[DE]Danielle

Dev Workshop: Spores Revisited (Saryn)

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What about skills of other warframes working with Saryn's spores becouse right now we have a situation where most aoe skills like Volt's Discharge or Equinox's last ability in day form, instead of helping spores spread they just destroy them ? 

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Personally I would prefer Spores that kill an enemy spread to only one enemy on death, keeping the number of infected constant

but this is not the worst rebalance

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Good so far, but lets see what 

21 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

We’ll be updating the workshop with new information and changes to Spores as they come up.

will bring.

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16 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores’ damage growth over time per Spore is now determined per enemy infected. And with it, a max limit of 10 infected enemies to maintain a max damage growth limit over time. To better explain this change and how it all breaks down, let’s explore it further by comparing its current state to its changed state:

Does this mean we can only have only have 10 enemies infected, period? Or is 10 targets required to achieve the max damage tick rate? 

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22 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

a max limit of 10 infected enemies to maintain a max damage growth limit over time

I'd interpret that to mean you can infect no more than 10 enemies at once, which does seem a little bit low. It would be nice if DE could clarify this though.

I definitely understand keeping damage growth capped, but if they're going to cap the amount of enemies infected 20 or even 15 seems like it would be better to maintain Saryn's usefulness as a debuffer. Or maybe a base 10 ten enemies, but affected by range mods.

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7 minutes ago, Weltraumfred said:

well that looks nice

Edited to add:

I am not sure if you can infect max 10 enemies at a time, OR if the growth maxes out at 10 enemies, and you can infect more enemies. Could you clarify that?

Number of infected is uncapped, only the damage increase per second is capped.

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il y a 6 minutes, Weepin a dit :

The max number of infected being at 10 is going to hurt.

other changes are all really nice.

will have to see how it plays out.

I don't think it mean that spores won't be able to infect more than 10 targets but the damage growth factor won't be affected by more than 10 targets.

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7 minutes ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

By the looks of it , i definitely like the option to recast without detonation so as to hit multiple mobs/groups in different areas and ranges.

The range changes are very welcome too

@[DE]Danielle

The damage growth capped at 10 enemies infected means we can have even 50 enemies infected by only 10 are going to contribute to the ramp up damage right ? Not that we'll also have MAX 10 enemies spored right ?

 

Slowed down to reread that part it seem their context is you can spore more then 10 enemies at once but only those 10 will contribute to the ramp up as what it is now is ramp up per each enemy spored 

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why recasted spores are weaker? why not just make them same as the first ones? the scaling speed cap will already hurt its damage potential enough, at least let us spread that damage reliably. also i'd much prefer if targets died from spore tics did had a nerfed range for spreading the spores rather than outright removing it. 

Edited by Zeclem
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I can see the idea behind this, but the cap on spore damage ramp is incredibly low and needs to either be far higher per enemy or have a far higher cap, likely both, in order to not slow Saryn down massively. Being a little slower since you can keep your buildup is fine, but that's more than a little heavy handed. Ability strength scaling won't save that - even with 300% strength, that's still 6 per enemy to a maximum of 10 enemies, which is not good in the slightest.

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4 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

why recasted spores are weaker? why not just make them same as the first ones? the scaling speed cap will already hurt its damage potential enough, at least let us spread that damage reliably. also i'd much prefer if targets died from spore tics did had a nerfed range for spreading the spores rather than outright removing it. 

I guess its due to the fact that the damage no longer instantly vanishes, just decays over time if there are no spores currently affecting anything. Depending on the speed at which the decay happens you have time to reinfect another group of enemies. I think the cap is too low on paper. Will have to see it demoed to get  the verdict.

Edited by (PS4)VariantX7

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1 minute ago, CommanderDC said:

I can see the idea behind this, but the cap on spore damage ramp is incredibly low and needs to either be far higher per enemy or have a far higher cap, likely both, in order to not slow Saryn down massively. Being a little slower since you can keep your buildup is fine, but that's more than a little heavy handed. Ability strength scaling won't save that - even with 300% strength, that's still 6 per enemy to a maximum of 10 enemies, which is not good in the slightest.

The number of infected is still uncapped just the ramp up is only taking into account 10 of them 

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7 minutes ago, [DE]Pablo said:

Number of infected is uncapped, only the damage increase per second is capped.

Hi pablo Hope your days going good 😄

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Awesome, reasonable changes that didn't gut her

Now if only the Ember feedback could actually get looked at, so she could get some survivability past "bullet jump n00b". Yes... every frame can bullet jump, that's not survivability in their kit...

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1 minute ago, (PS4)VariantX7 said:

I guess its due to the fact that the damage no longer instantly vanishes, just decays over time if there are no spores currently affecting anything. Depending on the speed at which the decay happens you have time to reinfect another group of enemies.

if that damage will never be able to get to reasonable levels, that really wont help much. and considering that its already hard for her to build that damage up as the current mechanics are outside of eso, these changes wont help her out there at all, especially that recasted spores doing less damage. 

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Yes, I did say 'cap on spore damage ramp' rather than infected count. The growth rate is really bad as it currently stands. The rest I'd need to see before judging, I think.

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My clan was worried about nerfs, but this sounds pretty okay... though, won't know for sure until it ships, of course.

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29 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

When a Spore’s tick damage kills an enemy

8m

NA*

Please don't! Leave this part as it is as enemies tend to spawn not enough at some areas and we cannot be EVERYWHERE on the map at same time.

31 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

per enemy infected by Spores every second up to a maximum of 10 enemies

That looks like a huge nerf in damage output...

Main problem of Saryn is when enemies die and have too big spawn delay so no enemies to put spores on.

 

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33 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

(If you’re just learning about Saryn’s “Revisiting”, this is a follow up of the original workshop changes that went live in update 22.20.0)

If you’re a frequent workshop peruser, you might recall this bold 16 font-size section in the original Saryn Revisited 2.0 dev workshop thread:

Well, here we are! We’re coming up on a week of having reworked Saryn on PC, and it’s clear from what we’ve been reading in your feedback that you’ve all been busy testing her new kit. At the forefront of this workshop is Saryn’s Spores - Being the more drastically modified ability in the first iteration, change was to be anticipated!

In this workshop we’ll aim to break down the changes to Spores coming in a future PC update. Feedback is welcomed and encouraged as long as it comes in its most constructive of forms. And yup, you guessed it! Everything you read below is subject to change prior to and after launch. 

So let’s get into it! Here’s what we’re looking at changing with Spores.

  • Can be re-cast while active and will no longer detonate all active Spores:
     
    • Based on feedback, detonating on recast felt like an unnatural transition from Saryn’s original makeup. So in an effort to maintain her roots, we’ve removed the detonate mechanic on recast so that Spores can be cast onto multiple targets.

      With this came the need to find a space where Spores’ escalating damage and its reinstated recast “sans detonation” can live harmoniously together. That said, recasting on infected enemies will put new Spores on a target with a 20% decrease to its periodic damage for 50% of the Energy cost.
  • Fixed inconsistent spreading ranges:

    • The most common report we received requested we look the seemingly inconsistent spreading nature of Spores. After rummaging around in the code for an answer, we discovered an unintended mechanic that determined range based on the specific action taken (we’ll call this “spread condition”).

      Currently, if you do anything other than directly shoot a Spore or hit (but not kill) an enemy while Toxic Lash is active, the range is half of its intended value. In order to fix these inconsistencies, we’ve removed this mechanic and established a new standard base range across the board regardless of spread condition: 

    • Spread Condition

      Old Base Range

      New Base Range

      When shooting a Spore

      16m

      16m

      When hitting (but not killing) an enemy with Toxic Lash active

      16m

      16m

      When killing an enemy with or without Toxic Lash on

      8m

      16m

      When an ally kills an enemy

      8m

      16m

      When a Spore’s tick damage kills an enemy

      8m

      NA*

      *We’ve outright removed spread on enemies that die to a Spore’s tick damage. Being the only wholly passive way to spread Spores, it allowed for that “set it and forget it” play style we were trying combat with Saryn in the original workshop. 

  • Spores’ damage growth over time per Spore is now determined per enemy infected. And with it, a max limit of 10 infected enemies to maintain a max damage growth limit over time. To better explain this change and how it all breaks down, let’s explore it further by comparing its current state to its changed state:
     
    • Current: Damage growth is determined per Spore, so 1 damage per Spore every second. For example, let’s say there are 5 enemies. You cast Spores on one of the enemies in that group. 3 Spores are now active on that enemy. Damaging that enemy with Toxic Lash disperses a single Spore to the surrounding 4 enemies for a grand total of 7 Spores (4 enemies with a single Spore + the 3 original Spores on cast). This maintains a damage growth of 7 damage every second. 
       
    • Changed: Damage growth is determined per enemy infected, so 2 damage (can be modded with Ability Strength) per enemy infected by Spores every second up to a maximum of 10 enemies. So, using that same example, 5 infected enemies would set the damage growth to 10 damage every second (Modded damage growth of x * # of enemies infected up to 10). Reaching 10 infected enemies would set the maximum damage growth at 20 every second.
      • For the sake of best describing the intent of this change, we’d like to point out some of the unexpected irony between both workshops. While work on Saryn began very early on this year, the first assumption was that change was amidst her performance in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. What actually ended up transpiring (post rework) was quite the opposite. Saryn as she is now continues to take charge in Onslaught (more so now than before). However, she’s a bit of a “one cast wonder” in Simaris’ realm. Sitting back and watching Spores destroy a map didn’t fall in line with that fun factor we were looking for with Saryn, and especially not for the other members in Saryn squads.
         
  • Damage per second will “decay” (decrease over time) instead of vanishing once no infected enemies remain: 
    • First, the periodic damage you’ve accumulated will instantly drop by 20%, which will then commence the decay of the remaining damage by 10% per second (can be modded with Duration).
    • Decaying can be observed in the periodic damage meter located above Saryn’s ability icons. 
    • Nullifying effects (including Data-Conduits) increases the decay by 30% per second.

We’ll be updating the workshop with new information and changes to Spores as they come up. Thank you for your feedback!

How will spores interact with Toxic Lash's Contagion Cloud?  Will they also pop spores? 

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I'd suggest that Spores would be able to passively spread for 1 generation.  Just so that if you cast it on an enemy that ends up dying in the first tick interval because someone shot it, but failed to kill it during the casting animation, it's not a wasted use of power; perhaps have it only spread a single spore to a single enemy in range.

 

In addition to, or even alternatively, have an augment that increases the generations the spores can have for killing enemies via Spore damage; perhaps in exchange for damage and/or range and/or status chance?

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Maybe an idea for a Spore Augment; Dormancy: the last remaining spore does not tick damage. In order to keep the damage high?

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the growth may be a bit slow but will have to see in practice.

I'll be honest, I was abusing the set and camp method with Saryn in elite. But that became so boring I actually started spreading actively with lash. So its great that that is now more the direction the rework goes towards.

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