A Rework Is In Ordis

[Hecking_Birb]

11 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

Personally, I believe the moment the game started slipping down was the addition of Warframe Corrupted mods. By increasing the range of what abilities can do, it becomes extremely difficult to find a good standard to aim for in regards to how effective they are supposed to be. Make abilities a little bit too strong, that small advantage becomes exaggerated with 200%+ Power Strength, etc. Make it too weak, and it becomes completely unusable unless your build revolves around making it somewhat functional. Even an ability that serves its purpose to a fair degree can be taken to extremes where they effectively negate an entire portion of the game. Not only did it damage the balancing for abilities but it also damaged player builds and Warframe kits in the long run by creating one-trick pony builds where everything is sacrificed to focus on a single ability. It essentially recreated the old problem where Abilities were mods and most people would only slot in 1 or 2 of them in a different manner. The problem only became worse with all the different ways to recharge Energy.

A lot of people want to see better level scaling but I don't think it's possible at this point since all these implementations are irreversible without a massive rework.

Actually, personally, I think corrupted mods should be the only mods for buffing the percentages. They actually are a give and take, and if they're the only ones, then people will have to choose wisely. Rather than remove mods that force you to trade, let's make more abilities depend on more stats to work well.

[Hecking_Birb]

10 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Galatine Prime + Eternal Valkyr + Tempo Royale + turning on Weapon Trail effects in the settings = everything Dynasty Warriors has except for cinematic abilities.

And Warframe wouldn't work with those because the combat is actually faster-paced than it is in Dynasty Warriors and its cousins.

The problem I see is that the Grineer and Corpus have tactics and cover mechanics like Borderlands enemies, but the infested simply rush and attack like Dynasty Warriors, and neither group has their numbers, damage, or rewards balanced for their tactics. We should be facing slightly fewer Grineer, and mostly mechanical Corpus, and a lot more Infested. The Grineer and Corpus should have their affinity values and drop rates/quantities increased along with slightly tankier health/shield values (and less damage from non-eximus grunts) to match the Borderlands 'duck and cover' gameplay aspect that their AI implies. The infested need slightly less damage and far less affinity along with greatly increased enemy density and greatly reduced affinity values and somewhat reduced drop rates/quantities and health values that scale a bit more slowly with levels (but not too slowly) and a greatly reduced number of Ancients on the field at any given time while greatly increasing their health to match the Dynasty Warriors 'horde slaughter' gameplay that their AI implies.

Like I said, it would be difficult for DE to balance both playstyles, to where neither side feels punished by using their playstyle, or that the other side is getting better stuff than they are. This is why they have left things as the mess that they are, because at least both sides aren't getting what they want, and they fight with each other and mostly leave DE out of it (conversations like this not withstanding).

It still just doesn't feel like Dynasty Warriors.

Everything else you said is valid.

[Hecking_Birb]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)DeadFall526 said:

I find this game to be very challenging. Not everyone is a maxed out super Tenno with every primed mod forma Orokin super Prime ultra gear.!!! I want it to be more user friendly TBH. Im in the middle of casual and hardcore .. Cascore ? Im not agasint a strong end game for dedicated players but at the same time the game needs to be a little more welcoming to newer players. I'm not talking about dumbing thi=hings down I mean more like difficulty scaling and game mechanics, some thing could be easier and I feel they are not simply for the part of being difficult. Hell I cant even get people to join my group so I can finally finish my Uranus relay objective of melee only for 5 missions on Uranus.  Sure I can get someone to face roll it for me no problem but sometimes I like equally leveled players to experience the content as intended, 

 

Christ man, I don't know, how end game is so maybe I shouldn't speak on this I love this game and I even love some of the ambitiousness of it but at the same-time some things need to be more clear, like what am I suppose to be doing. I brought two friends to the game last week one already has stopped playing ( he is quite a smart guy too ) but he says there is just too much things to keep track of. The other, likes the game but I am trying to show her how everything works and I think its overwhelming as hell for her. 

The early game is the only part of the game that actually holds challenge. That part of the game will actually probably continue to feel just about the same. I'm talking more mid- to end-game changes.

Also, a personal tip, do NOT overwhelm newcomers. Tell them exclusively what they need to know to progress. Build things, kill things, build more things, go to new nodes. Simple stuff. Let them decide when they're ready for the other stuff.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I don't know if you're running for office, but you got my vote either way

[(XBOX)DeadFall526]

36 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

Also, a personal tip, do NOT overwhelm newcomers.

I agree and I have. She asked me about mods and polarity and I told her just level your Warframe, get familiar with game modes, and your skills, do quests.. That will come later. 

[Hecking_Birb]

Just now, (XB1)DeadFall526 said:

I agree and I have. She asked me about mods and polarity and I told her just level your Warframe, get familiar with game modes, and your skills, do quests.. That will come later. 

g u d

[Talonflight]

So, yesterday I just posted here half-asleep, but I took some time, thought about it, slept, and came back.

 

Its definitely true. People constantly use words like "horde shooter" and "power fantasy" to describe warframe. And thats exactly what it is; a fantasy. Early game when you've just started the starchart, things can feel difficult, I'm sure, but once you gain access to the Void and Derelicts, the players powers spiral rapidly out of control to the point where they trivialize anything that isn't a sortie. Once the player discovers Riven mods and begins actually picking and choosing where to farm instead of just "doing the next mission", they'll quickly find that even Sorties are trivialized. And once they begin delving into Cetus crafting and Operators and such, the balance is so far broken that there's literally nothing left for anyone to enjoy. 

There's been constant drive for "more content" and "more damage with mroe weapons" that no one stopped to consider whether or not there was any NEED for more damage. 80% of the weapons in the game are considered "Mastery Fodder" because no one bothers to learn them or play with them because for the moment no one gives a damn about anything except "nuke the map RIGHT NOW so I can run the mission 12 more times, the enemies cant kill us anyway unless we're in the final sortie solo'ing."

I've been playing this game for a long time. Throughout the community there's a constant cry of "there is no endgame" and "there is no difficulty". DE's made some mistakes in answer to that; DE's response to players with massive resource vaults was to make massive time and resource requirements, instead of making your choices matter. 

Ironically enough this sentiment seems to get ENTIRELY FORGOTTEN about as soon as DE tries to nerf anything, because at this point, everyone's been playing warframe for so long with broken powers and far-too-strong weapons. THey've become USED to the massive time sinks and massive resource sinks, and of course EVERYONE wants their rewards as soon as possible. I know I do. So, they play to the meta, with farm-based frames and the old spin-to-win meta that DE cracked down on with Melee 3.0.  They cry for endgame, yet when DE actually introduces a difficulty spike, the response isn't "I'll have to play better and work harder" its "DE WHY ARE YOU NERFING MY AFK MELEE FARM NOW IT'LL TAKE ME 3 YEARS TO GATHER RESOURCES". Meanwhile if they used a GUN instead of a sword they could easily achieve the same DP and killspeed if they put effort into gameplay. 

The saddest part is, thats why Veterans keep leaving Warframe. Its why many of them don't log in except to get their daily reward, and then log back out. Its why plenty of them dont play except when new content comes out. Games are fun because you play AGAINST something; if its PvE, you play against the computer. If its PvP, you play against people. It isn't a question of PvP or PvE, its a question of "am I playing a shooter with melee elements and parkour, or am I playing walking simulator with Ember's 4 on?"

We need a nerf. The AI needs to be smarter. Enemy factions need to be diversified and kept in line with their themes; military tactics for Grineer, robotic mainstream for Corpus, and Horde Overwhelm with occasional big-boy for Infested. 

I'm a veteran. I could have been a founder, if I'd had money. I LOVE this game. I buy plat all the time because I want to support the dev's. But I'm tired.

[Hecking_Birb]

9 minutes ago, Talonflight said:

So, yesterday I just posted here half-asleep, but I took some time, thought about it, slept, and came back.

(just quoting this part because the rest is long)
You've put it damn well, brochacho. I really do hope DE sees this thread, because I feel we've funneled a lot of great ideas, suggestions, and outlook into one easy-to-access spot. Thanks for your contribution.

[Talonflight]

4 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

(just quoting this part because the rest is long)
You've put it damn well, brochacho. I really do hope DE sees this thread, because I feel we've funneled a lot of great ideas, suggestions, and outlook into one easy-to-access spot. Thanks for your contribution.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Ironically, I, too, expected the undying rage and flames of people like "BUT MUH FARM EFFICIENCY" and "No #*!% you this is a horde shooter."

[MirageKnight]

21 hours ago, Hecking_Birb said:

The game needs more challenge so that players are actually engaged and require real brain work to succeed, but the game can still keep a lot of its stuff, if in a weaker or stronger state.

Agreed. I think arguably the best way to offer challenge is to:

• Reel in the insane bonuses given by damage mods.
• Raise HP of enemy mooks to levels to something close to the HP of a fully ranked but unmodded Frame...and cap it there. Enemy heavies and commander units (not bosses) should be double that.
• Change mission levels and difficulties by removing scaling EHP and damage for enemies. Instead, on low levels, you face like maybe a platoon of enemies (35) at most, all scattered around, to deal with and then mostly mooks with regular weapons and odd commander unit. On really high levels, you face the equivalent of a division, complete with large numbers of regular troops, and a proportionality higher number of commanders and heavy weapon specialists - all of which can and will overwhelm you with sheer weight of numbers and overwhelming firepower. In addition, AI and grouping behavior would improve with mission difficulty as well.

Challenge is when you face a force that is quite capable of defeating you en mass, but could be overcome by skillful use of weapons and abilities. No, shutting down enemies with wide AoE CC abilities and then gunning them down with OP weapons is NOT challenging. It's boring.

Honestly, if all enemies had solid, unchanging stats, the game would be far easier to balance as everything would be clearly defined and consistent.

The one thing that annoys me the most is that the Grineer Lancer I might run into on Mercury is a complete joke compared to a Lancer I might run into on Sedna.

Yes, I want Warframe to be far less of a Horde shooter and a more nuanced / skill based tactical dungeon crawler. No, I won't apologize for that.

[Talonflight]

Sadly, due to this being in General DIscussion, as well as the title of the thread, most people are likely to pass it by as a simple rage thread. FeelsBadMan.

[Hecking_Birb]

16 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

 

• Raise HP of enemy mooks to levels to something close to the HP of a fully ranked but unmodded Frame...and cap it there. Enemy heavies and commander units (not bosses) should be double that.

This part in particular would require most weapons to undergo a damage nerf. A hefty one, too. Could be neat, though.

rest is cool and good

Edited May 24, 2018 by Hecking_Birb

[Hecking_Birb]

1 minute ago, Talonflight said:

Sadly, due to this being in General DIscussion, as well as the title of the thread, most people are likely to pass it by as a simple rage thread. FeelsBadMan.

heck

what should it be called?

Edited May 24, 2018 by Hecking_Birb

[Talonflight]

13 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

heck

what should it be called?

Man, I have no clue.

"The necessary Nerf" or something, I honestly dont know.

[Hecking_Birb]

3 minutes ago, Talonflight said:

Man, I have no clue.

"The necessary Nerf" or something, I honestly dont know.

How's this?

[RX-3DR]

5 hours ago, Hecking_Birb said:

Actually, personally, I think corrupted mods should be the only mods for buffing the percentages. They actually are a give and take, and if they're the only ones, then people will have to choose wisely. Rather than remove mods that force you to trade, let's make more abilities depend on more stats to work well.

It goes back to the same problems I initially highlighted. By making powers a give or take system, by adding to one ability, you take away from others which goes back to the old problems where you basically don't ever use more than the few select abilities you're building for. Many eons ago, this problem was created by having abilities take mod slots so people would simply build for a few stats and ignore 2 ~ 3 abilities. Now, this problem still exists to some degree where people who build for say, Range and Strength at the expense of Duration end up in a situation where any ability that uses Duration is now completely useless.

The other being that the range of Corrupted mods on top of basic mods is simply too large. Corrupted mods often scale on larger numbers and that results in large variability. Stacking Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude and Intensify is one of the biggest offenders to this. If abilities are ever reworked to do sensible damage that would maybe chip away 1/4 ~ 1/2 of a level 100 Bombard, that combination would allow Banshee's Soundquake to just sweep a map of level 150 enemies with 300% Power Strength.

Some abilities are too simple that they can't really make use of certain stats to any reasonable degree, others are too specific to function that even if they used additional stats, they would just be ignored for that aspect anyways. It's going to be a difficult slog to try to shoehorn stats like Duration to instant effect abilities and eventually, you risk complicating the terms as Duration would no longer mean Duration in many instances. At worst, it would be a sort of paradoxical solution where adding a Corrupted mod is the only way to improve stats but it would end up harming a part of the ability so badly, that you would almost be better off not having the mod. It would mean that the only stat you can penalize without harming abilities, is Efficiency. That just results in more reliance on Zenurik/Energy Restores. The potential risk of this collapsing hard is too widespread because it will involve a lot of moving parts.

 

Thinking about it, a potential solution at this point is to make ability mods like Bullet Jump mods and only allow you one per stat. You would get rid of the problem where people are stacking tons of ability mods to try to boost up stats even higher or offset penalties, which returns them that slot to use other mods like ability augments. It would also open the door to buffing up the basic stats since you don't have to worry about a 300% Strength Mesa auto-aiming through level 300 enemies as an unintended side effect to making Peacemaker stronger at its base. Of course, people would get upset over this change because it "spoils their perfect build", and by perfect build, I mean, cheese meta build.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Flandyrll

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

On 2018-05-22 at 11:27 PM, Hecking_Birb said:

I can't tell if this is... did it make you laugh, or does it seem silly to you? This reaction is really general

I love when I can actually imagine somebody talking behind what they typed.. You have a voice on the internet.

[Hecking_Birb]

1 hour ago, Flandyrll said:

Thinking about it, a potential solution at this point is to make ability mods like Bullet Jump mods and only allow you one per stat. You would get rid of the problem where people are stacking tons of ability mods to try to boost up stats even higher or offset penalties, which returns them that slot to use other mods like ability augments. It would also open the door to buffing up the basic stats since you don't have to worry about a 300% Strength Mesa auto-aiming through level 300 enemies as an unintended side effect to making Peacemaker stronger at its base. Of course, people would get upset over this change because it "spoils their perfect build", and by perfect build, I mean, cheese meta build.

This part is a good suggestion. Better than your previous ones and mine.

[Hecking_Birb]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Evilpricetag said:

I love when I can actually imagine somebody talking behind what they typed.. You have a voice on the internet.

I always try to type like I talk. It tells you more about who I am, y'know?

[kgabor]

3 hours ago, Talonflight said:

It isn't a question of PvP or PvE, its a question of "am I playing a shooter with melee elements and parkour, or am I playing walking simulator with Ember's 4 on?"

True, i played PvE that had challenging mechanics f.ex. in Warface at the highest difficulties the bots can instaaggro and instakill you the moment they see you, you get these enemies constantly for hours in the longest special operations and you have to deal with them while you have to split your attention to other things, also team support matters.

Compare it to Warframe where they line up in a konga line just waiting for the lemming train to get oneshot with a weapon that has some punchthrough stat and you just wait out the clock.

Not the best example to set for DE because it's a p2w and truly grindy game if you want to progress at all plus has its own problems but it's challenging and fun and doesn't have bullet sponges to raise difficulty. (at least not that serious, some heavy units take two headshots to kill with the strongest snipers but there is no bs scaling that makes your weapons entirely useless)

The PvE part of Team Fortress is also somewhat more challenging, even if it relies entirely on artificial difficulty, you don't have any meta that trivializes the mission.

I checked up on some videos about how the Stalker games were made and how much effort they put on refining the AI and i'm sure in 2018 a game dev team such as DE could make an AI that's at least something close to that of a game made in 2007.

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

On 2018-05-22 at 11:16 PM, Hecking_Birb said:

We abuse Large Team Energy Restores and Zenurik's Energizing Dash because it's just too damn hard to get energy without them, and too damn hard to survive without abilities.

As a consistent Prime Access buyer I consider the bonuses a 'membership' and have little reason to use sentinals specifically for Vacuum. Vacuum debate is trash. The heavy f2p community does need this mod to survive though, I dont think it deserves a buff or universal commodity, as I specifically enjoy not having it for the reason:

If I only need 1-24 energy to max, vacuum consumes all energy orbs the moment you need 1 energy.

Farming in unnecessary with Smeeta and double resources... quad.. rare hexa drop rates... all good. Control of energy is important and I dont need Zenurik because of Smeeta's doubling energy pickup or Sahasa's relatively consistent Energy dig's. (also digs health when needed allowing Health Conversion mod to be semi useful outside of Nekros)

On 2018-05-22 at 11:16 PM, Hecking_Birb said:

Passive abilities generally tend to suck, like Rhino's and Banshee's, with only a few good ones, like Chroma's, Harrow's, and Nidus'.

Overall agree, aside from Nidus heal, the rest of his 'passive' is just part of his kit, you couldn't apply his passive onto any other warframe and make it work, where as most other passives would be interchangeable given console commands could do so. I particularly enjoy running Ash' specifically to push slash to its limit even further, his passive is above par, but is only aided by the fact slash is meta, as stated previously before said quote.

 

On 2018-05-22 at 11:16 PM, Hecking_Birb said:

Corrosive, Viral, Radiation, and Slash are nigh-necessary for an endgame build.

Will comment anyways: I enjoy that gas is incredibly important against corpus, but all the nulifieing nerfs due to complains, only make the meta elements even more universal, because otherwise corpus would make the game:

 

On 2018-05-22 at 11:16 PM, Hecking_Birb said:

too damn hard to survive without abilities

 

 

Decent read.

  I find myself in recent times, just using Ankyros Prime, on Hydroid Prime, no survival mods (health, armor, shields). Game is much more fun with limitations. Keep imagining I'm fighting my way up to fight Mike Tyson's Punch Out.... Its to bad I really want FrameFighter to have a more semi-serious roll in integrated gameplay, special bosses that you must fight either hand-to-hand or with your melee in a Mortal Combat style. Giving melee a reason to have real combo setups.

[Hecking_Birb]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Evilpricetag said:

As a consistent Prime Access buyer I consider the bonuses a 'membership' and have little reason to use sentinals specifically for Vacuum. Vacuum debate is trash. The heavy f2p community does need this mod to survive though, I dont think it deserves a buff or universal commodity, as I specifically enjoy not having it for the reason:

If I only need 1-24 energy to max, vacuum consumes all energy orbs the moment you need 1 energy.

Farming in unnecessary with Smeeta and double resources... quad.. rare hexa drop rates... all good. Control of energy is important and I dont need Zenurik because of Smeeta's doubling energy pickup or Sahasa's relatively consistent Energy dig's. (also digs health when needed allowing Health Conversion mod to be semi useful outside of Nekros)

Overall agree, aside from Nidus heal, the rest of his 'passive' is just part of his kit, you couldn't apply his passive onto any other warframe and make it work, where as most other passives would be interchangeable given console commands could do so. I particularly enjoy running Ash' specifically to push slash to its limit even further, his passive is above par, but is only aided by the fact slash is meta, as stated previously before said quote.

 

Will comment anyways: I enjoy that gas is incredibly important against corpus, but all the nulifieing nerfs due to complains, only make the meta elements even more universal, because otherwise corpus would make the game:

 

 

 

Decent read.

  I find myself in recent times, just using Ankyros Prime, on Hydroid Prime, no survival mods (health, armor, shields). Game is much more fun with limitations. Keep imagining I'm fighting my way up to fight Mike Tyson's Punch Out.... Its to bad I really want FrameFighter to have a more semi-serious roll in integrated gameplay, special bosses that you must fight either hand-to-hand or with your melee in a Mortal Combat style. Giving melee a reason to have real combo setups.

You're a special breed I never really see. The type to actively seek out challenge, even if it means limiting yourself on purpose. I like you.

Your vacuum point is valid, as it does in fact absorb every energy orb possible even when barely needed, and that's bad.

Farming is, in fact, easier w/ Smeeta and double resources, but maybe I just want all the utility of a sentinel and don't have the plat for resource boosters. Valid point though.

Yeah, the Nidus bonus is really integrated, no interchangeability there. It's not really the same point, but Harrow's overshields bonus wouldn't do much of anything on any other frame save for maybe Mag or Trinity, since most frames can't naturally or augment-edly generate overshields.

Nullifiers need to keep existing. Heckin' DE needs to stop nerfing fair challenges. Also, forgot about Gas. Gas is helpful, definitely.

[Vilemyre]

On 2018-05-23 at 5:34 AM, Hecking_Birb said:

You know what Dynasty Warriors has that Warframe doesn't? Men with giant swords knocking a bunch of weak soldiers around like plush toys, racking up massive and satisfying combos and seeing glorious visual effects. Warframe just has numbers. Numbers are great, but visual effects are better.

Galatine Prime and Chroma

All you need now is the visual effects.

[Hecking_Birb]

Just now, VermillionScourge said:

Galatine Prime and Chroma

All you need now is the visual effects.

Galatine Prime has been mentioned twice now. We still can't quite match what Dynasty Warriors offers.

[Vilemyre]

Just now, Hecking_Birb said:

Galatine Prime has been mentioned twice now. We still can't quite match what Dynasty Warriors offers.

Oh not just Galatine Prime but Galatine Prime with the dynasty heavy blade skin. I'm not kidding the thing is huge.

But you have a point some of the weapons in dynasty warriors are kind of ridiculous.