A Rework Is In Ordis

[Hecking_Birb]

*disclaimer: a majority of this applies to the later-game content, but some of it does end up affecting early-game content somewhat

*second disclaimer: this post has now been massively edited three times.

I came back to warframe after a hiatus filled with Overwatch competitive, which I have to say has terrible matchmaking.

I wanted to have some quick fun. Picked my "Having Fun" loadout, complete with well-forma'd Harrow, an Arca Plasmor, riven'd akstiletto prime, and an Orthos Prime for good headshot chance. Everything built for status and crit at the same time, especially for Harrow's Lasting Covenant augment.

Loaded into Gabbi on Ceres, because I was lacking Orokin Cells. Spoiler, got none after 35 minutes. I should have taken Smeeta.

I have to say, I've gotten a bit of a new perspective. What I did there actually felt pretty fun. Popping skulls, hearing the satisfying headshot audio response, constantly melting crowds... it felt good.

Perhaps, just perhaps, I was wrong about this game needing a massive rework. The movement felt plenty fine, if a bit too bullet-jumpy (i'm standing by my point that bullet jump is overpowered). The crowds dying felt good. Everything felt good.

What we have now does, in fact, work. Certain things do need tweaks though.

Talking about post-War Within and Second Dream content here, skip to the next bold text to avoid any potential spoilers.

Operator is useless as-is, because the only benefit to even investing is eidolon hunting and the easy free energy from Zenurik. Personally, I feel that that specific system needs a huge change, because a warrior operator just doesn't hold up. The Second Dream's version is good, because it's a free "everything will die NOW" ability that's on a large cooldown, which I like. The War Within takes that away, and gives you something you won't use nearly as much. In my opinion, The War Within should instead swap the ability out from "Void Demon Summon" to "Filled With the Rage of a Thousand Suns". A berserk mode, complete with bonus movement speed, high damage resistance, doubled damage and attack speed, as well as free ability casts. This way, completing The War Within will actually grant players something that can be an upgrade, if invested. All of the nodes would have to be changed completely save for a select few, such as Zenurik's starting passive. However, with this change, people can invest into helpful boosts, like activation granting nearby allies a much smaller and shorter version of it, or making all weapon attacks explosive during it, or increasing status/critical chance while active. if I remember correctly, The Second Dream used to make the cooldown longer for each node active, as well as one certain node decreasing cooldown, and I feel that system should be retained. The more effective activation is, the less you should be able to use it. The base cooldown for Transcendence is way too long though. What was it, three minutes? Four? That's long. I'm thinking maybe something like a two minute cooldown, with a 15-20 second duration. Fashionframe would be bolstered while active, it would aid players in further endgame power no matter the frame they use, and focus farming would become a real boon, rather than something you need only do for like a week or two before running out of valuable things.

With it, eidolon hunts, amps, operator arcanes, The War Within's storyline, and probably some other things I'm not thinking of would have to be changed. Eidolon hunts would become based around the warframes instead, which is considerably more fun and arguably more fair, while allowing for greater leniency in the warframes chosen. Amps would probably have to have their resources refunded, or grant bonuses to this new berserk mode rather than act as a weapon. Arcanes would simply need stat changes, nothing else special. The War Within would be the biggest change, as the final area would no longer rely on you using your operator, but the journey can stay relatively similar, instead working towards understanding and greater benefitting the warframes we control, from the sidelines. Give your thoughts.

Spoilers over.

Now for some more universal things: Range needs to be reduced on abilities that deal damage. That specifically is very important, because it would prevent people from abusing abilities and make them actually use their guns. The damage dealt is a separate issue, as we should be allowed to scale in the enemies we can slaughter, but never to the point where we clear rooms without effort, hence range reduction. Abilities like Banshee's Sonar and Nidus' Parasitic Link should retain the range they have, because they don't directly kill anything. Abilities like Nidus' Virulence are also not terrible. That ability in particular is stopped by geometry and only goes in a straight line forward, so it's not incredibly unfair.

Enemies need orthogonal difficulty. The same old "more damage more bullet sponginess" method is boring, bland, and lacks any form of brainpower. A Butcher and a Bombard and a Ballista should not all be dealt with the exact same way, because then every enemy loses any feeling of being special or unique. The counter-argument can be "But the Grineer are clones, and the Corpus are specially-bred, and the Infested are all just masses of the same flesh", but I don't care about those things. Gameplay should take high precedent, because gameplay is what players actually do. How this is done has been discussed in this thread, and I like the ideas people present. Squads using teamwork, armor plating, the mention of eximus units having weak spots, they're good ideas.

(also if enemies stop just getting harder by being tankier and more heavily shielded/armored, maybe then slash and corrosive will stop being essential, and instead just helpful.)

We need an option for flashier stuff to happen when enemies get gored. An enemy just sorta falling apart doesn't yield much satisfaction, but since that helps people not lose brain cells watching gameplay, it should be optional.

Loot needs to be changed. People do have a point, you can only get so much of the same resource before even the most rewarding enemies become useless. Cosmetic pieces sounds nice, especially someone's recommendation of pulling out a little pocket-Ordis when ESC is pressed. Speaking of, anyone ever notice that only the client can see themself using the ESC menu? That seems weird. Pls fix, DE.

Warframes need more ability synergy. Harrow and Nidus, for example, are two warframes where only efficiency can really be thrown out, and that's just because they generate energy for themselves by using their abilities. If every warframe was designed like that, then maybe we'd stop seeing Trinities exclusively building for range and strength, and Banshees building for... exclusively range and strength, and Rhinos building exclusively for armor and strength (or range and duration), because doing so would prove to be less effective than building fairly evenly, with certain stats only being thrown out if a warframe doesn't actually need it (Ash and Mirage not needing range, Nidus and Harrow not needing efficiency, Titania and Volt not needing strength (the latter for mapwide lockdown builds), Frost and Oberon not needing duration).

Status effects need buffs. Magnetic sucks and so does Fire. 'nuff said.

Weapons need a new buff wave. Yes, I know, there already was one that re-ranked weapons, fixed beam status, and tweaked stats, but look at the state of our arsenals. Braton Vandal is bad for how hard it is to get, and has an insultingly low MR requirement, despite coming from playing ESO multiple times. Gorgon and Gorgon Wraith are both trash, especially since Prisma Gorgon exists. The Atomos is a different case, as instead it's got a strangely low MR requirement for how good it is. MR5 for a room clearer? Strange. Not every weapon has to be endgame viable, of course; The Tigris Prime has a high MR requirement for a good reason, while something like the Braton or Paris has no MR requirement, and has low stats to match. One's good for the most endgame of endgame builds, the other is for new players that want a slight upgrade from their current starter weapons. Don't forget difficulty to obtain, either. If something requires 20 nitain or 30 gallium, it should damn well act like it.

What I present here are ways to make the game, in a weird way, more fair. If my ideas are utilized and properly applied, then warframes will retain the satisfying feeling of being a god, while also actually having any level of challenge to face. Really, the way the game is designed right now leaves the good players with nothing to do but twiddle their thumbs. Some people argue that we should create difficulty by limiting ourselves, but my counterargument is that I worked for what I have, I damn well intend to make use of it. I spent hours on Uranus for Condition Overload for a reason. I spent hours on Lua spy for Blood Rush for a reason. I farmed for Weeping Wounds for a reason. I worked for what I have, and to say "well just don't use it and you'll have fun" is to spit in the community's face, mine for sure.

I go to ESO, facing the highest-level enemies currently available to us without going multiple hours in Sedna survival, and I still find no difficulty. The enemies keep dying, and I keep winning. My win/loss ratio is 9/1, if I recall correctly, and that is a massive change from the various other games I've played. This doesn't seem fair, us just mopping the floors with the skulls of the countless nox units that we've all slaughtered within seconds. I have worked hard for what I have, and what is my reward? The choice between boredom, and not even using what I worked so hard to get. What's right about that?

I like this game, I do, but there are things that naggle at my brain whenever I think of them or have to deal with them. For christ's sake, why does Banshee's 4 have to just clear low level content then suck for everything else? Why do Atlas' Rumblers always do terrible damage? Why do I keep getting stuck under Hydron's stairs?

Good game, but pls fix the deeply-rooted stuff.

Sincerely,

A dedicated fan, loyal supporter, and genuine adorer of this game.

 

TL;DR: just read the beginning of every paragraph, nerd

 

TL;DR for the replies:

1. CanoLathra - DE is indecisive if they want more Borderlands level of difficulty, or Dynasty Warriors.
2. o.0 - Suggestion for a massive change of status system. See extended post here. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/882404-a-series-of-incidental-tweaks/

3. kgabor - People in WF dislike having to put in effort; the stealth system is outdated; artificial difficulty such as plain damage nerfs won't help, rather reworks of fundamental systems are needed; DE is  too focused on new content rather than fixing old content.
4. Darkshar - Certain missions could have a small number of enemies that are incredibly effective, as a bit of neat stuff
5. Ketec - complaints about how spending time in a mission is pointless, valid complaint; suggestion for movement abilities to provide a brief buff upon use.
6. Knight Raime - dislikes needing skill, but also dislikes nukes and cheese; thinks *invisibility* needs a nerf, perhaps in the form of detection enemies
7. Talonflight - Talon's posts consist mostly of agreeing with me and similar arguments.
8. motionROTATION - Desires removal of Energizing Dash, and higher-level content banning energy pizzas. Good idea with proper energy consideration.
9. Flandyrll - Dislikes corrupted mods, because they amplify the underlying issue of being able to throw away three stats and still work wonders.
10. CanoLathra - Desires reworking of general faction specialties, read reply for details.
11. DeadFall526 - A new player saying that the game is already difficult, but hasn't experienced endgame. They're right about their point for the stage of the game they're in.
12. Talonflight - More agreeing, puts things in his own words. Good read.
13. MirageKnight - Suggesting how to increase challenge in a few well thought out ways.
14. Flandyrll - Continued claims of corrupted mods disrupting balance, with the added suggestion of limiting ability mods just like bullet jump mods.
15. kgabor - Making the point that the enemies are unbalanced and boring.
16. Evilpricetag - Point on how energy issues wouldn't actually be there if ED and team nrg rest. were removed, and how smeeta kavats are better than sentinels for resources; how passives aren't unique enough (i think); how gas is also a good element.
17. Knight Raime - enemies are boring to deal with.
18. Knight Raime - Suggestion on how stealth-cancelling enemies could work.
19. Kotsender - Links to his own thread that talks about a related yet different topic, grammar isn't the best but good points are presented. Too long to TLDR.
20. WhiteCr0w - Unsure of how this entire idea would be viable to bring into reality, because small changes could make big changes. Counterpoint: This is no small change.
21. Nimfacsaj - Doesn't like the idea of reducing difficulty because "the community won't like it".
22. Azamagon - Very long post, but a majority of the size is dedicated to just describing Brutal Doom enemies. A post about how enemies should be more distinct, both in HOW they are difficult, and in how they look.
23. Goodwill - Desires the return of the stamina bar, and/or a reduction of bullet jumping effectiveness.
24. A variety of suggestions on balance and game streamlining. too varied to TLDR.
25. PookieNumnums - Suggestions for parkour, and good ones at that.
26. "Are you still playing the game, or just running through?" - Talonflight, saying the perfect line to solidify the need for slowing the movement down.
27. Talonflight - Recommending this entire section of the post.

All other replies are either contributing very little to the conversation, or are replies made by me to other people's ideas. Tell me if I missed any.

note: a good few replies have been added now. If someone feels a certain reply deserves to be added to the list, say so.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Hecking_Birb
Change of opinion.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

4 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

the entire community will *@##$

Man, this line....

 

[Hecking_Birb]

Just now, -.SP.-G43riel said:

Man, this line....

I can't tell if this is... did it make you laugh, or does it seem silly to you? This reaction is really general

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

The problem is that DE doesn't quite know if they want their game to be Borderlands (in which you are powerful, but still quite vulnerable in many cases) or Dynasty Warriors (where you literally mow down hundreds of mooks and are only 'challenged' by bosses and objectives).

Once they figure out what game they are making, then they can figure out balance.

You seem to be on the side of the 'Borderlands' style. Not all players are. Finding a balance between the two is nearly impossible, so DE is going to piss off a lot of players either way they eventually go, which seems to have frozen them in an eternal state of fence-sitting.

[tyrannicaltyrant]

TLDR

[Hecking_Birb]

Just now, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The problem is that DE doesn't quite know if they want their game to be Borderlands (in which you are powerful, but still quite vulnerable in many cases) or Dynasty Warriors (where you literally mow down hundreds of mooks and are only 'challenged' by bosses and objectives).

Once they figure out what game they are making, then they can figure out balance.

You seem to be on the side of the 'Borderlands' style. Not all players are. Finding a balance between the two is nearly impossible, so DE is going to piss off a lot of players either way they eventually go, which seems to have frozen them in an eternal state of fence-sitting.

You, my sir, stated that elegantly. I didn't even think about Borderlands. Man that game was fun, I wish I had more content to play.

And yeah, I know about the whole "being indecisive" thing. I'm here to say why the game would benefit from challenge.

You know what Dynasty Warriors has that Warframe doesn't? Men with giant swords knocking a bunch of weak soldiers around like plush toys, racking up massive and satisfying combos and seeing glorious visual effects. Warframe just has numbers. Numbers are great, but visual effects are better.

[Hecking_Birb]

2 minutes ago, tyrannicaltyrant said:

TLDR

I'll add one.

[o.0-]

I get what you're saying.

The strongest area we have here in Warframe is the potential depth that already exists if various systems, like Status could be tweaked and expanded on, while having enemies gain more properties in relation to Status Effects in the process.

As Warfame does have a lot of satisfying sounds, visuals and animations that are easy to miss when everything melts soon after first contact, so I agree with at least a paradigm shift that transforms how various systems are seen interacting with each other. I'll list my current top two off the top of my head.

• Status System - independent of damage, enemies gain set of resistances and weaknesses - naturally tied in to art and animations
• Integration of Keybinds for fluidity of ranged attacks, melee and warframe movement - also tied to animations and transitions between them.

I've shared many possibilities as to what can be changed, adjusted and expanded on over the years, refining ideas as I play Warframe and other games, I need to get better on following up on things and sharing them better.

[Hecking_Birb]

21 minutes ago, o.0- said:

I get what you're saying.

The strongest area we have here in Warframe is the potential depth that already exists if various systems, like Status could be tweaked and expanded on, while having enemies gain more properties in relation to Status Effects in the process.

As Warfame does have a lot of satisfying sounds, visuals and animations that are easy to miss when everything melts soon after first contact, so I agree with at least a paradigm shift that transforms how various systems are seen interacting with each other. I'll list my current top two off the top of my head.

• Status System - independent of damage, enemies gain set of resistances and weaknesses - naturally tied in to art and animations
• Integration of Keybinds for fluidity of ranged attacks, melee and warframe movement - also tied to animations and transitions between them.

I've shared many possibilities as to what can be changed, adjusted and expanded on over the years, refining ideas as I play Warframe and other games, I need to get better on following up on things and sharing them better.

Not what I'd think of, but good ideas nonetheless. I'm not a professional game designer (i'd bet you aren't either, but that just means we're on even more equal footing), so who knows. +neat for being neat

*edit: just checked out the linked post, and w0ah.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Hecking_Birb

[Sormaran]

Eh, i expected more drama from weekly "playerbase is brainless, nerf everything for challenge" thread. Made popcorn for nothing. FeelsBadMan

[kgabor]

I'm one of those Harrow fanboys and i use both Harrow and Trinity, it's really only the cast times and the nuke meta that makes Harrow less used plus people playing WF seem to be allergic to anything that requires the slightest bit of skills or takes more than five minutes to "grind". (which sounds by an injoke by itself, Warframe's "grind" is nothing compared to many games i've played)

Banshee's passive is really good, it just lacks a niche because Wf stealth mechanics are outdated, there is practically no stealth aspect in the game, yeah nor is stealth properly rewarded. (Rest-Silence or invis cheesing isn't stealth and focus grind isn't a thing anymore)

But you know that artificial "difficulty" like nerfing our damage doens't solve the issue, right? This game needs an AI rework for enemy npc-s and only then can DE start to consider balancing the game and enemies around what that offers in difficulty.

Some nuke abilities and frame combos are just blatantly broken and adding horde mode makes the game more braindead but if they would take it slowly and add an experimental game mode where only balanced, tested and approved frames could be used for increased gains.

Kuva Survival could have been that but people whine when others can gain more with skills, people also whine when they can't use their cheese tactics to trivialize the game.

The only way to make the game fun would be to split the matchmaking into casual and hardcore mode with completely different mechanics and rewards which DE would never do due to the salt it would entail.

There will never be a skill based fun game with part of its community so entitled as a vocal part of the Wf community which is why the game will always remain "in beta".

There also seems to be more demand for new content than fixing the game and its many problems which is why the game is so braindead. (yeah, i also got bored of Wf and i am back to playing PvP focused games, i don't see much hope for this game to change sadly)

[Darkshar]

One idea is they could have certain missions where only a few enemies are spawning, but they are super powerful enemies that require a lot of teamwork and thinking. This way people who enjoy a challenge can play the mission and those who just want to mow enemies down can mow enemies down in other missions.

[Ketec]

This whole "skillz" argument is pointless - it's personal taste. And it's often demanded by the PVP players  - in a PVE game.

Even if you have separate mission types - you create a divide where whole chunks of playerbase are cut off from some content - you want to make something everyone would be fine playing.

Most of these niche features are not used because they are not rewarding.
Why bother sniping whole ext in 30 minutes if you can aoe everything in 5 and get the same rewards (junk).

Or why use the complex wall run attack if i can just shoot a bullet 10x faster and with less time wasted.
These special moves need soem kind of modifiers - like temp buff after used, 5x more credits/affinity, more gore etc.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Ketec

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I'm not looking for "skill" in a horde based farming game where efficiency of time spent is highly important.  That doesn't mean i'm fine with "nukes."  I have generally been in favor of DE ramping up player interaction with their kit but still keeping around the same power before the rework.  I feel like DE should cater to those who want a challenge.  But in a seperate section that's on it's own.  Stealth is the only thing im comfortable with saying should be looked into on a broad scale.  mainly making invisibility not as strong.  (I would prefer having units in each faction that can find/detect us while cloaked and mark/decloak us for enemies to attack us.) 

[Talonflight]

I hate to say this, but OP is right. We ARE too powerful. 

I've been playing for years and I can agree. Most times a mission literally doesn't even NEED a team at all, 3 people can literally AFK while 1 person does the mission. Thats it. When you get to higher level content, sure, you need a team, but they only stack more damage for more kills, and the rest of everything else is left in the dust.

Making enemies less able to just die in one hit would be a good thing.

Slowing down the pace of the game would be a good thing.

Overhauling enemy AI would be a good thing.

A damage cap for players would be a good thing.

[(XBOX)motionROTATION]

I was actually thinking about the over abundance of energy for a few weeks now. Zenurick trivializes the game and the energy regen should be removed. Then higher content should ban restores. And then, content should be able to be balanced around frames capabilities. Ideally anyway 

[RX-3DR]

Personally, I believe the moment the game started slipping down was the addition of Warframe Corrupted mods. By increasing the range of what abilities can do, it becomes extremely difficult to find a good standard to aim for in regards to how effective they are supposed to be. Make abilities a little bit too strong, that small advantage becomes exaggerated with 200%+ Power Strength, etc. Make it too weak, and it becomes completely unusable unless your build revolves around making it somewhat functional. Even an ability that serves its purpose to a fair degree can be taken to extremes where they effectively negate an entire portion of the game. Not only did it damage the balancing for abilities but it also damaged player builds and Warframe kits in the long run by creating one-trick pony builds where everything is sacrificed to focus on a single ability. It essentially recreated the old problem where Abilities were mods and most people would only slot in 1 or 2 of them in a different manner. The problem only became worse with all the different ways to recharge Energy.

A lot of people want to see better level scaling but I don't think it's possible at this point since all these implementations are irreversible without a massive rework.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

8 hours ago, Hecking_Birb said:

You know what Dynasty Warriors has that Warframe doesn't? Men with giant swords knocking a bunch of weak soldiers around like plush toys, racking up massive and satisfying combos and seeing glorious visual effects. Warframe just has numbers. Numbers are great, but visual effects are better.

Galatine Prime + Eternal Valkyr + Tempo Royale + turning on Weapon Trail effects in the settings = everything Dynasty Warriors has except for cinematic abilities.

And Warframe wouldn't work with those because the combat is actually faster-paced than it is in Dynasty Warriors and its cousins.

The problem I see is that the Grineer and Corpus have tactics and cover mechanics like Borderlands enemies, but the infested simply rush and attack like Dynasty Warriors, and neither group has their numbers, damage, or rewards balanced for their tactics. We should be facing slightly fewer Grineer, and mostly mechanical Corpus, and a lot more Infested. The Grineer and Corpus should have their affinity values and drop rates/quantities increased along with slightly tankier health/shield values (and less damage from non-eximus grunts) to match the Borderlands 'duck and cover' gameplay aspect that their AI implies. The infested need slightly less damage and far less affinity along with greatly increased enemy density and greatly reduced affinity values and somewhat reduced drop rates/quantities and health values that scale a bit more slowly with levels (but not too slowly) and a greatly reduced number of Ancients on the field at any given time while greatly increasing their health to match the Dynasty Warriors 'horde slaughter' gameplay that their AI implies.

Like I said, it would be difficult for DE to balance both playstyles, to where neither side feels punished by using their playstyle, or that the other side is getting better stuff than they are. This is why they have left things as the mess that they are, because at least both sides aren't getting what they want, and they fight with each other and mostly leave DE out of it (conversations like this not withstanding).

[Hecking_Birb]

18 hours ago, Sormaran said:

Eh, i expected more drama from weekly "playerbase is brainless, nerf everything for challenge" thread. Made popcorn for nothing. FeelsBadMan

I, too, wish this sparked more of a discussion. Maybe I was too clickbait-y?

[Hecking_Birb]

18 hours ago, kgabor said:

I'm one of those Harrow fanboys and i use both Harrow and Trinity, it's really only the cast times and the nuke meta that makes Harrow less used plus people playing WF seem to be allergic to anything that requires the slightest bit of skills or takes more than five minutes to "grind". (which sounds by an injoke by itself, Warframe's "grind" is nothing compared to many games i've played)

Banshee's passive is really good, it just lacks a niche because Wf stealth mechanics are outdated, there is practically no stealth aspect in the game, yeah nor is stealth properly rewarded. (Rest-Silence or invis cheesing isn't stealth and focus grind isn't a thing anymore)

But you know that artificial "difficulty" like nerfing our damage doens't solve the issue, right? This game needs an AI rework for enemy npc-s and only then can DE start to consider balancing the game and enemies around what that offers in difficulty.

Some nuke abilities and frame combos are just blatantly broken and adding horde mode makes the game more braindead but if they would take it slowly and add an experimental game mode where only balanced, tested and approved frames could be used for increased gains.

Kuva Survival could have been that but people whine when others can gain more with skills, people also whine when they can't use their cheese tactics to trivialize the game.

The only way to make the game fun would be to split the matchmaking into casual and hardcore mode with completely different mechanics and rewards which DE would never do due to the salt it would entail.

There will never be a skill based fun game with part of its community so entitled as a vocal part of the Wf community which is why the game will always remain "in beta".

There also seems to be more demand for new content than fixing the game and its many problems which is why the game is so braindead. (yeah, i also got bored of Wf and i am back to playing PvP focused games, i don't see much hope for this game to change sadly)

feelsheckman
You're right, Banshee's passive would be better with a much more rewarding stealth system.

Nerfing us isn't the only thing I suggested, I'm fairly certain. It was the main point, yes, but I know that this game needs a lot more changes than just nerf nukes.

Not sure what you're talking about in paragraph 4.

nor in 5

That suggestion is just attempting to please everyone, which is really a terrible idea.

DE really just needs to ignore certain people's suggestions. Salt gets nobody anywhere.

#fixwhatwehave

[Hecking_Birb]

18 hours ago, Darkshar said:

One idea is they could have certain missions where only a few enemies are spawning, but they are super powerful enemies that require a lot of teamwork and thinking. This way people who enjoy a challenge can play the mission and those who just want to mow enemies down can mow enemies down in other missions.

It's a good idea on paper, but would NOT work with Warframe's current dynamic. Singular enemies aren't hard.

[Hecking_Birb]

17 hours ago, Ketec said:

This whole "skillz" argument is pointless - it's personal taste. And it's often demanded by the PVP players  - in a PVE game.

Even if you have separate mission types - you create a divide where whole chunks of playerbase are cut off from some content - you want to make something everyone would be fine playing.

Most of these niche features are not used because they are not rewarding.
Why bother sniping whole ext in 30 minutes if you can aoe everything in 5 and get the same rewards (junk).

Or why use the complex wall run attack if i can just shoot a bullet 10x faster and with less time wasted.
These special moves need soem kind of modifiers - like temp buff after used, 5x more credits/affinity, more gore etc.

That's the exact mindset I'm trying to push against. A game should require skill, otherwise it doesn't feel nearly as rewarding. You're right, it's so much better to nuke everything right now, but I'm saying we need to slow down players and speed up rewards. That would also help to make wall run attacks more rewarding, as you'll really need to use your entire arsenal.

[(XBOX)DeadFall526]

I find this game to be very challenging. Not everyone is a maxed out super Tenno with every primed mod forma Orokin super Prime ultra gear.!!! I want it to be more user friendly TBH. Im in the middle of casual and hardcore .. Cascore ? Im not agasint a strong end game for dedicated players but at the same time the game needs to be a little more welcoming to newer players. I'm not talking about dumbing thi=hings down I mean more like difficulty scaling and game mechanics, some thing could be easier and I feel they are not simply for the part of being difficult. Hell I cant even get people to join my group so I can finally finish my Uranus relay objective of melee only for 5 missions on Uranus.  Sure I can get someone to face roll it for me no problem but sometimes I like equally leveled players to experience the content as intended, 

 

Christ man, I don't know, how end game is so maybe I shouldn't speak on this I love this game and I even love some of the ambitiousness of it but at the same-time some things need to be more clear, like what am I suppose to be doing. I brought two friends to the game last week one already has stopped playing ( he is quite a smart guy too ) but he says there is just too much things to keep track of. The other, likes the game but I am trying to show her how everything works and I think its overwhelming as hell for her. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by (XB1)DeadFall526

[Hecking_Birb]

16 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm not looking for "skill" in a horde based farming game where efficiency of time spent is highly important.  That doesn't mean i'm fine with "nukes."  I have generally been in favor of DE ramping up player interaction with their kit but still keeping around the same power before the rework.  I feel like DE should cater to those who want a challenge.  But in a seperate section that's on it's own.  Stealth is the only thing im comfortable with saying should be looked into on a broad scale.  mainly making invisibility not as strong.  (I would prefer having units in each faction that can find/detect us while cloaked and mark/decloak us for enemies to attack us.) 

What's the fun in everything just dying effortlessly? No reward feels hard-earned if nothing is hard. It can keep being about hordes, but we should really have to actually deal with hordes.

[Hecking_Birb]

11 hours ago, (XB1)motionROTATION said:

I was actually thinking about the over abundance of energy for a few weeks now. Zenurick trivializes the game and the energy regen should be removed. Then higher content should ban restores. And then, content should be able to be balanced around frames capabilities. Ideally anyway 

But then we can't do high-level content, because abilities are incredibly necessary, and nothing short of a Trinity can really sustain the amount of damage required. These are good ideas, but they need to be worked on later, when they're finally fit to be put in.