rather compare it to other frames that qualify for that playstyle at all starting from 

*Loki p - 75 (225) health, 175 (262) energy, 65 armor 

Who's entire survivability is his invisibility.

*Oberon p - 125 (375) health, 175 (262) energy, 225 armor

Who is centered around compensating the damage with hot's

Volt p - 100 (300) health, 200 (300) energy, 100 armor

Who's running slightly better stats with nothing but active Cc

Saryn p - now 125 (375) health, 200 (300) energy, 300 armor

Who doesn't have anything but her decoy standing between her and the enemys

...Between them, who do not have as passive Cc but do just fine and her, who has passive Cc paired with active Cc including a spammy high range, small radius aoe, high range light Cc, medium range push back/panic Cc and a medium range passive Cc on more then sufficient stats for a full fledged energy tank build to sustain her passive and feed her active Cc, how does she not compete? How is she a glass cannon when she's able to take a hit to unleash a spammy kit? Nothing extraordinary here, that's for sure but it ain't lacking eather. Point is that she ain't in any way as weak as people make her to be... 

I'm in for a lil QoL any day. God knows she could use it but that'd all it really is. Qol. What she needs ain't that frickin meta back tho, that's for certain. It did absolutely nothing for her except for supporting messed up builds.

 

Why not raising her stats instead? Why not boosting fire blast? Raising her status chance, making the Accelerant boost a buff rather then a dbuff? Changing her passive to make fire proccs by her more viable? Anything you hear these days is people painting her worse that she is to a single goddarn end and that is an issue right there. Sure OP made clear that the range isn't what he wants but did it really not solve her biggest issue? 

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[traybong111]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Why yes, especially when it is strong enough to weed out small fries. 5 enemys at a time is unrelyable Cc in the first place and hardly something that kept her alive previously, in small range, it attacks simply everything in range. Period. To set eather knockdown or panic Cc with a chance, what's not only Cc but hard Cc that indeed works great with mobility, is not essencial something a glass cannon would have.

 

Forget the math since similar numbers emerge from armor centered frames too... or everything that doesn't feature a damage reduction at all imo. What's affecting but a hand full of frames right now including gara, trin and nekros. Maybe rhino with his recent augument too but that's really just about it. Let us rather compare it to other frames that qualify for that playstyle at all starting from 

*Loki p - 75 (225) health, 175 (262) energy, 65 armor 

Who's entire survivability is his invisibility.

*Oberon p - 125 (375) health, 175 (262) energy, 225 armor

Who is centered around compensating the damage with hot's

Volt p - 100 (300) health, 200 (300) energy, 100 armor

Who's running slightly better stats with nothing but active Cc

Saryn p - now 125 (375) health, 200 (300) energy, 300 armor

Who doesn't have anything but her decoy standing between her and the enemys

...Between them, who do not have as passive Cc but do just fine and her, who has passive Cc paired with active Cc including a spammy high range, small radius aoe, high range light Cc, medium range push back/panic Cc and a medium range passive Cc on more then sufficient stats for a full fledged energy tank build to sustain her passive and feed her active Cc, how does she not compete? How is she a glass cannon when she's able to take a hit to unleash a spammy kit? Nothing extraordinary here, that's for sure but it ain't lacking eather. Point is that she ain't in any way as weak as people make her to be... what makes the whole statement that she's unviable due to her WoF range a exagerated lie to run a agenda. One that's meant to push her back into her afk-farming meta.

I'm in for a lil QoL any day. God knows she could use it. What she needs ain't that frickin meta back tho, that's for certain. It did absolutely nothing for her except for supporting messed up builds.

 

Why not raising her stats instead? Why not boosting fire blast? Raising her status chance, making the Accelerant boost a buff rather then a dbuff? Changing her passive to make fire proccs by her more viable? Anything you hear these days is people painting her worse that she is to a single goddarn end and that is an issue right there.

 

WoF target limit is 5 at cast and 3 while channeling. 

(Also let's leave invisibility frames out when it comes to survivability comparison. Invisibility might as well be invincibility in this game considering enemies don't even fire when they can't see you.) 

I wouldn't be against raising her base energy to 160~175 range, but only under the condition that DE finds the balls to scrap WoF.

I've heard some good ideas about changing her passive, but I think set-yourself-on-fire-for-extra-power isn't such a bad concept. Change it so her 1 can set herself on fire for certain% of her hp, but lose the energy regen (because, with the exception of Octavia, DE isn't about to hand out free energy on ability cast) and give her a Firewalker (the mod) effect on top of bonus power strength. Also, considering her aggressive CQC nature, something like gaining bonus power strength (up to a cap) when her hp falls under certain% wouldn't be so far-fetched from that concept. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by traybong111

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Am 23.5.2018 um 08:18 schrieb traybong111:

 

I've heard some good ideas about changing her passive, but I think set-yourself-on-fire-for-extra-power isn't such a bad concept. Change it so her 1 can set herself on fire for certain% of her hp, but lose the energy regen (because, with the exception of Octavia, DE isn't about to hand out free energy on ability) and give her a Firewalker (the mod) effect on top of bonus power strength. Also, considering her aggressive CQC nature, something like gaining bonus power strength (up to a cap) when her hp falls under certain% wouldn't be so far-fetched from that concept. 

Not quite the fan of that one honestly and people are correct, that it can only be refreshed but not stacked is a weakness of fire. Not a fatal one since her kit boosts damage rathet then spamming enemys but it's still a flaw. Plus it is indeed difficult for her to even catch fire in the first place.

Letting it stack status duration rather then proccs for her and/or letting her self ignite for the bonus may not be too bad. (The energy aspect can't quite be the issue since you need a seperate mod for it in the first place tho it wouldn't be unique to it. Thinking about toxic clouds like those from ghouls and plague star that don't give energy eather.)

Edit: just on a sidenote...you wouldn't believe how many people call loki trash. You sure can't be targeted but one wrong step, one stray bullet and he's done for. Same concept really.

Edited May 24, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Naneel]

Then I will throw this in, some nice ideas, especially the 4th Ability is what i like :

 

 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

On 2018-05-21 at 3:32 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

She can actually dish great damage if you have heat on your weapons since 2 of the 3 abilities she has buffs heat damage quite well.

^This.

The secret to her damage is that she isn't much of a caster frame at all. She's a weapon frame that does great damage if you combo accelerant with fire damage on your weapons.

But back to the point, I agree that she is in an awkward place at the moment. I still prefer her now than I ever did when WoF was her main focus, but WoF is basically useless now, her 1 takes far too long to charge to be useful most times. The bonus fire damage while standing in her 3 is awesome, but allies never take advantage of it unless you drop it on them against their will and the wave is overrated.

Scrapping her kit and starting over doesn't sound like a bad idea if it means she'll have a more cohesive focus. 

[Crewman82]

i play ember for the first time after the rework and i have to say is far from great.the eficiency drain from world on fire is horrible and limits the way you can mod ember,so you taking off efficiency and range from world on fire and it only gives you more damage,you take 2 and give 1,not fair is it?i suggest give ember not only more damage but also 50%damage reduction or double the hp or something,that way will make me not wanting to recast world on fire.whats the point of having more damage and no range ?if u go against lvl 70+ enemys at close range you die so DE give ember damage reduction wen world on fire gets to 100%

[sixmille]

Ember isn't weak or bad but ember is definitely hard to play. Ember requires you to read the wiki, which is probably a superhuman effort for a lot of people, because the in game descriptions of abilites are vague and unclear, so DE should probably work on that.

Ember has a great damage potential, especially if you use fire weapons as 2 and 3 buff and add fire damage. Survivability can be solved in many ways: a friendly healer, weapons with the ability to heal you (hirudo, life strike, healing return, or whatever), arcanes and mods. I've played quite a bit of long-ish 1h kuva survivals with ember and I've consistently be top damage so Ember's potential is nothing to scoff at.

[RealPandemonium]

If a frame isn't for you, don't use it.  Plenty of alternatives.